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Foivos
2016-07-05, 07:44 PM
So the feat Dancing with Shadows allows the use of a maneuver called lingering defense. To use this maneuver you need to hve used combat expertise with at least -2 penalty on attack rolls or have fought defensively for the last 2 rounds. This maneuver gives you the same dodge bonus from combat expertise without having to take a penalty to attack. My question is, what if the last two rounds you used (improved) combat expertise with different to-hit penalties. What I specifically want to do is:
Round 1: Use improved combat expertise with -BAB for +BAB to AC.
Round 2: Use improved combat expertise with -BAB for +BAB to AC and use the Graceful Lunge maneuver (from the same feat) to get 1 "good" attack.
Round 3: Use improved combat expertise with -2 with lingering defense for +BAB to AC and a number of "good" attacks.
Round 4: Use improved combat expertise with -BAB for +BAB to AC
Round 5: Use improved combat expertise with -2 with lingering defense for (?) +BAB to AC and a number of "good" attacks.
...

Here are the three ways to interpret this:
1: Lingering defense only looks at the latest round bonus received from combat expertise. The above is therefore possible
2: To use Lingering defense with combat expertise the bonuses from it in the last 2 rounds must equal. The above is impossible
3: When using Lingering defense with combat expertise the bonus received is the minimum bonus received in the last 2 rounds. The above is impossible.

It seems to me the wording of the feat is vague enough that there is no absolute answer, but I wonder what you guys think.

P.S. The above is meant to work in a rogue build. I am aware of Power attack/Dexterous attack combos that make the above question unimportant.

gorfnab
2016-07-05, 09:49 PM
There are two mentions of this in the handbook: A Short Guide to Defensive Fighting. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting) The first explains the steps of the feat and the second explains it in a build.



Dancing With Shadows (Races of Eberron, page 117): Requires base attack +4, Perform (dance) 8 and Path of Shadows. There are two maneuvers of interest here, Graceful Lunge and Lingering Defense. The first adds a bonus to your first melee attack equal to the dodge bonus you gained from Combat Expertise/fighting defensively (you then convert this to hideous amounts of damage with maneuvers/Power Attack, of course). The second gives you the same dodge bonus from Combat Expertise/fighting defensively the third consecutive round you use the feat for no attack penalty (and you can continue to CE/fight defensively for x2 bonus). Your order should be something like:
Turn 1: fighting defensively
Turn 2: Graceful Lunge (still fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)
Turn 3: Lingering Defese (probably still fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)
Turn 4: Graceful Lunge (fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)
...and so on and so forth.

Notice the "(fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)" part. Basically this setup will continue to work as long as you are using a penalty of at least -2. The feat even states that it requires "(taking a penalty of at least -2 on your attack rolls)" on both of the maneuvers. Any penalty beyond the -2 is your choice.

The wording on Lingering Defense is a little vague. It seems that for the two consecutive rounds the penalty should be same, however like you stating this may be up to interpretation.


Lingering Defense: To use this m a n e u v e r , you must use the Combat Expertise feat (taking a penalty of at least -2 on your attack rolls) or fight defensively for 2 consecutive rounds. In the next round, you continue to receive the same dodge bonus to AC gained from Combat Expertise or fighting defensively, but you take no penalty on attack rolls.

Since it only mentions the 2 consecutive rounds and not previous round, first round, or second round bonus I'm inclined to go with the assumption that the 2 consecutive rounds must have the same bonus.

Foivos
2016-07-06, 01:07 AM
Assuming that to be the case (you Lingering Defense requires the same modifier) don't you think a house rule to allow for the minimum of the two is reasonable? I think using combat expertise at -5 could also be treated as using combat expertise at -2,-3 and -4.

Foivos
2016-07-06, 09:39 AM
Something else that came to mind. While I see your point, gorfnab, I wanna point out that by RAW if you use combat expertise for two consecutive rounds with different penalties each time you still qualify to use Lingering Defense (in fact you can use combat expertise and then fight defensively and you'd still qualify). When it comes to determining which bonus you get the only place in the feat description that gives a hint is:

you continue to receive the same dodge bonus to AC gained from Combat Expertise or fighting defensively
Continuing to receive the same bonus implies getting the same bonus as the last round, otherwise there would be no continuity.
I am not trying to start an argument, I just want both sides to be heard.