How do beguilers maintain their tier 3 status? [Archive]

AvatarVecna

2016-07-05, 08:30 PM

Tier 4 is generally a one-trick-pony, and that trick is usually dealing damage; alternatively, it is a character who is capable of reasonably contributing to a significant portion of (but not all) situations.

Tier 3 is either a character who is capable of reasonably contributing in any situation, or a character with a handful of powerful tricks that allow them to contribute in a significant portion of situations.

Tier 2 is a character who is highly versatile and powerful (like a particularly powerful/versatile T3 character), but also has access to some legitimately game-breaking tricks.

So where does the Beguiler fall?

Let's start out with the basic chassis: a beguiler is very similar to a sorcerer (poor BAB, bad Fort/bad Ref/good Will, 9th lvl spontaneous arcane casting), but it's also better in some areas of the basic chassis (it has a d6 HD, 6+Int skills per level, and has a good skill list). Furthermore, because the Beguiler is an Int-based caster, they're going to have a lot of skills. You'll probably start with a 20 Int (8 with either race or aging boosting you); that's 11 skills per level, which is enough to support your spellcaster role (Concentration, Knowledge: Arcana, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device) as well as either the face role (Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Speak Language) or the scout role (Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, along with the Trapfinding class feature). And whichever role you didn't select can be covered by parts of your spell list. Oh yeah, let's not forget that Beguiler's get Silent Spell and Still Spell as bonus feats.

But let's talk about the biggest issue: what's a beguiler to do if they're up against foes immune to mind-affecting? And yes, this is a potential problem from first level and onward: undead like zombies and skeletons are a classic low-level foe, and have type-based immunity to mind-affecting. So what can a beguiler do in an undead campaign from level 1 to 20, if they can't use their mind-affecting spells? What non-mind-affecting spells do beguilers even have?

Spells in red are mind-affecting, and thus aren't allowed for our undead-hating beguiler. Spells in blue are particularly powerful/versatile/useful, and will be detailed later on. If a spell qualifies for both colors, only red will be shown (since it disqualifies it for the undead-hating beguiler, even though it's useful otherwise).

0th lvl

Dancing Lights
Daze
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Message
Open/Close
Read Magic

1st lvl

Charm Person
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
Hypnotism
Mage Armor
Obscuring Mist
Rouse
Silent Image
Sleep
Undetectable Alignment
Whelm

2nd lvl

Blinding Color Surge
Blur
Daze Monster
Detect Thoughts
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Hypnotic Pattern
Invisibility
Knock
Mirror Image
Misdirection
See Invisibility
Silence
Spider Climb
Stay The Hand
Touch Of Idiocy
Vertigo
Whelming Blast

3rd lvl

Arcane Sight
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Crown Of Veils
Deep Slumber
Dispel Magic
Displacement
Glibness
Halt
Haste
Hesitate
Hold Person
Inevitable Defeat
Invisibility Sphere
Legion Of Sentinels
Major Image
Nondetection
Slow
Suggestion
Vertigo Field
Zone Of Silence

4th lvl

Charm Monster
Confusion
Crushing Despair
Freedom Of Movement
Greater Invisibility
Greater Mirror Image
Locate Creature
Mass Whelm
Phantom Battle
Rainbow Pattern
Solid Fog

5th lvl

Break Enchantment
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Friend To Foe
Hold Monster
Incite Riot
Mind Fog
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Seeming
Sending
Swift Etherealness

6th lvl

Greater Dispel Magic
Mass Suggestion
Mislead
Overwhelm
Repulsion
Shadow Walk
True Seeing
Veil

7th lvl

Ethereal Jaunt
Greater Arcane Sight
Mass Hold Person
Mass Invisibility
Phase Door
Power Word Blind
Project Image
Spell Turning

8th lvl

Demand
Discern Location
Mind Blank
Moment Of Prescience
Power Word Stun
Scintillating Pattern
Screen

9th lvl

Dominate Monster
Etherealness
Foresight
Mass Hold Monster
Power Word Kill
Time Stop

Every spell on this list is one that the Beguiler knows and can cast spontaneously. They can also add to this list with Advanced/Eclectic Learning, but even with just the spells in blue (the ones I think are good, whether by community approval or just personally), the Beguiler is comparable to an equal-level sorcerer as far as spells known goes...and the Beguiler's list (combined with their class features and skills) allows them to be a top-notch battlefield controller, face, and scout, all without touching the Mind-Affecting portion of their list, or dumpster-diving for other spells. And if that mind-affecting part of their list is available? Welcome to the wonderful world of minionmancy!

In short, a straight Beguiler 20 is a solid T3 class, with their ability to fill three separate roles efficiently and well, and can potentially break into T2 pretty easily even without leaving their class. However, if we look beyond just what the beguiler has on its own, we can also see other things that it combines well with: Beguiler is quite arguably the best base class with which to enter the Shadowcraft Mage PrC, a PrC well-known for its game-breaking capabilities even if you don't find a way to fudge Miracles by level 13; similarly, while the Ultimate Magus is designed with a Wizard/Sorcerer in mind, it works even better for a Wizard/Beguiler, since such a combo would be Int-SAD (it's still a theurge class, but it's decent enough).

Beheld

2016-07-05, 09:35 PM

If you are going to list "advantages to the Beguiler" then you really have to have "has the best possible spell acquisition system" A Beguiler is a lot like a better in every way except spell choice Sorcerer who picked a specific set of spells known and then also got a bunch of bonus spells. But over and above that, they also have literally the best possible way to add spells to their spells known of anyone. Certainly, they could buy rune staves, and use them better than a Sorcerer to cast from an even wider list, or something like that, to add spells the same way a Sorcerer does, or, in the alternative, they can just not do that, and instead, they can spend a feat for one spell per level, or they take one level dips in 5 different PrCs and add 5 spells of each level. Or they can just dive into one PrC early, get some okay spells and some great spells leveling up, and then at level 11 cast spontaneously off the entire Cleric list.

The Beguiler class on it's own is just a better Sorcerer than the Sorcerer, sure, (until your DM bans Charm and Dominate because you wreck the game, then it's "only" better from levels 1-11) but the best advantage to the Beguiler is that you can just have other spells on your list whenever you damn well please.

Or they could literally just take the Apprentice Feat, and have literally everything a Sorcerer has, but then on top of that, also the entire Beguiler list (-the two worst spells on each level).

Inevitability

2016-07-06, 07:29 AM

You can't really go from T3 to T2.

T2 classes have no versatility, and are simply one-trick-gamebreakers. T3 classes, on the other hand, have nearly no game-breaking capabilities, but a LOT of versatility. The only possible rise for a T3 is to T1, which is a bit too ambitious for Beguiler.

I'm fairly sure a binder able to bind Zceryll goes from T3 to T2.

MisterKaws

2016-07-06, 07:42 AM

I'm fairly sure a binder able to bind Zceryll goes from T3 to T2.

It goes from T2 in regards to power, but it still holds its place as a T3. Kinda like a Hybrid, honestly.

We should really fix the tier system and divide it in versatility and power...

Inevitability

2016-07-06, 08:37 AM

It goes from T2 in regards to power, but it still holds its place as a T3. Kinda like a Hybrid, honestly.

We should really fix the tier system and divide it in versatility and power...

Except that, according to the definition you yourself gave a few posts ago, T2 power with T3 versatility shouldn't be able to exist.

T2 classes have no versatility, and are simply one-trick-gamebreakers. T3 classes, on the other hand, have nearly no game-breaking capabilities, but a LOT of versatility. The only possible rise for a T3 is to T1, which is a bit too ambitious for Beguiler.

So what is it? Can a T3 class become T2, or are binders with Zceryll actually T1?

MisterKaws

2016-07-06, 08:46 AM

Except that, according to the definition you yourself gave a few posts ago, T2 power with T3 versatility shouldn't be able to exist.

So what is it? Can a T3 class become T2, or are binders with Zceryll actually T1?

They are T2's who can change into T3 really easily. Zceryll is a T2 trick because it breaks the game, but is easily stopped by a DM who knows what they're doing. T2s who have their tricks stopped usually turn into "effective" T3s in regards to power, but they'd still lose to true T3s in regards to versatility.

In short, I hate this convoluted tier system for being so hard to explain.

eggynack

2016-07-06, 08:56 AM

I don't really get the point in hewing so closely to the exact tier definitions. The tier system works well because the best classes just happen to have these specific qualities, and the worst classes have different and also well defined qualities, and classes in the middle have some top tier quality but not all of it. But the fact that versatility is better than power in this game isn't because of some intrinsic property of the universe. It's just because sorcerers happen to not get that much power in exchange for the versatility lost in comparison to the wizard. One could imagine a sorcerer in tier one by dint of significantly greater power than they have now, to the extent that their power practically, if not actually, acts like higher spell levels. One could imagine a wizard below tier one because, in spite of their vast array of spells, all those spells happen to suck at their job.

My point is, these definitions should be considered in a descriptive, rather than prescriptive, fashion. Instead of asking whether a new arbitrary class fits these exact definitions or those exact definitions, we should really just be asking, "Is this class better than the classes in this tier, and worse than the classes in that tier." There's a certain power to the definitions as they are, and that can guide us, but a clean definition like the one the tier system has is never going to be all encompassing. So, the core question is, is the beguiler better than the worst tier two class? If they are, then they're tier two. And, are they better than the best tier four class? If not, then they're tier four. If they're worse than the tier two and better than the tier four, then they're tier three. And there can be some assessment around the edges with regard to classes within tier three. The idea that we should be this in thrall to the exact words by folks nearly a decade ago seems ridiculous. So much about optimization has changed since then.

Beheld

2016-07-06, 09:16 AM

I don't really get the point in hewing so closely to the exact tier definitions. The tier system works well because the best classes just happen to have these specific qualities, and the worst classes have different and also well defined qualities, and classes in the middle have some top tier quality but not all of it. But the fact that versatility is better than power in this game isn't because of some intrinsic property of the universe. It's just because sorcerers happen to not get that much power in exchange for the versatility lost in comparison to the wizard. One could imagine a sorcerer in tier one by dint of significantly greater power than they have now, to the extent that their power practically, if not actually, acts like higher spell levels. One could imagine a wizard below tier one because, in spite of their vast array of spells, all those spells happen to suck at their job.

Yeah, imagine a universe where Wizards were a spell level behind Sorcerers, instead of Sorcerers behind a spell level. Instead of everyone talking about how amazing versatility is, people would talk about how only spell level matters, and then how basic spell acquisition tactics makes the Sorcerer more than equal to the Wizard.

The Wizard does get better ability to cast long duration buffs than a Sorcerer, sure. But the Sorcerer should get better ability to use short duration multiple casting buffs and in combat battlefield control and attack spells. The reason they don't is because on Odd levels Wizards cast spells an entire spell level higher, and on even levels Sorcerers cast spontaneously from one spell known, and therefore don't actually cast spontaneously at all.

Which is part of the reason that the Tier system fails so spectacularly when it comes to Beguilers and Dread Necros. Because the one guy who wrote it was thinking of them like Sorcerers who picked certain spells, and are therefore "less versatile" (and therefore less powerful) than Sorcerers, even though what they actually are are Sorcerers with way more spells known of every spell level, and the ability to add any spells known you ever want at any time.

eggynack

2016-07-06, 10:39 AM

Yeah, imagine a universe where Wizards were a spell level behind Sorcerers, instead of Sorcerers behind a spell level. Instead of everyone talking about how amazing versatility is, people would talk about how only spell level matters, and then how basic spell acquisition tactics makes the Sorcerer more than equal to the Wizard.

The Wizard does get better ability to cast long duration buffs than a Sorcerer, sure. But the Sorcerer should get better ability to use short duration multiple casting buffs and in combat battlefield control and attack spells. The reason they don't is because on Odd levels Wizards cast spells an entire spell level higher, and on even levels Sorcerers cast spontaneously from one spell known, and therefore don't actually cast spontaneously at all.
I wouldn't go that far. Sorcerers are indeed, as the tier system says, weaker for their lesser versatility. Even a spell level behind, wizards would still have access to that massive pool of spells, and with it be capable of long term stuff that sorcerers just can't do efficiently. My usual example of an area where sorcerers are lacking in this way is planar binding. Making good use of planar binding takes so many spells. You need the binding itself, and maybe the lesser and greater versions, you need the magic circle, and you need the dimensional anchor, along with maybe some way to give you a higher chance of success. For a wizard, getting all those things together is trivial, while for a sorcerer it's incredibly costly, and it's a very powerful spell. Wizards get a lot of power in off-time stuff, and quite a bit of power from being able to vary tactics, and some power from being able to take spells which are great only at low levels, and even some sorcerer-comparable versatility from the sheer variety of spells available each day. You can even consider the benefit of swapping low level spells from active attack spells to more passive long term buffs.

All this to say that giving the sorcerer the spell level advantage probably isn't enough. Yes, it's one advantage of the wizard, but the tier system is nowhere close to wholly wrong in ascribing those other benefits to the class. But, y'know, give it another level or two, maybe three, and the sorcerer would probably be on top. Power is a sort of versatility in and of itself, after all. Access to higher level spells means that you can do things the other class can not, and that, beyond just providing sheer brute force, defines things that you are uniquely capable of relative to the other class. So yes, the general claim is correct, that a shift in the balance of power would be sufficient to change the tier list, definitions and all, but I disagree with the specific fix given.

Which is part of the reason that the Tier system fails so spectacularly when it comes to Beguilers and Dread Necros. Because the one guy who wrote it was thinking of them like Sorcerers who picked certain spells, and are therefore "less versatile" (and therefore less powerful) than Sorcerers, even though what they actually are are Sorcerers with way more spells known of every spell level, and the ability to add any spells known you ever want at any time.

It really depends. The way it should be measured, really, is that an ideal spell list for a sorcerer should be constructed at a few levels, traditionally 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, but it could be otherwise, and that should be compared to what a beguiler is capable of. If the beguiler list is better than most lists a sorcerer could construct, then that's just about the end of it, and if the sorcerer list is generally superior, that's the end of it the other way. Looking at the beguiler list, it looks like it starts out a lot better than it ends up. With second, third, and maybe fourth level spells, you have a list that any sorcerer would be supremely envious of. But then, fifth and forward, the list starts pulling more from the back half of possible sorcerer options. They're good spells, don't get me wrong, but they're just not quite on that same level. And not having the polymorph line really isn't ideal.

Beheld

2016-07-06, 12:14 PM

All this to say that giving the sorcerer the spell level advantage probably isn't enough.

You misunderstand, I wasn't saying that would be true about the power, just that it is what people would say. I am criticizing both the Sorcerer and Wizard class as written by WotC (because they clearly had no idea what they were doing in balancing those two) and also the way people evaluating balance tend to latch onto specific weird things and then make them the entire facet of their analysis.

This is an example of a Sorcerer that I think is pretty fairly balanced with a Wizard: Sorcerer (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=472146#472146)

Certainly the theoretical height of the Wizard is greater, since you can have more all day buffs cast, but this is a character that genuinely gets to cast spontaneously off a list of more than one choice, and the advantages of spontaneous application of 30 minute or 2 hours buffs rather than having more all day buffs is a reasonable trade off to have. And being able to target all saves or none with the best general spell that targets that save spontaneously is comparable to having the ability to sometimes prepare the specific best spell that targets that monster, but not always (or even particularly often) having enough advance knowledge to do so, and most of the time preparing spells that are general or generally specific (IE spells that are likely to help since you are in the Abyss, but aren't tailored to the specific demons you might be fighting).

And as an aside, Planar Binding is a terrible example of Wizards getting better usage of downtime spells, you should use Wall of Stone or Stoneshape or Fabricate. Planar Binding is so good that if your DM lets you cast it at all it should be the only level 6 spell you cast at all ever on any day no matter what. That favors sorcerers. And if you have to pay a 4th level spell known and a third level spell known (or if you just take an eternal wand of it, whatever) then who cares, because you are still going to be casting it every single day with all your spell slots.

It really depends. The way it should be measured, really, is that an ideal spell list for a sorcerer should be constructed at a few levels, traditionally 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, but it could be otherwise, and that should be compared to what a beguiler is capable of. If the beguiler list is better than most lists a sorcerer could construct, then that's just about the end of it, and if the sorcerer list is generally superior, that's the end of it the other way. Looking at the beguiler list, it looks like it starts out a lot better than it ends up. With second, third, and maybe fourth level spells, you have a list that any sorcerer would be supremely envious of. But then, fifth and forward, the list starts pulling more from the back half of possible sorcerer options. They're good spells, don't get me wrong, but they're just not quite on that same level. And not having the polymorph line really isn't ideal.

I think you misunderstand my point. A Beguiler can literally just duplicate the relevant parts of a Sorcerer list.

Let's say tomorrow, they print a First level spell called "Color Spray but the bestest" and that spell does the same thing Color Spray does, but has no HD cap and is party friendly. Well then the Sorcerer knows 2 spells known of First level, so he takes that spell and one other. And then the Beguiler takes the Apprentice feat and knows that spell and the entire Beguiler list, and at level 2, he gives up the worst level 1 Beguiler spell (Whelm) and he learns the second best Sorcerer spell. And at level 3 he gives up Color Spray, because he has the better version of it, and he gets the third best level 1 Sorcerer/Wizard spell, the same as the Sorcerer. And this continues, with the Beguiler always having the two best Sorcerer/Wizard spells of each level that aren't on the Beguiler list + the entire Beguiler list.

And yeah, eventually he gets A Domain, and then he casts Substitute Domain periodically to have whatever domain he thinks he wants that day in addition to the two best Sorcerer/Wizard spells per day and the Beguiler list.

So yeah, Beguilers strongly approximate a Sorcerer who has all the best Sorcerer spells at every level. I mean, a level 18 Sorcerer has one spell known, and aside from how the Beguiler could have domains, and could therefore already have Shapechange, if the best 9th level spell is Gate, and the Sorcerer takes Gate, then the Beguiler loses Power Word: Kill for Gate, and he has Gate, Time Stop, Dominate Monster, Etherealness, Foresight, and Mass Hold Monster.

And sure that level 18 Sorcerer totally has 3 7th level spells, where the Beguiler only has Spell Turning, Project Image, Power Word Blind, Phase Door, Greater Arcane Sight, Ethereal Jaunt, and two spells that can be any spells in the entire game. And so whatever that third spell is, it can totally be a good spell that the Beguiler doesn't have... but it's also a level 7 spell that he doesn't have at level 18 when he has Gate.

Also if you are really comparing spells for Sorcerer/Beguiler, you should probably just do one every spell level, or at least only hit even levels. Comparing the spell list of casters who are casting a spell level lower than everyone else in the game at that level seems weird.

Gnaeus

2016-07-06, 01:02 PM

It really depends. The way it should be measured, really, is that an ideal spell list for a sorcerer should be constructed at a few levels, traditionally 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, but it could be otherwise, and that should be compared to what a beguiler is capable of. If the beguiler list is better than most lists a sorcerer could construct, then that's just about the end of it, and if the sorcerer list is generally superior, that's the end of it the other way. Looking at the beguiler list, it looks like it starts out a lot better than it ends up. With second, third, and maybe fourth level spells, you have a list that any sorcerer would be supremely envious of. But then, fifth and forward, the list starts pulling more from the back half of possible sorcerer options. They're good spells, don't get me wrong, but they're just not quite on that same level. And not having the polymorph line really isn't ideal.

Disagree. That method of ranking completely ignores the main point of the tier system, which is equating things at equivalent optimization.

The beguiler list should be compared with the low op sorcerer list. The guy who took lightning bolt AND fireball at 3 so that he can blast in multiple ways with his spell focus: evocation.

The ideal sorcerer list should be compared with the beguiler list + ideal spells chosen with advanced learning + a good domain or one of the other good spell list expanding methods. The sorcerer with planar binding and wings of flurry and wings of cover is NOT at equivalent optimization to the beguiler straight out of the book.

eggynack

2016-07-06, 04:17 PM

You misunderstand, I wasn't saying that would be true about the power, just that it is what people would say. I am criticizing both the Sorcerer and Wizard class as written by WotC (because they clearly had no idea what they were doing in balancing those two) and also the way people evaluating balance tend to latch onto specific weird things and then make them the entire facet of their analysis.
Fair enough, I guess. I'd figure that they'd fit their opinions to match what the actual tier ranking looks like, but it makes sense as a generalized criticism.

And as an aside, Planar Binding is a terrible example of Wizards getting better usage of downtime spells, you should use Wall of Stone or Stoneshape or Fabricate. Planar Binding is so good that if your DM lets you cast it at all it should be the only level 6 spell you cast at all ever on any day no matter what. That favors sorcerers. And if you have to pay a 4th level spell known and a third level spell known (or if you just take an eternal wand of it, whatever) then who cares, because you are still going to be casting it every single day with all your spell slots.
You don't necessarily have to be working with the best possible planar binding options. I was figuring strong but not game breaking creatures to act as extra actions, rather than crazy wish loops. And it's a great example in that context, cause it's definitely not gonna be your only spell when it's not crushing the game. And, of course, whether you can do nothing but bind or not, the wizard has the option of simultaneously binding a bunch and casting all kindsa other spells. Also, them stone spells are the bad examples. Those spells are sweet in-combat, for all their capabilities out of combat. I like planar binding for its weird multi-spell nature, but the best one is likely some divination.

Let's say tomorrow, they print a First level spell called "Color Spray but the bestest" and that spell does the same thing Color Spray does, but has no HD cap and is party friendly. Well then the Sorcerer knows 2 spells known of First level, so he takes that spell and one other. And then the Beguiler takes the Apprentice feat and knows that spell and the entire Beguiler list, and at level 2, he gives up the worst level 1 Beguiler spell (Whelm) and he learns the second best Sorcerer spell. And at level 3 he gives up Color Spray, because he has the better version of it, and he gets the third best level 1 Sorcerer/Wizard spell, the same as the Sorcerer. And this continues, with the Beguiler always having the two best Sorcerer/Wizard spells of each level that aren't on the Beguiler list + the entire Beguiler list.
Okay, I thought about this for way too long, cause it seemed weird to me that a beguiler would be teaching another beguiler not-beguiler spells, but I don't think this works. Beguilers don't pull off the sorcerer/wizard list, so when they learn a new spell in place of an old one, it can't be off that list. It has to be off the beguiler list, which means that it does nothing, cause the beguiler already knows all the beguiler spells. The game doesn't say you're learning these spells from off-list, so you aren't. Your reading would actually produce some absurdity besides that. Consider the fact that the sorcerer has the exact same language associated with its spell retraining ability, and that there's no meaningful distinction between divine and arcane spells in these terms. In other words, this would let the sorcerer pick up cleric and druid spells on odd levels. Not overpowering, but really weird.

Also if you are really comparing spells for Sorcerer/Beguiler, you should probably just do one every spell level, or at least only hit even levels. Comparing the spell list of casters who are casting a spell level lower than everyone else in the game at that level seems weird.

It was an arbitrary selection of levels, but it's also an oddly good one. Going odd/even/odd/even means that you're selecting both levels where the sorcerer is even, and levels where the beguiler is ahead. The 20 thing obviously doesn't fit that mold, but ya gotta have a 9th's accessible level anyway.

Disagree. That method of ranking completely ignores the main point of the tier system, which is equating things at equivalent optimization.

The beguiler list should be compared with the low op sorcerer list. The guy who took lightning bolt AND fireball at 3 so that he can blast in multiple ways with his spell focus: evocation.

The ideal sorcerer list should be compared with the beguiler list + ideal spells chosen with advanced learning + a good domain or one of the other good spell list expanding methods. The sorcerer with planar binding and wings of flurry and wings of cover is NOT at equivalent optimization to the beguiler straight out of the book.
I disagree with you also. I partially agree, that this shouldn't necessarily pull from the top, but the tier list assumes average optimization, not low optimization. So, arcane spellsurge and fireball alike aren't likely picks. Just, y'know, practical and potent choices.

Beheld

2016-07-06, 05:03 PM

Fair enough, I guess. I'd figure that they'd fit their opinions to match what the actual tier ranking looks like, but it makes sense as a generalized criticism.

The Tier system itself is an example about how people structure their understanding of class power to the class power of existing classes. If the existing classes had been different from the beginning, then that one guy who spit out a tier system that was structured based on the classes in the game would have structured his conceptions differently and would have spit out a completely different tier classification system.

You don't necessarily have to be working with the best possible planar binding options. I was figuring strong but not game breaking creatures to act as extra actions, rather than crazy wish loops. And it's a great example in that context, cause it's definitely not gonna be your only spell when it's not crushing the game. And, of course, whether you can do nothing but bind or not, the wizard has the option of simultaneously binding a bunch and casting all kindsa other spells. Also, them stone spells are the bad examples. Those spells are sweet in-combat, for all their capabilities out of combat. I like planar binding for its weird multi-spell nature, but the best one is likely some divination.

If what you get is "not game breaking creatures" for extra actions then it is the best spell in the entire game hands down. Those non game breaking creatures amount to 50 CR 13 creatures for every fight of every day, which you'll not at level 11-12 is going to win every single fight hands down. Even if you arbitrarily limit yourself to like, CR 10 creatures or whatever, or even CR 8 creatures, you still get an extra CR 8 creature for every fight for the next 11 or more days for each spell you cast. There is no possible point at which any other spell is worth casting instead of this spell.

Also, while I accept that there exist weirdo's who treat Stoneshape as a no save kill spell, it still remains true that Wall of Stone and Stoneshape provide actual utility.

Okay, I thought about this for way too long, cause it seemed weird to me that a beguiler would be teaching another beguiler not-beguiler spells, but I don't think this works. Beguilers don't pull off the sorcerer/wizard list, so when they learn a new spell in place of an old one, it can't be off that list. It has to be off the beguiler list, which means that it does nothing, cause the beguiler already knows all the beguiler spells. The game doesn't say you're learning these spells from off-list, so you aren't. Your reading would actually produce some absurdity besides that. Consider the fact that the sorcerer has the exact same language associated with its spell retraining ability, and that there's no meaningful distinction between divine and arcane spells in these terms. In other words, this would let the sorcerer pick up cleric and druid spells on odd levels. Not overpowering, but really weird.

But let's be honest here for a minute. You have no actual rules support for any of that, and you just decided it right now because you don't want Beguilers and Dread Necros to have access to the spell lists they patently do have access to.

1) Where on earth did you get the idea that Beguilers mentor was a Beguiler? That is certainly no part of the rules.

2) It isn't "you can only pull off your own list" anywhere, of course you can pull off the list of your Mentor even if he's a Bard and you are a Sorcerer, or out of his spellbook if you are a Sorcerer and he is a Wizard, so why on earth would Beguilers be limited to Beguiler spells when they have a Sorcerer or Wizard Mentor?

3) "It doesn't say you can pull off other lists, so it must be off your own list" Someone forgot how rules work. If the rules say you can do something, you don't make up your own new restrictions that aren't in the rules. The rules say you get an additional spell known. If you are a Beguiler, you can't add a spell you already know, so you have to add a different spell to comply with the rules at all.

4) Of course Sorcerers can switch out their spells for Druid or Clerics spells? It's right in their spell acquisition category. If Sorcerers can't learn Heal, then why on Earth does the Sorcerer entry for where he gets spells known say: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." If your Sorcerer studies Heal, of course he can replace a 7th level spell with Heal.

eggynack

2016-07-06, 05:27 PM

The Tier system itself is an example about how people structure their understanding of class power to the class power of existing classes. If the existing classes had been different from the beginning, they would have come up with different classes.
Probably so. There are overarching structures to the game that reinforce the tier system, like the simple existence of these broad lists to pull from, and the fact that those lists are so heavily supported, such that classes that touch upon those lists gain more power and versatility than other classes, but I do think it's a descriptive system, and not a prescriptive one.

If what you get is "not game breaking creatures" for extra actions then it is the best spell in the entire game hands down. Those non game breaking creatures amount to 50 CR 13 creatures for every fight of every day, which you'll not at level 11-12 is going to win every single fight hands down. Even if you arbitrarily limit yourself to like, CR 10 creatures or whatever, or even CR 8 creatures, you still get an extra CR 8 creature for every fight for the next 11 or more days for each spell you cast. There is no possible point at which any other spell is worth casting instead of this spell.
The first part, maybe. The notion that there's no point in casting something else, completely disagree. Planar binding is great, but it's also very much an out of combat spell. Casting it in preparation for adventuring helps, but on the adventure itself, you do better if you have a strong set of more standard combat and utility spells.

Also, while I accept that there exist weirdo's who treat Stoneshape as a no save kill spell, it still remains true that Wall of Stone and Stoneshape provide actual utility.

Not necessarily as a kill spell. Just as a wall and more moment to moment utility spell. Like, less making castle walls, more just making a ramp to a high up thing. The goal here, in terms of discrepancy between classes, is not only out of combat, but also not something you'd be spamming on an adventuring day. If you could see yourself casting a spell a few times in a day, and if it has a lot of versatility, then it's a prime sorcerer spell. Stoneshape is one of those, so I don't get the idea that it's an example of wizard/sorcerer discrepancy. It makes some sense, cause the sorc might just not know it, but I'd prefer something that's less prime sorcerer real estate.

But let's be honest here for a minute. You have no actual rules support for any of that, and you just decided it right now because you don't want Beguilers and Dread Necros to have access to the spell lists they patently do have access to.
It has pretty simple rules support. Classes learn spells from their list. They don't learn spells from not their list. It's just how casters work. When a sorcerer learns new spells, they come from the sorcerer list. When the beguiler learns new spells, if they learn new spells, they come from the beguiler list. You're just stretching the rules in a really weird way for some reason.

1) Where on earth did you get the idea that Beguilers mentor was a Beguiler? That is certainly no part of the rules.
"The tutelage of a spellcasting mentor grants additional benefits only if the apprentice shares the same class as his mentor." Pretty straightforward. Not all that important for the rules nature of the thing, but it definitely confused me as to the nature of the whole thing.

2) It isn't "you can only pull off your own list" anywhere, of course you can pull off the list of your Mentor even if he's a Bard and you are a Sorcerer, or out of his spellbook if you are a Sorcerer and he is a Wizard, so why on earth would Beguilers be limited to Beguiler spells when they have a Sorcerer or Wizard Mentor?
As noted above, gotta be a beguiler mentor. And, beyond that, there's still a limit to what you can learn as a member of a particular class. I wouldn't think that a bard can teach a wizard non-wizard spells any more than I'd think that a beguiler can be taught non-beguiler spells, so this isn't really an inconsistency in my reasoning you're pointing out.

3) "It doesn't say you can pull off other lists, so it must be off your own list" Someone forgot how rules work. If the rules say you can do something, you don't make up your own new restrictions that aren't in the rules. The rules say you get an additional spell known. If you are a Beguiler, you can't add a spell you already know, so you have to add a different spell to comply with the rules at all.
Now you're just stretching the text to encompass the fact that the beguiler doesn't really get benefit here. There's no law that says that you gotta get some benefit from the feats you take. As a general rule, beguiler spells are from the beguiler list. Things can give a beguiler not-beguiler spells, but it's gotta be explicit, not just something you're assuming out of nowhere.

4) Of course Sorcerers can switch out their spells for Druid or Clerics spells? It's right in their spell acquisition category. If Sorcerers can't learn Heal, then why on Earth does the Sorcerer entry for where he gets spells known say: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." If your Sorcerer studies Heal, of course he can replace a 7th level spell with Heal.
I'm not talking about things that a sorcerer's studied an unusual amount. I'm talking about random and arbitrary cleric spells. Ones where the sorcerer just said, "I think I'll take this spell." No permission either, cause we're working purely off of the replacement text rather than the learning new spells text. Also, neither the beguiler nor apprentice has that text. So, pointing out a place where the text explicitly points out that you can do a thing only highlights that thing's absence on the beguiler.

Troacctid

2016-07-06, 05:35 PM

1) Where on earth did you get the idea that Beguilers mentor was a Beguiler? That is certainly no part of the rules.
Yes it is. It's required by the Apprentice feat.

3) "It doesn't say you can pull off other lists, so it must be off your own list" Someone forgot how rules work. If the rules say you can do something, you don't make up your own new restrictions that aren't in the rules. The rules say you get an additional spell known. If you are a Beguiler, you can't add a spell you already know, so you have to add a different spell to comply with the rules at all.
On the other hand, the text of the beguiler class specifies that your spells known come from the beguiler spell list and those spells that you have selected for your advanced learning. If the feat doesn't contradict that, then the restriction should still hold.

4) Of course Sorcerers can switch out their spells for Druid or Clerics spells? It's right in their spell acquisition category. If Sorcerers can't learn Heal, then why on Earth does the Sorcerer entry for where he gets spells known say: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study." If your Sorcerer studies Heal, of course he can replace a 7th level spell with Heal.
That line is generally interpreted to refer to sorcerer/wizard spells from unusual sources, like obscure scrolls, individual research, or the Magic Books of Faerun. Note the sentence immediately following the one you quoted: "For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level." This interpretation is supported by other textual evidence as well, but I don't want to go too deep into it because it's kind of a tangent.

noce

2016-07-07, 05:30 AM

I know the thread has shifted towards an "apprentice feat abusing" war, but this has nothing to do with beguilers being T3 or not, since come on, beguilers learning from a wizard is like bards learning from a sorcerer.

So then.

Capable of doing one thing quite well: check. They are excellent in mind affecting.
while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate: check. They have buffs, battlefield control and can pick non mind affecting, non will based, or no sr spells with advanced learing.
or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area: quite. Out of combat, they can do all things indeed, having the highest skill points per level bar factotum, and one of the widest skill list. And their spell list compliments perfectly their skill list (knock, invisibility, silent still glibness...).
Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter: check. A beguiler can beat in a single round any enemy not immune to mind affecting, if it fails the save.
Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so: check. Rainbow Servant and Shadowcraft Mage are perfectly RAW ways to break the game with a beguiler.
Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult: check. Fill the battlefield with undead and constructs, the beguiler is not screwed but definitely hampered.

In my opinion, beguiler is the highest class in Tier 3, since it meets every definition of the tier at the same time, but still Tier 3. It simply does not meet any definition given in Tier 2.
This doesn't mean it's inferior, say, to sorcerer. I think it's quite the opposite, with beguiler being more versatile, more out of combat friendly, and more fun to play.

EDIT: Also, bear in mind that you can cast pretty much any wizard spell you want with the appropriate runestaff and maximizing UMD. This costs you a few thousands gold, but definitely doable if you really want that wonderful spell you lack.

Gnaeus

2016-07-07, 07:50 AM

I disagree with you also. I partially agree, that this shouldn't necessarily pull from the top, but the tier list assumes average optimization, not low optimization. So, arcane spellsurge and fireball alike aren't likely picks. Just, y'know, practical and potent choices.

No. No no no no no no. You post in way too many of these threads to have such a basic misunderstanding of the tier system. It does NOT assume average optimization. It assumes EQUIVALENT optimization. Blaster fireball sorcerer vs sword and board fighter vs generic beguiler is just as valid a comparison point as top list sorc vs beguiler with expanded list vs a solid fighter build which is just as valid as sorc and beguiler who have both used tricks to bypass all their class limitations and act like spontaneous T1s vs an ubercharger doing damage requiring exponential notation. Average optimization is only a tier assumption if that particular table is of average optimization.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 09:31 AM

No. No no no no no no. You post in way too many of these threads to have such a basic misunderstanding of the tier system. It does NOT assume average optimization. It assumes EQUIVALENT optimization. Blaster fireball sorcerer vs sword and board fighter vs generic beguiler is just as valid a comparison point as top list sorc vs beguiler with expanded list vs a solid fighter build which is just as valid as sorc and beguiler who have both used tricks to bypass all their class limitations and act like spontaneous T1s vs an ubercharger doing damage requiring exponential notation. Average optimization is only a tier assumption if that particular table is of average optimization.
In that case, why are you just blanket assuming low optimization? We don't really have call to use any particular optimization level, so average seems best, cause it's, y'know, average. Besides that, whether the tier system explicitly says so or not, it does assume a certain optimization level. That's just true, because otherwise, it'd look different. A low optimization tier system would have ToB classes and, indeed, list casters, closer to the top, with wizards and sorcerers, classes sometimes indeed given to arbitrary fireballing, closer to the bottom. The high optimization tier system probably has ToB classes drop a bit, cause they don't feature as much power boosting from optimization, and some of the lowest classes might go up a bit, cause there are useful tricks out there. So, there must have been a balance point, and while we cannot perfectly reverse engineer it from the tierings given, we have the general idea that it works mainly with solid and practical choices, ones an optimizer might use in a book restricted game where he doesn't want to use any crazy cheese, but where god wizarding would be fine. You are necessarily wrong because there is only the one tier list. As I recall, there have been a couple of more modern models that attempt to capture that cross section of power and difficulty, but the tier system is not that system.

Inevitability

2016-07-07, 09:57 AM

Beheld

2016-07-07, 10:08 AM

@Apprentice discussion:

I missed the line about your Mentor having to be the same class as you. I maintain that this doesn't change that the feat does in fact grant you additional spells known, and that they can be off any list, but I can see why someone would believe otherwise given that line.

In my opinion, beguiler is the highest class in Tier 3, since it meets every definition of the tier at the same time, but still Tier 3. It simply does not meet any definition given in Tier 2.

Uh.... The Beguiler meets literally every definition of Tier 2. Which definitions do you think it doesn't meet? It can cast like, basically any spell on the Wizard list, it just can only cast a limited number of them, it can break the game in half with it's base list, or add any spells it wants and break the game that way.

In that case, why are you just blanket assuming low optimization?

He's not blanket assuming it. You are insisting on comparing the Beguiler with somehow anti-optimization (where they pick the same spells already on their list with advanced learning) so of course he is pointing out that the correct point of comparison to that is a really bad Sorcerer. If you want to compare "average" optimization, then you have to first define average in a non question begging way, and then compare actual Beguiler spell list optimization of that level.

For example, JaronK defines "average" Beguiler optimization as "takes 20 levels of Beguiler, never spends a feat on spells, never spends money on spells, never tries to expand spell list at all" and then defines "average" Sorcerer optimization as "Takes Planar Binding, has infinite army of Glabrezus" Now, obviously, that's just question begging, if someone is going to hunt around for Wings of Flurry and Arcane Surge, they are going to if they are Beguilers, at the very least take feats and Prestige Classes. And whether that involves just taking every level of Mage of the Arcane Order in a row, or going hyper Shadow Gnome, or just stacking one level after another that grants domains until you have 5 Domains at level 11, that's going to be something. Also you can probably expect to see a Bloodline feat and an Arcane Disciple or two.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 10:44 AM

I missed the line about your Mentor having to be the same class as you. I maintain that this doesn't change that the feat does in fact grant you additional spells known, and that they can be off any list, but I can see why someone would believe otherwise given that line.
As I said awhile back, that's not the source of my claimed issue so much as the simple fact that beguilers learn spells off of the beguiler list. It's just what lists do. The fact that you're learning wizard spells from a beguiler is what initially confounded me about the seeming rules support for picking off-list spells. It's relevant as a clue, but it doesn't seem overly meaningful with regard to the underlying rules.

Uh.... The Beguiler meets literally every definition of Tier 2. Which definitions do you think it doesn't meet? It can cast like, basically any spell on the Wizard list, it just can only cast a limited number of them, it can break the game in half with it's base list, or add any spells it wants and break the game that way.
It can cast a couple of spells on the wizard list without outside resources. And those spells are probably gonna be limited to illusion and enchantment too. It's good, certainly, but it's not on par with the really broad access of a sorcerer. Like, you're faster than a factotum, but you're not getting the variety of a factotum, in terms of these extra spells. With spell adding resources, well, the healer does a lot of the same kinda thing.

He's not blanket assuming it. You are insisting on comparing the Beguiler with somehow anti-optimization (where they pick the same spells already on their list with advanced learning) so of course he is pointing out that the correct point of comparison to that is a really bad Sorcerer. If you want to compare "average" optimization, then you have to first define average in a non question begging way, and then compare actual Beguiler spell list optimization of that level.
That wasn't me insisting on anti-optimization. That was me mostly talking about the sorcerer end, cause it's the part that demands more optimization, and then forgetting to explicitly include advanced learning.

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 10:47 AM

I've always taken tier 1 to mean big spell list with powerful things on it and you prepare spells. Tier 2 means sorcerer (big spell list, but you only get some of the spells, but you get them spontaneously). Tier 1 can prepare for absolutely everything by picking what spells they need. Tier 2 gets enough of the big hitters that they pack a good bit of power. I think beguilers only get to pick a couple of the big hitters. Even with the entire conjuration subschool through the right choice they're still lacking access to the absolutely monstrous spell list that is the wizard/sorc spell list. They're lacking things like shapechange if they pick shades or vice versa (whereas a sorcerer gets 3 choices by 20). More importantly, the sorcerer has the entire wiz/sorc spell list at all levels to pick from when they get new spells known rather than getting one every so often. Getting some of the nice spells like polymorph as a beguiler is very good, but it's just a couple notches below what a sorcerer gets.

AnimeTheCat

2016-07-07, 10:57 AM

I think that something of note would also be to mention that while the Beguiler can learn a handful of any spell in the game, the beguiler is still bound to the vastly smaller Beguiler Spell List whereas the Sorcerer/Wizard do in fact get one of the biggest (If not the biggest spell list) in the game. So any sorcerer can use any wand or scroll of any spell up to the spell level the can cast without failure. The beguiler can only do so with A) spells they know or B) spells from the Beguiler Spell List. That part sort of takes away a big limiting factor from the sorcerer and leaves it on the Beguiler since, if you decide as a beguiler to never learn Gate, you can never cast it from any spell completion magic item.

Caveat: I know that you can't make Gate wands, it is merely an example that came up in the thread earlier.

Beheld

2016-07-07, 11:25 AM

It can cast a couple of spells on the wizard list without outside resources. And those spells are probably gonna be limited to illusion and enchantment too. It's good, certainly, but it's not on par with the really broad access of a sorcerer. Like, you're faster than a factotum, but you're not getting the variety of a factotum, in terms of these extra spells. With spell adding resources, well, the healer does a lot of the same kinda thing.

... The Beguiler can have any (and in some ways every) spell that is in any domain in the game. If they don't just get the entire Cleric list, they can just get a bunch of domains, and then if those aren't the domains you want, you can substitute domain to get other ones. If the Beguiler wants a spell, he can just have it. He can have any spell. He can't have every spell, like a Wizard, but he can have any spell, like a Sorcerer.

I've always taken tier 1 to mean big spell list with powerful things on it and you prepare spells. Tier 2 means sorcerer (big spell list, but you only get some of the spells, but you get them spontaneously). Tier 1 can prepare for absolutely everything by picking what spells they need. Tier 2 gets enough of the big hitters that they pack a good bit of power. I think beguilers only get to pick a couple of the big hitters. Even with the entire conjuration subschool through the right choice they're still lacking access to the absolutely monstrous spell list that is the wizard/sorc spell list. They're lacking things like shapechange if they pick shades or vice versa (whereas a sorcerer gets 3 choices by 20). More importantly, the sorcerer has the entire wiz/sorc spell list at all levels to pick from when they get new spells known rather than getting one every so often. Getting some of the nice spells like polymorph as a beguiler is very good, but it's just a couple notches below what a sorcerer gets.

Beguilers can get Shapechange along with other spells if they want. They can have that and 10 other 9th level spells of their choice at level 18. That's literally just better than what the Sorcerer gets.

That's the point, talking about how Sorcerers can get one spell of a list of hundreds is only better than the Beguiler getting 10 spells off a list of only 100 is only better if: a) The Best spell is not on the list of 100 that the Beguiler gets to choose from. b) That one spell is better than the 10 spells the Beguiler gets.

I think that something of note would also be to mention that while the Beguiler can learn a handful of any spell in the game, the beguiler is still bound to the vastly smaller Beguiler Spell List whereas the Sorcerer/Wizard do in fact get one of the biggest (If not the biggest spell list) in the game. So any sorcerer can use any wand or scroll of any spell up to the spell level the can cast without failure. The beguiler can only do so with A) spells they know or B) spells from the Beguiler Spell List. That part sort of takes away a big limiting factor from the sorcerer and leaves it on the Beguiler since, if you decide as a beguiler to never learn Gate, you can never cast it from any spell completion magic item.

That is a really bad argument to levy when the Beguiler gets UMD as a class skill.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 11:30 AM

... The Beguiler can have any (and in some ways every) spell that is in any domain in the game. If they don't just get the entire Cleric list, they can just get a bunch of domains, and then if those aren't the domains you want, you can substitute domain to get other ones. If the Beguiler wants a spell, he can just have it. He can have any spell. He can't have every spell, like a Wizard, but he can have any spell, like a Sorcerer.

Beguilers can get Shapechange along with other spells if they want. They can have that and 10 other 9th level spells of their choice at level 18. That's literally just better than what the Sorcerer gets.

That's the point, talking about how Sorcerers can get one spell of a list of hundreds is only better than the Beguiler getting 10 spells off a list of only 100 is only better if: a) The Best spell is not on the list of 100 that the Beguiler gets to choose from. b) That one spell is better than the 10 spells the Beguiler gets.

For all that the balance point of the tier system is malleable, one way in which it is not is in the fact that it's book restricted. Are any of these things possible with only the PHB II and core?

Edit: Also, mostly without items, as I recall.

AnimeTheCat

2016-07-07, 11:39 AM

That is a really bad argument to levy when the Beguiler gets UMD as a class skill.

Then why aren't Rogues T2 or T1? They get it too? UMD always has a chance of failure, you can't take 10 on the checks. The spell being on your list doesn't, no check required. I'm not saying that is the end all-be all for the argument, but it is something certainly valid to keep in mind. To say that it is a really bad argument is somewhat ignorant.

I'm not a D&D expert, but I'm pretty sure that 100% chance of success is better than 95% chance of success. To activate a scroll of gate you need to succeed on a DC 37 (20+Caster Level) UMD Check. You can put up to 23 ranks in UMD and if you have good (I would say 20) charisma score you're getting an additional 5 to that. You have a UMD score of 28. No feats, synergy, or anything, just skill and attribute for this example. You still need to roll a 9 or better meaning you have a 40% chance of failure. That's substantial. That's a lot of investment for a good, but not great, return. If you want to focus on UMD, well now you're pulling feats and skill points away from other parts of the beguiler and reducing your effectiveness in other fields.

So, no... I'm pretty sure that's a very valid argument to put in here because a 100% chance of success will always be better than any lower percent chance of success, thereby separating the two classes between tiers. Sorcerers T2, 100% chance of success on all sorcerer/wizard spells. Beguilers T3, <100% chance of success on most sorcerer/wizard spells.

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 11:43 AM

Beguilers can get Shapechange along with other spells if they want. They can have that and 10 other 9th level spells of their choice at level 18. That's literally just better than what the Sorcerer gets.

That's the point, talking about how Sorcerers can get one spell of a list of hundreds is only better than the Beguiler getting 10 spells off a list of only 100 is only better if: a) The Best spell is not on the list of 100 that the Beguiler gets to choose from. b) That one spell is better than the 10 spells the Beguiler gets.

So from the handbook for beguilers (one of them):

A beguiler gains Advanced Learning at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19, which allows you to permanently add one sorcerer/wizard spell of the Enchantment or Illusion school to your spell list, at up to the highest level beguiler spell you can currently cast.

I was mistaken apparently when I thought it was any spell. They cannot get shapechange on their spell list. Or polymorph. Unless I'm missing something.

Moreover, I don't know what their spell list is for 9th level spells, but if they're mind affecting you could run into problems when a large number of things at high levels tend to have mind affecting immunity barring your DM working with you to make sure you have an opportunity to use those spells either on enemies or in other ways that can make them effective.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 11:46 AM

Moreover, I don't know what their spell list is for 9th level spells, but if they're mind affecting you could run into problems when a large number of things at high levels tend to have mind affecting immunity barring your DM working with you to make sure you have an opportunity to use those spells either on enemies or in other ways that can make them effective.
Alternate vision modes can be useful against the illusion half too. That enchantment and illusion are just about the most vulnerable schools of magic was the initial premise of this thread, after all, and it's a valid premise. Not a sufficiently valid premise to cause a tier reduction, but a valid premise nonetheless.

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 11:59 AM

Alternate vision modes can be useful against the illusion half too. That enchantment and illusion are just about the most vulnerable schools of magic was the initial premise of this thread, after all, and it's a valid premise. Not a sufficiently valid premise to cause a tier reduction, but a valid premise nonetheless.

It's not so much the vulnerability that I'd say prevents it from being tier 2. It's the lack of the cornerstone powerhouses/utilities from the other disciplines it can't access like the polymorph line. That and the fact that it can't get access except at the couple of points where it can branch out with advanced learning.

Willie the Duck

2016-07-07, 11:59 AM

... The Beguiler can have any (and in some ways every) spell that is in any domain in the game. If they don't just get the entire Cleric list, they can just get a bunch of domains, and then if those aren't the domains you want, you can substitute domain to get other ones. If the Beguiler wants a spell, he can just have it. He can have any spell. He can't have every spell, like a Wizard, but he can have any spell, like a Sorcerer.

{I'm assuming this is a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant build that is informing this option, so correct me if you were thinking of something else.}

This is completely opinion, so take from it what you will, but at some point, shouldn't this fall on the Rainbow Servant's shoulders, and not the beguilers? Yes--the beguiler, dread necro, and warmage all benefit the most from the Rainbow Servant. Their spell selection method (choose from any spells on your allowed list, at the time of casting) synergizes perfectly with the RS's extra spells granted, which concurrently wipes away much of the penalty (extremely limited spell selection) that was the apparent compensation that these classes had to pay for such a useful spellcasting system.--but it is the RS's poorly thought out abilities which cause this abusiveness, not the beguilers. Technically, any class with 3rd level arcane casting could get the same benefit. It's just an intuitive choice for the beguiler.

If this were really a problem (given that it might raise a tier 3 to a tier 2, it isn't exactly the worst problem in the game, just an unintended weirdness), I would want the person who designed the RS to be the one sent to the corner with a dunce cap, not the one who designed the beguiler.

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 12:09 PM

{I'm assuming this is a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant build that is informing this option, so correct me if you were thinking of something else.}

This is completely opinion, so take from it what you will, but at some point, shouldn't this fall on the Rainbow Servant's shoulders, and not the beguilers? Yes--the beguiler, dread necro, and warmage all benefit the most from the Rainbow Servant. Their spell selection method (choose from any spells on your allowed list, at the time of casting) synergizes perfectly with the RS's extra spells granted, which concurrently wipes away much of the penalty (extremely limited spell selection) that was the apparent compensation that these classes had to pay for such a useful spellcasting system.--but it is the RS's poorly thought out abilities which cause this abusiveness, not the beguilers. Technically, any class with 3rd level arcane casting could get the same benefit. It's just an intuitive choice for the beguiler.

If this were really a problem (given that it might raise a tier 3 to a tier 2, it isn't exactly the worst problem in the game, just an unintended weirdness), I would want the person who designed the RS to be the one sent to the corner with a dunce cap, not the one who designed the beguiler.

Well, actually... the ability to cast anything of the cleric list spontaneously (unless it doesn't?) might be pushing tier 0. But that's not the beguiler. That's the rainbow servant (in the same vein that becoming a beholder mage isn't making the wizard class tier 0, it's the beholder mage class that's tier 0).

Beheld

2016-07-07, 12:11 PM

For all that the balance point of the tier system is malleable, one way in which it is not is in the fact that it's book restricted.

This is basically nonsense. The factotum must by rule be given an online supplement and a 3.0 setting he's not in according to JaronK. Claiming the Beguiler isn't allowed to access to the Complete series of the Spell Compendium (but apparently Sorcerers are?) is just wrong.

Then why aren't Rogues T2 or T1? They get it too? UMD always has a chance of failure, you can't take 10 on the checks. The spell being on your list doesn't, no check required. I'm not saying that is the end all-be all for the argument, but it is something certainly valid to keep in mind.

1) Rogues aren't Tier 1 or 2 because being able to spend money for an effect is not as good as being able to get the effect. Sorcerer's aren't Tier 1 or 2 because they took one level in Sorcerer and can activate spell completion items.

2) It is valid to keep in mind that anything a Sorcerer can activate, a Beguiler can too (presuming it is even remotely a level appropriate effect) past level 6 or so.

I'm not a D&D expert, but I'm pretty sure that 100% chance of success is better than 95% chance of success.

As a certified D&D expert, I will go ahead and inform you that skills don't auto fail on a 1.

To activate a scroll of gate you need to succeed on a DC 37 (20+Caster Level) UMD Check. You can put up to 23 ranks in UMD and if you have good (I would say 20) charisma score you're getting an additional 5 to that. You have a UMD score of 28. No feats, synergy, or anything, just skill and attribute for this example. You still need to roll a 9 or better meaning you have a 40% chance of failure. That's substantial. That's a lot of investment for a good, but not great, return. If you want to focus on UMD, well now you're pulling feats and skill points away from other parts of the beguiler and reducing your effectiveness in other fields.

That's also bad example. First off, I'm going to assume you are 18th level, because that's the first level at which a Sorcerer can cast Gate. Now, technically, a level 13 Sorcerer/Cleric 1 can use a Prayer Bead to get the CL to activate a Wizard's scroll of Gate or whatever. But the example is Gate, so the truth is that anyone with 5000gp can buy a Candle of Invocation. I'm assuming that the DM arbitrarily limits you to casting 9th level game breaking effects from scrolls to when you actually get them.

Now, a Sorcerer at level 18 automatically casts Gate from a scroll.

On the other hand, a Beguiler automatically casts Gate without rolling from a Runestaff. (DC 21, has 21 ranks in UMD). But let's assume that instead, the party specifically ran into a scroll of Gate, and just wants to use it.

Such a Beguiler would have 21 ranks in UMD, 21 ranks in Spellcraft, and probably 5 ranks in Decipher Script, if you really cared. He could then have a Charisma score of let's just say 8 at base. +5 from wishes +4 from casting a level 2 spell, for a total of 17, or a +3 bonus. Then he probably owns a Competence to UMD item of +10 costing 10,000gp out of his 440,000gp of wealth, add in +2 masterwork item if you want and you get either a +38 or +40 in either case, he activates the scroll on a 1 and has a 100% chance.

Of course, if the item is anything but a scroll, the DC is only 20 or 21 to activate. Such as a Runestaff.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 12:15 PM

This is basically nonsense. The factotum must by rule be given an online supplement and a 3.0 setting he's not in according to JaronK.
Not really. Factotum is tier three with or without other books. They get reasonable spell access, above and beyond the tier four adept, and combine that with excellent skill use and solid abilities. JaronK may talk about other sourced things that he likes to use, but that doesn't really impact the tiering. The class is just always a three.

Claiming the Beguiler isn't allowed to access to the Complete series of the Spell Compendium (but apparently Sorcerers are?) is just wrong.
Not really sure when I gave these sources to anyone. I haven't done much if any specific spell referencing. Also, your plans mostly involve other things that really aren't allowed, like magic items or prestige classes. Otherwise, how are you getting off-list spells that aren't illusion or enchantment, exactly?

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 12:16 PM

As a certified D&D expert, I will go ahead and inform you that skills don't auto fail on a 1.

As a person who took a dip in rules lawyer I'll inform you that this one does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm):

Try Again

Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

Special

You cannot take 10 with this skill.

Beheld

2016-07-07, 12:18 PM

I was mistaken apparently when I thought it was any spell. They cannot get shapechange on their spell list. Or polymorph. Unless I'm missing something.

Since they can get any Domain (or any many domains) added to their class list, and the Transformation Domain exists, They can in fact get those spells on their spell list. More standardly, if you want Shapechange, and you are level 18, the Animal Domain exists.

As a person who took a dip in rules lawyer I'll inform you that this one does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm):

It patently does not. If you roll a 1 and you fail something bad happens. If you don't fail, nothing bad happens, nothing about that rule makes rolling a 1 fail.

{I'm assuming this is a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant build that is informing this option, so correct me if you were thinking of something else.}

I am thinking of a Beguiler at all. Rainbow Servant is certainly the early access to your first domain, since you can get it at level 2, but it is hardly the only one, there are at least 5-7 other PrCs that grant domains.

This is completely opinion, so take from it what you will, but at some point, shouldn't this fall on the Rainbow Servant's shoulders, and not the beguilers?

You say fall on the shoulders, and that's weird, because you make it sound like this is a criticism when it isn't. Now, no, it basically shouldn't fall on the Rainbow Servants shoulder for a number of reasons:

0) What the RBS does with Beguiler is totally fine and not a big deal.

1) The thing the Rainbow Servant does is completely different for Beguilers than any other class (except Dread Necro and Warmage). It just doesn't do the same things for other classes, so there is no reason to be upset with it for how it interacts with nonstandard classes. If for some reason you are upset about this happening.

2) The Beguiler class already makes this an inevitability. Because if you aren't doing Rainbow Servant, you are taking Bloodline feats, Arcane Disciple, and then dipping into prestige classes for domains, and you are still adding lots of other spells to your spells known list.

Also, your plans mostly involve other things that really aren't allowed, like magic items or prestige classes.

Look, if you want to put a big bold heading disclaimer in front of the Tier list that says:

"WARNING! This Tier list is totally worthless the moment your characters have magic items or take a Prestige Class. If your characters take even a single level in a single prestige class, immediately throw this entire thing in the trash and never use or reference it again!"

Then I'm fine with that, but since I'm talking about actual games where people actually play the game, I'm going to assume that if the Sorcerer PrCs (and he ****ing will, because what else was he going to do?) Then the Beguiler can too.

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 12:37 PM

Since they can get any Domain (or any many domains) added to their class list, and the Transformation Domain exists, They can in fact get those spells on their spell list. More standardly, if you want Shapechange, and you are level 18, the Animal Domain exists.

As per the above discussion, just because rainbow servant grants these extra abilities does not kick up the tier of the beguiler class. If a DM bans rainbow servant the beguiler is tier 3. If a DM bans Beholder Mage the wizard is still tier 1 and the sorcerer is still tier 2. The interaction of the rainbow servant is impressive (and it's either very high tier 1 or tier 0), but it's a separate class, not an alternate class feature or supplemental material (like having another thing to bind for the binder is and such).

It patently does not. If you roll a 1 and you fail something bad happens. If you don't fail, nothing bad happens, nothing about that rule makes rolling a 1 fail.

I'm rarely surprised when it comes to rules and this surprised me, but then that's what only taking a dip in rules lawyer gets you.

Beheld

2016-07-07, 12:45 PM

As per the above discussion, just because rainbow servant grants these extra abilities does not kick up the tier of the beguiler class. If a DM bans rainbow servant the beguiler is tier 3. If a DM bans Beholder Mage the wizard is still tier 1 and the sorcerer is still tier 2. The interaction of the rainbow servant is impressive (and it's either very high tier 1 or tier 0), but it's a separate class, not an alternate class feature or supplemental material (like having another thing to bind for the binder is and such).

As I said, I've been assuming that you don't have access to the level 10 Rainbow Servant ability all along, because I was arguing that the Beguiler can have access to ANY spell, but not EVERY spell, like a Sorcerer, and unlike a Wizard. Now the main reason is because it comes online at either level 16, or you have to pull (admittedly relatively simple) early entry tricks, and then it still only comes on at level 11, which is a level so late that most games are over.

But the point is that even without Rainbow Servant (or without the ability at the capstone) you can still have a bloodline at level 1, your first domain at level 2, your first Arcane Disciple Feat at level 3, your second Domain at level 5, your third domain at level 6, your fourth domain at level 7, your fifth domain at level 8, and your sixth domain at level 11. So when you add 8 spells of every spell level to your class list, you are bound to get some good ones, and if you buy an eternal wand of a second level spell (or just a wand, let's be honest, games don't last so long that you need more than 50 castings of a spell with a duration measured in days) you can then substitute out domains to be whatever other domains you would prefer for the next few days (or levels).

eggynack

2016-07-07, 12:46 PM

Look, if you want to put a big bold heading disclaimer in front of the Tier list that says:

"WARNING! This Tier list is totally worthless the moment your characters have magic items or take a Prestige Class. If your characters take even a single level in a single prestige class, immediately throw this entire thing in the trash and never use or reference it again!"

Then I'm fine with that, but since I'm talking about actual games where people actually play the game, I'm going to assume that if the Sorcerer PrCs (and he ****ing will, because what else was he going to do?) Then the Beguiler can too.
That's not the point of the tier system. The goal isn't to tell you everything in all circumstances. The goal is just to tell you the approximate value of the resources you get from your class. Everyone gets items, so they're largely discounted, and prestige classes are a different class entirely, so why would you count them? The tier list isn't useless for that. It just means that you have to apply some adjustments based on what non-class things you're doing. Y'know, like the tier system says to do. So no, the sorcerer isn't taking a prestige class either, because that means that you're at least partially assessing the value of the prestige class rather than the class. You might as well call monks tier three, but then it turns out that you went monk 2/psychic warrior 18. Does such a build reflect real play with the monk? Sure. Does it tell you much about the monk's power level? Not really.

Edit: Wait, where are all these domains coming from? I thought they were an arcane disciple thing.

AvatarVecna

2016-07-07, 12:49 PM

It's worth mentioning that including PrCs at all doesn't throw off the Tier system, because most PrCs aren't sufficient enough to change a classes tier. Even among PrCs that change the build's tier, though, there's a difference between a class like Rainbow Servant and a class like Incantatrix: Incantatrix makes whatever mage it's attached to better at metamagic without giving up casting progression; Rainbow Servant tacks Cleric casting onto your existing casting. Rainbow Servant doesn't necessarily raise a classes tier, it just sets the classes tier at T0. Sure, Beguiler can take advantage of the wording, but you know what, so can Warmage. Thus, Warmage and Beguiler are equally powerful T1 casters. In fact, this is why both Monk and Cleric are T1 as well: they're both equally good if they take Ur-Priest. And that's why Paladins are T-2, because they can go full Pun-Pun by level 1. A classes tier is determined not by what resources they have available, but rather by the absolute most powerful build that can happen to include them.

AnimeTheCat

2016-07-07, 12:50 PM

1) Rogues aren't Tier 1 or 2 because being able to spend money for an effect is not as good as being able to get the effect. Sorcerer's aren't Tier 1 or 2 because they took one level in Sorcerer and can activate spell completion items.

2) It is valid to keep in mind that anything a Sorcerer can activate, a Beguiler can too (presuming it is even remotely a level appropriate effect) past level 6 or so.

I want you to remember your first point here. You aren't T1 or T2 because being able to spend money for an effect is not as good as being able to get the effect. Remember those words.

That's also bad example. First off, I'm going to assume you are 18th level, because that's the first level at which a Sorcerer can cast Gate. Now, technically, a level 13 Sorcerer/Cleric 1 can use a Prayer Bead to get the CL to activate a Wizard's scroll of Gate or whatever. But the example is Gate, so the truth is that anyone with 5000gp can buy a Candle of Invocation. I'm assuming that the DM arbitrarily limits you to casting 9th level game breaking effects from scrolls to when you actually get them.

Now, a Sorcerer at level 18 automatically casts Gate from a scroll.

On the other hand, a Beguiler automatically casts Gate without rolling from a Runestaff. (DC 21, has 21 ranks in UMD). But let's assume that instead, the party specifically ran into a scroll of Gate, and just wants to use it.

Such a Beguiler would have 21 ranks in UMD, 21 ranks in Spellcraft, and probably 5 ranks in Decipher Script, if you really cared. He could then have a Charisma score of let's just say 8 at base. +5 from wishes +4 from casting a level 2 spell, for a total of 17, or a +3 bonus. Then he probably owns a Competence to UMD item of +10 costing 10,000gp out of his 440,000gp of wealth, add in +2 masterwork item if you want and you get either a +38 or +40 in either case, he activates the scroll on a 1 and has a 100% chance.

Of course, if the item is anything but a scroll, the DC is only 20 or 21 to activate. Such as a Runestaff.

So, I've bolded for emphasis. You're telling me that the Beguiler gets a Runestaff (I'm assuming this costs gold), Wishes, Competence Items, and Masterwork Items for free? Or is that " being able to spend money for an effect". Your words. What you just described is everything that a Rogue could do of a comparable level.

So I ask again, does UMD as a class skill make a rogue, and a beguiler for that matter, T2 or higher simply by having UMD as a class skill? Sorcerer is T2, and they get all of the above for free. No wishes, Runestaff, Competence Items, or Masterwork items necessary. It is very much a dividing point for the two classes. Sorcerer also has a bigger spell list to pull from without spending feats just to do it.

Regardless of whether you fail on a roll of a 1 or not, you still have to use your resources in a very vast manner to be able to get the guaranteed success that a sorcerer innately gets for free.

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 12:51 PM

As I said, I've been assuming that you don't have access to the level 10 Rainbow Servant ability all along, because I was arguing that the Beguiler can have access to ANY spell, but not EVERY spell, like a Sorcerer, and unlike a Wizard. Now the main reason is because it comes online at either level 16, or you have to pull (admittedly relatively simple) early entry tricks, and then it still only comes on at level 11, which is a level so late that most games are over.

But the point is that even without Rainbow Servant (or without the ability at the capstone) you can still have a bloodline at level 1, your first domain at level 2, your first Arcane Disciple Feat at level 3, your second Domain at level 5, your third domain at level 6, your fourth domain at level 7, your fifth domain at level 8, and your sixth domain at level 11. So when you add 8 spells of every spell level to your class list, you are bound to get some good ones, and if you buy an eternal wand of a second level spell (or just a wand, let's be honest, games don't last so long that you need more than 50 castings of a spell with a duration measured in days) you can then substitute out domains to be whatever other domains you would prefer for the next few days (or levels).

Are these domains coming from a feat or a PRC? Because if it's a PRC that's another class. And what do you mean bloodline?

Beheld

2016-07-07, 12:52 PM

That's not the point of the tier system. The goal isn't to tell you everything in all circumstances. The goal is just to tell you the approximate value of the resources you get from your class. Everyone gets items, so they're largely discounted, and prestige classes are a different class entirely, so why would you count them?

If you really think that Prestige classes that have the sole meaningful feature are "+1 level to that other class you were already taking" are "totally different guys, honestly" then yeah, any system that tries to measure anything is going to fail.

But again, this is the point. Beguilers have the Class feature: "Get more Benefit from a certain type of readily available class feature of prestige classes usually granted at level 1 in that prestige class than anyone else" if you just declare that "Prestige classes are totally unrelated to base classes and all base classes benefit equally from all prestige classes" as a premise, then a) You are obviously wrong, and b) Of course you will come up with a bad measurement of the Beguiler, because you are specifically discounting one of their class features.

I want you to remember your first point here. You aren't T1 or T2 because being able to spend money for an effect is not as good as being able to get the effect. Remember those words.

...

So, I've bolded for emphasis. You're telling me that the Beguiler gets a Runestaff (I'm assuming this costs gold), Wishes, Competence Items, and Masterwork Items for free? Or is that " being able to spend money for an effect". Your words. What you just described is everything that a Rogue could do of a comparable level.

So I ask again, does UMD as a class skill make a rogue, and a beguiler for that matter, T2 or higher simply by having UMD as a class skill? Sorcerer is T2, and they get all of the above for free. No wishes, Runestaff, Competence Items, or Masterwork items necessary. It is very much a dividing point for the two classes. Sorcerer also has a bigger spell list to pull from without spending feats just to do it.

Regardless of whether you fail on a roll of a 1 or not, you still have to use your resources in a very vast manner to be able to get the guaranteed success that a sorcerer innately gets for free.

Apparently you have not followed my points in this conversation, I will simplify:

1) A Beguiler is "Tier 2" because of it's spellcasting, without using UMD at all.
2) A Sorcerer is "Tier 2" because of it's spellcasting without using UMD or being able to activate scrolls with it's CL at all.
3) A Rogue is "Tier 3" based on it's non UMD class features, without using UMD at all.

4) A Beguiler is still Tier 2 with UMD, because being able to spend money for an effect is not that big a deal, since everyone can do it.
5) A Sorcerer is still Tier 2 with activating scrolls from Caster level, because being able to spend money for an effect is not that big a deal, since everyone can do it.
6) A Rogue is still Tier 3 with UMD, because being able to spend money for an effect is not that big a deal, since everyone can do it.

7) As a side note, the Beguiler has better ability to spend money to activate effects than Rogues, because he can use Runestaves.
8) As a side note, the Beguiler has better ability to spend money to activate effects than Sorcerers, because he has UMD.

9) As a side side note, Gate is broken, Candles of Invocation are broken, anything that talks about using Gate or Candle's of Invocation is kind of a joke.

It's worth mentioning that including PrCs at all doesn't throw off the Tier system, because most PrCs aren't sufficient enough to change a classes tier. Even among PrCs that change the build's tier, though, there's a difference between a class like Rainbow Servant and a class like Incantatrix: Incantatrix makes whatever mage it's attached to better at metamagic without giving up casting progression; Rainbow Servant tacks Cleric casting onto your existing casting.

This is just patently false. If you are a Wizard or a Sorcerer, and you take levels in Rainbow Servant, you still have Wizard and Sorcerer casting. If you are only one of the three classes that benefit from Rainbow Servant, then and only then do you add better than Clerics Cleric casting, and only because you had the class feature "Benefit more from certain kinds of prestige classes than any other character."

gooddragon1

2016-07-07, 12:58 PM

If you really think that Prestige classes that have the sole meaningful feature are "+1 level to that other class you were already taking" are "totally different guys, honestly" then yeah, any system that tries to measure anything is going to fail.

But again, this is the point. Beguilers have the Class feature: "Get more Benefit from a certain type of readily available class feature of prestige classes usually granted at level 1 in that prestige class than anyone else" if you just declare that "Prestige classes are totally unrelated to base classes and all base classes benefit equally from all prestige classes" as a premise, then a) You are obviously wrong, and b) Of course you will come up with a bad measurement of the Beguiler, because you are specifically discounting one of their class features.

Not anyone else. The warmage has been presented as an alternative. Also, there was a thread that was devoted to determining how PRC's increase or decrease the tier of a class they are applied to. I tried to find it, but I'm just not that interested.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 01:04 PM

If you really think that Prestige classes that have the sole meaningful feature are "+1 level to that other class you were already taking" are "totally different guys, honestly" then yeah, any system that tries to measure anything is going to fail.
That's an insane claim. If a prestige class is basically meaningless, then who the hell cares? There's a spectrum at work here. At one end, you have do-nothing prestige classes that are don't even matter for any tier system cause they don't move the needle at all. At the other, you have the big and important prestige classes that impact power level a lot, and those are worth evaluation separately because they, in a sense, are the source of power. As you move away from one issue, you move towards the other.

But again, this is the point. Beguilers have the Class feature: "Get more Benefit from a certain type of readily available class feature of prestige classes usually granted at level 1 in that prestige class than anyone else" if you just declare that "Prestige classes are totally unrelated to base classes and all base classes benefit equally from all prestige classes" as a premise, then a) You are obviously wrong, and b) Of course you will come up with a bad measurement of the Beguiler, because you are specifically discounting one of their class features.

The tier system can't possibly account for everything. Some classes get more benefit from optimization, some get less, some get more benefit from books, some get less, some get more benefit from items, some get less, and so on. With a simple list like the tier system is, you just have to pick the points you're working with and then let people modify from there. The tier system could have done the exact opposite, allowing in all those things and using near maximum optimization, but then it would have been less useful at lower optimization levels with less stuff, and you'd have to subtract stuff you're not using instead of adding that stuff. And the system would have been less useful for it, because it would have only been useful for players who already know the game backwards and forwards, and because subtracting out all this stuff you don't necessarily know about is harder than adding in stuff as you come across it.

Edit:
Not anyone else. The warmage has been presented as an alternative. Also, there was a thread that was devoted to determining how PRC's increase or decrease the tier of a class they are applied to. I tried to find it, but I'm just not that interested.
Here ya go (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0). Not a perfect resource by any means, but it has its uses.

Beheld

2016-07-07, 01:07 PM

Not anyone else. The warmage has been presented as an alternative. Also, there was a thread that was devoted to determining how PRC's increase or decrease the tier of a class they are applied to. I tried to find it, but I'm just not that interested.

1) Yes, Dread Necromancers (who are also mis tiered) also have that feature, and Warmages, who also have that feature, but have a really bad spell list aside from that feature (and I think Healers as well? I could be wrong, maybe they have to prepare spells) have that feature. But that's the point, it's a class feature of specific classes, and should be taken into account when talking about those classes.

2) That thread is wrong in concept, not just execution, for the reasons I have outlined above. If you just assume that Rainbow Servant does the same thing for everyone, then you are starting from the false premise that no one has class features that interact with Rainbow Servant, and you will get the wrong answer. A Sorcerer that takes Rainbow Servant is going to wonder why he bothered, since he gets basically nothing for it.

That is the difference between how Dread Necromancers who take Divine Oracle get more than Wizards out of it, and Beholder Mage and to a lesser extend Ur-Priest levels don't care what you took before and effect everyone the same. Some PrCs interact with previous class features and some don't, if you assume they all don't, you are wrong, and you will get the wrong answer in whatever classification you make.

Likewise, if you start by assuming that all classes have some balance, and they all benefit the same amount from PrCs, then you will be wrong. There is like, one PrC in the entire game that benefits Rogue ever. Of course Rogues will get less benefit when, as is of course the case, everyone PrCs. Likewise, Beguilers and Dread Necros and others get more benefit, so when everyone PrCs, they will feel even better than Sorcerers or Favored Souls.

And what do you mean bloodline?

Bloodlines are feats that grant an extra spell known at each spell level. Basically exactly like Arcane Disciple but without the Wisdom score thing, and even Sorcerers can benefit from them. They take away some spells that you are no longer allowed to cast too. (Like if you take the Earth one you can't cast Air Descriptor spells.)

Willie the Duck

2016-07-07, 01:11 PM

As a certified D&D expert

That sir, is hilarious. You have made my day!

[And I mean that with affection.]

eggynack

2016-07-07, 01:18 PM

1) Yes, Dread Necromancers (who are also mis tiered) also have that feature, and Warmages, who also have that feature, but have a really bad spell list aside from that feature (and I think Healers as well? I could be wrong, maybe they have to prepare spells) have that feature. But that's the point, it's a class feature of specific classes, and should be taken into account when talking about those classes.

2) That thread is wrong in concept, not just execution, for the reasons I have outlined above. If you just assume that Rainbow Servant does the same thing for everyone, then you are starting from the false premise that no one has class features that interact with Rainbow Servant, and you will get the wrong answer. A Sorcerer that takes Rainbow Servant is going to wonder why he bothered, since he gets basically nothing for it.

That is the difference between how Dread Necromancers who take Divine Oracle get more than Wizards out of it, and Beholder Mage and to a lesser extend Ur-Priest levels don't care what you took before and effect everyone the same. Some PrCs interact with previous class features and some don't, if you assume they all don't, you are wrong, and you will get the wrong answer in whatever classification you make.
But again, the thing is, you're not evaluating the beguiler here. You're also not evaluating the rainbow servant. You're evaluating the beguiler/rainbow servant. That other classes don't do as well with the class makes the beguiler/rainbow servant better than the wizard/rainbow servant, but it doesn't make the beguiler better than the wizard (or closer in power to the wizard). Including prestige classes is problematic because of that, because it's so ridiculously complicated. Suddenly, you have to evaluate not just these corner cases of high power, but also every prestige class and class combo. Like, you're talking about this obvious high end combination, but what about something a bit more complex?

What about the incantatrix? It's a class that's at its best with a wizard, because you have that big pool of spells to work with and the ability to set aside a lot of your daily list for persisted buffs. It's a class that's good with sorcerer, because you have all of the best persist targets, but it's not as good because you can't devote as many slots to the plan. It's a class that's decent with beguiler, but not at either of those levels, because you have a list that has some useful persist targets, but you don't have that sheer variety. So, do we lower the beguiler's tier? After all, some other casters have greater marginal value from the class. Or, do we not consider it at all? Are we only considering the maximum possible value options? Are we assuming that every beguiler is a rainbow servant, and that no beguiler is an incantatrix? Where do we draw the line? As I think should be clear, you wind up making a lot of really complex decisions about a massive web of choices, and whether the tier system changes due to the inclusion isn't nearly so clear as you assert. There's a reason why the tier system for PrC's has so many issues, and it's because they add so many variables and create so many combinations.

TheCrowing1432

2016-07-07, 01:24 PM

Geeze this thread got out of hand

eggynack

2016-07-07, 01:26 PM

Geeze this thread got out of hand
Eh, we're still mostly on topic, and only two pages. I only consider something out of hand when it's running solidly in double digits and with at least a couple ludicrous diversions.

Beheld

2016-07-07, 01:26 PM

But again, the thing is, you're not assessing the value of beguiler here. You're also not evaluating the value of rainbow servant. You're evaluating the power of a beguiler/rainbow servant. That other classes don't do as well with the class makes the beguiler/rainbow servant better than the wizard/rainbow servant, but it doesn't make the beguiler better than the wizard (or closer in power to the wizard). Including prestige classes is problematic because of that, because it's so ridiculously complicated. Suddenly, you have to evaluate not just these corner cases of high power, but also every prestige class and class combo. Like, you're talking about this obvious high end combination, but what about something a bit more complex?

What about the incantatrix? It's a class that's at its best with a wizard, because you have that big pool of spells to work with and the ability to set aside a lot of your daily list for persisted buffs. It's a class that's good with sorcerer, because you have all of the best persist targets, but it's not as good because you can't devote as many slots to the plan. It's a class that's decent with beguiler, but not at either of those levels, because you have a list that has some useful persist targets, but you don't have that sheer variety. So, do we lower the beguiler's tier? After all, some other casters have greater marginal value from the class. Or, do we not consider it at all? Are we only considering the maximum possible value options? Are we assuming that every beguiler is a rainbow servant, and that no beguiler is an incantatrix? Where do we draw the line? As I think should be clear, you wind up making a lot of really complex decisions about a massive web of choices, and whether the tier system changes due to the inclusion isn't nearly so clear as you assert. There's a reason why the tier system for PrC's has so many issues, and it's because they add so many variables and create so many combinations.

0) Please for the love of god stop talking about the Rainbow Servant, there are 14 PrCs that I know of that add spells to the Beguiler.

1) It is patently part of the Beguilers abilities to add to their spell list better than Sorcerers. It's a thing they have and get.

3) I have played in games with approximately 9 Beguilers, sometimes mine, sometimes not. Literally every single one of them could cast Black Tentacles. Sometimes as a level 3 spell, sometimes as a level 4 spell. Every single one. This leads to my next point.

4) If you system does not measure how things happen in actual games, I don't care about your system, and it is worthless. Since all games everywhere have PrCing casters, all games everywhere will have Beguilers who can PrC, and all games everywhere have Beguilers who can PrC into the likely even more than 14 classes that can grant them additional spells to cast from based on domains. If your system assumes that Beguilers will never use their feats, PrCs, or items to cast off list spells, your system is wrong and garbage. That is definitely the case. Because that will happen to definitely happen to all Beguilers.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 01:38 PM

0) Please for the love of god stop talking about the Rainbow Servant, there are 14 PrCs that I know of that add spells to the Beguiler.
I use it as an arbitrary example class, same as you do. If you want to talk another class, that's fine, but the rhetoric involved will be really similar. I guess if you have a class that takes less time to write out...

1) It is patently part of the Beguilers abilities to add to their spell list better than Sorcerers. It's a thing they have and get.
It's a thing they get if they use specific resources. Sorcerers also have qualities that are boosted by specific resources. Most classes do, really.

3) I have played in games with approximately 9 Beguilers, sometimes mine, sometimes not. Literally every single one of them could cast Black Tentacles. Sometimes as a level 3 spell, sometimes as a level 4 spell. Every single one. This leads to my next point.
Anecdotal evidence, at least somewhat tainted by the fact that all the games included you in them, and thus were more inclined to do this thing that you consider a native aspect of the class.

4) If you system does not measure how things happen in actual games, I don't care about your system, and it is worthless. Since all games everywhere have PrCing casters, all games everywhere will have Beguilers who can PrC, and all games everywhere have Beguilers who can PrC into the likely even more than 14 classes that can grant them additional spells to cast from based on domains. If your system assumes that Beguilers will never use their feats, PrCs, or items to cast off list spells, your system is wrong and garbage. That is definitely the case. Because that will happen to definitely happen to all Beguilers.

No system can measure how things happen in all games. Your theoretical system that includes rainbow servant would also not describe what happens in all games, as more book limited and lower optimization games would have their experience missed. One could make the exact same critique about your system, and thus conclude that it's worthless.

nedz

2016-07-07, 04:10 PM

Geeze this thread got out of hand

Any thread which mentions the Tier system tends to attract the attention of a certain poster whom most of us have the good sense to ignore since, ... well you can see. Any mention of Beguilers tends to exacerbate the problem also.

That said I think your questions have been answered.

TheCrowing1432

2016-07-07, 04:27 PM

Any thread which mentions the Tier system tends to attract the attention of a certain poster whom most of us have the good sense to ignore since, ... well you can see. Any mention of Beguilers tends to exacerbate the problem also.

That said I think your questions have been answered.

Yeah....just wanted to know how beguilers bypassed the mind immunity thing, is all.

eggynack

2016-07-07, 04:40 PM

Yeah....just wanted to know how beguilers bypassed the mind immunity thing, is all.
Yeah, good rule of thumb is to avoid the tier talk unless you want a big discussion. So, something like, "How do beguilers deal with immunity to mind affecting," would work better. That is, unless you want this sort of complicated and protracted argument.

Gullintanni

2016-07-07, 05:01 PM

If it helps any, I've looked at the tier system all kinds of ways, and I think the best way to think about it when trying to evaluate a class is to ask:

1) Discounting feats, PRCs, items and extras, how much power and versatility am I afforded by the class and its features? And;

2) How far do I have to deviate from the core chassis of the class, how hard do I have to work, in order to break into another classes schtick?

The tier system doesn't evaluate potential very well. It works best when you take a snapshot of one class at a certain optimization threshold, and compare it to another snapshot of another class at that exact same optimization threshold.

For example, comparing Blaster Wizard to Blaster Sorcerer, we'll see that the Wizard is T1 because if for some reason Blasting doesn't work, it's trivially easy for the Wizard to attack the problem using a completely different, game breaking strategy. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, has to contort its build to the point that it's not really a Blaster anymore, and even then, may be permanently crippled by its earlier, lower optimization choices.

Similarly, a Beguiler who's dipping PRC's to grab Domains, and jumping on ACF's is committing all it's resources to trying to be a Wizard; and at that optimization level, it might break even break into T2 territory by coming with an arsenal of reasonable tricks for all situations and one or two game breakers. But a Wizard is already all that and more without even trying. A Wizard barely sneezes and it can do all the things a Beguiler can do.

Beheld

2016-07-07, 06:05 PM

Similarly, a Beguiler who's dipping PRC's to grab Domains, and jumping on ACF's is committing all it's resources to trying to be a Wizard; and at that optimization level, it might break even break into T2 territory by coming with an arsenal of reasonable tricks for all situations and one or two game breakers. But a Wizard is already all that and more without even trying. A Wizard barely sneezes and it can do all the things a Beguiler can do.

"Similarly a Beguiler who jumps through a bunch of tricks might get to be Tier 2 by [Describes the Beguiler class with no additional spell tricks at all]."

I've never seen someone make an accidental condemnation of the Beguilers Tier placement so hard before.

TheCrowing1432

2016-07-07, 07:27 PM

AvatarVecna

2016-07-07, 07:43 PM

Yeah....just wanted to know how beguilers bypassed the mind immunity thing, is all.

Mostly, by not using Mind-Affecting Spells on targets immune to Mind-Affecting magic. Yeah, it sucks to not have access to a third of your spell list at times, but not every enemy is going to be immune to Mind-Affecting unless your DM is a royal turd...and if your DM is a royal turd, that's when you bring a Shadowcraft Mage to the table and use nothing but Silent Image heightened to various levels to mimic any spell in the game via mimicking Miracle (note: poster is not responsible for rulebook-related injuries that occur from following this advice).

But yeah, Illusion spells that don't project the image/sound/whatever into the target's mind (like Ghost Sound, Silent Image, Minor Image, Major Image, and so on) aren't Mind-Affecting, so they're useful against creatures that get their immunity from creature type; in fact, since the majority of creatures immune to Mind-Affecting from their type are mindless, tricking them with such illusions should be easy, because it's literally impossible for them to investigate the illusion (the exception is intelligent undead, which you're admittedly terrible against). Alternatively, if a creature's immunity to Mind-Affecting is from a spell or a magic item...well, that's why you have Dispel Magic on your spell list.

Troacctid

2016-07-07, 07:44 PM

Before level 15, Rainbow Servant hurts more than it helps, and considering how late the payoff comes, I don't think it's even worth taking on a beguiler. It's basically just a theurge class anyway; I'd honestly rate it below Ultimate Magus, and probably below Mystic Theurge too.

Of course, it's definitely not relevant to a ranking of the base classes. If we were counting prestige classes, then barbarians and monks would be T3, bards and rangers would be T2, and shadowcasters and dragonfire adepts would be T1.

AvatarVecna

2016-07-07, 07:49 PM

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the tier list assume max optimiziation with only 20 levels of the same class?

I mean, obviously Beguiler/Rainbow Servant easily reaches tier 1, Full Cleric casting, even without DMM shenanigans, is just that powerful.

But the max potential of Beguiler 20 is what makes them tier 3, correct?

"Max optimization" isn't a basic assumption of the tier system, and it's not why the Beguiler is T3. The Beguiler is T3 because a Beguiler is capable of contributing in a vast majority of situations to a significant degree; they are able to do this because they're a spontaneous full caster whose class spell list is also their spells known list, because their spell list is versatile enough to allow them to contribute magical assistance in a wide variety of situations, and because they get a lot of skill points with a good skill list to shore up whatever aspect of their character they'd rather not spend spell slots on to excel at. Some people will heavily argue that a Beguiler should be T2 because it can access game-breaking tricks without leaving the Beguiler class, and they're probably right; some people will argue that a Beguiler should be T4 because they're useless against foes with immunity to Mind-Affecting...which is objectively wrong, since they have plenty of options for contributing in an encounter with a Mind-Affecting immune foe.

Amphetryon

2016-07-07, 09:02 PM

Cosi

2016-07-08, 06:39 AM

'Roughly equal optimization level' means that, for example, comparing a fully pimped-out Dread Necromancer 20, with as many Dread Warriors and other Undead minions as possible, to a Blaster Wizard or a Healbot Cleric is generally ignoring the basic assumptions underpinning the Tiers.

In practice, "roughly equal optimization level" means "whatever the Beguiler is doing is less optimization than the Sorcerer abusing planar binding". I just don't think it's a useful standard, especially because it's totally subjective. Is DMM: Persist roughly equal to taking Arcane Disciple twice? Maybe it is, because they're both a two feat investment. Maybe it's more, because stacking a bunch of Persisted buffs is better than expanding your spell list. Maybe it's less because you also need Nightsticks to really get a Cleric Archer going. I don't know, and there's no way to really settle that question.

Instead of talking about theoretical questions like "is Arcane Disciple more or less optimization than wings of flurry" or "should we consider a one level PrC dip" or "is UMD under-appreciated", we should try and make a benchmark for tier two and see how much work it is for the Beguiler to reach that benchmark. So I put it to those of you who believe in the tiers: what is the absolute weakest possible tier two character? That is, what is the least optimization a Sorcerer can do without not being tier two?* Write up what that is at fifth, tenth, and fifteenth. Then we can figure out exactly what the Beguiler needs to reach that point, and then make an informed decision about whether that qualifies as reasonable optimization.

*: No, he is not always tier two relative to other classes with equivalent optimization. You can make a Sorcerer that is strictly worse than a Warmage.

tsj

2016-08-21, 05:57 AM

http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4890.0

Gnaeus

2016-08-21, 08:42 AM

http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4890.0

Wow, that Braithwaite guy sounds really smart. I bet he spent dozens of hours bitterly arguing with JaronK about comparative optimization and his belief that Beguilers really belong in T2 before he wrote that definition.

No, really, I think it is fantastic that you brought back a dead thread from a month ago to cite a definition I wrote 7 years ago.

While I'm here:

In practice, "roughly equal optimization level" means "whatever the Beguiler is doing is less optimization than the Sorcerer abusing planar binding". I just don't think it's a useful standard, especially because it's totally subjective. Is DMM: Persist roughly equal to taking Arcane Disciple twice? Maybe it is, because they're both a two feat investment. Maybe it's more, because stacking a bunch of Persisted buffs is better than expanding your spell list. Maybe it's less because you also need Nightsticks to really get a Cleric Archer going. I don't know, and there's no way to really settle that question.

Fully agree.

Instead of talking about theoretical questions like "is Arcane Disciple more or less optimization than wings of flurry" or "should we consider a one level PrC dip" or "is UMD under-appreciated", we should try and make a benchmark for tier two and see how much work it is for the Beguiler to reach that benchmark. So I put it to those of you who believe in the tiers: what is the absolute weakest possible tier two character? That is, what is the least optimization a Sorcerer can do without not being tier two?* Write up what that is at fifth, tenth, and fifteenth. Then we can figure out exactly what the Beguiler needs to reach that point, and then make an informed decision about whether that qualifies as reasonable optimization.

Not a bad attempt. I will say that I don't think sorcerers are the weakest T2. Thats probably Favored Soul, or maybe Spirit Shaman (which pops up everywhere from T3-T1 because its weird). I would also say that because equivalent optimization means what it means, it will be almost impossible to figure out what is T2 in a vaccuum. A level 5 sorcerer with 2nd level spells doesn't really have any world shattering powers, so probably CAN'T really meet the definition of T2 without significant cheese. I mean I'd love to see someone try to make the weakest possible Sorc or FS that is still T2, but it's such a ball of wibbley wobbley tiery wiery stuff that I doubt we could even agree on "weakest T2 Sorcerer or FS".

Extra Anchovies

2016-08-21, 03:26 PM

My general litmus test for T2 is to ask the question: "How easily can this class break a campaign or setting?". That question, at least in the case of spellcasters, tends to boil down to a checklist of abilities that settings and campaigns are often not prepared for (and with good reason, because preparing for them is hard).

Movement: Instant long-distance travel (Teleport, Transport via Plants)
Mysteries: Open-ended divination (Contact Other Plane, Discern Location)
Money: Instantaneous creation effects (Fabricate, Wall of Iron/Salt/etc)
Minions: Uncapped minionmancy (Animate Dead, Planar Binding)
Monsters: Open-ended polymorphs (Polymorph, Shapechange)

There's some other things that can definitely cause problems (like some of the more powerful compulsions), and plenty of spells can rule hard on an encounter or adventure level (like Color Spray at low levels), but those five types are the really big ones that can tear an entire game or setting apart if used intelligently. The Beguiler has solid access to Mysteries, but it completely lacks Movement, Money, Minions, and Monsters, and just one of the big five isn't enough to tear a game apart.

There's definitely still potential for them to mess with encounters and adventures in serious ways; they have access to a lot of save-or-lose spells, and their compulsions stand out as a possible wrench in the works of a narrative. However, dealing with those is mostly a matter of good encounter and adventure planning (multiple enemy types, avoiding or restricting access to lynchpin NPCs, etc), in the same way that a Cha-focused Bard or a pouncing Totemist will be troublesome unless accounted for in the design process.

Wow, that Braithwaite guy sounds really smart. I bet he spent dozens of hours bitterly arguing with JaronK about comparative optimization and his belief that Beguilers really belong in T2 before he wrote that definition.

No, really, I think it is fantastic that you brought back a dead thread from a month ago to cite a definition I wrote 7 years ago.

Are you the Gr1lledcheese in that linked thread? Nice. I quite like those "Why each class is in its tier" guides.

Beheld

2016-08-21, 03:48 PM

The Beguiler . . . completely lacks . . . Minions.

Good joke. 5/7

Gnaeus

2016-08-22, 10:58 AM

My general litmus test for T2 is to ask the question: "How easily can this class break a campaign or setting?". That question, at least in the case of spellcasters, tends to boil down to a checklist of abilities that settings and campaigns are often not prepared for (and with good reason, because preparing for them is hard).

Movement: Instant long-distance travel (Teleport, Transport via Plants)
Mysteries: Open-ended divination (Contact Other Plane, Discern Location)
Money: Instantaneous creation effects (Fabricate, Wall of Iron/Salt/etc)
Minions: Uncapped minionmancy (Animate Dead, Planar Binding)
Monsters: Open-ended polymorphs (Polymorph, Shapechange)

The Beguiler has solid access to Mysteries, but it completely lacks Movement, Money, Minions, and Monsters, and just one of the big five isn't enough to tear a game apart.

Movement: Beguiler can Shadow Walk. It isn't Teleport, but is very comparable to what a Favored Soul can do. Or a Binder, who can duplicate wind walk with a summon.
Mysteries: You agree beguiler can do it. I'm not really sure how a binder can. Favored souls are really bad at this, because it requires tying up slots for only downtime use.
Money: How does a Favored Soul do this? Or a Binder? For that matter, why is Wall of Salt actually better than just stealing some money, which is something Beguilers, with their unparalled social and stealth skills kind of rock at.
Minions: Planar Binding is the gold standard, yes. But Planar Ally may or may not be better than just Dominate (either way, you are dependent on the DM for getting something useful). Binder gets short term minions only (although at will).
Monsters: How does a Favored Soul Polymorph? Shapechange? How does a Binder?

And of course, as with all Beguiler discussions, it assumes that the Beguiler does not want to expand his list with any of the multiple easy ways to do that. Its a lot easier for a beguiler to get teleport than a favored soul or a binder. Travel domain is full of treasure. Or disputed rules, like, "if the Beguiler takes greater Shadow Conjunction with advanced learning, can he make illusions of summons and then automatically fail will saves to disbelieve them so they can hit him with their spell likes?"

Are you the Gr1lledcheese in that linked thread? Nice. I quite like those "Why each class is in its tier" guides.
No, I was just the person who wrote the Beguiler entry. Braithwaite.

eggynack

2016-08-22, 03:10 PM

For that matter, why is Wall of Salt actually better than just stealing some money, which is something Beguilers, with their unparalled social and stealth skills kind of rock at.
Mostly cause it's way lower risk and complication. Also, stealing is inconsistent in the amount you get, and so you probably need to do it more times. Selling salt is, relatively speaking, fast, easy, and unrisky.

gooddragon1

2016-08-22, 04:29 PM

Mostly cause it's way lower risk and complication. Also, stealing is inconsistent in the amount you get, and so you probably need to do it more times. Selling salt is, relatively speaking, fast, easy, and unrisky.

So what you're saying is any caster worth their salt that can know that spell does know that spell?

eggynack

2016-08-22, 04:30 PM

ComaVision

2016-08-22, 04:33 PM

So what you're saying is any caster worth their salt that can know that spell does know that spell?

I doubt that most casters would be worth their salt. Salt happens to be super expensive, and most casters are low in level.

I'm not sure if this is what I hate about the playground or what I like about the playground.

nedz

2016-08-22, 05:37 PM

So what you're saying is any caster worth their salt that can know that spell does know that spell?

Of course, if you were to apply real world economics: Salt would become relatively worthless quite quickly; because: Supply and Demand.

Still Beguilers can get Shadow Conjuration at level 8 - and I'm sure they could make a market for Lo Salt.

Gnaeus

2016-08-23, 08:42 AM

Of course, if you were to apply real world economics: Salt would become relatively worthless quite quickly; because: Supply and Demand.

This. Pretending that wall of salt > infinite WBL = pretending that Paladin 1 + Pazuzu = Pun Pun or drown healing. Yes, its raw legal. No, I don't really see it as a reason why high tier characters dominate. I strongly suspect that 95+% of DMs will either just say No. Or explain that salt is no longer valuable because someone set up a trap of it. Or say "fine. you have infinite cash you munchkin. you win D&D. Lets go play a boardgame". Or have the salt cartel murder you in your sleep. Have you ever seen an actual game where whenever a cleric or druid hit level 7 they vaulted to infinite wealth by salt sales? At least with fabricate + wall of iron you can make things.

Yes, it is low risk (unless the salt cartel kills you). Yes, stealing has uncertain rewards. But every DM I have ever played with is going to reward the PCs for doing interesting and adventurous things, and no DM I have ever played with is going to just say, OK, you now have wall of salt. You spend the next 6 months earning 100,000,000 gp. Tell me what you are buying. It isn't even a game breaker in the sense that adventuring as an astral projection from your demiplane is. Its just a useless piece of 3.5 trivia. Heck, any game where that silliness works, the Dread Necro can make an equivalent fortune setting up a zombie factory to convert ladders to 10 foot poles. And good times are had by all.