Mounted Leader Musings

[masteraleph]

Note- if you don't care about the background here, skip the first paragraph.

Recently, I've been playing around with building an enabling Valor Bard. There are two main components to any such leader- applying bonuses, moving allies and granting attacks. Valor Bards can do the former easily- War Chanter does this fantastically, and a half-Elf can add Magic Weapon in to up the damage. The last, though, isn't as easily accomplished, since pure Bards lack the whole party attack Encounter options. Fortunately, in addition to a few daily tricks, Bards can take multiple multi-class feats, and Eternal Seeker works fine for them. The result ends up being that Powerswapping for Hail of Steel works fine (power swap is necessary for Combat Virtuoso to work), and Eternal Seeker + a Shaman MC can bring in Spirit of the Ram, and Eternal Seeker can bring in Valorous Charge. Getting movement for the whole party at once is more difficult- MwaO does it on Chordswitch with Tactical Orders, regaining from APing and lots of actions from Master of Moments, but a pure bard could powerswap for Slick Concoction to move all allies.

With all of that in mind, I was wondering if anyone has ever thrown an enabling leader on top of a mount. The reason to do so would be that mounts count as allies, so Slick Concoction can move them. That could work either for a totally independent creature or for a Familiar turned into a mount via the Familiar Mount ritual. But then I realized that, with the bonuses from a good enabling leader, a mount that can attack might be able to do enough damage to be worthwhile, even with the -2 if the PC doesn't have the Mounted Combat feat.

With that said, it looks like mounts, particularly above low paragon, are a mess. Jade Horse lets you summon a mount that levels with you, but its MBA is pretty insignificant and, of course, it doesn't fly. The various Figurines are useless. Drakkensteeds fly, require keeping up with the appropriate version, and their MBA is still pretty low (level appropriate accuracy, but the damage seems low- might just be me, though). Rimefire Griffon is nice for its level, but doesn't really have a higher or lower level version. Familiar Mounts can't attack, which negates a decent part of the goal and depending on how you read the ritual, either can be reasonably sturdy or collapse with next to no effort on the part of the enemy (the question being whether the 5+half level damage is per turn or total).

Is the best thing possible to go with the various Drakkensteeds? Or is there something I'm missing?

[Beoric]

The reason Rimefire Griffon looks good may be that it was updated to MM3 damage. Nearly all the mounts were built with MM1 stats. Update them, and you may find a more useful selection.

E: For flying mounts that are already updated I found griffon, hippogriff, hippogriff dreadmount, wyvern, and manticore (which is an elite and also has an RBA).

None of those are above low paragon, though. There are two other than rimefire griffon, but they don't fly: Nyfellar Mammoth and Lolth's Reaver.

[MwaO]

Couple of out of the box options assuming a small race choice:
Be a hybrid Sentinel - you're going to be more controller because of this, but decent.
Be a Fey Beast Tamer - allows options other than hybrid Sentinel(aka Valor Bard)

The basic downside of course is that you can't pick up the at-wills - but a Goblin can also pick up Goblinoid Mount Training, giving the mount your defenses. Refluff as a Worg :)

[ThePurple]

Be a Fey Beast Tamer - allows options other than hybrid Sentinel(aka Valor Bard)

This is actually one of *the* most popular builds for small characters in my groups, especially with heavy armor Sverfneblin (speed of 4... ew... Displacer Beast mount? speed 8! and +1 defs!).

The problem, of course, is that, because the defenses of most mounts are pretty bad (~13 + level NADs, which is a 50% chance of being hit by an even level; my players generally manage closer to 20-25% chance of being hit) and their hp isn't particularly stellar (esp the FBT since they're just "your bloodied value"), it's *really* easy for your mount to die, especially if there are AoEs.

4e just really wasn't well designed for mounted combat. Mounts are basically magic items (they cost as much as a magic item of their level) that don't scale, can die, and require a feat in order to access the more tangible benefits (other than movement speed).

Personally, I think Mounted Combat needs a complete and total overhaul. Allow it to have your mount use your defenses and/or redirect any attack (including AoEs, but preventing double attacks) against your mount against you as an opp action (so it basically becomes "you can't attack my mount without my permission until I'm dead"; this also means that a defender can either choose to become the target of the attack or get their retrib attack in). Mounted benefits for a creature should be applied whether you have the feat or not (since they're basically items; if they don't, it's like telling someone they can wear but won't get the benefit from a magic belt without taking the "Belted Combat" feat first).

[MwaO]

This is actually one of *the* most popular builds for small characters in my groups, especially with heavy armor Sverfneblin (speed of 4... ew... Displacer Beast mount? speed 8! and +1 defs!).

The problem, of course, is that, because the defenses of most mounts are pretty bad (~13 + level NADs, which is a 50% chance of being hit by an even level; my players generally manage closer to 20-25% chance of being hit) and their hp isn't particularly stellar (esp the FBT since they're just "your bloodied value"), it's *really* easy for your mount to die, especially if there are AoEs.

Right - hence the Goblin part - defenses = PCs defenses. Goblin even boosts Cha and presumably a Bard 10 is thinking about Mantle of Unity.

[masteraleph]

Fey Beast Tamer is generally my first thought for mounted builds...but in the case of a Valor Bard, keeps you from having Sidhe Lord as a Theme (and specifically the U2). That's a heck of a cost.

[ThePurple]

Fey Beast Tamer is generally my first thought for mounted builds...but in the case of a Valor Bard, keeps you from having Sidhe Lord as a Theme (and specifically the U2). That's a heck of a cost.

Personally, I've always preferred Song of Courage or Song of Defense for that slot; Staggering Note as an at-will is a better choice for an enabling standard action, imo.

[Dimers]

MC to psion for the Thrallherd paragon path -- sorry, no War Chanter here. Make your thrall Large using the Beast Growth ritual (total of 210 gp per day if constantly in use). The thrall can use one magic item, so pick something to let it fly, either occasionally or always. That's all I got.


Personally, I've always preferred Song of Courage or Song of Defense for that slot; Staggering Note as an at-will is a better choice for an enabling standard action, imo.

Eh? Which U2 song is the song of courage, "Angel of Harlem"? "Where the Streets Have No Name"? #showingmyage

[MwaO]

Personally, I've always preferred Song of Courage or Song of Defense for that slot; Staggering Note as an at-will is a better choice for an enabling standard action, imo.

It has to do with Warchanter's F16, the ability to spend 2 APs per combat in combo with its AP option of +Con to hit/damage for everyone but the Warchanter. If you have say 4 combats in a day, it would be nice to have 8 APs to spend instead of say 3...

[GPuzzle]

MC to psion for the Thrallherd paragon path -- sorry, no War Chanter here. Make your thrall Large using the Beast Growth ritual (total of 210 gp per day if constantly in use). The thrall can use one magic item, so pick something to let it fly, either occasionally or always. That's all I got.



Eh? Which U2 song is the song of courage, "Angel of Harlem"? "Where the Streets Have No Name"? #showingmyage

"New Year's Day" would be my pick.

[masteraleph]

BTW- for those who are wondering what this would look like, here's a version I just threw together at level 18. Note that I haven't put too much thought into some of the powers, particularly the dailies- there may be better ones; Arrow of Warning may be worth keeping around just to have another off-turn attack, etc.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Jonn, level 18
Half-Elf, Bard, War Chanter
Bardic Virtue Option: Virtue of Valor
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Trained from Birth for a Specific Prophecy (Trained from Birth for a Specific Prophecy Benefit)
Theme: Sidhe Lord

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 9, CON 23, DEX 11, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 23

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 16, DEX 10, INT 13, WIS 11, CHA 16


AC: 33 Fort: 33 Ref: 29 Will: 32
HP: 120 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 30

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Arcana +16, Diplomacy +22, Endurance +19, History +16, Insight +17, Intimidate +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +11, Bluff +19, Dungeoneering +14, Heal +14, Nature +14, Perception +14, Religion +15, Stealth +12, Streetwise +19, Thievery +12

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Sidhe Lord Utility: Summon Sidhe Ally
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Bard Feature: Words of Friendship
Paladin Utility: Shroud of Shadow
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Resistive Formula
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Curative Admixture
Artificer Attack 1: Magic Weapon
Bard Attack 1: Staggering Note
Bard Attack 1: Vicious Mockery
Sidhe Lord Utility 2: Sidhe Bargain
Bard Attack 3: Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade
Bard Attack 3: Echoing Weapon
Bard Attack 5: Song of Discord
Bard Utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Bard Attack 9: Counterpoint
Bard Utility 10: Mantle of Unity
Artificer Utility 10: Slick Concoction
War Chanter Attack 11: Victorious Smite
War Chanter Utility 12: Battle Chant
Bard Attack 15: Satire of Evasion
Warlord Attack 17: Hail of Steel

FEATS
Level 1: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Battle Song Expertise
Level 2: Improved Defenses
Level 4: Bard of All Trades
Level 6: Combat Virtuoso
Level 8: Improved Initiative
Level 10: Walker of the Dark Path
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Resourceful Leader
Level 14: Student of Artifice
Level 16: Acolyte Power
Level 18: Novice Power

ITEMS
Ritual Book
Traveler's Chant
Comrades' Succor
Bard's Songblade Dagger +4 x1
Veteran's Chainmail +4 x1
Symbol of Victory +2 x1
Circlet of Arkhosia (paragon tier) x1
Timeless Locket +4 x1
Bag of Holding
Belt of the Witch King x1
Light Shield x1
====== End ======

Would be really nice to fit in Skill Power (to pick up Insightful Riposte, of course)- not sure where, though, since it feels like feats are pretty locked in, and at some point picking up Heroic Interjection would be nice to have yet another AP generator. But basically, if he's mounted, the shtick is-

Turn 1:
Minor- Mantle of Unity
Move->Minor- Slick Concoction (moves everyone including his mount)
AP (allies get +6 attack/+6 damage bonus to all attacks until end of his next turn)
Standard- Magic Weapon (if he hits, allies get +1 Power Bonus to attack enemy, +6 Power Bonus to damage)
Standard- Hail of Steel (grants basic attacks to all allies if he hits- why Insightful Riposte would be nice)

Turn 2:
Minor- Echoing Weapon on an ally's weapon
Move (depending on the general layout, these could go in the opposite order)
Standard- Sidhe Bargain
AP (+6/+6 is around until the end of his next turn)
Standard-Victorious Smite


Some encounters don't sneak in the Magic Weapon because he only has an AP from Sidhe Bargain. Symbol of Victory can grant him an extra AP, and if I can pick up Heroic Interjection, he can get another one. In Epic, Eternal Seeker as ED, MC Shaman and pick of Spirit of the Ram at 23, pick up Valorous Charge at level 27.

The Slick Concoction trick only works, though, if he's on a mount, so he can move too (or Mantle of Unity has to wait until turn 2, but that's sad). Hail of Steel would grant a mount an attack as well, as would Spirit of the Ram and Valorous Charge. And with +6 or +7 to attack at this point, and +6 or +12 to damage, that attack could be perfectly worthwhile, even with the -2 for a mount's attack. If anyone's wondering whether Mounts are actually allies, that's explicitly confirmed in the Mounted Combat entry in the Rules Compendium.

[analyst123]

Would be really nice to fit in Skill Power (to pick up Insightful Riposte, of course)- not sure where, though, since it feels like feats are pretty locked in, and at some point picking up Heroic Interjection would be nice to have yet another AP generator. But basically, if he's mounted, the shtick is-


You could get a tenacious weapon for double roll.

Though I think a bigger practical problem is that Slick Concoction is a slide 5... at late paragon, you really need an extremely generous DM to place monsters only 5 squares away from the team at start of the combat.

[masteraleph]

You could get a tenacious weapon for double roll.

Though I think a bigger practical problem is that Slick Concoction is a slide 5... at late paragon, you really need an extremely generous DM to place monsters only 5 squares away from the team at start of the combat.

True enough, but that either requires supporting a separate implement or MCing. Not sure there's a way to get around that though until level 23 (Spirit of the Ram allows everyone to charge, and the bonuses are big enough that even non-melee characters can hit and do significant damage). Not quite up to the level of Chordswitch in terms of damage, but can grant attacks over and over again.

[darkdragoon]

There was a spider mount that was popular at one point, but errata made its poison bite much less nasty.

I don't think there's a way of getting the cavalier mounts, but Paladin does have Holy Steed.

[masteraleph]

There was a spider mount that was popular at one point, but errata made its poison bite much less nasty.

I don't think there's a way of getting the cavalier mounts, but Paladin does have Holy Steed.

Not anymore, and it would be a power swap feat conflict anyways. That Dragon article originally had Call Celestial Steed as a level 4 Paladin Utility, which RAW you could power swap for (and regular Paladins could even take). But they cut the level in the final version, so it can't be swapped for.

[Beoric]

I ran across the following entry at p. 46 of the DMG, which was not errataed with the other changes to mounted combat:

"You can allow the PCs and the creatures they ride to get their own sets of actions, especially if a character rides a powerful, intelligent monster such as a dragon. However, at that point you have effectively added an additional member to the party. If you do this, add an additional XP value of monsters to the encounter equal to the mounts’ XP value. When granting the PCs experience, subtract these “bonus” monsters from the XP total.

"You should use this rule if the mount’s level is at the party’s level or higher, or if its level is no more than two below the characters’ level. Lower-level mounts are too weak to have a big effect on the encounter. As usual, use your common sense. If a lower-level mount manages to prove a big help to the party, add extra creatures and hold back XP as above."