3.5 - Small, Maddening Tank Build Difficulties

[Tr0users]

Hi all! I come searching for assistance in the character I'm attempting to build. I'm going for a small tank that uses small people feats (Giantbane, Confound the Big Folk, Underfoot Combat, possibly Titan Fighting) and wands of Reduce and Enlarge Person to gain cover, dodge bonuses to AC, to clamber about on opponents, deflect attacks onto my opponents, and to generally be a bloody pest. The best way of achieving this is unclear to me.

I've given a lot of consideration to Swordsage. It adds my Wisdom to AC, and Setting Sun includes several maneuvers advantageous to small characters, and has two or three that would allow him to redirect attacks made against him onto enemies. Frankly, it does a lot of the things that I want to do. My only issue is how to actually... tank. I need a way to convince things to try to hit me. The Goad feat seems like the obvious options, but this character already wants high Dex, Con, and Wis - possibly a bit in Int too, if I want to make use of Combat Expertise (feat) when I'm Underfoot Defending (CtBF). Goad would need a high Cha on top of all that in order to be effective, so that's a problem. One possibility is a level in Crusader, in order to get Iron Guard Glare (stance) and Defensive Rebuke (maneuver) (although one issue I'm having is finding some way of making attacks of opportunity that don't suck). Adaptive Style (feat) will be necessary for this build

Focusing on being a Crusader is another option. It doesn't have the bonus to AC, and the maneuvers aren't as interesting to me, but it does have the control elements mentioned above, and it would make Goad more feasible. I could reverse the ratio, and take an accompanying level in Swordsage in order to at least get some of the maneuvers I want.

Factotum. I already have a factotum, so I'm slightly less inclined to do this, although I do enjoy the class a lot. It solves the problem of needing too many high ability scores by allowing you to pile everything into Int. Brains over Brawn would be helpful for tripping with Unsteady Footing (CtBF) or opportunity attacks. One or two levels of Swordsage and/or Crusader would give me useful stuff to do with Cunning Surge... Factotum also makes Iaijutsu Focus (skill) a possibility. Plenty of Font of Inspiration (feat), obviously.

One issue with all the maneuvers in CtBF is the problem of having to move into a square occupied by an opponent, and still be in a square occupied by that opponent on your turn one round later. If your opponent moves during its turn then your maneuver is shagged! A partial solution comes via the Climb Aboard maneuver in Giantbane, but it only solves the problem if you can persuade an enemy to stay adjacent to you for a round. The favourite solution to this seems to be the Stand Still (feat), Thicket of Blades (Crusader stance) combo. That's fine unless you're a small guy who has no real way of dealing any halfway decent damage on an attack of opportunity. So I'm interested in ways to gain decent opportunity attack damage, and any other methods of remaining adjacent to enemies.

I see a couple more classes that might be worth a dip for a couple levels: Monk (Hin Disciple (Halfling substitution levels)) 1 and 2 gives Underfoot Combat, and a choice between Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip as bonus feats. Fighter offers Goad, Giantbane, Titan Fighting (and the Dodge pre-req), Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip as bonus feats.

So, basically, as usual, I'm having a difficult time smashing all this together in the most effective way. This may be because I've been trying too hard to focus on Swordsage, which may be the least efficient of the classes mentioned for this. I'm interested to know how you guys would do it. What's the best way to resolve the issues mentioned above? Is there anything I've missed that fits the concept of a small man scuttling around on bigger creatures, giving them large quantities of grief like a ferret up the trouser leg, while they injure themselves trying to make him stop?

Hope someone here can bring some order to my chaos. Cheers!

[Cerefel]

In 3.5 the most common way to be a dedicated tank is through crowd control like tripping/grappling/etc. so the only character your enemies can attack is yours, if any. If you intend to make your character a real nuisance, you should seriously consider ways to force people into either attacking you or doing nothing.

[Tr0users]

Aye. I've come up with a few methods. There's tripping, which has the slight issue of a -4 penalty for small creatures. Improved Trip would make up for that. Unsteady Footing removes any size bonuses that my opponent might have, and also lets me use Dex to trip, but you can't use it on an attack of opportunity, which is when I'll need to trip most. It could work with a Factotum build, with Brains Over Brawn adding Int to the strength check, but I think it would be a difficult tactic to work into either Swordsage or Crusader because of the high strength requirement and the inevitable small size strength penalty.

Then there's Stand Still, for people who want to do the job of a tripper without needing a high Str. Irritatingly, it does have a Str 13 pre-req, so the stat can't be dumped altogether. I'd also need to find ways to do decent damage with an attack of opportunity, which isn't easy with Tome of Battle maneuvers, as the damaging ones tend to require a standard action to perform. Again, I can easily see it working for the Factotum, with all the extra damage he can apply to his basic attacks.

There's Goad, which, under normal circumstances (unless you have a way of gaining extra move actions (which, actually, the Factotum does)), can only be used to control a maximum of two enemies per round. Also, it needs a high Cha score to be effective, so would only really work with the Crusader or Factotum.

Finally, Crusader has one or two things that can supposedly persuade enemies to attack you. These are Iron Guard Glare and Defensive Rebuke. These can work with any of the classes I'm interested in, as long as I take a level of Crusader to get them in the first place. Defensive Rebuke gets more effective the more damage you deal with attacks of opportunity, though, so, again, might work best with the Factotum.

[TheCrowing1432]

Tanking in 3.5 is really difficult as theres no real way to Taunt enemies. Of the few that exist, they are mind affecting or charisma based, both of which a lot of enemies can either save against or be completely immune to.


Another problem is if you're TOO good a tank. The enemies will then decide to hit everyone else, leaving you the last one standing.

Furthermore, being small gives you a lot of minuses, so effective stun tactics like tripping, become disadvantages, even with feats helping.

[Tr0users]

That pretty much summarises the issue, yes. I think there are ways to make this work, though. Obviously, I realise that the character is already sub-optimal for tanking, being small, but, as an example, the Factotum class feature Brains Over Brawn allows you to add your Int bonus to Str and Dex ability checks (and the Factotum lets you add Int to all sorts of other things like attack, damage, AC, saves, etc, so you can get away with focusing heavily on Int without turning the character into one who can't do anything that isn't Int based), so with a bit of investment a small Factotum could make a decent tripper. Then, with Stand Still, you can all but entirely eliminate the tripping penalties for being small - you deal slightly less damage, so the Stand Still save DC will be slightly lower, but not much - particularly if you're a dex based combatant.

I think I can make something reasonable out of this. The trick will be figuring out the best combination of class levels. The more I think about it, the more Factotum looks like a good thing to have - at least three levels, for Brains Over Brawn, and possibly eight levels for Cunning Surge. I'll probably take at least a level each of Swordsage and Crusader. The question is what to accompany those with.

[Troacctid]

You can also count as one size larger with Wary Swordknight paladin substitution levels.

[daremetoidareyo]

That pretty much summarises the issue, yes. I think there are ways to make this work, though. Obviously, I realise that the character is already sub-optimal for tanking, being small, but, as an example, the Factotum class feature Brains Over Brawn allows you to add your Int bonus to Str and Dex ability checks (and the Factotum lets you add Int to all sorts of other things like attack, damage, AC, saves, etc, so you can get away with focusing heavily on Int without turning the character into one who can't do anything that isn't Int based), so with a bit of investment a small Factotum could make a decent tripper. Then, with Stand Still, you can all but entirely eliminate the tripping penalties for being small - you deal slightly less damage, so the Stand Still save DC will be slightly lower, but not much - particularly if you're a dex based combatant.

I think I can make something reasonable out of this. The trick will be figuring out the best combination of class levels. The more I think about it, the more Factotum looks like a good thing to have - at least three levels, for Brains Over Brawn, and possibly eight levels for Cunning Surge. I'll probably take at least a level each of Swordsage and Crusader. The question is what to accompany those with.

There isn't any taunt function. But there is a combat theft option, which has a very similar effect. Master pickpocket from city of stormreach. Pimp out that sleight of hand, and free action pick out spell components from spell component pouches, steal wands and potions off of belts, or handfulls of ammunition. The infuriation through combat theft method is helpful for any non-naked non-animal/vermin.

[ShurikVch]

In case DM actually allow to use "Flaws for Commoners" (Dragon #330), Delicious flaw cause monsters to attack you no matter what
And that article have another flaw - Weresheep, which is under effect of Delicious flaw too - in animal or hybrid form
Besides that, you will get Shapechanger subtype, claw and bite natural attacks, +2 natural AC, +2 Dex/Con/Wis, DR 5(10?)/silver, Low-Light Vision, Scent, Alertness and Iron Will feats
(also Curse of Lycanthropy, Lycanthropic Empathy, and Stampede, but you're likely will never use it)
Aren't bad for a flaw (and you still get a feat for it! :smallamused:)

[Tr0users]

You can also count as one size larger with Wary Swordknight paladin substitution levels.

This would be useful, but I'm not sure about taking three levels of Paladin for it. Maybe I'm not appreciating its full potential?


Master pickpocket from city of stormreach.

Seems a little situational, but I love it! It sounds like a perfect fit for this character concept. I don't have anything called City of Stormreach, though, and I can't find a full description of the feat on Google. Could you tell me exactly what it does, and what the pre-reqs are?


In case DM actually allow to use "Flaws for Commoners" (Dragon #330), Delicious flaw cause monsters to attack you no matter what
And that article have another flaw - Weresheep, which is under effect of Delicious flaw too - in animal or hybrid form
Besides that, you will get Shapechanger subtype, claw and bite natural attacks, +2 natural AC, +2 Dex/Con/Wis, DR 5(10?)/silver, Low-Light Vision, Scent, Alertness and Iron Will feats
(also Curse of Lycanthropy, Lycanthropic Empathy, and Stampede, but you're likely will never use it)
Aren't bad for a flaw (and you still get a feat for it! )

This sounds stupidly good! I just saw the Confound the Big Folk and Giantbane feats, and decided I wanted to build a character using them, so this isn't for any particular game with any particular DM as yet. I'll keep these ideas in mind, but I won't expect to be allowed to use them because, as I said, that's crazy powerful stuff!

Thanks for the ideas, guys! Much appreciated! Feel free to keep them coming!

[daremetoidareyo]

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Sleight of Hand 8 ranks.
Benefit: Your mastery of Sleight of Hand allows you to steal an object from an adjacent opponent in combat as a standard action without provoking attacks of opportunity. You can take anything the character has on his or her person provided it is not held in hand. If you are in a grapple, you gain a +4 bonus on the attempt. In addition, when you make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action, you take a –10 penalty rather than a –20 penalty on the attempt.

[Tr0users]

Sweet! Thanks, buddy - I shall assuredly endeavour to work this into the build, because there's no way that dangling from some foe while I steal all of its favourite toys won't be all varieties of fun.

[Tr0users]

Okay. I'm a little further along with this - little being the operative word, as I'm terribly indecisive and, as usual, have far too many options to choose from. Again, as usual, I find myself with a list of many feats that I would like to include in the build, and not enough space. So... Help?!

Firstly, here are the feats that have taken my interest:

Underfoot Combat (available as a bonus feat with level 1 Halfling Monk substitution levels - ideally I'd like to go with Whisper Gnome, though, to make Titan Fighting work)
Confound the Big Folk
Giantbane (available as bonus Fighter feat (BFF))

Dodge (BFF)
Deceptive Dodge (BFF)
Titan Fighting (BFF)
Elusive Target (which would also require Mobility)

Combat Expertise (BFF)
Allied Defense (available from level 3 Maquar Crusader)
Improved Trip (available without prereqs from level 2 Halfling Monk sub levels) OR Stand Still
Combat Reflexes (BFF, also available from level 2 Halfling Monk sub levels, or from Serpent Armor)

Adaptive Style
Master Pickpocket
Earth Devotion (available, along with two other Devotion feats/domains from one level of Cloistered Cleric)

On top of those, a few Font of Inspiration feats would be hella useful, too.

I maybe need to explain why Earth Devotion is here. Both of the build's two main feats (Giantbane and Confound the Big Folk) rely on his targets not moving away from him during their turns. If he can make difficult terrain then his targets are prohibited from taking 5-foot steps, so he'll always be able to make attacks of opportunity against them to either trip them or make them Stand Still so they can't move away. If I go the tripping route, then I can match that up with Step of the Wind (level 1 Setting Sun stance) that lets him move normally in difficult terrain and gives a +4 bonus to trip attempts vs. anything within difficult terrain that has been prohibited from moving normally. Unfortunately, this trick won't work against flying creatures, for example, and I may be better off with the Thicket of Blades stance (level 3 Devoted Spirit) and Stand Still. Stand Still has its own problem, in that it depends on the build being able to do decent damage with a basic attack of opportunity, and this build isn't very focused on dealing damage itself, but through making enemies hit each other. I plan on probably taking 8 levels of Factotum, so Iaijutsu Focus could be on the cards, in which case the Able Learner feat might also be useful. This in itself has the problem of needing my character to be able to reliably induce flat-footedness in his opponents, and he'd need EWP (Gnomic Quickrazor).

The above paragraph probably gives a decent idea of the sort of headache this build is giving me at the moment. The over-abundance of useful feats can be alleviated somewhat by taking a couple of levels of Fighter and a couple of levels of Martial Rogue for four bonus fighter feats. Also, if I went for Strongheart Halfling instead of Whisper Gnome, then I'd get a free bonus feat at level 1; I'd be able to take a couple of levels of the Hin Disciple Halfling Monk substitution levels, and Titan Fighting would fall off the list of desired feats. This would make the character slower and less tough (without Titan Fighting). He'd also lose darkvision and low-light vision.

At the moment I'm probably looking at 8 levels of Factotum. The rest... I'm looking at up to two levels each of Fighter and Martial Rogue to fill in my feats; up to two levels each of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade for stances and maneuvers such as those already mentioned, Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Shield Block, Disarming Strike, Shadow Jaunt, etc; a level of Cloistered Cleric; and I've also found the Devoted Defender, and the updated version, Maquar Crusader, which I'd take either to level 3 or level 5 respectively, for a bunch of highly relevant looking abilities, although both unfortunately require me to take the Alertness feat and a Weapon Focus feat.

So... Any advice on the best way to organise any of this stuff would be much appreciated. Before the repeated banging of my head puts it through this wall and I lose my tenancy deposit.

[daremetoidareyo]

Okay. I'm a little further along with this - little being the operative word, as I'm terribly indecisive and, as usual, have far too many options to choose from. Again, as usual, I find myself with a list of many feats that I would like to include in the build, and not enough space. So... Help?!

Firstly, here are the feats that have taken my interest:

Underfoot Combat (available as a bonus feat with level 1 Halfling Monk substitution levels - ideally I'd like to go with Whisper Gnome, though, to make Titan Fighting work)
Confound the Big Folk
Giantbane (available as bonus Fighter feat (BFF))

Dodge (BFF)
Deceptive Dodge (BFF)
Titan Fighting (BFF)
Elusive Target (which would also require Mobility)

Combat Expertise (BFF)
Allied Defense (available from level 3 Maquar Crusader)
Improved Trip (available without prereqs from level 2 Halfling Monk sub levels) OR Stand Still
Combat Reflexes (BFF, also available from level 2 Halfling Monk sub levels, or from Serpent Armor)

Adaptive Style
Master Pickpocket
Earth Devotion (available, along with two other Devotion feats/domains from one level of Cloistered Cleric)

On top of those, a few Font of Inspiration feats would be hella useful, too.

I maybe need to explain why Earth Devotion is here. Both of the build's two main feats (Giantbane and Confound the Big Folk) rely on his targets not moving away from him during their turns. If he can make difficult terrain then his targets are prohibited from taking 5-foot steps, so he'll always be able to make attacks of opportunity against them to either trip them or make them Stand Still so they can't move away. If I go the tripping route, then I can match that up with Step of the Wind (level 1 Setting Sun stance) that lets him move normally in difficult terrain and gives a +4 bonus to trip attempts vs. anything within difficult terrain that has been prohibited from moving normally. Unfortunately, this trick won't work against flying creatures, for example, and I may be better off with the Thicket of Blades stance (level 3 Devoted Spirit) and Stand Still. Stand Still has its own problem, in that it depends on the build being able to do decent damage with a basic attack of opportunity, and this build isn't very focused on dealing damage itself, but through making enemies hit each other. I plan on probably taking 8 levels of Factotum, so Iaijutsu Focus could be on the cards, in which case the Able Learner feat might also be useful. This in itself has the problem of needing my character to be able to reliably induce flat-footedness in his opponents, and he'd need EWP (Gnomic Quickrazor).

The above paragraph probably gives a decent idea of the sort of headache this build is giving me at the moment. The over-abundance of useful feats can be alleviated somewhat by taking a couple of levels of Fighter and a couple of levels of Martial Rogue for four bonus fighter feats. Also, if I went for Strongheart Halfling instead of Whisper Gnome, then I'd get a free bonus feat at level 1; I'd be able to take a couple of levels of the Hin Disciple Halfling Monk substitution levels, and Titan Fighting would fall off the list of desired feats. This would make the character slower and less tough (without Titan Fighting). He'd also lose darkvision and low-light vision.

At the moment I'm probably looking at 8 levels of Factotum. The rest... I'm looking at up to two levels each of Fighter and Martial Rogue to fill in my feats; up to two levels each of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade for stances and maneuvers such as those already mentioned, Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Shield Block, Disarming Strike, Shadow Jaunt, etc; a level of Cloistered Cleric; and I've also found the Devoted Defender, and the updated version, Maquar Crusader, which I'd take either to level 3 or level 5 respectively, for a bunch of highly relevant looking abilities, although both unfortunately require me to take the Alertness feat and a Weapon Focus feat.

So... Any advice on the best way to organise any of this stuff would be much appreciated. Before the repeated banging of my head puts it through this wall and I lose my tenancy deposit.

Spreadsheets. 20 rows and just build and compare them. There is no other way other than brute force. Also: flaws. Also psywar.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7086.0

And the thread referenced therein, Caelic's I May Be Tiny But You're Dead, ought to be good references.

[Tr0users]

To update, I have more of a plan now, and I'm after people's thoughts. So here it is.

Strongheart Halfling: Factotum 8/ Devoted Defender 3/ Exoticist Fighter 2/ Martial Rogue 2/ Monk (Hin Disciple) 2/ Crusader 1/ Swordsage 1/ Something else 1

These are in no particular order as yet - I'm not quite that far along in the plan. Here's what those levels get me:

Factotum 8 - The ability to add my Int to attacks, damage, saves, and AC. The ability to add my Int to Str and Dex checks and Str and Dex based skill checks. The ability to take additional standard actions during a turn. It also grants me a few spells up to level 3; a fairly weak sneak attack ability; the ability to add my Factotum level to skill checks; trapfinding; some healing/uses of turn undead.

Devoted Defender 3 - If my "charge" is attacked, I may swap positions with them and take the attack myself; I may make an attack of opportunity against enemies attacking my charge; I may make Reflex saves to negate attacks against my charge. I also gain +2 to AC.

Exoticist Fighter 2 - Combat Expertise and Dodge. Also, 4 EWPs. I could also take Exotic Attack in place of one of the bonus feats.

Martial Rogue 2 - Giantbane, Deceptive Dodge. Also, Evasion. (Anyone know of any good variants that swap out trapfinding, at all? I don't really need it twice).

Hin Disciple 2 - Underfoot Combat, Improved Trip. Also, Flurry of Blows and Unarmed Strike. (I'm doubling up on Evasion, here, so, again, any variants?).

Crusader 1 - Shield Block, Defensive Rebuke, White Raven Tactics, Douse the Flames, Tactical Strike, and Thicket of Blades. Also, the ability to delay the effects of a small quantity of damage, and a small bonus to attack and damage rolls when I do.

Swordsage 1 - Weapon Focus (required for Devoted Defender), and Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Mighty Throw, Shadow Blade Technique, Mountain Hammer, Zephyr Dance, and Giant Killing Style. Also, +1 to Initiative.

I can gain Combat Reflexes with Serpent Armor.

With a couple of flaws, I can pick up 10 feats:

Confound the Big Folk
Adaptive Style
Font of Inspiration x3
Master Pickpocket
Allied Defense
Knock-Down
Elusive Target (I believe there are ways to buy Mobility for this)
Alertness (for Devoted Defender) (I could get this with a Dark Blue Ioun Stone instead, if anyone has any thoughts for other feats that might work well.)

I'm left with one level to play with. I've had a few ideas, but am eager to hear advice, as I am concerning the build as a whole. I could go:

Martial Wizard - An extra bonus fighter feat; a familiar (or possibly Abrupt Jaunt, or something), and a few more low-level spells.
Cloistered Cleric - Knowledge Devotion and two other domains/devotions. I would really like Uncanny Dodge, which the Fate domain offers. Others of interest include the Competition domain, and the Animal, Plant, and Protection Devotion feats.
Warblade - I'm looking at Disarming Strike, Iron Heart Surge, Lightning Recovery, and Absolute Steel Stance, (as well as converting that Weapon Focus feat from Swordsage into something vaguely useful, beyond a prerequisite).

I'm eager to hear about any flashes of inspiration that anybody has.

I also have a few rules questions concerning some of the unusual features of this build. I can't find rules that deal with the situation where two combatants inhabit the same space. If an ally threatens the enemy whose space my guy inhabits, is that guy automatically flanked, or does it depend on which space my guy's in? Conversely, if a second enemy threatens my guy while he's inhabiting the first enemy's space, is he automatically considered flanked? If my guy's inhabiting an enemy's space, but then uses Harm's Way (Devoted Defender) to swap places with an ally, then the ally suddenly finds themselves in the same space as the enemy - what happens?

Thank yee, everyone!

[Cerefel]

The only decent ACF for a rogue's trapfinding that isn't dependent on race is the Mimic ability from EoE which allows use of Disguise Self as an SLA based on your rogue level. Not really a lot of benefit, but it's better than nothing.

Monk's Evasion, on the other hand has a lot of ACFs that can be helpful. There's Spell Reflection (CM), Invisible Fist (EoE), and Feign Death (EoE). All of them are fairly unique and useful for different characters, so take your pick.

[Tr0users]

Spell Reflection looks pretty sexy, particularly in conjunction with Harm's Way. If I can get Abrupt Jaunt into the build then I can teleport up to 10ft to get adjacent to my charge (should they be targeted), swap places with him, and reflect the attack back at the caster. Feign Death is a weird and situationally great ability. I guess it could be a lifesaver. Invisible Fist could be useful for those rounds when I have to remain within an enemy's square in preparation for a CtBF maneuver without it moving away from me. The fact that it lasts a full round, rather than just to the end of my turn, as Cloak of Deception does, could be very helpful.

Hmmmm. Gonna have to have a think.

[Seppo87]

Have you considered Blade Bravo?

[Troacctid]

For reference, here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444354-3-5-Alternative-Class-Features-(ported-from-Wizards-community-boards)) is a list of alternate class features from books, and here (www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9028.0) are the ones from Dragon Magazine.

[Tr0users]

I did take a look at it, and the first five or so levels of Blade Bravo are tempting, but it'd need a fairly good Charisma score to make proper use of Goad. That would basically mean dropping my Intelligence score (as Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are all pretty important here), and losing my Factotum levels. On balance, I think I prefer the Factotum abilities to the Blade Bravo ones, so decided that it won't really fit.

Thanks for the links, Tro!

[Tvtyrant]

Quick draw frat plus a pile of harpoons? They get stuck to you, and can't pull them all out in a turn.

[daremetoidareyo]

Quick draw frat plus a pile of harpoons? They get stuck to you, and can't pull them all out in a turn.

And use them with the ranged pin feat so that they need two standard actions to be free.

[Sian]

I would suggest taking a look at gaining access to Guardian Mantle (Ardent or Wilder/Psychic Warrior with ACF), as to have a somewhat more flexible variant of Devoted Defender/Maquar Crusader 's 'Harm's Way'. Another option would be to look into the feat chain Constant Guardian -> Dutiful Guardian, from Drow of the Underdark

[OldTrees1]

I would suggest taking a look at gaining access to Guardian Mantle (Ardent or Wilder/Psychic Warrior with ACF), as to have a somewhat more flexible variant of Devoted Defender/Maquar Crusader 's 'Harm's Way'. Another option would be to look into the feat chain Constant Guardian -> Dutiful Guardian, from Drow of the Underdark

Be cautious. Downgrading from a non-action to an immediate action (or a move action + immediate action) is quite a downgrade because it limits it to once a round & costs actions.

[Sian]

Sure, Harm's Way is stronger, but it ties you down to only being able to tank off one ally, instead of whoever is actually in need.

That said, going for Guardian Mantle, then Deaden Blow used offensively, together with immunity to non-lethal (becoming undead being the most obvious), makes for quite an effective combo

[OldTrees1]

Sure, Harm's Way is stronger, but it ties you down to only being able to tank off one ally, instead of whoever is actually in need.

That said, going for Guardian Mantle, then Deaden Blow used offensively, together with immunity to non-lethal (becoming undead being the most obvious), makes for quite an effective combo

Yeah Guardian Mantle's extra flexibility (any adjacent ally instead of just 1 specific ally) might be worth the downgrade (Non Action -> Immediate Action + Move Action). That I why I merely suggested caution.

Constant Guardian + Dutiful Guardian is also tied to one ally. So the downgrade here (Non Action -> Immediate Action) is only worth considering if you really need to take advantage of the decreased cost (1 level -> 2 feats).

[Sian]

Constant Guardian + Dutiful Guardian is also tied to one ally. So the downgrade here (Non Action -> Immediate Action) is only worth considering if you really need to take advantage of the decreased cost (1 level -> 2 feats).

Well you could arguably take both and use Dutiful Guardian on Alice and Harm's Way on Bob :smallcool:

[OldTrees1]

Well you could arguably take both and use Dutiful Guardian on Alice and Harm's Way on Bob :smallcool:

You could. :smallcool:

If only there were Extra Charge (+1 Charge) and Extended Charge (+5ft range to protect Charge) feats.

[Tr0users]

I think we're probably getting to the stage where I'll need to make decisions based upon the makeup of the party that the character finds himself with. Since I don't know what that will be yet, I shall leave these as things to bear in mind should he find himself teamed with multiple other melee characters. I'm put off the Guardian mantle idea by the issue of having to spend a full-round action to regain psionic focus. Also, it just says that the damage is dealt against me, rather than the attack itself. That means I don't get the chance to negate the attack with my superior AC, or deflect it onto another enemy using Deceptive Dodge or Elusive Target. The feats look neat, though.

I'm interested to know whether there's anything that people would remove from the build I suggested above? Any weak choices? I usually make at least one or two...

[Tvtyrant]

And use them with the ranged pin feat so that they need two standard actions to be free.

Oh man, even with a low starting dc that is harsh.

[Tr0users]

One thing lacking from this build at the moment is a good trip check modifier. He's got Improved Trip, cancelling out his small size, and Brains Over Brawn adding his Int to the check, but I'm sure he'll need more pluses than that. I'm looking at Battle Jump at the moment, and wondering whether people can suggest good ways to reliably get that 10 ft drop onto opponents, either through high jump checks, or other means. Alternatively, can anyone suggest better ways for this build to improve his tripping ability?

[Sian]

the third option from Confound the Big Folk (RotW p153) gives you the ability to trip people without them gaining bonuses from Size.

Also seem to faintly recall that there is at least one or two other ways, either involving Halfings or Gnomes, one of them an ACF, one a prestige class, although unfortunately i can't remember either

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like the idea of taking either Human-Blooded or Human Heritage and Jotunbrud. Count as Large whenever it benefits me numerically, and resist attacks as though I'm Large? Count me in.

[Troacctid]

I like the idea of taking either Human-Blooded or Human Heritage and Jotunbrud. Count as Large whenever it benefits me numerically, and resist attacks as though I'm Large? Count me in.
That's not an option for a halfling, unfortunately.

[ShurikVch]

1. From which minimal level should that build work?
2. Should the creature really be Small size? I'm asking because Shrink Collar can turn any bigger creature into Small - without any usual size penalty
3. How about Powerful Build and other such things
4. Which sources available? How about magazines? Dragonlance/Kalamar/Rokugan/..?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's not an option for a halfling, unfortunately.Human Blood works just fine on a halfling. Humans are apparently like dragons or fiends; they can interbreed with just about anything.

"Great Grandad Paul was a tripling. I guess I take after him."

[Troacctid]

Halflings are not human-descended. That's not what the "half" part means.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Halflings are not human-descended. That's not what the "half" part means.If you have an ancestor that was human, yes, you are human-descended. That's what it means. Half-elves and half-orcs aren't the only ones descended from humans, and you don't have to be half-human to be a half-elf or half-orc, either. A (mechanically) full-blooded elf can give birth to a half-elf with another elf if he has a human ancestor. Does that mean that he can't take Human Blood, even though he is descended from a human?

No, he can take the feat.

Same goes here.

Even a full-blooded human could take the feat, if he wanted to.

Or are you trying to tell me that you aren't descended from a human if you have a human ancestor?

[Troacctid]

Halflings are not a human-descended race. They don't have human ancestors.

[Tr0users]

Sian - I also have Mighty Throw. The trouble is that both that and CtBF's maneuver both require standard actions to use, so can't be employed for attacks of opportunity, or if I manage to trip using Knock Down, or something.

Maxi - I've seen someone else on the web saying that Halflings and Humans can't breed together, accompanied with an, admittedly unsourced 'Breeding Table' confirming as much. It isn't looking good for Jotunbrud. Would've been beautiful, though.

Shurik - In answer to questions 1 and 4, I don't know. I don't have a game for the character yet - I just saw the small people feats and decided I wanted to build him. I guess it would be helpful if he was usable at all levels, but not essential. The Powerful Build and Shrink Collar suggestions might prove to be worth it. Powerful Build has the irritating Str 18 prerequisite, when I'd prefer to be pumping up Int as much as I can, but it'll be more easily done if I'm a shrunken human without the racial Str penalty.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Halflings are not a human-descended race. They don't have human ancestors.Neither are pureblooded elves or orcs, but non-pureblooded elves and orcs can still have human ancestors. "My granddad was a human" is all you need. You should probably look up "ancestor" and "descendant" in the dictionary. It's fascinating how people who have other people as their ancestors are descended from them.


Maxi - I've seen someone else on the web saying that Halflings and Humans can't breed together, accompanied with an, admittedly unsourced 'Breeding Table' confirming as much. It isn't looking good for Jotunbrud. Would've been beautiful, though.That table is in the Book of Erotic Fantasy. 3rd party doesn't count, I'm afraid, though it may at your table, I dunno.

[edit] But seriously, if halflings and blink dogs (blinklings) and gnomes and umber hulks (burrowers) can interbreed, I honestly don't see how they couldn't do so with humans.

[Troacctid]

Neither are pureblooded elves or orcs, but non-pureblooded elves and orcs can still have human ancestors. "My granddad was a human" is all you need.
That would make you a half-orc or half-elf, not an orc or elf. And halflings don't interbreed with humans either way. It doesn't work.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, here's an off the beaten path idea. Crack open the PHB 2.

Look at the knight class. Look at the knights challenge mechanic.

Now, flip back to the section on affiliations.


Make a custom one of those. Have it have a couple of different sub groups, including a sort of defender type sub group. Might want to make it small scale just to make advancement easier.

Anyway, make the benefits gained for progressing center around setting yourself up to be able to use the knights challenge mechanic, with out having to be a knight. Base it on some other stat, Wisdom is viable on grounds of insight, intelligence is viable on grounds of learned tactics to effect the desired results, Str/Dex/Con all viable on being able to present a suitable physical presence to provoke the desired response.

Make the behavior patterns be tweaked to fit the affiliation.

Now just advance in that affiliation and pick up the ability to provoke and draw aggro, thus allowing you to tank.


Build the rest of the character as desired.







An alternative that comes online a bit later and might be more likely to draw a raised eye brow, Item Familiar feat form Unearthed Arcana.

Pick up the feat. when it gives you the option to pick a special power, around level 10 if I recall, negotiate with the DM to get a grafting of the knights challenge ability, keyed to a different stat from Cha, and possibly a different behavior code you two agree on early on. Make sure you do all the normal things to protect an Item Familiar, but other then that, you now have that all important challenge feature which will let you make foes come after you. Build the rest of the character to taste.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That would make you a half-orc or half-elf, not an orc or elf.Under the half-elf entry in the PHB:

"Most half-elves are the children of human–elf pairings. Some, however, are the children of parents who themselves are partly human and partly elf. Some of these “second generation” half-elves have humanlike eyes, but most still have green eyes"

Similar entries are in the sorcerer entry, the Dragonwrought feat, and the various planetouched and other hybrid races. So it's clear that racial traits traits can lay dormant in a bloodline for some time. And as such, since an elf's ancestry can contain a human without being a half-elf, an elf can qualify for Human Blood, since the feat never specifies that you must be half-human -- instead, you must merely have human ancestry, with half-elves and half-orcs being examples. And having human ancestry isn't limited to just elves and orcs, if all the "half-X" templates are anything to go by.


And halflings don't interbreed with humans either way. It doesn't work.Source?

[Sian]

Source?

It's difficult to prove a negative, so lets turn it around ... any sources on Halflings being capable of breeding with humans? and no BoEF doesn't count as it's 3rd party

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's difficult to prove a negative, so lets turn it around ... any sources on Halflings being capable of breeding with humans? and no BoEF doesn't count as it's 3rd partyI've seen nothing either way about it, but Troacctid seems utterly certain that it's impossible, so she must have an official statement on the matter.

[Troacctid]

Under the half-elf entry in the PHB:

"Most half-elves are the children of human–elf pairings. Some, however, are the children of parents who themselves are partly human and partly elf. Some of these “second generation” half-elves have humanlike eyes, but most still have green eyes"
Right. Half-elves produce half-elf offspring, not elf offspring. This is what I was saying.


Similar entries are in the sorcerer entry, the Dragonwrought feat, and the various planetouched and other hybrid races. So it's clear that racial traits traits can lay dormant in a bloodline for some time. And as such, since an elf's ancestry can contain a human without being a half-elf, an elf can qualify for Human Blood, since the feat never specifies that you must be half-human -- instead, you must merely have human ancestry, with half-elves and half-orcs being examples. And having human ancestry isn't limited to just elves and orcs, if all the "half-X" templates are anything to go by.
And similarly, half-dragons produce half-dragon offspring and so on. The point being that the "half" in the name is a misnomer—you can be 1/4 or 1/8 or 3/4 dragon and still be a half-dragon. But a true dragon will never have a half-dragon parent. A full elf will never have a half-elf parent. Etc.

Furthermore, you're reading the requirement wrong. It's not "human-descended," it's "human-descended race." Elves are not, as a race, descended from humans. They are more like evolutionary cousins.

As for halflings, there's no such thing as a half-halfling anywhere in the books.

[OldTrees1]

I've seen nothing either way about it, but Troacctid seems utterly certain that it's impossible, so she must have an official statement on the matter.

IIRC the Human Heritage feat requires the entire RACE be "Half-human race or human-descended race", not merely your lineage. Halflings as a entire RACE are not a human-descended race so even a human-descended Halfling (if one can exist) cannot take the Human Heritage feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

IIRC the Human Heritage feat requires the entire RACE be "Half-human race or human-descended race", not merely your lineage. Halflings as a entire RACE are not a human-descended race so even a human-descended Halfling (if one can exist) cannot take the Human Heritage feat.I was talking about Human Blood and Human Heritage, if you'll notice. The first one just requires "Partial human ancestry;" all that requires is that you have a human somewhere in your background. Human Heritage can also be a thing; see below.


Right. Half-elves produce half-elf offspring, not elf offspring. This is what I was saying.No it isn't. That said that some half-elves come from those who have some human and some elf in their genetic histories. If you have a half-elf who is 50% of each, who then has a child with an elf, who also has a child with an elf, the resulting child is most likely going to be an elf with a few minor human traits. That character can have a child that is a half-elf, which is what the PHB was saying. That character could also easily take the Human Blood feat, even though game-rules-wise he's an elf.


And similarly, half-dragons produce half-dragon offspring and so on. The point being that the "half" in the name is a misnomer—you can be 1/4 or 1/8 or 3/4 dragon and still be a half-dragon. But a true dragon will never have a half-dragon parent. A full elf will never have a half-elf parent. Etc.Then you're just ignoring all of the examples I gave above, where the game outright says that traits can lay dormant for generations before a character displays those traits.


Furthermore, you're reading the requirement wrong. It's not "human-descended," it's "human-descended race." Elves are not, as a race, descended from humans. They are more like evolutionary cousins.No. It's "Partial human ancestry." That is easily done, simply by having a human in your family tree.


As for halflings, there's no such thing as a half-halfling anywhere in the books.Uh, yes there is. A half-dragon halfling is half-halfling. A half-illithid halfling is also a half-halfling. And what happens if a male human uses magic to turn into a halfling so he'll be physically compatible with a halfling female? Dragons use shapechanging magic all the time for this purpose, so it's not exactly out of the realm of possibility. The resulting child is just as viable as a half-dragon, and he can claim a human in his ancestry just fine. A halfling with Human Blood (or even Human Heritage) is perfectly justifiable, and it's completely fine, RAW.

[OldTrees1]

I was talking about Human Blood and Human Heritage, if you'll notice. The first one just requires "Partial human ancestry;" all that requires is that you have a human somewhere in your background. Human Heritage can also be a thing; see below.

Considering I did not comment about Human Blood, I will continue to not comment about Human Blood.


However I find your argument with regards to Human Heritage to be quite lacking. To take Human Heritage your character's RACE must be human descended (not merely your character). Care to cite where RAW says Halflings, as a RACE, are a Human Descended RACE?

[Tr0users]

I made a thread in an attempt to settle this. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495674-3-5-Human-Heritage-Halflings&p=21037539#post21037539

[Red Fel]

This whole "Are halflings human-descended?" debate stems from wanting to take Jotunbrud, right? To be little and big at the same time, right?

Why not skip the Halfling idea altogether and go with Tiny von Big McLargeHuge? Sure, he's a Kobold, but he falls pretty much everywhere on the spectrum.

[OldTrees1]

This whole "Are halflings human-descended?" debate stems from wanting to take Jotunbrud, right? To be little and big at the same time, right?

Why not skip the Halfling idea altogether and go with Tiny von Big McLargeHuge? Sure, he's a Kobold, but he falls pretty much everywhere on the spectrum.

Didn't Tiny von Big McLargeHuge also attempt to use Jotunbrud? (leave discussion about prereqs for the other thread)

However you are right that the Kobold's Slight Build cold be useful.
Sidenote: Why doesn't Stoneblessed grant Powerful Build? That seems like such an oversight.

[ShurikVch]

It's possible to apply Half-Ogre template to Kobold with Slight Build, then take the Hulking Brute feat (Dragonlance Campaign Setting); this way resulting creature will be Medium-sized, but count as Large or Small when you want so