What prestige class should Roy take?

[LeighTheDwarf]

Do you think Roy should take a prestige class? If so, what are some good non-casting prestige classes that allow martial characters to make use of their mental stats in combat?

[Kish]

I think he's going to end the story still a single-classed fighter.

He said, when fighting his 4ed counterpart, that the reason he's a fighter and not a warblade is "Dad would never have paid for a PhD program." I suspect, however, that the Doylist reason, is that Tome of Battle maneuvers would be substantially less approachable to a non-D&D-playing audience than "stand in one place and dish out a Full Attack." And that being the case...I think he's going to end the story still a single-classed fighter.

If Rich surprises me and has him take a prestige class, it will most likely be one Rich made up like the Dashing Swordsman, not one from a D&D book.

[woweedd]

I think he's going to end the story still a single-classed fighter.

He said, when fighting his 4ed counterpart, that the reason he's a fighter and not a warblade is "Dad would never have paid for a PhD program." I suspect, however, that the Doylist reason, is that Tome of Battle maneuvers would be substantially less approachable to a non-D&D-playing audience than "stand in one place and dish out a Full Attack." And that being the case...I think he's going to end the story still a single-classed fighter.

If Rich surprises me and has him take a prestige class, it will most likely be one Rich made up like the Dashing Swordsman, not one from a D&D book.
(Emphasis mine.)
I would say Bearer of the Ancestral Weapon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9622876&postcount=5), especially as we have both an anxcestral weapon and a single-clased fighter ancestor ripe for the taking but it requires spellcasting so not gonna happen.

[DataNinja]

I think he's going to end the story still a single-classed fighter.

Especially since the person he drew inspiration from the most, Horace Greenhilt, is a single-classed fighter, and is proud of Roy for doing the same thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)

[Morquard]

Pretty sure once he hits level 21 he has to multiclass. :)

[Mandor]

Clearly, he should go for Dashing Swordsman. Though, he'd have to find a variation of it that works with greatswords, and snarky comments rather than puns.

[SaintRidley]

Fighter seems like a good one for him. Seriously, he's going to stay single-classed.

And no, Morquard, he wouldn't have to multiclass after level 20. He could just as easily keep taking epic fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicFighter) levels.

[Kish]

Pretty sure once he hits level 21 he has to multiclass. :)
If this is a joke, I'm afraid I don't get it.

"Just got access to epic feats" is a good candidate for the worst time to multiclass.

[Roland Itiative]

Fighter seems like a good one for him. Seriously, he's going to stay single-classed.

And no, Morquard, he wouldn't have to multiclass after level 20. He could just as easily keep taking epic fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicFighter) levels.

I imagine he would jump with joy at the (attack of) opportunity to take Spellcasting Harrier :P

[Morquard]

And no, Morquard, he wouldn't have to multiclass after level 20. He could just as easily keep taking epic fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicFighter) levels.

Ah see waht I know... I thought they stopped at 20.

[Morquard]

If this is a joke, I'm afraid I don't get it.No joke, just me being wrong.

[wumpus]

Clearly, he should go for Dashing Swordsman. Though, he'd have to find a variation of it that works with greatswords, and snarky comments rather than puns.

The whole point of dashing swordsman is to use charisma instead of strength/dexterity. While Roy has a decent charisma, we tend to assume that his strength was at least equal and he has been putting his level ups there (constitution might make more sense to meatshield while the casters take whoever down, but that isn't Roy's style).

Some sort of wizardslayer would work, but considering the feat Horace taught him it is rather pointless now. Expect Roy to retire a full fighter.

Will any of the others take prestige classes? I suppose they should, and none of them have the attachment to class purity that Roy does, but it looks like only Elan will have a prestige class (unless Belkar takes one right before croaking).

[KillingAScarab]

Once Roy is done proving that 20 levels of fighter without alternate class features (but some help from just one splatbook) is good enough, his next challenge will be to prove that survivor is worth it. To date, even the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492923-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LXXIX) hasn't touched that.

[The MunchKING]

"Just got access to epic feats" is a good candidate for the worst time to multiclass.

I wouldn't see why. He's still got 20 character levels, so he should still have ACCESS to those feats.

[InvisibleBison]

I wouldn't see why. He's still got 20 character levels, so he should still have ACCESS to those feats.

The difference is in the number of feats. If he took 10 levels of some prestige class, he'd get 4 feats from character levels. If he took 10 levels of fighter, he'd get those same 4 feats, plus 5 epic fighter bonus feats.

[Emanick]

The difference is in the number of feats. If he took 10 levels of some prestige class, he'd get 4 feats from character levels. If he took 10 levels of fighter, he'd get those same 4 feats, plus 5 epic fighter bonus feats.

Also, it's been a while since I read through the epic feats, but aren't there some that require being a level 21+ fighter?

[dps]

If you mean what he should do from a narrative perspective, the answer is obviously that he shouldn't take any prestige class. If you mean what should he do from an optimization POV, I'll leave that to people more familiar with 3.5 to answer.

[Morty]

Narratively speaking, Roy did just get a major upgrade when he unlocked his sword's potential. So a prestige class would be entirely redundant.

[Jasdoif]

Well, if we're assuming Roy's forced to take a prestige class...I'd say Legacy Champion. Fancy abilities with his legacy weapon, still have most of the progression on his Fighter bonus feats, boost that Will save he's got, and get more skill points. He'd lose out a bit on hit points, attack bonus and Fort save though.

[Nightblade]

If a prestige class would give him a significant power boost, increasing his chances of defeating Xykon and saving the world, would he let his pride get in the way and NOT take it?

[martianmister]

Airship Pilot (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Airship_Pilot_(3.5e_Prestige_Class))

[Poison Mushroom]

If a prestige class would give him a significant power boost, increasing his chances of defeating Xykon and saving the world, would he let his pride get in the way and NOT take it?
Occult Slayer (CW) could theoretically be an option, but Xykon is far too much of a blaster for even 2/day Spell Turning to be any kind of useful. The immunity to mind-affecting abilities is nice, but maybe not worth 5 levels of mediocre PrC.

[B.I.T.T.]

I kinda doubt he will. First of all, Roy strikes me as the kind of guy who'd just stick with Fighter. It's worked out well enough for him in the past and he has a lot of personal investment in the class. His grandfather was a fighter and he wields the sword his grandfather wielded in the past. He also seems to want to serve as an example that fighters aren't dumb.

Second, Mr. Burlew seems to be kinda getting away from the game rules aspect of the strip. Most of the jokes these days seem to come more from the situation the Order gets into rather than poking fun at the rules.

[Jay R]

None. He's a single-class Fighter, and will remain so.

[littlebum2002]

If a prestige class would give him a significant power boost, increasing his chances of defeating Xykon and saving the world, would he let his pride get in the way and NOT take it?

It's also a question of how easy it is to start a prestige class in this world. So far (I believe) we have only met 2 characters with prestige classes, which suggests that they're not something that most characters do, for whatever reason. Add onto that the fact that a good portion of Roy's character is trying to fulfill his grandfathers legacy (and prove to his father that fighters are competent) by defeating Xykon as a fighter.

Sure, we know that he'll be stronger as a Prestige Class, but it's entirely possible he doesn't know that. And if we're on the line of reasoning that "he'll be stronger in a prestige class, so it would be irresponsible not to", then he should just be a Warblade.

[RatElemental]

It's also a question of how easy it is to start a prestige class in this world. So far (I believe) we have only met 2 characters with prestige classes, which suggests that they're not something that most characters do, for whatever reason.

Well, there was Tsukiko (Mystic Theurge), Elan (Dashing Swordsman), Julio (Also Dashing Swordsman), and... uh...

*Checks the OOTS wiki*

Well, there was that Shadow Dancer guy from the hotel arc. Still, 4 is not many examples.

[littlebum2002]

Well, there was Tsukiko (Mystic Theurge), Elan (Dashing Swordsman), Julio (Also Dashing Swordsman), and... uh...

*Checks the OOTS wiki*

Well, there was that Shadow Dancer guy from the hotel arc. Still, 4 is not many examples.

I was thinking of Tsusiko and Elan. Not sure how I forgot Julio, but the shadow dancer totally slipped my mind.

However, considering that like 95% of the classes in the comic are Core, if we do want Roy to pick a prestige class it should be a Core class. And TBH I can't think of any that would be even slightly useful

[Ruck]

Well, there was Tsukiko (Mystic Theurge), Elan (Dashing Swordsman), Julio (Also Dashing Swordsman), and... uh...

*Checks the OOTS wiki*

Well, there was that Shadow Dancer guy from the hotel arc. Still, 4 is not many examples.

There's Chuck the Arcane Trickster!

[HerbieRAI]

He's already a fighter/fighter with one level of fighter for the HP and bonus feet. I doubt he'll want the experience penalty for having another class. :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

If a prestige class would give him a significant power boost, increasing his chances of defeating Xykon and saving the world, would he let his pride get in the way and NOT take it?

I don't think you quite understand how pride works.

[danielxcutter]

I was thinking of Tsusiko and Elan. Not sure how I forgot Julio, but the shadow dancer totally slipped my mind.

However, considering that like 95% of the classes in the comic are Core, if we do want Roy to pick a prestige class it should be a Core class. And TBH I can't think of any that would be even slightly useful

Hmmm... This is from memory, so it might be imperfect. Still, I'm fairly sure I've got all the classes that have appeared in the comic.

Core: Fighter, Wizard, Sorcerer, Paladin, Monk, Ranger, Cleric, Bard, Druid, Rogue, Barbarian, Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, Shadowdancer, Assassin, Warrior, Aristocrat, Commoner.

Non-core: Psion, Soulknife, Dashing Swordsman, Favored Soul, Crusader, Ninja, Spymaster.

Unless I've missed something, that's 18 core classes and 7 non-core, so a little under 3/4 of the classes seen are core. That's less than 75%.

Ha!

EDIT: Oh yeah, it's implied Kubota had levels in Spymaster.

[Peelee]

EDIT: Oh yeah, it's implied Kubota had levels in Spymaster.

Can you elaborate?

[danielxcutter]

Can you elaborate?

Kubota said that he had an "aristocrat-friendly prestige class that grants the extraordinary ability to fool magical lie detection". His Tvtropes character folder says that it's probably Spymaster, and I must say it fits him perfectly. One way or another it's non-core.

EDIT: Okay, it could have been Assassin, and since Spymaster only works if Kubota... wasn't really Kubota... yeah, critfailed on that Knowledge(prestige classes) check.

[Peelee]

Kubota said that he had an "aristocrat-friendly prestige class that grants the extraordinary ability to fool magical lie detection". His Tvtropes character folder says that it's probably Spymaster, and I must say it fits him perfectly. One way or another it's non-core.

Aha. Forgot about that line. Thanks!

[RatElemental]

EDIT: Okay, it could have been Assassin, and since Spymaster only works if Kubota... wasn't really Kubota... yeah, critfailed on that Knowledge(prestige classes) check.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a reason "Kubota, the Azure City Noble" would have to be one of his cover identities. That could be the real him and he has some other identities he could assume when needed.

[danielxcutter]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a reason "Kubota, the Azure City Noble" would have to be one of his cover identities. That could be the real him and he has some other identities he could assume when needed.

Oh yeah...:smallannoyed: The OotS wiki must be wrong on that part, plus the Paladins probably wouldn't let Kubota cast a Glibness spell(which Assassins get) right in front of them.

[Rift_Wolf]

Kubota doesn't actually say which prc he took; it could be 'Azure City Deceiver', which he learnt from his father. He does specify it's an extraordinary ability to fool magical truth spells, which Spymaster doesn't have.

As for Roy's prc; Exemplar. Everyone loves Exemplars.

[littlebum2002]

He does specify it's an extraordinary ability to fool magical truth spells, which Spymaster doesn't have.



Deep Cover (Ex): At 7th level, a spymaster becomes able to quiet her mind and completely immerse herself in her cover identity. While she operates under deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate to her cover identity; they reveal nothing relating to her spymaster persona.

[Rift_Wolf]

Deep Cover (Ex): At 7th level, a spymaster becomes able to quiet her mind and completely immerse herself in her cover identity. While she operates under deep cover, divination spells detect only information appropriate to her cover identity; they reveal nothing relating to her spymaster persona.

Huh. Missed that bit.
So Kubota had at least two identities, bot called Kubota?

[Kish]

I doubt very much that Rich bothered to look up official prestige classes before writing that line. For reasons including, but by no means limited to, knowing that Kubota was about to meet the qualifications for the Pile of Ash prestige class.

[Emanick]

I doubt very much that Rich bothered to look up official prestige classes before writing that line. For reasons including, but by no means limited to, knowing that Kubota was about to meet the qualifications for the Pile of Ash prestige class.

He might also have simply known what a spymaster was, and decided that Kubota might as well be one.

Of course, if we're treating OOTSverse as a real place rather than a fictional world, we may as well leave Rich's thought process out of it.

[Kish]

You want to pretend "what prestige class did Kubota have" is a question that Rich's thought processes are irrelevant to, go ahead, but don't expect me to.

Now, if everyone who's been talking about Kubota's prestige class wants to say the question is, "Is there a D&D prestige class that fits the ability Kubota said he had?" instead, I would agree that that has nothing to do with Rich's thought processes.

[Emanick]

You want to pretend "what prestige class did Kubota have" is a question that Rich's thought processes are irrelevant to, go ahead, but don't expect me to.

Now, if everyone who's been talking about Kubota's prestige class wants to say the question is, "Is there a D&D prestige class that fits the ability Kubota said he had?" instead, I would agree that that has nothing to do with Rich's thought processes.

I said that if we're treating OOTSverse as a real place rather than a fictional world, we may as well leave Rich's thought process out of it. If OOTSverse is a real world, Rich as an author does not exist, so of course what he thinks is irrelevant. In this view, only information provided in the story itself is meaningful, and external commentaries, etc., aren't considered valid.

You may think that such a view is silly, but it's a very common one. Ask any literary critic. In any case, I wasn't assuming it in my post, hence the word "if."

[Boblar]

I said that if we're treating OOTSverse as a real place rather than a fictional world, we may as well leave Rich's thought process out of it. If OOTSverse is a real world, Rich as an author does not exist, so of course what he thinks is irrelevant. In this view, only information provided in the story itself is meaningful, and external commentaries, etc., aren't considered valid.

You may think that such a view is silly, but it's a very common one. Ask any literary critic. In any case, I wasn't assuming it in my post, hence the word "if."

Common ideas can be silly, since the commonness of an idea does not add weight to its usefulness or "truthiness". Argumentum ad populum = fallacy.

Of course OOTS is not a real world. That is obvious. You do realise that its obvious... right?

Even if it was a real world, Rich is its god-like creator and what he thinks is absolutely relevant since it impacts the creation and maintenance of the world absolutely.

If it was a real world, that had spontaneously generated itself and we were actually watching that generation through the 4th-wall, then what you wrote makes sense. But none of that is true. So I guess what you wrote doesn't make sense.

Literary critics: Bite me, I guess?

(of course, if you were making some kind of comment on how a good author can make a world seem real and that it can operate independent of its creator, and since some people treat it like a real world that means Rich is a great author, then I agree, and so does logic.)

[Kish]

Indeed. If you think there's a legitimate case that we should pretend the question "what prestige class did Kubota have?" doesn't involve Rich's decisions, make the case, don't just appeal to authority.

(I can't make head or tail of what you're even getting at with the "I said if" thing. You, and as far as I can see only you, suddenly proposed approaching the comic in a way that makes no sense to me. If you presume that everything since they reached the brain-damaging gases in the Dungeon of Dorukan has been Haley's coma-dream there's no such character as Kubota, but if I stuck that phrase in the thread when it wasn't part of an illustrative example, it would be entirely legitimate for people to see that I had proposed presuming that and expect me to give an accounting of why.)

[Emanick]

Common ideas can be silly, since the commonness of an idea does not add weight to its usefulness or "truthiness". Argumentum ad populum = fallacy.

Of course OOTS is not a real world. That is obvious. You do realise that its obvious... right?

Even if it was a real world, Rich is its god-like creator and what he thinks is absolutely relevant since it impacts the creation and maintenance of the world absolutely.

If it was a real world, that had spontaneously generated itself and we were actually watching that generation through the 4th-wall, then what you wrote makes sense. But none of that is true. So I guess what you wrote doesn't make sense.

Literary critics: Bite me, I guess?

(of course, if you were making some kind of comment on how a good author can make a world seem real and that it can operate independent of its creator, and since some people treat it like a real world that means Rich is a great author, then I agree, and so does logic.)

Okay, let me try explaining this in a different way.

Since we're never going to know what Rich thinks is Kubota's prestige class, what he thinks is irrelevant. We can only guess what he thinks. As OOTSverse's "god-like creator," if he declared that Kubota was a Spymaster, or a Blackguard, or an Acolyte of the Wooly-Footed Platypus, then that would be that. But since he hasn't weighed in on the matter, and presumably won't, what Rich thinks in his own head about Kubota can't possibly affect our view of the character, because we don't know anything about it. Thus, it's irrelevant.

In-story, though, we still know that Kubota has a specific prestige class. It doesn't remain "Generic, Non-Specific Prestige Class" just because we don't know what it is, any more than, say, Elan has no blood type simply because Rich hasn't told us what that blood type is. Again, if you want to get literal, none of the characters have "real" classes or blood types or anything, because they don't exist - but that's beside the point, isn't it?

Regarding common ideas and literary criticism - there is no "right" or "wrong" way to conceptualize storytelling and literary theory. Different people, unsurprisingly, view storytelling in different ways. Since the whole concept of how to think about imaginary universes is subjective, you can't simply say that someone who talks about the Death of the Author is *wrong*. That misses the point.

Anyway, this is not a very important point, so I probably won't discuss it further. I only responded to Kish to begin with because I have a difficult time not responding to condescending snark.

[Kish]

Let me be clear about what my position on Kubota's prestige class is.

I think, based on Rich's writing process as he's repeatedly described it (Vaarsuvius' level is channa masala), there is a ~5% chance he had a specific class in mind when he wrote that line for Kubota, and a ~95% chance he simply made one up, like he made up Dashing Swordsman but with all the details reduced to "lets you ignore magical lie detection, and is 'aristocrat-friendly' in some way I'm not going to bother to figure out."

If you want to tie that line to a prestige class that exists in D&D, you can comb the D&D books, but I'll be surprised if you find anything that fits the description given without handwaving the "aristocrat-friendly" line so hard that it becomes "dgdsgsdtle-iertaskh," or having other really conspicuous problems (like Spymaster, which, as has been discussed, only fits if you decide that Kubota's identity was one of multiple cover identities he, never hinted at, had).

[littlebum2002]

Let me be clear about what my position on Kubota's prestige class is.

I think, based on Rich's writing process as he's repeatedly described it (Vaarsuvius' level is channa masala), there is a ~5% chance he had a specific class in mind when he wrote that line for Kubota, and a ~95% chance he simply made one up, like he made up Dashing Swordsman but with all the details reduced to "lets you ignore magical lie detection, and is 'aristocrat-friendly' in some way I'm not going to bother to figure out."

If you want to tie that line to a prestige class that exists in D&D, you can comb the D&D books, but I'll be surprised if you find anything that fits the description given without handwaving the "aristocrat-friendly" line so hard that it becomes "dgdsgsdtle-iertaskh," or having other really conspicuous problems (like Spymaster, which, as has been discussed, only fits if you decide that Kubota's identity was one of multiple cover identities he, never hinted at, had).

I think what you're trying to say is "Even if there weren't any aristocrat-friendly prestige classes that granted immunity to magical lie detection, Kubota still would have had one"


Also:


if you decide that Kubota's identity was one of multiple cover identities he, never hinted at, had).

I mean, most people who have multiple cover identities aren't going to hint at that fact.

[Kish]

Sometimes I miss the ??? smiley.