Half-Fiend Warrior PCs

[Anachronity]

How balanced would it be to allow a PC to take a progression-based template (half-fiend, half-celestial, half-fey, phrenic, etc.) at no additional level adjustment (or level change, if using Pathfinder), provided that character only took levels in non-adept NPC classes? (i.e. the progression-based class effectively replaces actual class abilities)

The baseline here is a reasonable (i.e. not optimized, but played with rules knowledge with a mixture of effective and thematic choices) tier 3 or a very basic (i.e. new player, out-of-the-PHB, picking the spells that 'look cool') tier 2.

I am interested in variations as well. Would it be reasonable to add in a second, non-progressional template in the +2-ish range (e.g. Dark or Spellwarped) keeping in mind that All Templates Are Not Created Equal? How much is starting level a factor in this and how well would such a character measure up as levels increased?

[Thurbane]

It's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure that template only based abilities would make the character worth playing.

A Half-fiend Warrior is basically just a guy that hits things with a stick, has a few daily SLAs, some resistances, and flight. He doesn't even have the feats or ACFs to pull of some of the things that make Fighter playable.

Expert might be a bit more interesting, maxing out skills like UMD etc.

Overall, my gut feeling is that even a decent "free" template doesn't make the NPC classes viable as PCs.

[Metahuman1]

You would have to pile it on over the course of the game to a point were it would be ridiculous to do this. The only maybe possible exception is if the character super super SUPER optimizes Expert skill choices.


Honestly you cold take a low tier PC class, fighter, knight, Rogue, out of the box Scout, out of the box Ranger, Out of the box Paladin, Monk and do a "free" Template, or even 2 or 3 of them, and come out in that competent tier 3 / semi-competent-ish tier 2 spot your aiming for. And by making those classes playable, people might even have fun with them.

[mabriss lethe]

I'd probably tweak things a bit. limiting the player to non adept npc for their entire career isn't going to work very well. However, to take half fiend as an example, I'd give it to a player for free if they in turn "payed it off" by taking a number of levels in an appropriate npc class equal to the LA. So you'd wind up with a Half fiend warrior 4/ X 16

EDIT to add: I'd be leery of doing this with Phrenic, since its LA is rather low.

[Metahuman1]

Depending on the PC class, I wouldn't even do that.


Psi-Warriror, Factotum, Warblade, Sorcerer, Binder, yeah, ok, I can see that.


Fighter. Monk. Knight. Scout? Not so much.

[Anachronity]

Hmm, how many templates would it take to make warrior match up, then?

There would probably be some serious balance issues at lower levels if you took too many, but what about, say, level 5? 8? 12?

[OldTrees1]

Hmm, how many templates would it take to make warrior match up, then?

There would probably be some serious balance issues at lower levels if you took too many, but what about, say, level 5? 8? 12?

Well if the bulk of the character's power/verstility are its spell-like abilities then you should compare those spell-like abilities it gains to the spell slots of a caster. The Warrior Chassis adds next to nothing to the character so it really is "Template Spell-like abilities vs Base Class caster's spell slots".

[Anachronity]

Well if the bulk of the character's power/verstility are its spell-like abilities then you should compare those spell-like abilities it gains to the spell slots of a caster. The Warrior Chassis adds next to nothing to the character so it really is "Template Spell-like abilities vs Base Class caster's spell slots".

That's the problem, I wouldn't say the bulk of their power comes from spells (a good chunk, sure, but not all of it). They also get large attribute boosts, a natural armor bonus, a decent set of resistances and immunities, and very relevant spell resistance; and that's just the half-fiend template. The warrior class (combined with unusually high attributes) makes him a decent frontliner at least at the earlier levels, I would think. He'd also have significantly more durability than a full caster barring protection spells.

[OldTrees1]

That's the problem, I wouldn't say the bulk of their power comes from spells (a good chunk, sure, but not all of it). They also get large attribute boosts, a natural armor bonus, a decent set of resistances and immunities, and very relevant spell resistance; and that's just the half-fiend template. The warrior class (combined with unusually high attributes) makes him a decent frontliner at least at the earlier levels, I would think. He'd also have significantly more durability than a full caster barring protection spells.

What level are you asking about because after Xth level each of those claims (X varies with the claim) become worth less than a level's worth of class features if they every were worth that to begin with.

The ability boosts are: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2 which quickly fails to be an effective offense even if increased (even Fighters have qualitatively better combat).

The natural armor, resistances, and Poison immunity are not worth a level of class features.

The SR can only be gained once and might be worth a level of class features.

Flight & Large Size would be worth a level's worth of class features each.

Why would you presume "barring protection spells"? A base class caster (even when talking about balanced casters) will have a better list than the spell-like abilities.

So while you would not say the bulk comes from the spell-like abilities, unless you are talking very low level I would assert that the bulk comes from the spell-like abilities. Especially when you are mid level with multiple of these templates. Flyby attack for a single attack that does mere damage or cast a level appropriate spell? Hmm not a hard choice for me.