[3.5] Weapon of Legacy

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

So, we've been given a McGuffin in a prewritten adventure, in the form of a Legacy weapon.

It is an adamantine longsword +1, with leadership based legacy abilities.

As of yet, none of us has performed the ritual.

The issue is, it required 2 ranks in Diplomacy to begin the bonding rituals.

No one in the party is really suitable as a wielder, without some investment:

Goblin Scout 5: wrong size, no Diplomacy
Dwarf Fighter 5: no Diplomacy, terrible Cha, not many skill points to spare
Human Cleric 5: no martial weapon proficiency, would need to invest a feat and the ranks in Diplomacy at level 6.
Hellbred Binder 5: has the ranks in Diplomacy, but only has longsword proficiency when bound to a specific vestige.

It has been implied that the item is quite important to the storyline, but we have not yet researched it's full abilities.

So the option we have are:
A). Dwarf spends cross-class ranks in Diplomacy for next two levels
B). Dwarf dips in Cleric or Ranger (cross class) for Diplomacy ranks
C). The Binder (me) claims the weapon, but can only use it effectively when bound to a particular vestige, that isn't one of the ones he usually binds
D). The Cleric blows a feat next level

...I know it's hard to seek advice without knowing the full extent of the item powers, and that generally Legacy Items aren't that great - but if you had to go for one of the above options (or come up with another option), what would you choose?

Cheers - T

[Zanos]

It isn't sized for the Goblin, and you're not an effective melee combatant.

Does the cleric typically fight in melee? I'd give it to him if so, and the fighter if not.

For the record, I hate prewritten stories and feel dirty giving advice on this.

[Troacctid]

I would just not do the ritual. It's probably not worth it anyway.

[Khedrac]

I would have a chat with the DM and explain that, while you as players understand that the sword is important to the campaign, none of your characters are remotely interested in the weapon based on the knowledge you currently have (i.e. the dwarf is not one for leadership abilities, you have very little use for a sword, and no-one else can use the thing at all).

That said, and depending on the results of the discussion the first thing the party should do is try to research the item - just because it is a sword does not mean that most of its abilities will be martial in nature - it might really suit your character (who has the diplomacy) even when he would be taking a non-proficiency penalty for wielding it.

If all else fails, I would have your character do the ritual and see what the first set of abilities are like. If the sword is more suited to someone else they can then try to get the pre-requisites for wielding it and you can give them the sword. (Gold is the easiest resource to replace in the game - don't waste skill points or feats until you know you need to.)
If the DM won't discuss the issue at all, you cannot get any more information, and the initial abilities do not look useful, just sell it at the price for its non-legacy statistics.
If the DM screams that you need the sword point out that the characters do not know that - and you gave him several chances to let them know.

[Eldariel]

In Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, we received a demonslaying Bastard Sword with ridiculous bonuses, and some Legacy Bow that my Swift Hunter could theoretically use.

We simply sold them for nice profit and kitted ourselves out in the markets of the Sigil instead. Weapons of Legacy are sadly not worth that much though so you wouldn't receive a great deal either. The personal costs in the rituals might mean it isn't worth keeping anyways unless it's custom.

If it appears worthwhile, perhaps you could reforge it into something suitable or get the DM to fiat proficiency as a bonus from the ritual.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Find a worthy prince(ss), heir to the throne of a long-lost empire of fabled riches and great magical power, and give them the sword. When they reclaim the throne, attend the coronation to recieve your rightful reward.

It's much better than performing the ritual. Weapons of Legacy suck. You're better off with artificer-based custom crafting, as bookkeeping-heavy as that is.

[ayvango]

Weapons of Legacy suck.
Is there any way to get stackable improving weapon threat range in 3.5 material?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Is there any way to get stackable improving weapon threat range in 3.5 material?
Disciple of Dispater is the classic way. There's also Psychic Weapon Master.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are a few cleric PrCs that get MWP, so unless the cleric has other PrC plans that could also be an option.
Prestige Paladin can be entered at level 7, Radiant Servant of Pelor at 8. Both require a feat, but they're both quite good and don't lose CL.
Going for a Crusader dip and into Ruby Knight Vindicator is also a good option, if you can get past the fluff requirement.

[Darrin]

Who are you binding for longsword proficiency? Andras isn't available until 7th.

Anyone have a decent UMD check? A wand of master's touch (750 GP, Spell Compendium) will fix the proficiency issue. Binding Karsus lets you use spell-trigger items, but that doesn't really solve the "have to bind specific vestige" problem.

Psychic reformation for the dwarf?

[Arael666]

The cleric could change his deity for one with war domain and not blow his feat, all he needs is a geas/quest.

[Big Fau]

Who are you binding for longsword proficiency? Andras isn't available until 7th.

Improved Binding most likely.

[Khedrac]

Is there any way to get stackable improving weapon threat range in 3.5 material?


Disciple of Dispater is the classic way. There's also Psychic Weapon Master.

Unfortunately Disciple of Dispater is 3.0 not 3.5 and so it's adaptation to 3.5 is subject to the DM decisions.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Unfortunately Disciple of Dispater is 3.0 not 3.5 and so it's adaptation to 3.5 is subject to the DM decisions.
Anything is subject to DM decisions, including the availability of PrCs. Disciple of Dispater is about as easy to update as a class can be (a feat and a skill got renamed, that's it), so it's hardly worth mentioning (and a lot less work than adapting Weapons of Legacy for use in a 3.5 game).

[Telok]

Since it's a "powerful" magic weapon with a history try buying a casting of Legend Lore and/or Analyze Dewomer to find out what it does and what the future costs will be before you sacrifice permanent character abilities to it. Consider taking Leadership at 6th for a bard cohort, it may offer better bonuses for less cost than a legacy weapon.

3.5 suffers from having non-scaling abilities with serious prerequsites. Generally unless you build for something and get it at the earliest level available you're losing level appropriate abilities for stuff that's too weak to help you. Tome of Battle material mitigates this somewhat for initiator levels, but it's still not always worth it. Weapons of Legacy are bad when they require attack bonus sacrifices in exchange for abilities that rely on attacking, and the designers loved doing stuff like that.

Edit: I think I found it. It will become a +2 keen shocking longsword, -2 attack bonus, -3 save bonus, -16 hp. At level 8 you get continual Unseen Servant, at 10 you get Lesser Restoration 3/day, at 13 you get +10 diplomacy. Sell the sword and hire a bard.

Oh, at level 5 it's Detect Thoughts 1/day with a crap DC. Level 16 is Summon Monster 5 (good aligned) 1/day. Level 20 is Dominate Monster 1/day at DC 23. Crap stuff at the levels you get it. In order to get the middle range stuff you have to take a critical hit from a CR 8+ foe on purpose. To get the high end stuff you have to do a diplomacy quest.

[Thurbane]

Improved Binding most likely.
100% correct.

There are a few cleric PrCs that get MWP, so unless the cleric has other PrC plans that could also be an option.
Prestige Paladin can be entered at level 7, Radiant Servant of Pelor at 8. Both require a feat, but they're both quite good and don't lose CL.
Going for a Crusader dip and into Ruby Knight Vindicator is also a good option, if you can get past the fluff requirement.
The Cleric is only allowed core-only sources, so most PrC options are out. (We were allowed one core and one non-core character each. I run the Binder and Cleric, and another guy runs the Fighter and Scout).

In this case "core" does not extend to UA material in the SRD, including Prestige Paladin.

Edit: I think I found it. It will become a +2 keen shocking longsword, -2 attack bonus, -3 save bonus, -16 hp. At level 8 you get continual Unseen Servant, at 10 you get Lesser Restoration 3/day, at 13 you get +10 diplomacy. Sell the sword and hire a bard.

Oh, at level 5 it's Detect Thoughts 1/day with a crap DC. Level 16 is Summon Monster 5 (good aligned) 1/day. Level 20 is Dominate Monster 1/day at DC 23. Crap stuff at the levels you get it. In order to get the middle range stuff you have to take a critical hit from a CR 8+ foe on purpose. To get the high end stuff you have to do a diplomacy quest.
I was actually trying to avoid spoilers about it's abilities. I could always read the module if I wanted to know OOC.

As it turns out, it's all a bit moot, as this game looks like it's on indefinite hiatus...which is a bummer, I was really enjoying my Binder. :smallfrown:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If the game starts back up again, I second (or, like, fifteenth) the motion of selling it. Or better yet, take Ancestral Relic and sacrifice it for gold. If it's intelligent and complains, then smack it upside the hilt and tell it that it's for its own good. Better off dead than a non-houseruled legacy weapon. You're just putting it out of its misery.

If the DM is willing to houserule away all of the debilitating penalties, it might be worthwhile -- assuming you can actually find someone who can wield the damned thing.

[nyjastul69]

Anything is subject to DM decisions, including the availability of PrCs. Disciple of Dispater is about as easy to update as a class can be (a feat and a skill got renamed, that's it), so it's hardly worth mentioning (and a lot less work than adapting Weapons of Legacy for use in a 3.5 game).

Weapons of Legacy needs no adaption to work in a 3.5 game. It's a 3.5 resource. DoD on the other hand is from a 3.0 product and should require some adjustment from the DM, as the rules state. This adjustment might very well be to put DoD into compliance with the non-stacking crit ranges as is standard in 3.5. As opposed to allowing crit stacking per 3.0 rules. The rules are very different in this regard.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Weapons of Legacy needs no adaption to work in a 3.5 game. It's a 3.5 resource.
It's a joke. Weapons of Legacy suck so bad, you need to houserule them to make people use them. Nobody on this thread has encouraged their use; replies 2, 3 and 4 all recommend not to (and then mine at 5).

As for the adaptation of DoD: It makes sense to allow the threat range to stack, as with the official Psychic Weapon Master conversion to 3.5. If you make a big deal of adapting the PrC, you're probably looking for it to be useful and relevant in your game. At that point, nerfing it badly is counterproductive.

Also note that DoD doesn't stack with keen, but does stack with Improved Critical. That is a rule specific to the Iron Power ability, separate from 'default stacking' and 'default nonstacking'. You might say it's Dispater's special version of keen, for iron weapons only.

[Zanos]

It's a joke. Weapons of Legacy suck so bad, you need to houserule them to make people use them. Nobody on this thread has encouraged their use; replies 2, 3 and 4 all recommend not to (and then mine at 5).
For the record, I would prefer to sell it in the same situation, but the prewritten nature of the adventure is probably such that the party loses if they do because they can't hit The Emperor with The McGuffin if they don't have someone attuned to it.

[Troacctid]

I mean, it's still an adamantine longsword. Nothing wrong with keeping it around. Give it to the dwarf as a backup weapon, and maybe you use it to carve through a wall or punch through a golem's DR.

Dollars to donuts it's not worth the cost to upgrade it, though.

[Tiktakkat]

So . . .

There is a reason the DM cannot change it to a weapon one of the PCs actually uses?

Never mind the reason the DM didn't make it clear during character creation that a leadership focused martial type would be a Good Thing (TM) for someone to run.

Having failed to prepare the group for such a specific item it is pretty ridiculous to not at least adapt it for the existing PCs.

[Thurbane]

So . . .

There is a reason the DM cannot change it to a weapon one of the PCs actually uses?

Never mind the reason the DM didn't make it clear during character creation that a leadership focused martial type would be a Good Thing (TM) for someone to run.

Having failed to prepare the group for such a specific item it is pretty ridiculous to not at least adapt it for the existing PCs.

DM is my fiance having her first actual attempt at DMing, and running a prewritten module. I'm willing to cut her a lot of slack.

I'm happy to go with the module as intended, even if a legacy weapon is suboptimal.

If we get back to th game, one of us will eventually do the ritual - probably the binder, as he is Cha/party face focused, and won't have to invest feats or skill ranks anyway.

[Tiktakkat]

First time DM is understandable.
Just explain that it is okay to customize a published adventure for the party, and change the weapon type to something a PC already uses.
As for the Diplomacy requirement, I am familiar with the weapon, and it would be a relatively minor tweak to change the requirement to Intimidate, as well as adjusting two of its abilities to be based on that instead of Diplomacy. Some of the flavor text would need to be changed as well, but it would have virtually no impact on the adventure as written.

[Telok]

I was actually trying to avoid spoilers about it's abilities. I could always read the module if I wanted to know OOC.

Sorry about that. I'll try to be better about it in the future.

It's just that the weapons of legacy are so bad with all the penalties that there's generally no way to justify using them. For this one -2 to all attacks, -3 to saves and losing 16 hp for some circumstantially useful non-combat abilities is just horrid. Players really need to know what's happening with their character with this before they go through with it.

[Thurbane]

All good. :smallsmile:

General consensus is Legacy Weapons are terrible (which I kind of already knew), unless they are customized.

If we pick up the game again, might have a word with the DM regarding some possible changes to make it better for our party...

...sadly, our D&D group, which is currently down to three (1 DM, 2 players) is about to go on hiatus for 2 months while one of the players is overseas.

Our group used to be 6 regulars, but has dwindled due to a combo of people moving far away, and also having out kinds. :smallfrown:

Hopefully when we resume in 2 months time, one of the previous players will be joining back into the group. It looks like I'll be DMing, and picking up on a 4th level sandbox campaign I was running about 2 year back.