RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Rawhide

2016-07-05, 11:32 PM

http://i.imgur.com/twu2lyg.png
Hello and welcome to the 8th iteration of the RWBY threads!

RWBY is an western made, anime style, 3d computer animation, freely available, web series, with variable length episodes, originally created by Monty Oum (http://www.youtube.com/user/montyoum/videos) for Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com). Unfortunately, Monty Oum has passed away, but his creation lives on.

RWBY is pronounced "ruby" and is an acronym for the four main team members: Red, White, Black, Yellow - aka Ruby, Weiss, Blake, Yang. All of the main characters have some folklore, fairy tale, or historical reference, but are very much their own characters and are not based on that reference. In addition, every character (with the only known exception being Ozpin) and team name is based on a colour. While some are obvious, others need to be traced back a fair way to find something that is associated with a colour.

Watch:
First Episode: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?id=7872&v=more) YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sGiE10zNQM)
Latest Episode: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/show/rwby)
Playlist: YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUBVPK8x-XMhCW2fW7ZYlD9MHjvmT8IGK), Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/show/rwby)

Trailers:
Red: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?id=6052&v=more) YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYW2GmHB5xs)
White: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?id=6934&v=more) YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt9vl8iAN5Q)
Black: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?id=7194&v=more) YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImKCt7BD4U4)
Yellow: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/archive/?id=7615&v=more) YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCw_aAS7vWI)

Wikis:
Wikia (http://rwby.wikia.com/wiki/RWBY_Wiki)

RWBY Chibi: Spoiler Warning
Playlist: Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/show/rwby-chibi) YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUBVPK8x-XMh_zI3mm54t5zNjruYsfILB)

Previous threads:
0 - Rwby (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275554-Rwby)
1 - RWBY (Ruby) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286363-RWBY-%28Ruby%29)
2 - RWBY 2sday: Birdie, NO!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?304358-RWBY-2sday-Birdie-NO!!!)
3 - RWBY III: These kids just keep getting weirder. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325186-RWBY-III-These-kids-just-keep-getting-weirder)
4 - RWBY IV: I Love These Guys (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364716-RWBY-IV-I-Love-These-Guys)
5 - RWBY V: Inspired by Real Physics! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370105-RWBY-V-Inspired-by-Real-Physics!)
6 - RWBY VI: This thread is also a gun tribute to Monty Oum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?382131-RWBY-VI-This-thread-is-also-a-tribute-to-Monty-Oum)
7 - RWBY VII: Winter is coming here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?455334-RWBY-VII-Winter-is-here)

New episodes are available to the public every Sunday on Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com) at 10:00am CT (4:00pm GMT). This equates to Monday morning in places like Australia (e.g. 2:00am in Queensland) and Sunday afternoon in places like the UK [I will confirm the exact times for the current volume shortly]. Paid subscribers can access it a full day early. It is then uploaded to YouTube a week later.

We are currently between seasons. The next season is scheduled to start on 22 October 2016 (https://twitter.com/RoosterTeeth/status/748968222913761280). However, in the interim, a series of non-canonical animated shorts (called RWBY Chibi) are being released weekly on Rooster Teeth (http://roosterteeth.com/show/rwby-chibi) (free membership required to watch in first week, paid membership to watch on first day) and a week later on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUBVPK8x-XMh_zI3mm54t5zNjruYsfILB).

Rawhide's recommendation:
Watch Episode 1 first, followed by the four trailers in order, then all remaining episodes starting with Episode 2 in order. You can skip all remaining trailers (and most bonus footage, such as opening titles animation) as they are your more traditional trailers made from scenes from the show, while the first four trailers are new footage and include story elements not included in the series proper. However, do not skip the World of Remnant videos, as they include useful information regarding things such as how the technology in the series works. Warning: Don't watch the first volume of RWBY Chibi until after completion of Volume 3, as it contains spoilers.

Notes on terminology:
Throughout these threads you will see people refer to things as a volume, season, chapter, and episode. There is currently no functional difference between a volume and a season, so these two terms are currently synonymous. In most of their material, Rooster Teeth refer to a season as a volume.

While it is largely synonymous, there is, however, an important distinction between chapter and episode that you should be aware of to prevent confusion. For Volume 1, 10 episodes (termed "chapters") were planned. However, in order to release one episode per week to the internet, Rooster Teeth opted to slice some of these chapters into two parts. This resulted in the 10 original chapters (released on the DVD and BluRay in their original 10 episode form) being split into 16 episodes on the web. This can make some things confusing when referring to the episode numbers between different mediums. Rooster Teeth have promised not to do this for future volumes.

Chapter

Title

Episodes

1

Ruby Rose

1

2

The Shining Beacon

2 & 3

3

The First Step

4 & 5

4

The Emerald Forest

6 & 7

5

Players and Pieces

8

6

The Badge and The Burden

9 & 10

7

Jaunedice

11 & 12

8

Forever Fall

13 & 14

9

The Stray

15

10

Black & White

16

Due in part to the staggered release of the episodes (e.g. not making it to YouTube for a full week), we have a much tighter ship regarding spoilers than you may be used to. Please be sure to read the full spoiler rules for RWBY below.

Official note on spoilers:

After a new episode is posted at Rooster Teeth's site, discussion about that episode will be considered spoilers for no less than one week, and all discussion about it must be done in spoiler boxes.
Anything released prior to that (RTX, leaks, etc.) will be considered spoilers until no earlier than one week after the official reveal in the episode it relates to on Rooster Teeth's site.
All spoiler boxes must indicate clearly in the spoiler box's title (i.e. [spoiler=title]) what episode it is spoiling (even when replying), including the volume and episode number.
This period of one week is a minimum amount only. You should consider using spoiler boxes for longer, particularly for larger spoilers.
It is recommended, but not mandatory, that you consider using spoiler boxes for older information to assist new fans still catching up. Again, please indicate the episode in the spoiler box's title.

The YouTube videos, for one, are a week behind, and on top of new people walking into the thread from YouTube without knowing, we have people who cannot watch it from the official site. Keeping them labelled like this is important for those behind so that they know what is safe to open and what isn't. When replying to spoilers without a title, it becomes difficult to determine which episode it was referring to. e.g. "Was the original post about the current episode or a previous episode but the discussion is still ongoing?"

For the purposes of this thread, please never use a spoiler box without a title. If it's not a spoiler but, for example, you're just keeping things such as images, off topic discussion, or walls of text tidy, please mention that in the spoiler box title. When breaking up quotes, always remember to reinsert the spoiler box title.

Thread purpose:
This is a thread for fans of RWBY to chill out and relax, to discuss the goings on of RWBY. It is intended for discussions about in universe events you noticed in the episodes, speculation, theories, fan art, news, information revealed by staff and cast members, etc.

We all know that RWBY is far from a perfect series, there are many flaws with the animation, voice acting, audio, and so on, though in general we all recognise that it is getting better overall. However, discussion that was purely critical of the show's creation and creators overrode and hindered the more general discussion about what had happened in the most recent episodes. In between seasons, this is not that huge of a deal, but during the running of a current season, it can overwhelm the thread and lead to a place that feels hostile and uninviting rather than relaxing to fans of the series.

It is for this reason that the much more critical and in depth arguments about what people feel is wrong about the show or how events which have already taken place in the show should be re-written now have a thread of their own (Rewriting RWBY: Stepping into Monty’s fancy shoes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434380-Rewriting-RWBY-Stepping-into-Monty%92s-fancy-shoes)). This will hopefully allow both types of discussions to thrive, without either majorly impacting on the other. This is in the experimental stages, and we are still working through which types of discussions go where. We'll learn as we go along and try to better delineate the difference or change it to what works better over time.

If what you're doing is making a complaint about the creators of the show/some aspect about how the show was created or should have been created, then it's deemed to be part of the rewrite thread, even if you personally are not rewriting it. Pretty much everything else remains here.

It's very important for these rules not to not stifle discussion, or create an environment which acts like an echo chamber of purely positive comments, which is something we are desperately trying to avoid in this experiment. Remember that it's perfectly fine to discuss how you don't like a character because of who they are in this thread, but when it becomes about disliking the quality of writing for the character, it should go to the rewrite thread.

Rawhide

2016-07-06, 10:21 PM

With the release of RWBY: Grimm Eclipse on Steam, volumes 1, 2, and 3 or RWBY are now available to rent or purchase on Steam!

WARNING:
My recommendation is that you don't touch these with a 100 foot barge pole. All movies/shows available to buy or rent on Steam are for streaming only. You cannot download, save, store, backup, transfer, etc. any video purchases from Steam. This isn't Rooster Teeth's doing, it's Valve's.

I've also read reports that it doesn't include any bonus content. So, you are literally paying to stream what you can stream for free. If you'd like to support Rooster Teeth/RWBY, I suggest you buy the DVD(s) or BluRay(s) and/or become a sponsor on their site (which, amongst other things, grants you access to RWBY one day early). Don't support Valve's business model.

Reddish Mage

2016-07-07, 12:02 AM

Normally Valve's business model is a model that deserves supporting. Paying a substantial sum to stream RWBY when it's literally available for free....that suggests carelessness or inflexibility or both....

...That's what I thought at first. However, RWBY is available on Netflix, on iTunes and on Crunchyroll. On two of the sites they pay RT for the rights to stream it through their platform. iTunes charges the standard rate. There's probably a ton other platforms that have RWBY and either pay RT for it or charge users for it, like Xbox store and Hulu and so on...

Valve is just a smaller time platform but it supports it's own set of devices and works much like the other content-delivery services with its own experience. No reason they shouldn't charge like everyone else does.

LaZodiac

2016-07-07, 12:23 AM

Rawhide

2016-07-07, 02:53 AM

Normally Valve's business model is a model that deserves supporting.

I disagree entirely. Valve's business model regarding the sale of movies/shows for streaming only is horrible. If you buy it on iTunes, you can download it and save it. If you buy it on Google Play, you can download it and save it. If you buy it on Steam, you cannot.

Paying a substantial sum to stream RWBY when it's literally available for free....that suggests carelessness or inflexibility or both....

...That's what I thought at first. However, RWBY is available on Netflix, on iTunes and on Crunchyroll. On two of the sites they pay RT for the rights to stream it through their platform. iTunes charges the standard rate. There's probably a ton other platforms that have RWBY and either pay RT for it or charge users for it, like Xbox store and Hulu and so on...

Valve is just a smaller time platform but it supports it's own set of devices and works much like the other content-delivery services with its own experience. No reason they shouldn't charge like everyone else does.

As addressed above, if you buy it on iTunes, you get to download and keep it for as long as you want. You can save and backup the files. You can transfer the files between devices. Unfortunately, iTunes still includes DRM on video files, so I don't recommend that either (but then again, so does Google Play, UltraViolet, etc. If you were going to buy a digital copy on any of them, iTunes is the best).

Netflix and Crunchyroll are fundamentally different. At no point have you paid directly for RWBY and RWBY only. You're paying for a streaming service which just happens to include streams which are also available free alongside the regular content which is not. I would never suggest paying for Netflix or Crunchyroll to stream RWBY. I would, however, suggest paying for Netflix or Crunchyroll to stream all of those other shows which are available. If, once you have either of those services, you find streaming RWBY more convenient on that service, then that's merely a side benefit.

Mrc.

2016-07-07, 06:40 AM

Hey guys, it's been a while. Sorry I've not popped by on occasion, it's just Real Life (read: university) is pretty intense and I've not really had time to watch the final couple of episodes of RWBY. Until now. I'll be doing a full analysis at some point but first let me say:

WOW!

They REALLY went in there, and honestly it answered a lot of the issues I and a few others had with the show. Season 3 was generally a huge improvement on the previous one and I eagerly await season 4. If I were to critique it I'd say some of the last few episodes felt a little rushed but really that was pretty 'armless.

Get it?

Because Yang.

......

I'll see myself out

Metahuman1

2016-07-07, 11:32 AM

Please do that. And don't quit your day job.

Edit:

En, Rin bit was not horrible but a tad underwhelming. The Wiess Ruby skit though was decided one of the weaker bits.

LaZodiac

2016-07-09, 10:14 AM

Oh hey RWBY Chibi 9 is out.

...somehow they've exceeded themselves from last time. I cannot understand how you can make something so unfunny. "YOU MADE ME DO THIS" *fish flops on Weiss's desk*.

The bit with Ren might be funny if Ren...had a character. At all. I'm guessing this'll be a recurring gag too.

.......that's IT?! Two skits. Not even funny skits. Skits that exceptionally overstayed their welcome or just weren't really that funny. Ah, this feels like home again.

Reddish Mage

2016-07-09, 10:24 AM

I disagree entirely. Valve's business model regarding the sale of movies/shows for streaming only is horrible. If you buy it on iTunes, you can download it and save it. If you buy it on Google Play, you can download it and save it. If you buy it on Steam, you cannot.

As addressed above, if you buy it on iTunes, you get to download and keep it for as long as you want. You can save and backup the files. You can transfer the files between devices. Unfortunately, iTunes still includes DRM on video files, so I don't recommend that either...

I think when we get into the fine details of pay per download vs renting a streaming library vs pay for a particular video stream...we are getting into FNKY gymnastics. If people like Valve enough to pay for a stream that's there business...if everyone else sees what Valve is doing, finds it can work, and decides get rid of video downloads altogether that's a battle for another time.

I didn't know you could get popular content DRM-free these day through any pay service.

Rawhide

2016-07-09, 11:53 AM

I think when we get into the fine details of pay per download vs renting a streaming library vs pay for a particular video stream...we are getting into FNKY gymnastics.

Negative. There is a clear distinction. Especially when the streaming is otherwise free and includes no bonus content in the paid release. But even then, I'd sooner support a service which allows downloads than one which only allows streaming of content you have purchased to own individually.

The fact that RWBY is also available on subscription based streaming libraries is a false equivalency to what I was stating and in no way undermines the fact that Steam's video service is incredibly inferior to other such services which allow downloading and saving of the content. It also doesn't change the fact that (according to reports from disappointed purchasers) it does not include any additional content you cannot already get for free. What reason do you have to pay Valve when there are better ways to get the content? You can get the same content for free, or you can pay the same amount or less for better content. I do recommend supporting Rooster Teeth, but I don't recommend supporting them this way, so I provided alternative methods of providing them with your money while getting better value and a better service for what you pay.

If people like Valve enough to pay for a stream that's there business...if everyone else sees what Valve is doing, finds it can work, and decides get rid of video downloads altogether that's a battle for another time.

If you had the opportunity to warn people you know that between two services which cost the same, one is clearly a lot better, would you? I'm not talking jumping into their conversations when you weren't invited and ramming it down their throats, I mean providing a review of a service in an appropriate place.

Businesses only change their attitudes when people vote with their feet. You can spend the same amount or less to own the content digitally with the ability to download and save or in physical form. It's a battle for now.

Buying the series on Steam provides you with only the ability to stream the content you can already stream for free and you get no bonus content. You cannot download it, you cannot save it, you cannot back it up, you cannot transfer it between devices. In order to watch the shows, you must stream it every single time, adding to your download usage (not good when it's limited) and it can only be streamed when you have a fast, solid, and stable internet connection. My review of Steam's video content service: Terrible.

Buy it on iTunes or another service such as Google Play and you can either stream it or download the files to your device to play again and again without streaming. This is a much better service to the end user. Having used both of these pay-to-own services (and some others, such as UltraViolet), I can say that of all of these, iTunes works the best (but is not without its flaws).

Alternatively, there's the DVD and BluRay releases, but you lose the ability to stream your purchased version (vs iTunes, etc) and must have the physical copies (of course, you can always still stream the free versions). In some ways this is the better option, in others not. The DVD and BluRay releases are not region locked.

I didn't know you could get popular content DRM-free these day through any pay service.

You can't, which is why I don't buy from any of them and don't personally recommend them (movies I own on them have all been bonus digital copy with physical release or other free movie offers). If I was forced to recommend the best of the bunch, despite not recommending anyone in the bunch, it would be iTunes.

---

Oh Jaune, oh Pyrrha, oh Ren and Nora.

Sith_Happens

2016-07-09, 01:40 PM

Hello thread, long time no see. I find your lack of discussion on the Volume Four (rough cut) trailer disturbing.

Link (RTX leak, will unlink if that's a problem). {Link removed}

Three things stand out to me:

1. The animation and effects (particularly the lighting and shadows) are noticeably different; word is they switched from Poser to Maya.

2. The fight choreography and cinematography seem really... off to me in a way I can't quite place. Don't know if that's related to the above or just a product of the trailer being unfinished.

3. Ruby has clearly been training under a certain other eyeball-powered speedster:

http://rs856.pbsrc.com/albums/ab130/ItaSasu72/ItachisCrows.gif~c200

I am okay with this.:smallcool:

Reddish Mage

2016-07-09, 04:39 PM

R+N indeed! Nora is carrying a torch, Boop is her love song, and the "notice me" sign is for one particular other person.

Also, does that two iPhone thing actually work? I'm interested.

Malak'ai

2016-07-09, 08:38 PM

How is everyone able to watch Chibisode 10?

I'm a free (unpaid) member of the RT site and it's still coming up with the whole "Get your free trial" thing... Is there something I'm missing? Or is the whole "you get the new content 1 day after sponsers" thing only for the FIRST members?

Reddish Mage

2016-07-09, 11:11 PM

Rawhide

2016-07-10, 01:10 AM

Also, does that two iPhone thing actually work? I'm interested.

Work in what way?

How is everyone able to watch Chibisode 10?

I'm a free (unpaid) member of the RT site and it's still coming up with the whole "Get your free trial" thing... Is there something I'm missing? Or is the whole "you get the new content 1 day after sponsers" thing only for the FIRST members?

I believe you can still get that free trial if you just create an account.

Chibisode 10 is currently only available to paid members for... *checks* almost half a day still. If you want to watch it right now, you need to be a paid member or have a free trial. If you wait half a day, you can watch it for free as long as you are a free member.

Note: That message is slightly misleading as it hasn't been updated. People without a free membership do have to wait a full week, but having a free membership reduces that to 1 day (it's just that the 1 day hasn't passed yet).

Malak'ai

2016-07-10, 01:38 AM

Work in what way?

Chibisode 10 is currently only available to paid members for... *checks* almost half a day still. If you want to watch it right now, you need to be a paid member or have a free trial. If you wait half a day, you can watch it for free as long as you are a free member.

Note: That message is slightly misleading as it hasn't been updated. People without a free membership do have to wait a full week, but having a free membership reduces that to 1 day (it's just that the 1 day hasn't passed yet).

Derp... I got my dates wrong... I forgot it get released on Saturday morning, not Friday... Damn international time differences... :smallredface:.

Kantaki

2016-07-10, 10:45 AM

Oh the irony. If Ren only knew how fitting his observation is.:smallbiggrin:
And Zombie-Pyrrha is still great.

Ruby's painting is the best.:smallbiggrin: The best way to mess with Weiss.

And Nora marks her territory. Very subtle and sneaky-like.:smallamused:

Reddish Mage

2016-07-10, 02:46 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2016-07-10, 03:58 PM

I watched the Season 4 trailer muted. It just looked like a rehash of the Red trailer.

I'll try sitting through any monologue or dialogue when it's officially released on the site.

LaZodiac

2016-07-11, 12:08 AM

Two things

I mean can you actually do work on two iPhones, it looks like the sort of craziness our heiress did just to tune out Juane

i'll eat these words if Zodi doesn't say this one's awesome.

I think the only thing the RWBY critics with us will gripe about is how it was spoiled by reminding us towards the end that it was still RWBY...Ruby exchanged a few words with JNR.

I'll cook it up nice for you since I'm a good chef :smallamused:

The trailer was bad. The choreography was weaker than it's ever been, and while the GRAPHICS have improved to a degree, and sooome of the effects some of the time, have improved the actual fight animation continues to be as good as or worse as it's always been. Someow the game continues to have very slightly better graphical effects on attack swings, and there continues to be basically no feeling of impact, even when Ruby's scythe literally stops dead in the darkness meat of the giant gorilla grimm. For the most part it just wasn't that exciting. Maybe it'll come off better when it's not gotten off a recording.

One thing I do REALLY want to point out, that is far more indicative of the perceptive quality of this trailer. This is at RTX, with the die-hardiest of the diehard fanboys. Watch their reactions to the trailer. There are four or five moments in the trailer where they should be going nuts...but nothing. They do not react. At all.

I have a feeling RWBY is on it's last legs guys. The potential is there, clearer than ever, but RT can't fulfill it, and even the die hard fans are decidedly unhyped.

Lethologica

2016-07-11, 03:58 AM

Selling post-Monty RWBY on animation quality seems like a mistake, because RWBY fans are more likely to idolize Monty and compare everything unfavorably to Monty's work. Doubly so when the trailer invites the comparison. On the other hand, if the point is to reassure people that the animation won't suck just because they're moving to Maya or whatever, that's not a terrible goal. Even so, I think the selling points are the stakes, the scope, and the characters, none of which really got much of anything from the trailer. Therefore: trailer ideation, D; trailer execution, B; anticipation of the next season, pretty much unchanged, since the trailer doesn't tell me anything about the qualities I think will matter. Grades subject to change if additional trailers are released, since this trailer looks different as part of a package than as a standalone.

Sith_Happens

2016-07-11, 09:31 AM

DoctorFaust

2016-07-11, 10:14 AM

Hello thread, long time no see. I find your lack of discussion on the Volume Four (rough cut) trailer disturbing.

It looks to me like the artstyle's changed a bit, and I like it a liiitle bit more than I did the first two seasons. I also prefer Ruby's new costume, assuming that it's actually a new costume and not just a modification of her casual clothes. The music and sound design also seem to be a bit better than the S3 trailer.

That said, the trailer doesn't look very good to me. Shots linger, it looks like there's a few empty frames at the beginning and end of every animation, the camerawork is noticeably bad at points, and the choreography seems to have gotten slightly worse. And to mirror a comment Zodi's made a lot about Chibi, I think it would've been better if there hadn't bee any talking. The shots at the end of Weiss, Blake, and Yang also seemed a bit out of place, and it felt to me like they made the trailer drag out past when it should've ended. Not by a lot, but enough to make me notice it.

But yeah, definitely not something that would convince me to start watching again. TBH, it doesn't really make me feel anything. But who knows, maybe it'll be better when I'm not having to watch a cellphone recording of it.

Lethologica

2016-07-11, 11:15 AM

FWIW, the shots of WBY at the end are a mirror of the shadow-girls at the end of the Red trailer.

Malak'ai

2016-07-11, 11:31 AM

I'll cook it up nice for you since I'm a good chef :smallamused:

The trailer was bad. The choreography was weaker than it's ever been, and while the GRAPHICS have improved to a degree, and sooome of the effects some of the time, have improved the actual fight animation continues to be as good as or worse as it's always been. Someow the game continues to have very slightly better graphical effects on attack swings, and there continues to be basically no feeling of impact, even when Ruby's scythe literally stops dead in the darkness meat of the giant gorilla grimm. For the most part it just wasn't that exciting. Maybe it'll come off better when it's not gotten off a recording.

One thing I do REALLY want to point out, that is far more indicative of the perceptive quality of this trailer. This is at RTX, with the die-hardiest of the diehard fanboys. Watch their reactions to the trailer. There are four or five moments in the trailer where they should be going nuts...but nothing. They do not react. At all.

I have a feeling RWBY is on it's last legs guys. The potential is there, clearer than ever, but RT can't fulfill it, and even the die hard fans are decidedly unhyped.

Selling post-Monty RWBY on animation quality seems like a mistake, because RWBY fans are more likely to idolize Monty and compare everything unfavorably to Monty's work. Doubly so when the trailer invites the comparison. On the other hand, if the point is to reassure people that the animation won't suck just because they're moving to Maya or whatever, that's not a terrible goal. Even so, I think the selling points are the stakes, the scope, and the characters, none of which really got much of anything from the trailer. Therefore: trailer ideation, D; trailer execution, B; anticipation of the next season, pretty much unchanged, since the trailer doesn't tell me anything about the qualities I think will matter. Grades subject to change if additional trailers are released, since this trailer looks different as part of a package than as a standalone.

It looks to me like the artstyle's changed a bit, and I like it a liiitle bit more than I did the first two seasons. I also prefer Ruby's new costume, assuming that it's actually a new costume and not just a modification of her casual clothes. The music and sound design also seem to be a bit better than the S3 trailer.

That said, the trailer doesn't look very good to me. Shots linger, it looks like there's a few empty frames at the beginning and end of every animation, the camerawork is noticeably bad at points, and the choreography seems to have gotten slightly worse. And to mirror a comment Zodi's made a lot about Chibi, I think it would've been better if there hadn't bee any talking. The shots at the end of Weiss, Blake, and Yang also seemed a bit out of place, and it felt to me like they made the trailer drag out past when it should've ended. Not by a lot, but enough to make me notice it.

But yeah, definitely not something that would convince me to start watching again. TBH, it doesn't really make me feel anything. But who knows, maybe it'll be better when I'm not having to watch a cellphone recording of it.

Another thing you have to remember (apart from it being a crappy cell rip of something that was supposed to be exclusive to the people who attended that panel at RTX) is that the trailer isn't actually finished yet. Both Kerri and Grey said they still had some touching up of some scenes and a few other things they had to do before it was ready to be properly released to the public.

DoctorFaust

2016-07-11, 12:57 PM

Another thing you have to remember (apart from it being a crappy cell rip of something that was supposed to be exclusive to the people who attended that panel at RTX) is that the trailer isn't actually finished yet. Both Kerri and Grey said they still had some touching up of some scenes and a few other things they had to do before it was ready to be properly released to the public.

Well, a lot of the problems I have with it go beyond touchups or small fixes. Obviously this is based in personal opinion and my own very limited knowledge of animation, but fixing the stuff I'm not liking about the camera work would require reshooting and rerendering a significant amount of the trailer. The choppiness of the animation is probably also a significant amount of work to fix and replace, since basically every movement I saw had some blank space leading in and leading out. Though after some thought, that might also be a problem with the camerawork, rather than with the actual animation.

And correct me if I'm wrong about this, but didn't they say more or less the same thing about the fight they previewed at RTX last year? I know that it's pretty damn different circumstances, but a lot of the big issues I had with the fight were still present in the actual episode. Which doesn't exactly give me high hopes about them fixing the problems I have with this trailer between now and when it's actually released.

Rawhide

2016-07-11, 01:06 PM

Hello thread, long time no see. I find your lack of discussion on the Volume Four (rough cut) trailer disturbing.

Link (RTX leak, will unlink if that's a problem).

I've watched this video once to determine, but I could not tell if this is a video Rooster Teeth allows or not. However, as it is likely to be one they don't, I have removed the link to be on the safe side.

One thing I do REALLY want to point out, that is far more indicative of the perceptive quality of this trailer. This is at RTX, with the die-hardiest of the diehard fanboys. Watch their reactions to the trailer. There are four or five moments in the trailer where they should be going nuts...but nothing. They do not react. At all.

I have a feeling RWBY is on it's last legs guys. The potential is there, clearer than ever, but RT can't fulfill it, and even the die hard fans are decidedly unhyped.

While everyone has followed the rules so far, here is a little reminder: Discussion of any leaked information remains a spoiler until a full week after it's official release.

Well, I guess you see what you want to see. I was especially careful to gauge the audience reaction and I saw not a single sign of boredom or lack of interest. There was no slouching or slumping in their chairs, no fidgeting, no looking away, no looking around, no yawning, no rocking. Every single person was fixated on the screen in front of them.

What I saw were people who were very intent in what they saw, absorbing every bit of information they possibly could, and were respectful of not ruining the experience for others. They started cheering when the mood of intense fixation was broken as a natural consequence of cutting away to the other characters, exactly as you expect they might, and got louder when they knew it was over and wouldn't disturb everyone else.

LaZodiac

2016-07-11, 01:14 PM

What I saw were people who were very intent in what they saw, absorbing every bit of information they possibly could, and were respectful of not ruining the experience for others. They started cheering when the mood of intense fixation was broken as a natural consequence of cutting away to the other characters, exactly as you expect they might, and got louder when they knew it was over and wouldn't disturb everyone else.

Well, we're each going to read the situation different, but maybe it's just me but even if they ARE intent and into it,t he fact that they don't don't cheer when certain things happen, or gasp when other things happen, will look like bad optics if nothing else.

Basically, it's weird to me that fans, especially RT fans, would wait respectfully until the end to react AT ALL. Even Steven Universe fans go crazy watching promo clips at Comiccon and stuff.

Lethologica

2016-07-11, 02:11 PM

Well, we're each going to read the situation different, but maybe it's just me but even if they ARE intent and into it,t he fact that they don't don't cheer when certain things happen, or gasp when other things happen, will look like bad optics if nothing else.

Basically, it's weird to me that fans, especially RT fans, would wait respectfully until the end to react AT ALL. Even Steven Universe fans go crazy watching promo clips at Comiccon and stuff.
This wasn't a trailer built on hype moments. If you look at hype trailers, you can trace the beats that build each hype moment and call the applause before it even happens. Not all trailers can or should be like that. In this case, we're clearly doing a Red trailer homage, so there isn't the same sort of reveal hype, because the audience is already familiar with the beats of the trailer. The goal is different. I don't necessarily agree with the choice, for reasons I mentioned earlier, but you're judging a fish on tree-climbing ability here.

LaZodiac

2016-07-11, 02:20 PM

This wasn't a trailer built on hype moments. If you look at hype trailers, you can trace the beats that build each hype moment and call the applause before it even happens. Not all trailers can or should be like that. In this case, we're clearly doing a Red trailer homage, so there isn't the same sort of reveal hype, because the audience is already familiar with the beats of the trailer. The goal is different. I don't necessarily agree with the choice, for reasons I mentioned earlier, but you're judging a fish on tree-climbing ability here.

Well I mean, if it where me, I might let out a gasp when Ruby's scythe can't hurt the Gorilla. That's really it. The part where she succeeds in killing said Gorilla too, you'd expect fans to start cheering. It just feels weird to me is all :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens

2016-07-12, 01:55 PM

Well, a lot of the problems I have with it go beyond touchups or small fixes. Obviously this is based in personal opinion and my own very limited knowledge of animation, but fixing the stuff I'm not liking about the camera work would require reshooting and rerendering a significant amount of the trailer. The choppiness of the animation is probably also a significant amount of work to fix and replace, since basically every movement I saw had some blank space leading in and leading out. Though after some thought, that might also be a problem with the camerawork, rather than with the actual animation.

IIRC the bolded is not true of Poser (i.e.- you can change the camera without redoing the set or action), no idea about Maya though. As for removing blank space, that's just a matter of cutting out those snippets of time.

DoctorFaust

2016-07-12, 03:22 PM

IIRC the bolded is not true of Poser (i.e.- you can change the camera without redoing the set or action), no idea about Maya though. As for removing blank space, that's just a matter of cutting out those snippets of time.

Well, that just goes to show how much I know about those programs. :smalltongue: And if it is just the camerawork that's causing the blank space, that probably is an easy fix, though that would introduce the slight problem of making sure that the music still syncs up with the action correctly. But if it's actually the animations that have the gaps, that seems like it would be a bigger problem. Again, I'm basing this on my very limited knowledge of animation software, so feel free to tell me just how incredibly wrong I am, but it seems like modifying and replacing the animations that the rigs use would be a fairly significant amount of work.

Reddish Mage

2016-07-12, 07:35 PM

Malak'ai

2016-07-13, 12:17 PM

I don't think those words agreed with me :smallyuk:

next time I'll try your cooking Zodi, just no words :wink:

I'd say more on Season 4 trailer and speculation on season 4, but I'll leave asking people to speculate on the story for the (p)rewrite RWBY thread.

I understand that the time skip is only 6-8 months...is it just me who finds it odd that it appears RWBY all had a growth spurt? Also, if it wasn't clear from the trailer, RNJR is official, we'll finally be learning about the origins of Grimm this season, and Miles "can't confirm details regarding an English translation of the Manga" which confirms that there will be an official English translation of the manga :smallcool:.

I don't find it odd for the girls. IRL I know a lot of girls who had a late teen growth spurt. I would however find it strange for the guys appearence to have changed too much from that of the previous volumes.
I have no scientific evidence for this next statement, it's purely from personal observation, but a guy's appearence doesn't change much after the end of purberty except for maybe some 'setting' of features that depend on skeletal growth or structure eg; jaw and shoulders, which doesn't stop until late teens, but height? No. That should still be the same for the guys.

Now about the manga, even though I haven't read it (and don't actually plan on reading it), why would Miles not being able to confirm if a company he has no creative association with other than them occasionally asking him to confirm certain details about plot/character design, who have taken it upon themselves to create it, with RoosterTeeth's permission, is going to be doing an english translation? Especially when that company isn't based in the same country as him and doesn't consult him on any of the other aspects concerning the business side of producing the manga?
Also, the manga isn't "official". It's being created by a third party with permission from RT. If RT wanted an official manga, they would have orginised it themselves, with a studio/artists they chose, not someone who came to them asking to be allowed to do it.

Reddish Mage

2016-07-13, 07:13 PM

I got three letters for you NDA

Malak'ai

2016-07-13, 11:18 PM

I got three letters for you NDA

And here's a simple phrase.
He simply doesn't know.

I'm not trying to insist for certain that he doesn't have that knowledge, or that he's just playing games, but just because he says he can't confirm anything about the manga, which is, as I said previously, being created by a different company, doesn't mean he's under a NDA.
I've been under NDA's for one to the companies I used to work for, and when I used to get asked about things from people wanting to know, 90% of the time they were asking about things I had absolutely no idea about because it didn't pertain to my position, or what I was working on at the time.

Basically what I'm trying to say is; don't jump to conclusions just because that conclusion happens to line up with something you want to happen.

LaZodiac

2016-07-13, 11:29 PM

Rawhide

2016-07-14, 12:01 AM

Unless the manga gets serialized it coming over to the west doesn't matter because it's a miniseries that details all of the trailers but in slightly more and better detail. Nothing super relevant I think. Though if it does get serialized watch out.

We're not missing anything anyway. I read the first issue when I was trying to determine if I needed to remove the link posted here or not (I did remove it), it wasn't all that good, and the fight scenes were very hard to follow.

LaZodiac

2016-07-14, 12:21 AM

We're not missing anything anyway. I read the first issue when I was trying to determine if I needed to remove the link posted here or not (I did remove it), it wasn't all that good, and the fight scenes were very hard to follow.

Maybe if you're not used to manga. The fighting isn't SUPER great compared to other, better series, but I feel the manga is leagues better than the show in terms of actual readability.

Rawhide

2016-07-14, 01:55 AM

I feel the manga is leagues better than the show in terms of actual readability.

Considering that I throughly enjoyed the show, and found the manga basically unreadable, I dispute this.

Metahuman1

2016-07-14, 03:16 AM

Ok, that middle skit was mediocre at best (I was kinda disappointed that when Blakes pic was revealed she didn't have it done up like some kind of Corgie themed Lovecraftian horror.) But the other two were freaking hilarious!

As for the trailer. Meh. Fight choreography is continuing to improve I suppose, but I notice that the grim seem to be having a much easier time battering Ruby around then before. I'll write that off as them getting stronger cause everything's gone to hell for now.

Apart form that, far as I'm concerned the volume and series are still on probation.

Rawhide

2016-07-22, 08:51 AM

Why did no one remind me the last RWBY Chibi episode was released?

Pancakes!

Reddish Mage

2016-07-22, 09:08 AM

We all got together and decided to be quiet about it to see how long it would take for you to notice.

On an unrelated note, someone owes me five bucks :smallamused:

LaZodiac

2016-07-22, 09:49 AM

I've been busy with Project: Take This Seriously with regards to my internet stuff. Hey guys check out my Patreon if you want to know how to get RWBY Tuesday back (I just don't really have the time otherwise).

Haven't watched any of the new chibi yet, but there was two manga updates. We're in the Yang trailer part...and it actually reveals some new information. Also some dumb stuff.

This is the first chapter where the art is just actually bad. There's no background, at all, it's basically trash garbage. Also, Junior has this weird sort of phat lip look to him that I don't get. The two sisters at his bar are basically non characters though that's nothing new. What gets me the most, even beyond complete and total lack of backgrounds...is that Yang looks ****ING DERANGED. She looks absolutely god damn insane in every panel of these two chapters. Especially when she starts using her aura power.

Incidentally, a cute but kind of stupid flashback exchange between Yang and Ruby. "Sis your hair is all black and shiny and cool!" "Yeah, but your hair looks like a roaring yellow sun dragon!" "DON'T SAY THAT ABOUT A GIRLS LOOKS RUBY :<!!"

It's really cute but also exceptionally stupidly "exactly on point" if you get what I mean. Also the droogs are all wielding the placeholder axes and that's hilarious.

Reddish Mage

2016-07-22, 03:43 PM

Can you feel it? There has been an awakening...

I find the lack of backgrounds disturbing

LaZodiac

2016-07-22, 03:47 PM

Can you feel it? There has been an awakening...

I find the lack of backgrounds disturbing

It's one of the Big Flaws I've heard mentioned about the mangaka they've got doing it. It HEAVILY shows here. A shame too because it makes the fight almost unreadable, and again Yang looks like she's basically a monster and insane.

Metahuman1

2016-07-28, 01:42 AM

What gets me the most, even beyond complete and total lack of backgrounds...is that Yang looks ****ING DERANGED. She looks absolutely god damn insane in every panel of these two chapters. Especially when she starts using her aura power.

Was that not a major complaint about Yang since always? "Oh, she's a deranged violent sociopathic unrealistic invincible Shonen Psyco?"

LaZodiac

2016-07-28, 01:46 AM

Was that not a major complaint about Yang since always? "Oh, she's a deranged violent sociopathic unrealistic invincible Shonen Psyco?"

That's always been her personality, but this is the first time she's actually looked like she's outright unsound in the brain. If the mangaka bothered to draw backgrounds at all these chapters might actually be fantastic because it shows Yang to be what she really is, an actual monster in human skin.

I say this as someone who does actually kind of like Yang, I just think her personality is definitely of someone who would probably kill someone if she wanted to.

Lord Raziere

2016-07-28, 01:59 AM

Was that not a major complaint about Yang since always? "Oh, she's a deranged violent sociopathic unrealistic invincible Shonen Psyco?"

Oddly enough, thats basically the same complaint I had with Luffy.

Yet I still like Yang Xiaolong more, even if the complaint can technically apply to both.

So......I dunno whats going on there. We can both find the trope bad, yet me and Zodi find that badness in completely opposite characters, probably for different reasons. Strange.

I guess its mostly style? I just like RWBY's style and tone for how it handles that sort of thing in some ways and how Yang is humanized in her interactions with her sister and people outside of combat and not being entirely one note. I guess you could say she is psycho, but she is MY psycho.

LaZodiac

2016-07-28, 02:03 AM

Oddly enough, thats basically the same complaint I had with Luffy.

Yet I still like Yang Xiaolong more, even if the complaint can technically apply to both.

So......I dunno whats going on there. We can both find the trope bad, yet me and Zodi find that badness in completely opposite characters, probably for different reasons. Strange.

I guess its mostly style? I just like RWBY's style and tone for how it handles that sort of thing in some ways and how Yang is humanized in her interactions with her sister and people outside of combat and not being entirely one note. I guess you could say she is psycho, but she is MY psycho.

For me it's more that Luffy's got no malicious intent to it. He's actually just a very strong person who's kind of stupid. He means no actual harm unless you piss him off. Yang destroyed Junior's entire bar as a temper tantrum, for basically no reason beyond 'they are rude to me'. The other thing is...Luffy is our protagonist, but he IS still pirate. Luffy's not 100% actually meant to BE a shining beacon of goodness. Yang, obstensibly, IS, as a huntress. So when I see Manga!Yang get this deranged look in her eye like "hell yeah I'm gonna kill these twins" it's kinda ****ed up. When Luffy punches someone in the face I'm reminded of him saying that he's not a hero, because heroes have to share their meat, and I WANNA EAT THE WHOLE MEAT!

So it's the context, basically.

Metahuman1

2016-07-28, 03:59 AM

Which is kind of Ironic since a point they've made several times now is that while yeah, the marketing and the theory of the Hunters/Huntresses is that they are these great and good shining bacons of hope and light and all that is pure and noble and admirable, the reality is that no, no, that is not even close to how it actually works in practice, as evidenced by just about every person we've seen who's actually graduated Hunter/Huntress training so far, to say nothing of all the crap that happened in the latter half of season 3.

Also, the fact that she has humanizing interactions at all with her sister and Blake and the others, that she is shown to have doubts and fears, destroyed that argument before we even got to the volume 2 finally. During which she lost a fight. And then she got set up and played for a chum and had her reputation at this point likely perminatly scarred if not destroyed, and in a failed attempt to rescue a friend got maimed for life and had to be rescued and as utterly helpless to stop the *$(! storm that ensued at the fall of Vale and probably Atlas and maybe the rest of the world in a domino effect.

So, the argument never actually applied. I was just pointing out that the argument has been around as a way to piss on the franchise and that character specifically but the franchise in general by proximity since the beginning, and that it's an augment that doesn't have any validity to it and hasn't for some time yet it keep cropping up form time to time. Since Zodi's complain sounded a LOT like that argument rearing back up for like the billionth time.

LaZodiac

2016-07-28, 08:52 AM

Dasgovernator

2016-09-03, 06:35 AM

Oh Weiss. There's the soul of a ruthless businesswoman in you yet.:biggrin:

Yang's dad jokes go over about as well as could be expected. And Sun raises oddly relevant questions about Beacon's graduation policies . . .

Jaune's self-awareness his increased in level I see. Followed by him doing an extended "wetting his pants" routine. I wonder if he realizes he's not just a supporting character, but also the comic relief?

I'd ask where Nora is getting these Grimm from, but I forgot Beacon is apparently one cliff side away from a forest full of them. I really think the main show did her relationship with Ren better, the Chibi stuff is getting a little . . .forced. Whatever happened to her being like shy about it, contrasting with her otherwise extremely exuberant personality? I think it added a lot of depth to her character beyond whatever ___Dere hyperactive is.

And the Junior Detectives are back again. Great. At least in this one we get to see Chibi Emerald and Mercury stealing their bikes. I went back over that part like 5 times and I've yet to figure out why they are supposed to have their arms locked in that position. Is this a joke about stiff animation that I'm just missing or something?

I get the feeling you're going to be able to put all the Chibi-skits that are actually funny into a <10 minute video by the time Vol 4 starts. Oh well, I guess we can't really expect more from completely non-canon filler. Still better than Naruto's at least.

Rawhide

2016-09-04, 12:22 PM

Oops. Completely forgot that RWBY Chibi existed.

There's a line in here that LaZodiac will really appreciate.
Nora let Jaune get off easy.
Finally settled their differences. :smallsmile:
Yang's motorcycle looks good in this style.
Way to start the year off with a Yang.
Nora broke another one...
Weiss is on fire today!

Reddish Mage

2016-09-08, 08:47 PM

[QUOTE=Rawhide;21169219]Oops. Completely forgot that RWBY Chibi existed.

There's a line in here that LaZodiac will really appreciate.

I second this. <----totally get to break out of spoiler at this point especially because it doesn't spoil anything

LaZodiac

2016-09-08, 09:50 PM

Hawkflight

2016-09-08, 10:39 PM

I'll look at the episode when I have time so I can put my two cents in since everyone who matters wants it :smalltongue:

If I recall episode 12 is one my friend who likes RWBY says was "the worst garbage". So that'll be fun.

Eh, honestly? I can see where he's coming from. The first skit is ... kind of offensive. But the second (and final) skit is so amazing it made me forget all about the first one anyways, so. XD

Dasgovernator

2016-09-10, 07:04 AM

Okay, this was not terrible. Yang going HAM on the pickle jar was kinda cute, Team Evil's Evil Plan made me smirk, if only in an "Emerald makes a good point" sort of way, and the last one had a good idea ruined with "4 cake butlers" line and unruined with "Since when are drapes flammable!"

See, part of me wanted this series to flesh out some of the characters a bit, in non-canon humorous situations of course, but helping to make up for the series's like 8-hour total run time over 3 seasons. It's definitely at its strongest hints of that are shining through. The "What if the series was a parody of itself" skits . . .not so much.

LaZodiac

2016-09-10, 10:36 AM

There's a line in here that LaZodiac will really appreciate.

Okay you monsters I'll watch this.

I'm going to assume the line people are thinking of is "Why does this have two axe blades, you can't even aim?", right? Because otherwise that was just...the worst thing, I've ever seen.

Rawhide

2016-09-10, 11:13 AM

that was just...the worst thing, I've ever seen.

Personal preference.

Ramza00

2016-09-10, 12:22 PM

Oops. Completely forgot that RWBY Chibi existed.

I did the exact same thing, missed at least 5 episodes.

Rawhide

2016-09-10, 12:57 PM

Amateurs.

I did the exact same thing, missed at least 5 episodes.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think most of it is all that great. I'll still watch it though, because there's a few gems in it and (due primarily to how short each episode is) the effort to enjoyment ratio is still skewed to enjoyment.

Dasgovernator

2016-09-17, 10:12 AM

Ramza00

2016-09-17, 01:01 PM

Well, that was an unusually good episode. We all knew Zwei was the true hero of RWBY, and the epic pillow fight was a nice little scene that helps develop the main cast's characters a bit. Why can't the rest of RWBY Chibi be like this?

Because if every episode with Sun and Neptune were like this they would easily no longer be in the the "Bros" category and instead be in the Sun+Neptune shipping category.

Rawhide

2016-09-21, 12:36 PM

Roman Torchwick survived!

Neo retains her silent mystique.

Fetching.

---

RWBY fanart!

http://img03.deviantart.net/603f/i/2013/229/6/8/could_you____by_omgwtfdondake-d6im297.jpg
http://img06.deviantart.net/1f7c/i/2015/138/e/c/rwby___my_neighbor_zwei_by_ace_wong-d8tu8r2.jpg
http://adn.i.ntere.st/p/6260348/image
https://fanart.tv/fanart/tv/263999/showbackground/rwby-5402331b46b0c.jpg

LaZodiac

2016-09-21, 01:25 PM

I still like my fan art the best honestly. Though some of those are pretty good too :smallamused:

http://i.imgur.com/BpsD9M3.png

Rawhide

2016-09-21, 01:31 PM

http://orig15.deviantart.net/1ac1/f/2014/140/c/1/rwby_blake_signature_by_raykorn-d7j1ir5.png

Lethologica

2016-09-21, 01:53 PM

http://img06.deviantart.net/1f7c/i/2015/138/e/c/rwby___my_neighbor_zwei_by_ace_wong-d8tu8r2.jpg
You did, 'cause I favorited it and watched the artist on DA. Don't mind seeing it again, though. :smallbiggrin:

http://pre02.deviantart.net/219f/th/pre/i/2013/331/5/3/battlefield_4__rwby_squad_by_ssgt_lulz-d6vtipl.png
http://orig13.deviantart.net/a042/f/2016/054/2/f/pyrrha_alt_by_koyorin-d9sw1l0.jpg
http://pre04.deviantart.net/e99f/th/pre/i/2015/351/9/7/weapons_of_rwby_by_dishwasher1910-d9kf2j0.png
http://pre00.deviantart.net/08d0/th/pre/f/2014/018/d/3/rwby_future_au_by_xenon54165-d72s7yf.jpg

DoctorFaust

2016-09-21, 05:42 PM

Well, if people are just posting fanart now, I'm going to take the opportunity to plug the last two (http://kumafromtaiwan.tumblr.com/henceforward%20AU%20catalog) chapters of Henceforward. (http://kumafromtaiwan.tumblr.com/post/146290011131/at-this-special-day-this-chapter-is-just-for) I don't know whether the speech reminds me more of Mami, Kamina, or Touma, but either way, it's not a bad speech.

And also these two pictures of Yang as the USS Iowa.
http://dishwasher1910.deviantart.com/art/RWBY-Military-girl-collection-USS-Iowa-555646951
https://twitter.com/mojojoj27827860/status/710189198637195264

Dasgovernator

2016-09-24, 03:51 PM

And another non-terrible episode! Man RT, keep this up and I might have to start admitting that I like this series. Two joke bits that are actually funny and then Roman doing a Wile E. Coyote sketch?

Is this the first time we've actually seen Blake call them "Shadow Clones"?

I think Zwei is RT's favorite character in the series. Call it a hunch XD

Ramza00

2016-09-24, 04:00 PM

I am still pissed they killed off Roman in the main series

User_Undefined

2016-09-25, 10:46 AM

Fun fact, all (http://imgur.com/a/uSuKw) the skits (http://eunnieverse.tumblr.com/post/133929888346/so-this-is-the-leader-you-wrote-of-how) are based (http://kinzaibatsu91.tumblr.com/post/95465035029/how-are-we-gonna-sleep-tonight-ive-no-idea) on existing fancomics (http://jumpinjamnamz.deviantart.com/art/BeaconStrips-Cinder-Who-597495286).

Rawhide

2016-09-25, 11:40 AM

Checkmate!

Fun fact, all (http://imgur.com/a/uSuKw) the skits (http://eunnieverse.tumblr.com/post/133929888346/so-this-is-the-leader-you-wrote-of-how) are based (http://kinzaibatsu91.tumblr.com/post/95465035029/how-are-we-gonna-sleep-tonight-ive-no-idea) on existing fancomics (http://jumpinjamnamz.deviantart.com/art/BeaconStrips-Cinder-Who-597495286).

Interesting... I just checked and all of them are properly credited, so I can only assume that they were granted permission.

Dasgovernator

2016-10-01, 06:44 AM

A whole episode of non-terrible bits? Weiss writing a letter feels like it skipped a punchline ("A person"?), the "Checkmate" one could have used a little more buildup, as it took me a little bit to recall that's their combo name (but its still a funny joke), and "Cinder Bawls" felt a little weird, but I'll take jokes that weren't as funny as they could have been over some of the flops this series has given us.

Ramza00

2016-10-01, 11:59 AM

So after watching the episode of Weiss writting a letter to home, I now have the song What is this Feeling stuck in my head from Wicked.

Astral Avenger

2016-10-03, 06:02 PM

RWBY Volume 4 comes out on 10-22. Trailer for Vol. 4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WeiG2-HRQ&ab_channel=RoosterTeeth).

Plot/story stuff:Looks like Ruby has gotten a bit stronger with the whole killing several nevermores like it's nothing. Gorilla grim thing seemed interesting, but I was expecting to have JNR show up to help rather than call in afterwords.

Art Stuff: Well, that is some nice animation, but it feels like a jarring change to me. I tend to prefer that the level of animation remains fairly constant throughout the show, so my inclination is to say the change is not for the better. That being said, trying to put that aside I can happily say that that is some nice animation.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-03, 07:52 PM

I actually like the new artstyle better, but once again, there was noticeable jank in some of the animations and camera work. Less than in the season 3 trailer though, if I'm remembering it correctly. Particle effects looked a little off to me as well, and the 2D drawings of the other characters clashed more than a little. Not a fan of the fact they're making the Grimm even less of a threat now.

And, look, Reddish! They're using speed lines now.

Ramza00

2016-10-03, 09:13 PM

So Ruby in season one was a **** to Trees, but Ruby in season 4 has upgraded to being a **** to Statues.

Note this is a continuation of a meme from Everything Wrong With RWBY In 9 Minutes or Less (CinemaSins Parody) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifQZLi55vlc

On another note I hated the last Ruby vs Roman fight for often the hair was moving in the wrong direction to the wind, or the hair was moving in the wrong direction to the body, or the hair was just spasming for no reason. It ruined the immersion, it just seemed fake and this took away all the fun. Well this seems to be a lot better in this new trailer.

I understand it is actually more complicated than this (for you can use multiple softwares per season, using software 1 for x and 2 for y) but if I recall they used Posner in season 1 2 and 3, and they are now switching to Maya? Chibi if I also recall is in Maya and it is kinda like the practice run for animators who were new to Maya for you are doing a lot less complicated stuff with RWBY chibi vs the more dyanmic, more actiony, and higher polygon stuff in Vol 4.

LaZodiac

2016-10-03, 11:50 PM

Man I sure am glad we got to wait like what, half a year to get this video from RTX on youtube.

I kid of course.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-04, 06:46 AM

I could be misremembering things, but wasn't one of the things they were hyping up about S.3 the fact they had switched from Poser to Maya? I definitely remember them talking about being able to get a higher polycount on the models, but I'm not sure if it was because they had switched programs or not.

Dragonexx

2016-10-04, 04:24 PM

Trailer was kinda underwhelming. Good action, which means the fight scenes aren't **** anymore, but it tells us nothing about the plot of season 4. Not that excited.

Dasgovernator

2016-10-04, 08:40 PM

Trailer was kinda underwhelming. Good action, which means the fight scenes aren't **** anymore, but it tells us nothing about the plot of season 4. Not that excited.

It was a "Character Short". I'm betting the whole point was just to introduce the new art style and ground us a bit after the time skip. We might still get an official trailer before the formal release.

I still swear Blake's outfit is stolen from a Blade movie. If she doesn't impale a giant Bat-Grimm through the heart at some point, I'm going to be very disappointed.

CrazyPenguin

2016-10-05, 08:42 AM

I still swear Blake's outfit is stolen from a Blade movie. If she doesn't impale a giant Bat-Grimm through the heart at some point, I'm going to be very disappointed.

I actually really like Blake's new outfit.

Calemyr

2016-10-05, 12:15 PM

For my part, I thought the trailer was very promising for one reason - the animation was pretty evened out. Back in the day the actual combat was pretty awesome, but everything around it was comically bad (I'm not gonna lie, LaZodiac was never wrong on that point). Even in centerpiece fight scenes, the characters never looked good when just standing, walking, or jumping, and especially running.

This teaser showed us a Ruby that was solidly animated at all times, whether standing, moving, or attacking. It wasn't over-the-top-awesome like the original trailers, but instead proved badass by providing a grimm Ruby couldn't just destroy on a whim, really the first time that's happened since the ancient nevermore and deathstalker back in Pieces and Players. I think the semblance wasn't all that well used (it came off as childishly cartoony in a scene that was anything but), but the overall quality has been not just improved across the board but balanced out so that the weaker points aren't glaring anymore. On the other hand, this is the fourth season. The spectacle isn't going to be the draw anymore. Better to make it an all-around good show instead.

I'm curious if this is an indicator that Ruby isn't the team player she used to be, seeing as she didn't inform her team of the combat. Is she going through a rehash of Blake's "all the responsibility is on me" breakdown? You couldn't blame her if she was, but... Or, possibly, she didn't think it was dangerous enough to be worth distracting them? Dunno, it's just weird seeing Ruby seemingly not wanting her team involved.

Astral Avenger

2016-10-05, 12:26 PM

It was a "Character Short". I'm betting the whole point was just to introduce the new art style and ground us a bit after the time skip. We might still get an official trailer before the formal release.

I still swear Blake's outfit is stolen from a Blade movie. If she doesn't impale a giant Bat-Grimm through the heart at some point, I'm going to be very disappointed.

I want this to happen so badly now. I didn't see it at all until you mentioned it, but now I can't unsee it.

LaZodiac

2016-10-05, 12:40 PM

Back in the day the actual combat was pretty awesome, but everything around it was comically bad (I'm not gonna lie, LaZodiac was never wrong on that point).

On the other hand, this is the fourth season. The spectacle isn't going to be the draw anymore. Better to make it an all-around good show instead.

Awe, you shouldn't have.

I really hope they improved the writing. If the animation is actually good, it won't matter if literally everything else is still bad. We'll see how it goes. When do the new episodes start?

Calemyr

2016-10-05, 02:24 PM

Awe, you shouldn't have.

I really hope they improved the writing. If the animation is actually good, it won't matter if literally everything else is still bad. We'll see how it goes. When do the new episodes start?

They start the 22nd.

I think the writing will be better. A lot of the stupidity was due to the "safety" of the setting. Minimal threats plus major grade backup plus no lasting consequences = goofy and stupid is viable. Now we've seen lasting consequences, the support network has all but dissolved, and the teaser proves that the threats are very real (before Salem and Cinder even come into the picture).

LaZodiac

2016-10-06, 12:00 AM

They start the 22nd.

I think the writing will be better. A lot of the stupidity was due to the "safety" of the setting. Minimal threats plus major grade backup plus no lasting consequences = goofy and stupid is viable. Now we've seen lasting consequences, the support network has all but dissolved, and the teaser proves that the threats are very real (before Salem and Cinder even come into the picture).

Eh, it still feels from this trailer that the threats aren't THAT big a deal. Ruby killed all those guys solo and she's got Nora and Ren helping her. Also Jaune. I also don't think Salem will be doing anything directly this season, and we don't even know how Cinder's doing after getting Awakened at.

Dasgovernator

2016-10-06, 12:27 AM

Eh, it still feels from this trailer that the threats aren't THAT big a deal. Ruby killed all those guys solo and she's got Nora and Ren helping her. Also Jaune. I also don't think Salem will be doing anything directly this season, and we don't even know how Cinder's doing after getting Awakened at.

Yeah, but at this point we have an understanding that there is a point where too many Grimm is actually a real danger, as opposed to say the end of Vol 2 where a Grimm excursion into the city was treated with all the severity of a leaking fire hydrant. Again, they're still "professional" Monster-Hunters who are operating autonomously--they should be reasonably competent at what they do.

LaZodiac

2016-10-06, 09:24 AM

Yeah, but at this point we have an understanding that there is a point where too many Grimm is actually a real danger, as opposed to say the end of Vol 2 where a Grimm excursion into the city was treated with all the severity of a leaking fire hydrant. Again, they're still "professional" Monster-Hunters who are operating autonomously--they should be reasonably competent at what they do.

I don't think it's really high stakes if it's a "well if enough Grimm to overrun an entire city appear then our heroes are ****ed" type situation. Honestly based on what all happened, the only REAL threats where the dragon that kept SPAWNING the Grimm...and Cinder's messing with the phone tower. If all she did was take over the robots and send in a lot of Grimm, I'm fairly confident that while there would of been LOTS of damage to the city, they would of been able to clean it out. The problem was the dragon spawning more of them, constantly and consistently, which isn't a threat we can assume will happen every other day.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-06, 11:11 AM

I really hope they improved the writing. If the animation is actually good, it won't matter if literally everything else is still bad. We'll see how it goes.

The writing has been fine, ya goober, specially last season.

...LaZodiac, maybe this is just a small sample size, but most things I see you comment on you do not seem to enjoy. Do you need an intervention? XD

DoctorFaust

2016-10-06, 01:18 PM

They start the 22nd.

I think the writing will be better. A lot of the stupidity was due to the "safety" of the setting. Minimal threats plus major grade backup plus no lasting consequences = goofy and stupid is viable. Now we've seen lasting consequences, the support network has all but dissolved, and the teaser proves that the threats are very real (before Salem and Cinder even come into the picture).

Those things are all the result of (arguably) bad writing, though, not the other way around. You can still have a mature story with **** writing, in the same way that you can have a childish one written well.

LaZodiac

2016-10-06, 01:29 PM

The writing has been fine, ya goober, specially last season.

...LaZodiac, maybe this is just a small sample size, but most things I see you comment on you do not seem to enjoy. Do you need an intervention? XD

I personally disagree. There were some good moments, yes, last season, but the whole of it was just kind of bleh. Magical powers introduced out of nowhere said to be on the level of a god. Beaten by Cinder and the two chuckle****s. Almost beaten by Pyrrha. No real explanation on what it is and why it's special beyond "it's a special thing". Having to fight with all the OTHER special things.

BRC

2016-10-06, 01:40 PM

DoctorFaust

2016-10-06, 01:52 PM

By the logic of the first two, D&D wizards and sorcerers din't count as magical, because they're "just part of the setting".

BRC

2016-10-06, 01:54 PM

By the logic of the first two, D&D wizards and sorcerers din't count as magical, because they're "just part of the setting".
Hence "Depending on how you count, you have two or four".

Also, note,I said "Special" not "Magical". The first two are special by comparison to our world, but are perfectly mundane on Remnant. The latter two are Special on Remnant as well.

Are we counting the number of different Magic systems, or the number of things that are Super Mega Special Powerful?

LaZodiac

2016-10-06, 03:18 PM

Are we counting the number of different Magic systems, or the number of things that are Super Mega Special Powerful?

I'd say a mix of both. I feel like you can't just slot Dust into the setting and expect people to accept it without explaining it a little. It's magic crystal that can be ground up into powder and power magical abilities. Okay. So why does have dust inside your gun make your Semblance/Aura power different? Also Semblances/Aura Powers are another super mega special thing, and Weiss's is EXACT special because it's apparently a genetic thing whereas others are seemingly not.

And then of course we have the dumb god powers and Actual Magic. And then also the Silver Eyes.

BRC

2016-10-06, 03:28 PM

I'd say a mix of both. I feel like you can't just slot Dust into the setting and expect people to accept it without explaining it a little. It's magic crystal that can be ground up into powder and power magical abilities. Okay. So why does have dust inside your gun make your Semblance/Aura power different? Also Semblances/Aura Powers are another super mega special thing, and Weiss's is EXACT special because it's apparently a genetic thing whereas others are seemingly not.

And then of course we have the dumb god powers and Actual Magic. And then also the Silver Eyes.
I mean, they do the "World of Remnant" things to explain stuff.

So, there's Dust, which powers things, explodes when shot, and can be used to apply elemental modifiers to Semblence/Aura Powers ( Think Weiss works by just shoving Aura into dust to get various elemental effects?). It can also be woven into clothes or items to do stuff.

Then there's Aura, which is kind of a generic Stronger/Tougher thing that everybody has. It's a force field, it makes you hit harder, presumably also lets them do the crazy acrobatic stuff, when you run out of it you get tired and become vulnerable to injury.

Then there's Semblance, which is everybody's individual Super Special X-Man Power, which I think is also run off Aura? And the Schnee's have a genetic, Glyph/summoning based Semblance, while everybody else just seems to get something at random from a list (Speed, Shadow Clones, Telekinesis, Forced Hallucinations, Gain power from being hit, magnetism, ect)

THEN, above that, there's Wizard Magic, Maiden Power (Which is I think a variant of Wizard Magic?) and Silver Eyes Power.

LaZodiac

2016-10-06, 03:58 PM

I mean, they do the "World of Remnant" things to explain stuff.

So, there's Dust, which powers things, explodes when shot, and can be used to apply elemental modifiers to Semblence/Aura Powers ( Think Weiss works by just shoving Aura into dust to get various elemental effects?). It can also be woven into clothes or items to do stuff.

Then there's Aura, which is kind of a generic Stronger/Tougher thing that everybody has. It's a force field, it makes you hit harder, presumably also lets them do the crazy acrobatic stuff, when you run out of it you get tired and become vulnerable to injury.

Then there's Semblance, which is everybody's individual Super Special X-Man Power, which I think is also run off Aura? And the Schnee's have a genetic, Glyph/summoning based Semblance, while everybody else just seems to get something at random from a list (Speed, Shadow Clones, Telekinesis, Forced Hallucinations, Gain power from being hit, magnetism, ect)

THEN, above that, there's Wizard Magic, Maiden Power (Which is I think a variant of Wizard Magic?) and Silver Eyes Power.

I still don't feel like the World of Remnant shorts help much, but okay. Let's go over some the inaccuracies in what you've said (not your fault, it's the shows fault).

Everybody has Aura, except Jaune who had to have his turned on for some reason. Even though it shields you from all harm you can still be knocked out a gun to the face.

It's never really said what the Semblances run off of, but they can interact with the dust you have loaded into your weapon, even if it's just some kinda clip on keychain attached to your gun like Blake's, for unexplained reasons. Also the Schnee family having a special genetic one while everyone else having random ones seems really weird and makes it seem like they're actually two things.

The Maiden Powers are LIKE semblances but NOT. We're told the maiden power is attached to the semblance of the girl, and was put there by the Magic powers of the wizard. It's not explained what it does or why it's even remotely special beyond "it's just god powers" and yet is not shown to be even remotely useful. The Silver Eye stuff is even more vague power from nothing.

EDIT: It occurs to me I forgot to respond to the "...LaZodiac, maybe this is just a small sample size, but most things I see you comment on you do not seem to enjoy. Do you need an intervention? XD " part of Callos's comment. Oops!

Don't worry I do participate in things I like. One Piece, Agents of Shield, The Flash (once I actually watch the new episode...), and the Jojo thread. I also HAVE game threads where I gush about lovely games I'm playing for the internet (check em oooout).

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-07, 02:42 AM

I personally disagree. There were some good moments, yes, last season, but the whole of it was just kind of bleh. Magical powers introduced out of nowhere said to be on the level of a god. Beaten by Cinder and the two chuckle****s. Almost beaten by Pyrrha. No real explanation on what it is and why it's special beyond "it's a special thing". Having to fight with all the OTHER special things.

Respect the opinion, but I disagree. Being beaten by Cinder and company isn't exactly an indication of being weak nor was Cinder almost beaten by Pyrrha. And there is an explanation for it and a reason why its special...its actual magic, not a result of energy propellent, someone's sembalance, or aura which are all things studied while being a known factor which is also why its special. Its magic, there's no explanation for how it works, because there isn't one...just vaguely understood rules about how its passed on.

But y'know, I figure you've heard plenty of similar arguments and are comfortable with your opinion. ^_^ So I'm not gonna waste my time trying to sway you otherwise, just playfully poke fun at you on occasion.

EDIT: It occurs to me I forgot to respond to the "...LaZodiac, maybe this is just a small sample size, but most things I see you comment on you do not seem to enjoy. Do you need an intervention? XD " part of Callos's comment. Oops!

Don't worry I do participate in things I like. One Piece, Agents of Shield, The Flash (once I actually watch the new episode...), and the Jojo thread. I also HAVE game threads where I gush about lovely games I'm playing for the internet (check em oooout).

Heh, no worries about a latish reply, I don't mind.

Ahh, so that's why I don't see you happy about things other than SU, they are threads I don't visit. XD Explains a lot!

...still, I got those folding chairs and I'mma keep my eye on you. I'm like an intervention ninja, regular and Naruto style. I sneak up all subtle and shady like than smack ya with the nuclear equivilent intervention meeting.

LaZodiac

2016-10-07, 02:59 AM

Respect the opinion, but I disagree. Being beaten by Cinder and company isn't exactly an indication of being weak nor was Cinder almost beaten by Pyrrha. And there is an explanation for it and a reason why its special...its actual magic, not a result of energy propellent, someone's sembalance, or aura which are all things studied while being a known factor which is also why its special. Its magic, there's no explanation for how it works, because there isn't one...just vaguely understood rules about how its passed on.

But y'know, I figure you've heard plenty of similar arguments and are comfortable with your opinion. ^_^ So I'm not gonna waste my time trying to sway you otherwise, just playfully poke fun at you on occasion.

Heh, no worries about a latish reply, I don't mind.

Ahh, so that's why I don't see you happy about things other than SU, they are threads I don't visit. XD Explains a lot!

...still, I got those folding chairs and I'mma keep my eye on you. I'm like an intervention ninja, regular and Naruto style. I sneak up all subtle and shady like than smack ya with the nuclear equivilent intervention meeting.

While I find the idea of "you don't need to explain magic" alright, I feel like the way this series presents itself, and presents this power, should give us at least something to latch onto as "real". We're given no explanation what so ever about why the Maiden powers are so special that they can't even be allowed to live regular lives. Wouldn't anyone just, reasonably, assume they're Semblances? What makes THOSE powers more special than anything else? I don't mind fun rib poking though, it's part of why I do enjoy this thread.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Always good to know people are there to make sure I don't become insane. Speaking of which I need to think of an amount of money that would make me want to read through Needless again for the entertainment of the internet...

Rawhide

2016-10-07, 03:32 AM

Speaking of which I need to think of an amount of money that would make me want to read through Needless again for the entertainment of the internet...

One million dollars.

http://jeffrose.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/dr.-evil-million-dollar-term-policy-300x241.jpg

DoctorFaust

2016-10-07, 04:15 AM

...still, I got those folding chairs and I'mma keep my eye on you. I'm like an intervention ninja, regular and Naruto style. I sneak up all subtle and shady like than smack ya with the nuclear equivilent intervention meeting.

*insert obvious WWE joke here*

Metahuman1

2016-10-07, 04:45 AM

Do recall that in one of the world of remnant sections they explain about auras/semblences being related, and that with the right semblance you can develop it to what, by setting standards, makes you truly super human/inhuman in terms of how powerful you are.

Who's to say Phyrra, uber prodigy that she was, wasn't in that weight class? Sorta like how Magneto in X-men is at a power level were he can throw down with cosmic forces.

LaZodiac

2016-10-07, 10:12 AM

One million dollars.

http://jeffrose.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/dr.-evil-million-dollar-term-policy-300x241.jpg

I'm looking for a reasonable number :smallamused:

Do recall that in one of the world of remnant sections they explain about auras/semblences being related, and that with the right semblance you can develop it to what, by setting standards, makes you truly super human/inhuman in terms of how powerful you are.

Who's to say Phyrra, uber prodigy that she was, wasn't in that weight class? Sorta like how Magneto in X-men is at a power level were he can throw down with cosmic forces.

Yeah, but HOW are they related. We know Semblances are basically aura powers unique to individuals (except when they're not) that let them do things, but that's basically it. And again, if you can make your aura power rival that of full on god powers...why are the god powers considered special?

Morty

2016-10-07, 01:01 PM

I'm with LaZodiac on this one. RWBY is very bad about its exposition. It either gives us terms and concepts like we're supposed to be perfectly familiar with them (Dust or Semblance), or goes on long-winded exposition-fests (Pyrrha to Jaune).

Ronnoc

2016-10-07, 02:10 PM

While I find the idea of "you don't need to explain magic" alright, I feel like the way this series presents itself, and presents this power, should give us at least something to latch onto as "real". We're given no explanation what so ever about why the Maiden powers are so special that they can't even be allowed to live regular lives. Wouldn't anyone just, reasonably, assume they're Semblances? What makes THOSE powers more special than anything else? I don't mind fun rib poking though, it's part of why I do enjoy this thread.

Did you read the harry potter books? The maiden powers behave in many ways like the elder wand. They're a significant power boost, still vulnerable to ambush or defeat by an extraordinary foe but still valuable. More importantly unlike skill in dust or a semblance they can be stolen making them a huge temptation for anyone who craves power and knows they exist.

Additionally,and this part is admittedly speculation; I suspect they function a bit like the one ring. The maiden powers are stronger for those who already hold power. if that were the case the ideal bearer in a tune of peace would be relatively weak so the power could be mistaken for a mere semblance. Once the cats out of the bag though you would want your strongest candidate a.k.a pyrrha.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-07, 03:16 PM

Did you read the harry potter books? The maiden powers behave in many ways like the elder wand. They're a significant power boost, still vulnerable to ambush or defeat by an extraordinary foe but still valuable. More importantly unlike skill in dust or a semblance they can be stolen making them a huge temptation for anyone who craves power and knows they exist.

Additionally,and this part is admittedly speculation; I suspect they function a bit like the one ring. The maiden powers are stronger for those who already hold power. if that were the case the ideal bearer in a tune of peace would be relatively weak so the power could be mistaken for a mere semblance. Once the cats out of the bag though you would want your strongest candidate a.k.a pyrrha.

You're assuming that Harry Potter is good writing. :smalltongue:

Anyways, I do agree with LaZodiac on that matter. If you needed to make the Maiden's powers to be important, actually have them be impressive. Or leave them up to our imagination entirely instead of giving us that, rather mediocre, fight scene. And then when the BBEG gets those powers, don't have her immediately get pushed to the limit against an ordinary person. A prodigy sure, but still ordinary. Alternatively, have Pyrrha already have half those powers like they wanted, and then it's a duel between the two for the ownership of the mantle of the Maiden.

Instead we get the entirely unexplained and unexpected Deus Ex Machina of the 'grey eyes'. We still don't have a clue what happened with that.

Though my complaints about writing come more about the character deaths and other mismanagement.

Penny's death aborted what was honestly the most interesting (side) storyline we had. And it was handled poorly and in a nonsensical way. (I can really go on a huge rant, or rather, I'll go retrieve the huge rant I already wrote)

Torchwick's death may have been necessary, but it certainly wasn't necessary to rob it of all impact by making it a joke. And he was the only villain who had much of a personality (Cinder had an entire flashback episode and I still couldn't give a rat's *** about her).

And a bunch of other little things. I can go on, but this post is long enough already.

LaZodiac

2016-10-07, 03:31 PM

Lethologica

2016-10-07, 03:49 PM

Oh, magic system thoughts! I'm here for this.

Aura is soul power, fine. Dust is special material that produces elemental energy (and soul power can interact with it), fine. Semblance is an individual and unique manifestation of soul power, fine. There's bits of weirdness and clumsiness like Jaune's exposition scene and RWBY not telling each other their Semblances ahead of time, but in general it's a perfectly normal magic system.

Then there's special powers that get passed around in mysterious ways and relate to old myths, and whose existence isn't known to most of the world. This is also fine, in itself. But RWBY fumbles the execution. It takes the mythical and makes it awkwardly mechanical with things like the Maiden inheritance scheme and the ability theft device tailored specifically to Maiden powers. It gives the Maidens power, but not a role or responsibility corresponding to their mythical status as keepers of the seasons, some significance that justifies all the hullabaloo Ozpin&co. make about them. Meanwhile, the silver-eyed warrior story is utterly banal--"A long time ago there were these strong people Grimm were afraid of and you're strong like them."

On a broader level, the mythical axis is seemingly orthogonal to the basic humanity-Grimm conflict, which undercuts the direction of the story--like, what is it about Team Bad Guys going after the Maiden powers that expresses their Team Bad Guy-ness? And RWBY doesn't yet have a coherent mythical arc--the contrast I'm thinking of is ASOIAF, which executes a theme of 'the return of the supernatural' through various disparate elements without feeling scattershot (at least, that part of ASOIAF doesn't feel scattershot--it's the characters and politics that drag, not the magic). It should be straightforward to pull off a setting arc where our understanding of the magic system is progressively disrupted by mysterious mythical powers that don't follow the rules, but RWBY hasn't done that. Instead they treated 'seasonal Maidens' as its own unique thing, such that when the silver eyes power also became a thing it undermined the mystique of the Maiden powers, instead of complementing them as part of a more general theme.

That's just how I see it, of course, and it's early going for that part of the story, and there's plenty of potential to play with (the conflict between Ironwood and Qrow could really have played on these ideas, for example, with Ironwood's "we can do science to it" attitude rubbing up against Qrow's "I've seen crazy things out there" attitude).

Did you read the harry potter books? The maiden powers behave in many ways like the elder wand. They're a significant power boost, still vulnerable to ambush or defeat by an extraordinary foe but still valuable. More importantly unlike skill in dust or a semblance they can be stolen making them a huge temptation for anyone who craves power and knows they exist.

Additionally,and this part is admittedly speculation; I suspect they function a bit like the one ring. The maiden powers are stronger for those who already hold power. if that were the case the ideal bearer in a tune of peace would be relatively weak so the power could be mistaken for a mere semblance. Once the cats out of the bag though you would want your strongest candidate a.k.a pyrrha.
The show is fairly clear that maiden powers are a distinct power of their own, not a power boost to an existing ability.

Also, for the sake of clarity, there appear to be two methods of transfer; inheritance is sort of like the Elder Wand, but Salem's ability theft spider is not.

Hiro Protagonest

2016-10-07, 04:04 PM

nor was Cinder almost beaten by Pyrrha.

Yes, she was. I once disputed this point with Zodi, but then I went and actually watched it again. It was pretty bad.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-07, 05:08 PM

I have! The Elder Wand is explained as being made from the literal Grim Reaper. Magic wands are explained to be made from magical creature parts and that influences their power. The Grim Reaper is FUNDEMENTALLY A MAGICAL GOD. They establish quite reasonably that HEY, this wand made from the bones of DEATH ITSELF is gonna be PRETTY BADASS compared to a regular ole hobbit hair wand or whatever. I'd argue that's the exact opposite of the Maiden powers since we have no reason to believe this guy is anything more than some random ass hedge wizard. I only assume he has to be someone really powerful because he's Obviously Ozpin, so he must be important.

Actually, was the Elder Wand ever actually explicitly stated to be made from the Grim Reaper? I know that there's the whole Beedle the Bard thing, but I can't remember if it was extablished to be anything but a fairy tale.

LaZodiac

2016-10-07, 05:11 PM

Actually, was the Elder Wand ever actually explicitly stated to be made from the Grim Reaper? I know that there's the whole Beedle the Bard thing, but I can't remember if it was extablished to be anything but a fairy tale.

Well I mean the cloak and whatever the hell it is ALSO exist and are real. And this is a universe with dementers and unicorns and time travel pocketwatches (I think that was the other hallows object actually?) so a Death finger wand isn't that unbelievable.

Morty

2016-10-07, 05:11 PM

Several people, including Dumbledore, doubted the tale, thinking that it's simply a legend that had arisen around three powerful, magical objects. What their origin really was is never made clear.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-07, 05:35 PM

Well I mean the cloak and whatever the hell it is ALSO exist and are real. And this is a universe with dementers and unicorns and time travel pocketwatches (I think that was the other hallows object actually?) so a Death finger wand isn't that unbelievable.

I will say that I mostly agree with you on the power thing for RWBY, but you do realize that you're basing this particular argument pretty much entirely on speculation, right? The presence of some magical things doesn't necessitate the existence of others. And even if only the things confirmed in canon were true, the Elder Wand is basically the equivalent of Weiss' semblance (i.e. a particularly powerful example of something within an existing system), not an entirely different system of power. EDIT: I looked at the Harry Potter wiki some more, and apparently J.K. Rowling has said that the core of the Elder Wand is a thestral hair (http://web.archive.org/web/20100129093600/http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=25). I did check the website, and it does appear to be her actual official site. Either that or someone has done an amazing job of faking being J.K. Rowling.

Also, minor detail, but the time travel pocket watch wasn't one of the Hallows. Those are Time-Turners, and the Ministry actually had a stock of them before they were destroyed in book 5. The Hallows are the Resurrection Stone, the Elder Wand, and the Cloak of Invisibility.

LaZodiac

2016-10-07, 11:23 PM

I will say that I mostly agree with you on the power thing for RWBY, but you do realize that you're basing this particular argument pretty much entirely on speculation, right? The presence of some magical things doesn't necessitate the existence of others. And even if only the things confirmed in canon were true, the Elder Wand is basically the equivalent of Weiss' semblance (i.e. a particularly powerful example of something within an existing system), not an entirely different system of power. EDIT: I looked at the Harry Potter wiki some more, and apparently J.K. Rowling has said that the core of the Elder Wand is a thestral hair (http://web.archive.org/web/20100129093600/http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=25). I did check the website, and it does appear to be her actual official site. Either that or someone has done an amazing job of faking being J.K. Rowling.

Also, minor detail, but the time travel pocket watch wasn't one of the Hallows. Those are Time-Turners, and the Ministry actually had a stock of them before they were destroyed in book 5. The Hallows are the Resurrection Stone, the Elder Wand, and the Cloak of Invisibility.

The twist to all this is that I don't really like Harry Potter that much? So I legitimately am just going off what I've heard and seen I've never read the final book.

I feel like, even if it's all super stitution and nonsense in series, at least they tried to give some sort of explanation? I don't know, I'm tired from work.

Dragonexx

2016-10-07, 11:44 PM

There are several writing problems in season 3, not the least of which is that the first third or so is entirely skipable without missing anything important. Maiden powers are interesting, but fall in to the problem of the system of magic in RWBY not being that well established enough for breaking the rules to have that much effect.

I'm for magic having rules (the most absolute being that it cannot easily resolve the plot) and am okay with the rules being broken, but it always has the biggest effect when there is a status quo that can be broken. And we haven't really focused on aura, dust, or semblances enough to care that there's a power that's different from them.

Also, it's stated that maiden powers must be kept secret because it would clash with "centuries of religion" despite that religion never being established.

Even worse is the "Silver Eyes" power that has the worst foreshadowing ever and comes off as a worse deus ex machina than energybending.

Finally there's Cinder, who's just so uninteresting as a villain. We have virtually no idea what she want's the maiden powers for, and she comes off as a generic, "just as planned" villain who just has stuff work for her, and gives a smirk afterwords. Basically she's just given too much focus for this to work.

Also, the comparison to the deathly hallows is more that it's ambigious as to the origin of these things. In harry potter it's deliberately left ambigious as to whether the deathly hallows are actually created by the Grim Reaper in the fairy tail, or just really powerful wizards. Similar to how with the Seasonal Maidens it's left ambigious as to whether the wizard is real or not.

Adendum: If Penny is not repaired, then here death is a waste of a good character and potential story.

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 12:04 AM

Finally there's Cinder, who's just so uninteresting as a villain. We have virtually no idea what she want's the maiden powers for, and she comes off as a generic, "just as planned" villain who just has stuff work for her, and gives a smirk afterwords. Basically she's just given too much focus for this to work.

Adendum: If Penny is not repaired, then here death is a waste of a good character and potential story.

It cannot be stated enough that the only time I found Cinder interesting was when her voice actually cracked when Ruby went all Awakened One on her and the dragon's ass. She actually showed the slightest hint of character there, and that was "surprise at getting owned". She's honestly the worst villain I've seen in almost any series I can think of.

It's also killing the second of two ships that are actually tolerable. Way to kneecap your story guys. Just because Whedon kills off characters people like doesn't mean you should.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-08, 12:42 AM

It cannot be stated enough that the only time I found Cinder interesting was when her voice actually cracked when Ruby went all Awakened One on her and the dragon's ass. She actually showed the slightest hint of character there, and that was "surprise at getting owned". She's honestly the worst villain I've seen in almost any series I can think of.

It's also killing the second of two ships that are actually tolerable. Way to kneecap your story guys. Just because Whedon kills off characters people like doesn't mean you should.

Yeah, overall I think that RWBY has potential, but could've benefited with a better execution of what its trying to do.

like if the limits of various power sources were better explained, if we had more time to get to know the characters, if we got a better idea of what the combat paradigm is, and just better plotting, could've been done better.

like if I were doing it I'd say:

Aura: general physical protection/super strength-speed-reflexes thing. is an extension of your soul through training, can't do anything else.

Semblance: special part of Aura because everyone's soul and fighting style is different and this power results from that, doesn't do anything else.

Dust: state what elements these things do, what their effects are, and how they can be used to incorporate into a fighting style through tech. can't do anything else.

Maiden Powers: soul-like things that choose their inheritors and impart powerful magic over the weather that people have used in politics and war throughout history to turn the tide.

Hunters: basically, small elite teams capable of taking out large numbers of Grimm. Armies, while completely capable of doing the same thing, cause too much fear and terror while doing so, so are only brought in as a last resort. Hunters are basically the FIRST line of defense sent to make sure they don't need to use a cudgel that while solving the problem, would only cause other problems as a result of using armies. emphasize to Hunters that if they don't do their jobs right, the military has to go in instead, which will be far messier, far more likely to spawn more Grimm as a result.

emphasize how the nations try to avoid war as much as possible and how Hunters, due to them being the dagger rather the hammer have to go on political missions to prevent wars from breaking out, and sometimes have to be stealthy commandoes who protect people from Grimm by making sure peace still reigns and positive emotions still happen. while other times have be center for propaganda pieces to give people hope. like sometimes, you just have to go on a mission to sneak up on a bunch of terrorists and kill them in their hideout before they launch an attack that would attract a lot of Grimm to the city, and that this isn't glamorous at all but its apart of the job because otherwise your not protecting people from the Grimm.

and sometimes when Grimm DO attack, you can heroically and flashily kill them all you want and the media will be allowed to center around you, take film of you kicking their ass, and afterwards you have to say encouraging words to the masses and smile so that they won't start worrying about the Grimm that attack thus attracting more, just emphasize how much the nations have to do keep the citizens happy. though I'd imagine some Hunters would gravitate more towards the celebrity role and others would gravitate more towards the secret agent role. like Yang? totes celebrity Huntress, while Blake would become a secret agent Huntress.

while the Silver Eyes, just give it some of ancient legend passed down and spoken only as a myth, just ahead of time at least. like make it something that doesn't just come out of nowhere, at least.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-08, 12:42 AM

Yes, she was. I once disputed this point with Zodi, but then I went and actually watched it again. It was pretty bad.

...I have watched that fight many times, honestly more than I care to count, Pyrrha does not almost win. She comes nowhere close to winning the fight, she barely lands two blows during the first half of the fight (three if you count the shield charge out of the elevator that Cinder blocks)while the rest were deflected and three times during the second part once the Grimm Wyrm takes off the top of the tower all of which were surprise attacks (Cinder got incorrect info from Mecury that Pyrrha had to touch a metal object to redirect it, in other words Cinder didn't know Pyrrha could move the gears with her semblance). The entire rest of the fight, Pyrrha is doing everything she can possibly do to avoid being roasted alive, which also tells us that Cinder wasn't using her full capabilities since we know she can fire ice shards (like against Ozpin). Twice could you get the illusion that Pyrrha is winning.

When she has her pilum to Cinder's throat and is trying to end the fight. Except she is making absolutely no progress in getting that blade any closer to Cinder's throat while Cinder is making plenty of progress in melting through the blade and, even then, it would have no wear near the force needed to get through Cinder's Aura or Maiden powers.

The second is with the big gear attack. And yeah, Cinder looks surprised to see it, wanna know what she doesn't look? Scared. Or even worried about it and for good reason because she blows it away once she bothers to exert even close to the same amount of power she used against Ozpin. A last ditch and cleverly set up area-of-effect attack that Pyrrha used.

I love Pyrrha and I love that fight but Pyrrha did not 'almost' win it. The closest to an even one-on-one match anyone with a maiden's power has had was against Ozpin who was most likely captured. Even three on one, Emerald was almost killed and Mercury got his butt handed to him and that was a combination of an infallible (ish) illusion semblance, a well timed/planned ambush, and the three of them being very skilled and coordinated when it comes to fighting together. With all that, Amber still almost killed Emerald, knocked Mercury out of the fight, and was only taken down by a cheap shot.

The Maidens haven't really been justified for causing a mass panic and hysteria if their existence becomes known (aside from their mere existence in general), but claiming their abilities aren't powerful is flat out wrong given the context we have in the show so far.

And just to be certain that I wasn't somehow mis-remembering, I watched the fight again while typing this post.

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 12:52 AM

...I have watched that fight many times, honestly more than I care to count, Pyrrha does not almost win.

If we're being brutally honest I feel the difference in our read on the fight is entirely just because "this is how we see it". Because the show cannot properly show us how the fights are going. Like...what you see as Pyrrha having trouble slitting Cinder's throat, I see as Cinder desprately trying to PREVENT Pyrrha from slicing her idiot voice box out. Because the show has next to no actual details in the fights, and are more focused on bashing the models together in some mockery of good fight shooting, we have to way to tell HOW the fight is going.

I still maintain that if Pyrrha didn't THROW HER ****ING SHIELD while fighting someone that USES PROJECTILES she would of won. Ruby showing up would of given her the advantage she needed to END this. Cinder is rocking THE POWER OF A GOD, according to Ozpin, and she's ON PAR with Pyrrha. With Ruby backing her up, Cinder dies.

Rawhide

2016-10-08, 01:14 AM

I think it's time to resurrect the in depth story analysis/rewrite thread. Permission granted to cast thread necromancy and move the current discussion there.

There are, however, a couple of things I'd like to address here.

'grey eyes'. We still don't have a clue what happened with that.

The existence of powers behind silver eyes was revealed in the final episode of last season, we haven't even started the first episode of this season.

I still maintain that if Pyrrha didn't THROW HER ****ING SHIELD while fighting someone that USES PROJECTILES she would of won. Ruby showing up would of given her the advantage she needed to END this. Cinder is rocking THE POWER OF A GOD, according to Ozpin, and she's ON PAR with Pyrrha. With Ruby backing her up, Cinder dies.

Pyrrha's shield is more than just a stationary blocking device, she uses it as a manipulatable projectile weapon (think Xena's chakram, but with more control and more uses). Plus, she perfectly blocked the projectile with her thrown shield. Pyrrha didn't lose because she was unable to block a projectile with her shield, she lost because the blocked projectile shattered, then went around her shield on all sides and reformed on the other. Thrown or not, that makes a shield useless.

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 01:35 AM

Pyrrha's shield is more than just a stationary blocking device, she uses it as a manipulatable projectile weapon (think Xena's chakram, but with more control and more uses). Plus, she perfectly blocked the projectile with her thrown shield. Pyrrha didn't lose because she was unable to block a projectile with her shield, she lost because the blocked projectile shattered, then went around her shield on all sides and reformed on the other. Thrown or not, that makes a shield useless.

I maintain that if she had kept her shield on her person, where it can shield her, the arrow wouldn't of been able to reform well enough to jab her in her ankle. Also she hit the arrow with her edge, like hell that's a perfect block.

Rawhide

2016-10-08, 01:47 AM

I maintain that if she had kept her shield on her person, where it can shield her, the arrow wouldn't of been able to reform well enough to jab her in her ankle.

Debatable.

Also she hit the arrow with her edge, like hell that's a perfect block.

Any block which causes (or would have caused, in this particular case) an attack to be completely deflected is a perfect block.

cha0s4a11

2016-10-08, 02:16 AM

I maintain that if she had kept her shield on her person, where it can shield her, the arrow wouldn't of been able to reform well enough to jab her in her ankle. Also she hit the arrow with her edge, like hell that's a perfect block.

Once her Aura defense broke, Pyrrha was pretty much at Cinder's mercy. Even assuming she blocked the arrow to the ankle, there was little stopping Cinder from just torching her right then and there. Trying to block fire with a metal (i.e. heat conducting) shield that is less than person-sized is far more viable when one has aura protection against the fire/heat that gets around the shield and the heat that gets conducted through the shield.

Even assuming that Pyrrha managed to delay dying long enough for Ruby to get up there, she would effectively be useless in any further fight (i.e. Cinder vs Ruby/Pyrrha may as well be Cinder vs Ruby) because no Aura means no magnetic powers Semblance (Semblance is a manifestation of Aura, No Aura = No Semblance) and her current available weaponry literally just consists of a metal shield.

I should take this opportunity to point out that Amber had a significantly better chance at recovery/fighting after Aura break than Pyrrha did, precisely because Maiden powers are special and not a manifestation of Aura. If not for Cinder's well timed arrow to the back, it's quite possible that Amber could have Aura broke/killed Emerald.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-08, 02:25 AM

If we're being brutally honest I feel the difference in our read on the fight is entirely just because "this is how we see it". Because the show cannot properly show us how the fights are going. Like...what you see as Pyrrha having trouble slitting Cinder's throat, I see as Cinder desprately trying to PREVENT Pyrrha from slicing her idiot voice box out. Because the show has next to no actual details in the fights, and are more focused on bashing the models together in some mockery of good fight shooting, we have to way to tell HOW the fight is going.

Really? I've never really had a problem reading what was happening in a fight on RWBY. More importantly (well...more like more relevant anyway), in that moment there are details. Pyrrha is straining trying to pull the blade closer and we know she is trying because the blade is trembling, but the blade isn't making any actual progress and it is quite a ways from its mark. Meanwhile, before the Wyrm even decides to help, Cinder is melting through the pilun and smirking back at Pyrrha. She already knows she is in no danger, the Wyrm just gives her a bigger opening.

I still maintain that if Pyrrha didn't THROW HER ****ING SHIELD while fighting someone that USES PROJECTILES she would of won. Ruby showing up would of given her the advantage she needed to END this. Cinder is rocking THE POWER OF A GOD, according to Ozpin, and she's ON PAR with Pyrrha. With Ruby backing her up, Cinder dies.

Pyrrha had already lost that fight. No aura means no Polarity. No Polarity means all her shield is...is...well...a shield and she had no idea that Ruby was on her way. So between choosing between dragging the fight out a little longer until she dies or trying another last ditch effort in the vain attempt of taking out Cinder, she choose to make the attack because she had nothing else left.

Ruby showing up in time to try and save Pyrrha would have just gotten them both killed. It was Pyrrha dying with Ruby being completely unable to do anything about it that awoke the Silver Eyes. And without that trigger and at that point in the fight? Pyrrha was an active liability because she could neither continue fighting or defend herself. IF Ruby had actually been able to put up a fight against Cinder by herself (really, really doubt it) all it would have taken would be a single attack tossed Pyrrha's way for Ruby to deplete her aura or, worse, get injured trying to protect her. Because while Cinder's character has flaws to it, lack of ruthlessness is not one of them. She has shown absolutely no hesitation in using underhanded attacks or tactics to win a fight quickly.

Anywho, really wanna see Volume 4 now, so excited.

Edit: ...dang it, the guy above me beat me to it. Ah well!

Forum Explorer

2016-10-08, 02:35 AM

The existence of grey eyes was revealed in the final episode of last season, we haven't even started the first episode of this season

Right, and that's a bad time to reveal them. It makes the Deus Ex Machina more obvious and jarring. A reveal like that needs to have been set up beforehand, which this one wasn't.

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 03:04 AM

I should take this opportunity to point out that Amber had a significantly better chance at recovery/fighting after Aura break than Pyrrha did, precisely because Maiden powers are special and not a manifestation of Aura. If not for Cinder's well timed arrow to the back, it's quite possible that Amber could have Aura broke/killed Emerald.

And yet the Maiden Power is attached to the aura and by transfering the aura over to Pyrrha she would of received the power. Basically, you can't say what you're saying with confidence here.

As for the other stuff you said, while that's true that her aura WAS broken and Cinder COULD incinerate her, she DIDN'T. Cinder was clearly not at full power any more, and with Ruby there it would of gone poorly for her.

Really? I've never really had a problem reading what was happening in a fight on RWBY. More importantly (well...more like more relevant anyway), in that moment there are details. Pyrrha is straining trying to pull the blade closer and we know she is trying because the blade is trembling, but the blade isn't making any actual progress and it is quite a ways from its mark. Meanwhile, before the Wyrm even decides to help, Cinder is melting through the pilun and smirking back at Pyrrha. She already knows she is in no danger, the Wyrm just gives her a bigger opening.

Pyrrha had already lost that fight. No aura means no Polarity. No Polarity means all her shield is...is...well...a shield and she had no idea that Ruby was on her way. So between choosing between dragging the fight out a little longer until she dies or trying another last ditch effort in the vain attempt of taking out Cinder, she choose to make the attack because she had nothing else left.

Ruby showing up in time to try and save Pyrrha would have just gotten them both killed. It was Pyrrha dying with Ruby being completely unable to do anything about it that awoke the Silver Eyes. And without that trigger and at that point in the fight? Pyrrha was an active liability because she could neither continue fighting or defend herself. IF Ruby had actually been able to put up a fight against Cinder by herself (really, really doubt it) all it would have taken would be a single attack tossed Pyrrha's way for Ruby to deplete her aura or, worse, get injured trying to protect her. Because while Cinder's character has flaws to it, lack of ruthlessness is not one of them. She has shown absolutely no hesitation in using underhanded attacks or tactics to win a fight quickly.

Anywho, really wanna see Volume 4 now, so excited.

Edit: ...dang it, the guy above me beat me to it. Ah well!

Eh, I read the fight differently. Also, if she knew she didn't have access to her magnetic powers yet, then she should of REALLY kept hold of her shield. A last desperation style attack would be to try and make Cinder fall off the building.

I'm sort of excited for Volume 4 because I'm curious where they'll go, and if they WILL manage to improve things.

Rawhide

2016-10-08, 03:04 AM

A reveal like that needs to have been set up beforehand, which this one wasn't.

*cough*cough* (https://youtu.be/-sGiE10zNQM?t=6m54s)

Forum Explorer

2016-10-08, 04:32 AM

*cough*cough* (https://youtu.be/-sGiE10zNQM?t=6m54s)

I don't think a single line, in the first episode, with zero context on why silver eyes are important, when Oz is acting eccentric, counts as foreshadowing.

Lethologica

2016-10-08, 04:41 AM

I don't think a single line, in the first episode, with zero context on why silver eyes are important, when Oz is acting eccentric, counts as foreshadowing.
It was a clear foreshadowing that silver eyes would be a thing. The problem is more precisely that the silver eyes are currently a free-floating plot point with no thematic or emotional significance, which makes it seem cheap. This is fixable, but right now it's awkward, and while I can't see the future of the story, it probably didn't have to be that way--this is where setup could have been useful, as you said earlier.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-08, 05:44 AM

It was a clear foreshadowing that silver eyes would be a thing. The problem is more precisely that the silver eyes are currently a free-floating plot point with no thematic or emotional significance, which makes it seem cheap. This is fixable, but right now it's awkward, and while I can't see the future of the story, it probably didn't have to be that way--this is where setup could have been useful, as you said earlier.

I disagree that it's clear foreshadowing (or good foreshadowing) in any way. A single line, while technically foreshadowing, isn't likely to mean anything beyond saying Ruby has weird eye colors. And considering it doesn't get mentioned or become relevant until 3 seasons later, I don't think I can be blamed in completely forgetting that they ever mentioned it.

Morty

2016-10-08, 06:06 AM

Finally there's Cinder, who's just so uninteresting as a villain. We have virtually no idea what she want's the maiden powers for, and she comes off as a generic, "just as planned" villain who just has stuff work for her, and gives a smirk afterwords. Basically she's just given too much focus for this to work.

Too much and too little focus at the same time. Many characters in RWBY are walking archetypes without much of a third dimension, but Cinder may be the worst offender. The impression I get is that her creation process started with "she's a villain who smirks a lot and talks about how everything is going as planned"... and stopped there. It didn't occur to anyone that in order for everything to go as planned, she needs to have plans and actually do something about them. Otherwise, she just acts smug when things just so happen to go her way, like you said.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-08, 06:35 AM

Too much and too little focus at the same time. Many characters in RWBY are walking archetypes without much of a third dimension, but Cinder may be the worst offender. The impression I get is that her creation process started with "she's a villain who smirks a lot and talks about how everything is going as planned"... and stopped there. It didn't occur to anyone that in order for everything to go as planned, she needs to have plans and actually do something about them. Otherwise, she just acts smug when things just so happen to go her way, like you said.

Clearly, this is actually evidence that RWBY takes place in the WH40k universe and that Cinder is a Tzeenchian psyker. It all makes sense!

Rawhide

2016-10-08, 07:49 AM

I don't think a single line, in the first episode, with zero context on why silver eyes are important, when Oz is acting eccentric, counts as foreshadowing.

Point is that it was set up beforehand. Additionally, we've only just finished the first act, until now we've only been in the set up phase.

Regardless, this isn't the place to discuss whether it was done well or not, that should be in the in depth story analysis/rewrite thread, which I have already given approval to be resurrected.

Wait, I didn't do it in red. I hereby approve the in depth story analysis/rewrite thread to be resurrected. Now it's official.

cha0s4a11

2016-10-08, 09:59 AM

I should take this opportunity to point out that Amber had a significantly better chance at recovery/fighting after Aura break than Pyrrha did, precisely because Maiden powers are special and not a manifestation of Aura. If not for Cinder's well timed arrow to the back, it's quite possible that Amber could have Aura broke/killed Emerald.

And yet the Maiden Power is attached to the aura and by transfering the aura over to Pyrrha she would of received the power. Basically, you can't say what you're saying with confidence here.

I have a reasonable basis for my statements about Aura and maiden powers - namely that while there have been several cases of Aura breaks in the series, literally the only instance of someone using powers after their Aura defense has broken is when Amber fought Cinder, Emerald and Mercury. Granted it's not ironclad, but the alternatives require an explanation as to why Pyrrha stopped using her magnetism after her Aura break despite there still being plenty of metal that is useful on the top of the tower.

I think part of the issue that the writing could do a bit better with is the conflation of Aura (Someone's soul that makes up their being) vs Aura (How much power said soul has to deflect harm). The maiden powers get attached to the former, and, from what I can tell, run on a power source that's independent of the latter.

As for the other stuff you said, while that's true that her aura WAS broken and Cinder COULD incinerate her, she DIDN'T. Cinder was clearly not at full power any more, and with Ruby there it would of gone poorly for her.

Without going Silver Eyes Nova, or some other circumstantial bonus of equal or greater questionability, Ruby would have been no match for Cinder. In a straight-up fight, Ruby was losing pretty badly to Neo and Roman until "Interesting use/downside of Umbrellas" and "Case example of why promoting the virtues of nhilistic self-interest whilst surrounded by Grimm is a bad idea" came into play.

Eh, I read the fight differently. Also, if she knew she didn't have access to her magnetic powers yet, then she should of REALLY kept hold of her shield. A last desperation style attack would be to try and make Cinder fall off the building.

How does one make an opponent that has been floating in the air for the majority of the battle, propelled by flames from their powers, fall off a building for any appreciable effect?

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-08, 01:39 PM

Eh, I read the fight differently. Also, if she knew she didn't have access to her magnetic powers yet, then she should of REALLY kept hold of her shield. A last desperation style attack would be to try and make Cinder fall off the building.

Cinder...? ...The...same one that can float/fly and brake in mid-air?

I mean, it basically came down to what Glynda told Jaune all the way back in Jaundice except in reverse, Pyrrha had been playing defensively for most of the fight to no avail so when her aura ran out, went with an offensive tactic to do SOMETHING. Maybe she would have survived longer by holding onto her shield but what would that have accomplished from Pyrrha's perspective? As far as she knew, no one was coming to help her and she had no more tricks in her bag, stalling wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Rawhide, I don't know where the in-depth discussion thread is...or what it was called. XD

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 01:47 PM

Cinder...? ...The...same one that can float/fly and brake in mid-air?

I mean, it basically came down to what Glynda told Jaune all the way back in Jaundice except in reverse, Pyrrha had been playing defensively for most of the fight to no avail so when her aura ran out, went with an offensive tactic to do SOMETHING. Maybe she would have survived longer by holding onto her shield but what would that have accomplished from Pyrrha's perspective? As far as she knew, no one was coming to help her and she had no more tricks in her bag, stalling wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Rawhide, I don't know where the in-depth discussion thread is...or what it was called. XD

I mean in that case it WOULD be a last desperation attack. She can fly, sure, but what if Pyrrha slammed into her and dragged her down, preventing her flight. That'd feel more desperation fueled.

Quiver

2016-10-08, 03:51 PM

Forum Explorer

2016-10-08, 04:02 PM

I apparently have a completely different take on Cinder than...everyone. Huh.:smallconfused:

My impression was that...yeah, she plans things. But the back half of volume 3 felt like she was...gambling? Roulette-ing? Is that the verb for it?

It's one if the points I liked about her, actually. The fight with Amber? Yes, she started with a plan; they were taking on someone with godpowers, so Leroy Jenkins-ing wasn't an option. And my impression from the fight was that their win was a marginal one.

Same for the tournament; she had a plan, saw the opportunity provided by metal vs polarity, and then used that to her advantage instead. Everything after Pyrrha's fight with Penny was improv; that Cinder was smart enough to pull that off isn't a black mark against her character.

Now... Three seasons in, I do wish we knew more about her personality and motivations. At the moment, she almost seems to be working off of Joker logic, anarchy and chaos for the sake of anarchy and chaos. And...well, volume 3 killed off the character who could have been her Batman, so if Cinder is only after chaos? That's disappointing.

So...yeah. Hoping volume 4 sheds some light on her, and Rwby in general? I enjoy it, and Rwby Chibi, but it could be better.

Improvising is the word you're looking for. But if that was the case, we'd see things go wrong in a meaningful way for her, instead of it always going her way. Like none of her 'failures' actually have a meaningful impact on her plans. And we get enough screentime of her to see that her plans pretty much aren't effected.

Also her whole lack of personality despite the large amount of screentime she has gotten is pretty brutal. Like, I don't care about her at all. If she doesn't show up in later seasons I don't think the story would be harmed at all.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-08, 04:32 PM

I apparently have a completely different take on Cinder than...everyone. Huh.:smallconfused:

My impression was that...yeah, she plans things. But the back half of volume 3 felt like she was...gambling? Roulette-ing? Is that the verb for it?

It's one if the points I liked about her, actually. The fight with Amber? Yes, she started with a plan; they were taking on someone with godpowers, so Leroy Jenkins-ing wasn't an option. And my impression from the fight was that their win was a marginal one.

Same for the tournament; she had a plan, saw the opportunity provided by metal vs polarity, and then used that to her advantage instead. Everything after Pyrrha's fight with Penny was improv; that Cinder was smart enough to pull that off isn't a black mark against her character.

Now... Three seasons in, I do wish we knew more about her personality and motivations. At the moment, she almost seems to be working off of Joker logic, anarchy and chaos for the sake of anarchy and chaos. And...well, volume 3 killed off the character who could have been her Batman, so if Cinder is only after chaos? That's disappointing.

So...yeah. Hoping volume 4 sheds some light on her, and Rwby in general? I enjoy it, and Rwby Chibi, but it could be better.

Her motivation is vague...but only in the sense we don't know why she wants it. Cinder wants to be powerful so that people fear her, but we don't know why she wants to be feared beyond a vague impression that she wasn't exactly in control of her life before.

I got a similar impression of her honestly in that towards the end of volume she began to improv, but...not that much. Like they had the plan with the tournament beforehand and yeah it got messed up because Torchwick went early, but it was otherwise going smooth. Then they got the access point in Ironwood's scroll and changed the plan to use Penny in it and to account for Torchwick being captured. Before then...we still know part of it...that being a big White Fang attack which probably would have brought the Grimm anyway to sow panic and fear...both to awaken the Wyrm and to create a chance to take the rest of the Fall Maiden's powers..plus, y'know, smoke out where they were hiding her.

Sadly, that's about it. I like the plan in Volume 3 because it was very coherent and effective but we don't know the original trigger for the Grimm attack. I do regret that in Volume 3 we learned a bit about Mercury and Emerald but not nearly as much about Cinder. Hopefully she gets more development soon.

Quiver

2016-10-08, 04:37 PM

Improvising is the word you're looking for. But if that was the case, we'd see things go wrong in a meaningful way for her, instead of it always going her way. Like none of her 'failures' actually have a meaningful impact on her plans. And we get enough screentime of her to see that her plans pretty much aren't effected.

Also her whole lack of personality despite the large amount of screentime she has gotten is pretty brutal. Like, I don't care about her at all. If she doesn't show up in later seasons I don't think the story would be harmed at all.

Considering how I used improv in literally the next paragraph, I have no idea how I forgot 'improvising' as a word. Mea culpa.

Anyhow... I think, in the case of Cinder, I'm a little more forgiving (too much so, I'll admit). I find the idea of evil!Cinderella compelling enough that I do want to see her get more screentime and personality...

But it is hard go argue against her lack of it so far. Sure she's had flashes of characterisation -her general smugness, her persistence, "Don't think, just obey"- but there isn't anything particularly unique about the character yet.

Partly, I think I've been willing to let the show coast by on superficial fairy tale logic...and fairy tale villains, while generally symbolic of something, don't have especially complex psychological profiles.

As for what Cinder has represented until now...? That's where I start to fall back to the (uninteresting) prospect of "anarchy and chaos". Social Revolution? I think that Remnant is...

The White Fang is an interesting concept to me. I'm always fascinated by that idea of "Your terrorists are our freedom fighters," which they very directly play into. I think that Cinder is maybe marching to a similar drum as Adam; the world needs fixing, so we're going to beat it until it changes shape.

So, season 3, I think, is built around that idea. We see the old order trying to hold on...but after Amber is attacked, that really isn't an option anymore. Season 3... I think the back half of it feels like an escalating apocalypse narrative. Of course Pyrrha dies, because she was the chosen champion of the old world, a society which, thanks to Cinder, doesn't exist anymore. Peace has ended.

So... I don't know? Sorry; I think this is incoherent rambling. But I do think that...going forward, we'll get more o an idea of what Cinder wants. Because we have to know what kind of world she wants, so we can contrast it with the world that Ruby wants...and because we're past the point where we can drop back on "fairytale logic" as an excuse. We're Post-apocalypse, and in that landscape, character motivations becomes even more important.

I don't think that excuses her earlier showings, but I am willing to be a little Ore lenient with her, I guess? Bingewatching the series might have helped gloss over the problems too...

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 04:39 PM

Here is the sum total of what we know about Cinder's personality. After whatever that Grimm sock puppet thing she hugged Amber with absorbed itself into her body, she said that she feels empty inside, and that she likes it.

So, assuming she means like...emotionally, she's probably a nihilist. This is way to much thought to put into this waste of a character though.

Quiver

2016-10-08, 04:42 PM

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 04:50 PM

Sorry. I admit, I have a...very definite tendency of playing apologist and overanalysing stuff sometimes.:smalleek:

I like overanalyzing stuff but we have to do it properly, we can't just throw garbage on the wall and call it a game theory, as appropriate as it would be to do so.

My problem is if they really want us to believe Cinder was flying by the seat of her pants...show us? When Ozpin stands against her, and he shows he's actually really powerful and badass...make her lose her swagger. Ozpin does his flashstepping nonsense and Cinder goes "..............****! I thought you were just an old man!"

That makes her subsequent defeat of him more impressive since she was surprised by him, and still pulled it out. Likewise with Pyrrha, to me it's clear that Cinder is having a hard time of it, even with god powers...why NOT make it like that. She's at the zenith of her confidence and and try as she might, she CAN'T just incinerate her. Pyrrha's JUST THAT GOOD. Maybe have Cinder start to doubt the person who's led her all this way, that these Maiden powers aren't actually special and it's all been lies and myths, and the reason why Salem wants them is for a completely different reason. Give our villain SOMETHING that makes her even one IOTA more interesting than a generic cackling "just as planned" villain.

As someone who is trying to get into writing herself, and wants to make a eventual comic/manga type thing, this is something I've put a lot of thought into. I've got a villain myself who could very well come off as the ultimate smug "just as planned" type villain...but I've made very sure to show that he's NOT, he just IS good at improvising, and I'll be sure to SHOW that. It makes them more interesting, and it even has shades of reflection with the hero, since as heroes are typically reactive, as opposed to a villain's proactiveness, they need to fly by the seat of their pants more often than not. Showing the slight mirroring can be fun.

Reddish Mage

2016-10-08, 08:55 PM

Ramza00

2016-10-08, 09:57 PM

Cinder is going to remain a one dimensional villain until we understand her backstory or her motivations. Until then we just get a flat INTJ (or possible INFJ) villian, who is a cardboard cut out and might as well be from a scooby doo episode talking about her evil plan / evil keikaku.

Side note, it would be awesome if Cinder turns out to be a messed up and twisted INFJ and that is why she is causing the world to burn (nothing is scarier than an INFJ villain willing to do genocide), I say this for INTJ villains are one of the most common personality type you see in literature / tv, always with a perfect plan, always so methodical.

Dasgovernator

2016-10-08, 10:43 PM

In unrelated news:
Did they just save all the good shorts for the end of the run? Even the Junior detectives one wasn't that cringe-worthy, and Ren the hard-ass dance instructor made me actually laugh out loud. These bits are really at at their finest when poking fun of some of the inconsistencies in their own universe.

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 10:43 PM

The chilbi personalities of these Cinder only further reinforce our impression: she's is generic villain without the overpower angle. She show the strength of an OP type that can just stomp the heroes, play them like a cat and mouse, and so on...but if she has another side, a human-side, we aren't shown it.

We get a scene were Cinder maybe gets her soul eaten out of her, the comment is "I think I like it."

I think the VA and the design nails the female villainess, I like that about her, but I'll fully admit she's two-dimensional and a stock character stuff into a tight outfit. She just happens to have a physical design, moveset, and square-on hammy authenticity that is a cut above the last villainess to pop up in a JRPG.

While slinky dresses are nice and all, I think Cinder's outfits are all basically terrible? Slippery red dress with yellow highlights, slippery tiny dress that looks sort of Mortal Kombat esque with gold highlights, random cat suit that didn't really need to be used, and then whatever the ****ing nonsense that hipster bandage suit was.

I'd also argue that her being barely a cut above a female villain from a JRPG, but it's literally taken me over like 10 minutes to think of any female villain in an RPG that isn't ****ing utter trash, or part of a game that is such a garbage fire that I don't think it'd count anyway. Especially not any recent ones.

If you want to get super technical Lightning from the FF13 games is technically a villain.

Cinder is going to remain a one dimensional villain until we understand her backstory or her motivations. Until then we just get a flat INTJ (or possible INFJ) villian, who is a cardboard cut out and might as well be from a scooby doo episode talking about her evil plan / evil keikaku.

Side note, it would be awesome if Cinder turns out to be a messed up and twisted INFJ and that is why she is causing the world to burn (nothing is scarier than an INFJ villain willing to do genocide), I say this for INTJ villains are one of the most common personality type you see in literature / tv, always with a perfect plan, always so methodical.

I'm going to assume you're talking about myres briggs personality types, which I know nothing and do not care to learn anything about at the moment, so...could you elaborate?

Ramza00

2016-10-08, 11:29 PM

I'm going to assume you're talking about myres briggs personality types, which I know nothing and do not care to learn anything about at the moment, so...could you elaborate?

INFJ personality are the idealistic counselor type of personality who normally try to make the world a better place. Also can be called other things such as Mentor, Advocate, and a couple other things. Often in heroic type literature they are the Paladin or the Seeker of Wisdom / Knowledge, or the wise Mentor (think qui gon jinn)

But they can also be villains as well, and quite scary villains when they occur. Think Ras Al Ghul of Batman, Melisandre of ASOIAF / Game of Thrones, Senator Palpatine of the Prequel Star Wars (we do not see enough of him in ROTJ to type him), Zaheer from Legend of Korra. Often when you see them as villains you seem them willing to do great evil that they know is evil, but they do not care for it suits a bigger purpose (genocide, overturning governments / structures) or when they manipulate people by understanding peoples feelings and using those feelings to convince someone to do X for they want to do X.

----

INTJ is more of the stereotypical mastermind, if a plan requires lots of details and layers and planning ahead often you are dealing with the INTJ personality.

LaZodiac

2016-10-08, 11:56 PM

Neat. I hope my work becomes liked enough for nerds to yell about personality classifications on the internet about it.

Dragonexx

2016-10-08, 11:57 PM

LaZodiac

2016-10-09, 12:45 AM

Honestly, personally, I'd like it if Cinders goals were purely selfish. She doesn't want to fix the world, just take what she wants and do what she wants without consequence, and so seeks the power to do just that. Then we could have some friction with Salem (do we know anything about her yet) who has actual plans for the world.

I don't mind if her goals are petty. Hell one could argue it'd be better writing if she did all this because of some stupid reason she personally cares about, basically using Salem as Salem uses her, and it'd be a nice contrast to Roman. You're just like him Cinder, but with zero of the charisma. I just want her motivations and goals to exist at all.

Quiver

2016-10-09, 05:16 AM

While this doesn't count as foreshadowing, I do think there is a wonderful bit of fridge logic involved in Ruby having the silver eyes power.

After all, Ruby is based on the motif of Little Red Riding Hood, whose enemy was the big bad Wolf. Ruby seems to be mostly associated with the beowolf grimes as enemies...

And what does folklore cie as werewolf weakness? Silver.
Like I say, doesn't replace foreshadowing, and the Silver Eyes power is stupidly convenient in hoe out of nowhere it came...but I do like that little tie-in.

Dragonexx

2016-10-09, 10:06 AM

You know what would have been good foreshadowing? In one of the episodes of season 1 (7 or 8 I think) Jaune goes into the cave where the deathstrike (scorpion) grim is. Before encountering it, we see some cave paintings on the wall of warriors fighting grim. One of those warriors could have had silver glowing eyes. It wouldn't spoil anything, but it would give some nice foreshadowing.

LaZodiac

2016-10-09, 10:10 AM

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-09, 02:32 PM

Or some kind of weird mural of giant wings coming out of their face, because that's what happened. All foreshadowing ideas that would be actually okay.

I do wish we had gotten more foreshadowing on the Silver Eyes...assuming that it is actually a thing. As is, we only had the comment from Ozpin in the first episode, the fact Ruby was garbage at fighting until Qrow (someone who recognized the Silver eyes as something her mother had and what it might mean) taught her, and the fact she is keeping up with most of her team-mates despite the fact she shouldn't be at Beacon yet. That last one could be ascribed to Ruby being naturally gifted, like Pyrrha, but even Pyrrha who we KNOW was a prodigy with many accolades to her name had to wait until she was old enough to attend Beacon.

...come to think of it, that last bit actually strikes me as more important now that I think about it. If Pyrrha, PYRRHA, had to wait before she could attend Beacon than Ruby being allowed in at her age was probably meant to be foreshadowing about the Silver Eyes. If it was meant as such, it was very subtle (arguably too subtle) but I wish there had been more that had been spaced out over all three volumes so there was a better pay-off to the reveal.

...for the record, I'm not entirely sure I buy Qrow's story about the Silver Eyes being a thing, cause Qrow (while a good guy) is a very shifty character that knows a lot more than he's letting on...and has no real reason to tell Ruby the truth but several to mislead her for her own good.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-09, 03:22 PM

Lethologica

2016-10-09, 05:21 PM

I do wish we had gotten more foreshadowing on the Silver Eyes...assuming that it is actually a thing. As is, we only had the comment from Ozpin in the first episode, the fact Ruby was garbage at fighting until Qrow (someone who recognized the Silver eyes as something her mother had and what it might mean) taught her, and the fact she is keeping up with most of her team-mates despite the fact she shouldn't be at Beacon yet. That last one could be ascribed to Ruby being naturally gifted, like Pyrrha, but even Pyrrha who we KNOW was a prodigy with many accolades to her name had to wait until she was old enough to attend Beacon.
Ruby's only a year ahead of schedule, and she was personally taught by the elite of the elite. The silver eyes played a role in Ozpin admitting her, but that's not a distinct piece of foreshadowing.

Personally, I think the most interesting thing about that whole scene is that Ozpin either didn't know about Ruby already or was putting on an act for her. And the most interesting thing about Ruby being garbage before training with Qrow is the implication that Taiyang didn't train her, which adds some layers to that Qrow-Taiyang interaction at the end of Volume 3.

Also, like DoctorFaust, I really don't see what about the story suggests Qrow could be lying about the silver-eyed warriors bit. It's not even developed enough to be a purposeful lie.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-09, 06:36 PM

:smallconfused: How are you getting that the last two things you listed are evidence Ruby had access to a fourth, heretofore unknown supernatural ability? It seems like common sense to me that actually being taught how to fight with your weapon of choice would make you a lot better with it, even if you are a supposed to be a prodigy, and if I'm remembering correctly, the only requirement for getting in to Beacon is passing a combat test with no age limit. So it sorta stands to reason that anyone able to get into Beacon legitimately is going to have at least a certain level of skill with fighting. It has been quite a while since I watched the first episode, so I could be misremembering, but I could swear that was the only requirement.

Plus, skipping a grade is a pretty common way of showing how much more awesome someone is supposed to be than the rest of the cast. I'm sure there's other examples of it, but the only ones that come to mind are Doogie Howser and Chiyo from Azumanga.

First, it wasn't that she wasn't being trained with her weapon of choice, she was learning how to fight at Signal too. But in her own words, she was garbage until her uncle taught her. So something that works for every other student coming out of Signal was not working for Ruby for...some reason, we don't know.

Lemme put it this way, for as good as Ruby is, she isn't more awesome than the rest of the cast...except for Jaune and CRDL. She's on par with a lot of them and weaker than some of the standouts (Yang, Pyrrha, and Penny to name a few). In other words, there isn't some standout reason why she was skipped ahead when we are first introduced to her cause Glynda sees her fight too and doesn't find her that special (or at least special enough to jump tplo Beacon). So if it wasn't something Ruby could do at the time, it would have to be on something Ozpin thought she could do in the future or something he knew/guessed about her due to things he knows.

Considering we don't really know what the Silver Eyes are supposed to DO (aside from freeze Grimm Wyrms) because all we have is the Grimm incident and Crow saying the silver eyed warriors are born warriors which would imply those with them are naturally gifted in aome manner. Its not proof or even definitive foreshadowing of the Silver Eyes, but it could have been meant as such.

And can you explain what you mean by "...for the record, I'm not entirely sure I buy Qrow's story about the Silver Eyes being a thing"? I'll admit that I haven't watched the third season myself, but if LaZodiac's comments are anything to go by, Ruby definitely has some sort of power that is released from her special eyes.

Sure! What I mean is Ruby most certainly does have some special power from her eyes, but I don't buy Qrow's explanation for it because I don't trust Qrow to be honest with Ruby if it comes to his secret missions. Case and point, none of the main characters have yet to know about the Maidens still even if knowing would help RNGR in tracking down Cinder.

In other words, Ruby ahs some special power but I think its Maiden related and Qrow lied to keep that secret and possibly protect Ruby.

.Personally, I think the most interesting thing about that whole scene is that Ozpin either didn't know about Ruby already or was putting on an act for her. And the most interesting thing about Ruby being garbage before training with Qrow is the implication that Taiyang didn't train her, which adds some layers to that Qrow-Taiyang interaction at the end of Volume 3.

Also, like DoctorFaust, I really don't see what about the story suggests Qrow could be lying about the silver-eyed warriors bit. It's not even developed enough to be a purposeful lie.

Agreed on the Qrow-Taiyang front, that is also interesting...but those two aren't the only teachers at Signal....er...I hope anyway.

The story is fine for what it is...I don't trust Qrow on this because he...gives me a bad vibe. Not that he's secretly a villain or something, but that he's withholding a lot information and some of it pertains to Ruby I'm betting. There is SOMETHING going on with that man and it makes me doubt the silver eyed warrior story.

ace rooster

2016-10-09, 06:43 PM

Well we only have Ruby's word for it that she was 'garbage'. Significantly less effective would almost certainly be true, but that could mean only being able to take on 5 mooks, rather than 50. Being good at something usually means that you are aware of your mistakes, which means that the better you are the worse you think of your early performance. Her comments struck me as that sort of thing.

Forum Explorer

2016-10-09, 06:57 PM

DoctorFaust

2016-10-09, 07:54 PM

First, it wasn't that she wasn't being trained with her weapon of choice, she was learning how to fight at Signal too. But in her own words, she was garbage until her uncle taught her. So something that works for every other student coming out of Signal was not working for Ruby for...some reason, we don't know.

So, what, are you're saying you think that the characters spent all of their lives learning the same basic style of fighting, only to be turned lose to a world of radically customized weaponry and extremely varied fighting styles with all of the techniques transferring perfectly?

In other words, there isn't some standout reason why she was skipped ahead when we are first introduced to her cause Glynda sees her fight too and doesn't find her that special (or at least special enough to jump tplo Beacon). So if it wasn't something Ruby could do at the time, it would have to be on something Ozpin thought she could do in the future or something he knew/guessed about her due to things he knows.

I'd just like to point out the lack of logic in this statement. You just said that she is as good as characters that got into the school on their own merits that are older than her. That is why she was admitted.

Sure! What I mean is Ruby most certainly does have some special power from her eyes, but I don't buy Qrow's explanation for it because I don't trust Qrow to be honest with Ruby if it comes to his secret missions. Case and point, none of the main characters have yet to know about the Maidens still even if knowing would help RNGR in tracking down Cinder.

In other words, Ruby ahs some special power but I think its Maiden related and Qrow lied to keep that secret and possibly protect Ruby.

So why don't you trust Qrow? If I'm understanding the situation in the show correctly, we've seen nothing to indicate that he's lying about the special eyes. Maybe not telling the whole truth, but not outright lying about it or its source.

LaZodiac

2016-10-10, 12:12 AM

Plus, skipping a grade is a pretty common way of showing how much more awesome someone is supposed to be than the rest of the cast. I'm sure there's other examples of it, but the only ones that come to mind are Doogie Howser and Chiyo from Azumanga.

And can you explain what you mean by "...for the record, I'm not entirely sure I buy Qrow's story about the Silver Eyes being a thing"? I'll admit that I haven't watched the third season myself, but if LaZodiac's comments are anything to go by, Ruby definitely has some sort of power that is released from her special eyes.

I was going to say, her skipping a grade isn't a sign that she has never mentioned before super eyeball wing powers, it just means she's generically super special awesome.

Anyway, to remind people who haven't watched it or who haven't watched in awhile, the Silver Eyes are literally gigantic wings spurting out of Ruby's eyeballs. Here is a link to her doing it in the series. (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/4/4c/V3_12_00136.png/revision/latest?cb=20160214160440) Also here is a drawing by me of her doing it because I still think it's a good draw. (http://i.imgur.com/9P2y9sp.png)

I hope you guys realize that the RWBY wiki is a ****ing tire fire and it took me FAR longer than it should of to find this picture. Protip: When you have nearly 7 or 8 images per character per episode in your gallery, it's not a gallery it's a very choppy slide show. ****ing nonsense.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-10, 12:51 AM

So, what, are you're saying you think that the characters spent all of their lives learning the same basic style of fighting, only to be turned lose to a world of radically customized weaponry and extremely varied fighting styles with all of the techniques transferring perfectly?

No, I mean that I imagine that students forge their weapons pretty early on at Signal and the teachers there are compotent enough to be able to mentor them to the point where they are roughly as talented as Weiss and Blake.

So why not Ruby? It just strikes me as strange.

I'd just like to point out the lack of logic in this statement. You just said that she is as good as characters that got into the school on their own merits that are older than her. That is why she was admitted.

Then why isn't Pyrrha with the second year students like Team Coffe? She clearly doesn't belong with the rest of the first year students, why no exception for her? That's why Ruby's situation is odd to me. If Pyrrha wasn't moved ahead, why was Ruby? The convenient answer would be because Pyrrha wouldn't have a team to be on if they did, but they probably could have figured out something.

So why don't you trust Qrow? If I'm understanding the situation in the show correctly, we've seen nothing to indicate that he's lying about the special eyes. Maybe not telling the whole truth, but not outright lying about it or its source.

Most of my answers are in bold above, cause I'm replying from my phone, but this one I'll answer here.

I don't know.

I really don't, but he's setting off all kinds of flags in my head from little things like not telling Yang about her mom (y'know, one of the driving focuses of her life when he is otherwise a pretty good uncle) until he had to in order to give Yang a pick me up to the bigger things like his answer when Ruby asked him how he knew what Ozpin said to her when they first met (he deflected the question with a non-answer) and how he has Ozpin's cane despite Ozpin's likely capture. A lot of his actions and dialogue don't add up to me and not in the 'the writing isn't solid' way either but the 'something is up with this guy' way.

To be perfectly honest, I'm probably wrong and the Silver Eyes turn out to just be their own thing, but I would not be surprised one bit to find out that the Silver Eyes really are just a story that Qrow is using to cover up the fact Ruby is likely a Maiden or something. He just...comes off like the sort who would do that.

DoctorFaust

2016-10-10, 05:08 AM

No, I mean that I imagine that students forge their weapons pretty early on at Signal and the teachers there are compotent enough to be able to mentor them to the point where they are roughly as talented as Weiss and Blake.

So why not Ruby? It just strikes me as strange.

Everyone else uses a fighting style that at least has roots in a real one. Boxing, shooting, tai chi, fencing, HEMA, whatever the greek spear thing is called, or even just whacking things with big chunks of metal. And Blake has the excuse that she's fought for her life before she got into Beacon, so she would be good pretty much by necessity. Whereas Ruby uses a weapon that is noted as being both rare and extremely difficult to use, so I really don't think its that far fetched that there might not be someone at Signal to teach her how to use it properly. You wouldn't expect someone who studies Brazillian Jiu-jitsu to be any good at teaching someone how to fence, after all.

By the way, does anyone know the actual line?

Then why isn't Pyrrha with the second year students like Team Coffe? She clearly doesn't belong with the rest of the first year students, why no exception for her? That's why Ruby's situation is odd to me. If Pyrrha wasn't moved ahead, why was Ruby? The convenient answer would be because Pyrrha wouldn't have a team to be on if they did, but they probably could have figured out something.

I mean...they kinda did kill of one of their most popular characters because they couldn't think of anything else for him to do. Would you really put it past them?

But addressing the in-universe logic of it, she isn't shown as being as good as the second years IIRC. In the big marquee fight at the end of S2, RWBY and JNPR, including Phyrra, were supposed to be being overwhelmed by the grimm before the upperclassmen showed up.

I don't know.

I really don't, but he's setting off all kinds of flags in my head from little things like not telling Yang about her mom (y'know, one of the driving focuses of her life when he is otherwise a pretty good uncle) until he had to in order to give Yang a pick me up to the bigger things like his answer when Ruby asked him how he knew what Ozpin said to her when they first met (he deflected the question with a non-answer) and how he has Ozpin's cane despite Ozpin's likely capture. A lot of his actions and dialogue don't add up to me and not in the 'the writing isn't solid' way either but the 'something is up with this guy' way.

To be perfectly honest, I'm probably wrong and the Silver Eyes turn out to just be their own thing, but I would not be surprised one bit to find out that the Silver Eyes really are just a story that Qrow is using to cover up the fact Ruby is likely a Maiden or something. He just...comes off like the sort who would do that.

It seems to be like the first two could be written off as simple reticence about exposing secrets, whether familial or governmental, to his school-aged nieces, and I thought there was a fairly significant gap between when Ozpin was captured and when Ruby froze the school where Qrow could've gotten in to retrieve it, on top of it being dumb to let a captive keep their weapon.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-10, 04:02 PM

Everyone else uses a fighting style that at least has roots in a real one. Boxing, shooting, tai chi, fencing, HEMA, whatever the greek spear thing is called, or even just whacking things with big chunks of metal. And Blake has the excuse that she's fought for her life before she got into Beacon, so she would be good pretty much by necessity. Whereas Ruby uses a weapon that is noted as being both rare and extremely difficult to use, so I really don't think its that far fetched that there might not be someone at Signal to teach her how to use it properly. You wouldn't expect someone who studies Brazillian Jiu-jitsu to be any good at teaching someone how to fence, after all.

By the way, does anyone know the actual line?

Not off the top of my head, but it was along the lines of 'I was complete garbage until my uncle taught me, and now I'm all like *kung-fu noises*'. Though I should note they don't say scythe fighters are rare but the weapon itself is dangerous. And yeah, could just be that and likely is but it stands out as peculiar.

I mean...they kinda did kill of one of their most popular characters because they couldn't think of anything else for him to do. Would you really put it past them?

But addressing the in-universe logic of it, she isn't shown as being as good as the second years IIRC. In the big marquee fight at the end of S2, RWBY and JNPR, including Phyrra, were supposed to be being overwhelmed by the grimm before the upperclassmen showed up.

You mean Torchwick? The character who was never meant to make it to the third season and was only brought back BECAUSE he was so popular to give a better ending to the fans instead of just being sent off to prison? :smalltongue:

But the overwhelming is just by sheer numbers nor where they overwhelmed (which implies the teams themselves were in danger), they were overrun because they didn't have the manpower to stop all the Grimm which arrived in short order. That attack was dangerous but it wasn't a huge thing because it happened way before it was supposed to happen. In terms of quality? I've seen nothing from the upperclassmen that shows they are better than Pyrrha, just on par with her.

It seems to be like the first two could be written off as simple reticence about exposing secrets, whether familial or governmental, to his school-aged nieces, and I thought there was a fairly significant gap between when Ozpin was captured and when Ruby froze the school where Qrow could've gotten in to retrieve it, on top of it being dumb to let a captive keep their weapon.

Okay, but that's not quite the case. From all we've been told, what Raven is doing is not a secret of any kind. Raven isn't on some kind of secret mission and she does not appear to be involved in the main story as of right now so there is, quite literally, no reason NOT to tell Yang. Qrow does say he was waiting for the right time to tell Yang about Raven but she didn't even know that Qrow talked to his sister at all, which...is a weird secret to keep. Yeah, Raven is apparently dangerous so keeping leads on her location a secret makes sense but he hides the fact he talks to her at all.

And for the second, that's not about not revealing a secret because he tells Ruby that he's been working for Ozpin the entire time right after that...but that has nothing to do with what Ozpin first said to her. It has nothing to do with her question either! Ozpin mentions Ruby's silver eyes when they first meet...but Qrow doesn't come back to Vale until Volume 3 in part because while he's giving reports but no one is talking back to him after a substantial period of time has passed. Why on earth would Ozpin tell Qrow 'Hey, met your niece. Told her she had silver eyes, how was your mission?'. There's absolutely no reason for Qrow to know what Ozpin said and yet Qrow does and when questioned about it...doesn't answer. He deflects the question and talks about something else and that's what bothers me...because it implies that Qrow know what happened that night...somehow and how he knows is a secret he can't share with his niece. Which if the Silver Eyes story is more than just a ridiculous story and something he knew about because of Summer...well...it has nothing to do with the Maidens which is the only secret that we KNOW Qrow needs to keep so he doesn't need to hide how he knew Ozpin said that because...it doesn't really matter. It has nothing to do with his missions or the secret society, there's no reason to avoid the question of why on earth Ozpin would bring up an off-hand observation he made when first meeting Ruby.

And that's what is suspicious to me...Silver Eyes do not seem like world-shattering secret if it was released, not like the existence of actual magic. Heck, they'd probably just be mistaken for another genetically inherited semblance like Schnee Glyphs/Summoning from what we've seen so far of what they can do. So even if Ozpin picked up on it, there's still not a reason to tell Qrow something he probably already knows about. It seems like the only reason for Ozpin to mention what he told Ruby to Qrow (assuming he doesn't know for some other, shady reason, see below) is if it related to their mission to protect and hide the Maidens. If so, I could see Qrow lying to Ruby about what she did to keep word about the fact that Ruby was tied to the Maidens on the down low, especially since he knows for a fact that a group of people with skill and cunning are hunting down Maidens kill them/steal their abilities.

It just stands out as particularly strange that Qrow doesn't JUST know what Ozpin first said to Ruby, that could be easily explained...but its that Qrow dodges the question of how he knew that which implies there is more to it than that.

Another explanation is that Qrow and Ozpin share some deeper connection (no, not that way! :smalltongue:) that explains how Qrow knows what Ozpin said and had his cane, but doesn't change the fact Qrow comes off as really suspicious because of these things.

Especially since Beacon is completely overwhelmed by Grimm by the end of the Battle for Beacon, to the point everyone has to withdraw for fear of being murder-death-killed. And yet Qrow somehow still manages to sneak in long enough to search through Beacon to find Ozpin's cane? Cause Qrow doesn't know what happened to Ozpin or where it happened so he'd have to search through. I mean, on its own its not suspicious, just means Qrow did just that which is highly possible for him since he can turn into a bird (Semblance my ass on that one) and is a fully trained huntsman that has been retrieving information for quite some time...its just in combination with the above stuff that it makes me suspicious.

Hopefully that helped clear up my thought process but...uhh...I don't think it did because I'm terrible at explaining my thoughts most of the time. The TL;DR version is quite simply that a lot of the things that Qrow has done aren't suspicious to me...on their own, but they aren't on their own and thus I am suspicious of him.

Lethologica

2016-10-10, 04:20 PM

The disconnect I have is that Qrow is obviously enigmatic, but enigmatic is not the same as suspicious. We have reason to believe he's not telling us everything, but not that he's lying to us.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-10, 04:31 PM

The disconnect I have is that Qrow is obviously enigmatic, but enigmatic is not the same as suspicious. We have reason to believe he's not telling us everything, but not that he's lying to us.

You're right, its not the same but the two are rather similar and can go hand in hand quite easily.

I don't expect I'm right on this, but I won't be surprised if I am either.

LaZodiac

2016-10-10, 04:39 PM

The RWBY manga updated two months ago by the way and I didn't realize until just now because even I've stopped baring. It's mostly just Yang being her psycho self against Junior's bar...but they add in some stuff to make it actually some good characterization and world building.

Junior mentions that all the fighting is fine, it's "that kind of place" after all. But at the very least they can buy some drinks? So Yang is like "sure" and buys two non alcoholic drinks for her and Ruby, they drink them, then leave.

Also all of his men, and him included, are covered in bandages because Yang helped patch them up after murdering half of them.

CrazyPenguin

2016-10-11, 11:34 AM

I would not be surprised one bit to find out that the Silver Eyes really are just a story that Qrow is using to cover up the fact Ruby is likely a Maiden or something. He just...comes off like the sort who would do that.

Same. I kinda got the feeling it was just bullcrap he made up to cover up something else.

Alternatively, maybe it wasn't a whole truth. Like, maybe silver eyes is a trait that is associated with something else (if you become x Maiden your eyes turn silver or something like that) and people who didn't know about the Maiden saw silver-eyed women being awesome and came up with the silver-eyed warrior story without realizing where the power came from. (Plus didn't Amber and Cinder have weird wing-type-things around their eyes while using their Maiden powers?)

Anyway, just wanted to throw in my thoughts. Sorry if that was just incoherent rambling, as at the moment I am very, very tired.

LaZodiac

2016-10-11, 11:37 AM

Same. I kinda got the feeling it was just bullcrap he made up to cover up something else.

Alternatively, maybe it wasn't a whole truth. Like, maybe silver eyes is a trait that is associated with something else (if you become x Maiden your eyes turn silver or something like that) and people who didn't know about the Maiden saw silver-eyed women being awesome and came up with the silver-eyed warrior story without realizing where the power came from. (Plus didn't Amber and Cinder have weird wing-type-things around their eyes while using their Maiden powers?)

Anyway, just wanted to throw in my thoughts. Sorry if that was just incoherent rambling, as at the moment I am very, very tired.

They had kinda fire eyeballs, yeah. But I don't think Ruby is a maiden since otherwise I feel Qrowe would of told her that, and the colour is all silver and stuff so it'd be Winter, which doesn't make sense for Ruby at all as a special power up thing.

So instead they go with some kind of creepy eyeball wing hunter vision that paralyzes things.

Metahuman1

2016-10-14, 09:55 AM

LaZodiac

2016-10-14, 09:59 AM

Unless it's a white and pure spring rebirth.

Or the white hot intensity of summer heat.

I'm banking on the former, but the latter is technically viable and spring for yang would be an interesting subversion of expectations.

The colour of Spring is green and Summer is pink (or vice versa I don't remember) according to official videos. So while it'd be interesting, they'd also be going against their own canon on that...not that that's any different from normal here.

Also "interesting subversion of expectations" would be me being right and Roman being the true mastermind :smallamused:

Rawhide

2016-10-14, 11:41 AM

Also "interesting subversion of expectations" would be me being right

Saving this quote for later.

Lethologica

2016-10-14, 12:39 PM

Some notable other appearances of silver-gray eyes (from TVTropes):
-Claymore warriors
-Malory's King Arthur (not the others, though)
-Fate Averruncus, the artificial human from Mahou Sensei Negima!
-Rand al'Thor from Wheel of Time
-House of Stark, ASOIAF
-Athena the 'gray-eyed goddess'

So, rough sketch of possibilities:
-Part Grimm or similar
-Hidden royal
-Artificial human
-Reincarnated superhuman mage
-Can turn into or possess Grimm
-...no, I can't think of one for Athena.

One other idea occurs to me. Silver stands for the moon, and the shattered moon should be significant. Silver is Artemis' color, and, well, something something goddess of the hunt. If I were picking myths, that's the one I'd pick.

(Incidentally: is Dust moonstuff fallen to Remnant? I think this may have come up in the thread before.)

(Also: Remnant of what?)

(Also also: what's with the dragon-shaped continent in the northwest? There are slightly less dragon-shaped bits on the other continents, too.)

Saving this quote for later.
savage

LaZodiac

2016-10-14, 01:08 PM

Saving this quote for later.

That's fair. After all...

http://i.imgur.com/nwGJK3d.png

Some notable other appearances of silver-gray eyes (from TVTropes):

savage

Of those you listed I think the Claymore one is the most likely inspiration, given what RWBY is.

I set myself up for it and arguably deserved it.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-15, 03:00 AM

That's fair. After all...

http://i.imgur.com/nwGJK3d.png

Rawhide, how could you? :smalltongue: For shame.

Of those you listed I think the Claymore one is the most likely inspiration, given what RWBY is.

I set myself up for it and arguably deserved it.

Until we know more, I'm not sure we'll be able to tell what the inspiration is. Right now there just isn't enough info to work off of.

...Also, I tried to read the RWBY manga but something is really off-putting about it and I can't really put my finger on it. The art and dialogue just feels very...busy, like there's too much going on at once.

LaZodiac

2016-10-15, 09:46 AM

...Also, I tried to read the RWBY manga but something is really off-putting about it and I can't really put my finger on it. The art and dialogue just feels very...busy, like there's too much going on at once.

Aside from the first few chapters which had Ruby beat up Cardin, they're all just redos of the introductionary teaser trailers RWBY had. So if they feel busy and chaotic, that's kind of on the source material's hands :smallamused:

For what it's worth, I do feel the art is a little offputting, something about the mangaka's art for make the characters look a little psychotic at times. I'd argue this is a POSITIVE, because Ruby and Yang are the people this affects the most and they should look psychotic, especially Yang when doing her super move.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-15, 11:57 AM

Aside from the first few chapters which had Ruby beat up Cardin, they're all just redos of the introductionary teaser trailers RWBY had. So if they feel busy and chaotic, that's kind of on the source material's hands :smallamused:

For what it's worth, I do feel the art is a little offputting, something about the mangaka's art for make the characters look a little psychotic at times. I'd argue this is a POSITIVE, because Ruby and Yang are the people this affects the most and they should look psychotic, especially Yang when doing her super move.

That's just it though, I didn't have a problem with the introductory trailers and they didn't feel...'busy'. I might be phrasing it wrong cause I liked the extra details they throw in to explain stuff...dunno when it comes to action, it all seems to just turn into a blur of lines. I think it might just be the art style the mangaka uses...it does feel a lot like Claymore now that someone reminded me of it but it doesn't feel quite as clean.

I have noticed the psychotic look thing a bit...and its very off-putting, especially combined with the somewhat alien way he does faces. I mean Yang I can kinda see (psychotic is close to angry I guess) but for Ruby its just strange.

LaZodiac

2016-10-15, 02:05 PM

That's just it though, I didn't have a problem with the introductory trailers and they didn't feel...'busy'. I might be phrasing it wrong cause I liked the extra details they throw in to explain stuff...dunno when it comes to action, it all seems to just turn into a blur of lines. I think it might just be the art style the mangaka uses...it does feel a lot like Claymore now that someone reminded me of it but it doesn't feel quite as clean.

I have noticed the psychotic look thing a bit...and its very off-putting, especially combined with the somewhat alien way he does faces. I mean Yang I can kinda see (psychotic is close to angry I guess) but for Ruby its just strange.

The action in the manga doesn't resemble Claymore at all, and not just because it's clean. And for what it's worth, a lot of the combat in RWBY feels to me like the manga RWBY feels to you. It's cluttered and bad. It's definitely a case of the mangaka's art style, and I'm not the biggest fan of it (the Yang chapter takes place in a perfectly blank void, for example) but I think it's better than the show.

I personally feel it makes as much sense with Ruby as it does with Yang. Ruby as a young girl was in a village that was attacked by Grimm and Qrowe killed some in front of her. She's also presented as a weirdo who has trouble interacting with people, so having her be a little offputting helps deliver that feeling. It also hints at the idea of her bloodlust for battle, in a fight she looks a little deranged, because she's letting that strange part of herself out.

Yang's super mode is meant to be her just flipping the hell out, so her looking psychotic there makes perfect sense.

Metahuman1

2016-10-15, 06:08 PM

The colour of Spring is green and Summer is pink (or vice versa I don't remember) according to official videos. So while it'd be interesting, they'd also be going against their own canon on that...not that that's any different from normal here.

Also "interesting subversion of expectations" would be me being right and Roman being the true mastermind :smallamused:

Or maybe your right and the Silver eyes thing is she's part Grim?

Now that I think about it though, Weiss's arc seems to involve defrosting the ice queen, as the saying goes, maybe Ruby has Winter power and Weiss lands spring, just to surprise everyone?

LaZodiac

2016-10-15, 06:09 PM

Or maybe your right and the Silver eyes thing is she's part Grim?

Now that I think about it though, Weiss's arc seems to involve defrosting the ice queen, as the saying goes, maybe Ruby has Winter power and Weiss lands spring, just to surprise everyone?

I think it's more a sing of relation to Grimm, myself.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-15, 07:55 PM

The action in the manga doesn't resemble Claymore at all, and not just because it's clean. And for what it's worth, a lot of the combat in RWBY feels to me like the manga RWBY feels to you. It's cluttered and bad. It's definitely a case of the mangaka's art style, and I'm not the biggest fan of it (the Yang chapter takes place in a perfectly blank void, for example) but I think it's better than the show.

I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

And that's fair, your opinion is yours. :smallsmile:

I personally feel it makes as much sense with Ruby as it does with Yang. Ruby as a young girl was in a village that was attacked by Grimm and Qrowe killed some in front of her. She's also presented as a weirdo who has trouble interacting with people, so having her be a little offputting helps deliver that feeling. It also hints at the idea of her bloodlust for battle, in a fight she looks a little deranged, because she's letting that strange part of herself out.

Yang's super mode is meant to be her just flipping the hell out, so her looking psychotic there makes perfect sense.

Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.

LaZodiac

2016-10-15, 08:42 PM

I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

And that's fair, your opinion is yours. :smallsmile:

Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.

Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

Yeah, to each their own/

To clarify, all the series does is present her as a normal girl, who when she actually battles seriously, gets this dead eye star that goes a thousand miles, and smiles widely in a way that looks just a bit too wide. They show us her backstory, but they don't say confirmed 100% that she's broken. Her nerves could be from the fact that she's damaged inside, or just because she's nervous, or both. They show her hugging her comfort blanket esque cap when she's allowed to attach it to her uniform so your guess is as good as mine. The point is they raise a question.

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.

Rawhide

2016-10-15, 10:28 PM

...Also, I tried to read the RWBY manga but something is really off-putting about it and I can't really put my finger on it. The art and dialogue just feels very...busy, like there's too much going on at once.

Back when I had to determine if the link posted to the manga was legitimate (spoiler: it wasn't, so I had to remove it), I read the first issue of the manga. I couldn't understand a thing that was going on.

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman

Uhha, a Legitimate Businessman™, *nod*nod*.

LaZodiac

2016-10-15, 10:40 PM

Uhha, a Legitimate Businessman™, *nod*nod*.

I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-15, 11:04 PM

Hint hint....somebody who has connections to underground stuff, mooks with things like rocket-hammers, two female fighters who don't seem particularly connected to the Huntresses, is supposed to be a place where you go for shady info, which Yang says is on the bad side of town.....probably not all that legit. and considering Ruby's reaction to all this is on the lines of "hey sis!" as she walks out....doesn't seem all that abnormal for Yang.

I think Yang is just supposed to be the Han Solo to Ruby's Luke, while also being a protagonist who enjoys a fight. if thats psychotic, then most action anime protagonists are psychotic as well.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-15, 11:13 PM

Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

Ohhh, kay. What's Angel Densetsu about?

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.

That is...one version of events, haha.

Lethologica

2016-10-15, 11:30 PM

Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.

LaZodiac

2016-10-15, 11:36 PM

Ohhh, kay. What's Angel Densetsu about?

That is...one version of events, haha.

There was once a man with the heart of a sweet innocent child, but with the face of a raging demon. This is his story, his Angel Densetsu.

Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.

My exaggeration aside the manga does show Junior and his buddies in bandages, and we have no reason to assume any of those mooks had aura given Jaune didn't have it and they were wielding axes that had "weapon" written on them as opposed to any actual weapons. She at least HURT them. It was definitely unprovoked violence and that was my point.

Rawhide

2016-10-16, 12:25 AM

I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.

Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

Junior is not a legitimate businessman. The club is nothing but a front, and it's clear that illegal transactions were taking place between Junior and his clients in Junior's club, that makes the business itself illegitimate (so you can't even claim the business was a legitimate arm, even if everything else he did wasn't - before you factor in that he is almost certainly laundering the money from his other side projects through the club).

That is...one version of events, haha.

This.

LaZodiac

2016-10-16, 12:42 AM

Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

Yipes, that's...a little harsh.

I mean he still actually serves drinks and stuff right? It's a villain bar and he does illegal stuff but does that really make the legal stuff he do illegal by connection?

Rawhide

2016-10-16, 12:52 AM

Yipes, that's...a little harsh.

I mean he still actually serves drinks and stuff right? It's a villain bar and he does illegal stuff but does that really make the legal stuff he do illegal by connection?

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter how much legal stuff you try to bury your practices with, if a business exists solely to facilitate illegitimate business practices, that business is going to get shut down along with all of the other operations if discovered.

It doesn't matter if you legally sell drinks at a bar, if the sole purpose of that is to cover the tracks of your illegal side businesses.

It doesn't matter if you provide legitimate entertainment, if the business is being used to launder money (an extremely likely possibility).

Selling a drink = legal. Using the business as a front for crime = not.

LaZodiac

2016-10-16, 12:57 AM

That's fair. To each their own. My understanding was that it was less he was using the bar as a cover, and more that he was just doing the illegal stuff as a side job and his actual job was the bar.

Rawhide

2016-10-16, 01:03 AM

That's fair. To each their own. My understanding was that it was less he was using the bar as a cover, and more that he was just doing the illegal stuff as a side job and his actual job was the bar.

He made the illegal transactions in the club. That much is clear.

How deep it goes... well... probably much further.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-16, 01:05 AM

I mean he still actually serves drinks and stuff right? It's a villain bar and he does illegal stuff but does that really make the legal stuff he do illegal by connection?

No, but things like illegality and evil are a weight. you do bad things, doing random good or normal deeds doesn't lighten the load, it just means your aware enough to know these acts are bad yet allow yourself to be weighed down by this stuff anyways and thus get dragged down into it.

something legal is normal, not-notable, not a thing compared to that. They have no weight. Because your supposed to do those things, you don't get rewards or get out of jail free cards just because your a murderer but run a shipping company. And if the legal stuff is just a front for your other illegal business, then its a lie thats apart of the operation, and therefore apart of an active effort to subvert the law.

LaZodiac

2016-10-16, 01:05 AM

He made the illegal transactions in the club. That much is clear.

How deep it goes... well... probably much further.

I mean he's supposed to be some big bad along with the baddies, him and his two identical character reject body guards show up in the villain line up of the opening. They don't ever a do anything and they are far more polite with Yang when she shows up again (partly due to her violent tendencies) so I wouldn't say they're really all that bad. Maybe on Roman's level, which yes is bad to the degree of helping a maniac destroy the world, but I don't imagine he'd stay on that side if it started going bad for business.

Lethologica

2016-10-16, 02:15 AM

Metahuman1

2016-10-16, 04:19 AM

I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)

Because as presented by Zodi at the start of the line of conversation, Jr. does nothing bad ever at all period. Punching him out is literally the same as just walking down a random sidewalk and beating up random people on the same side walk as you cross paths with them, which is not viable.

As for beating the crap out of Jr., one viable possibility is that she's asserting dominance. Look at the Marvel Netflicks series, particularly Daredevil season 1 and Luke Cage. Look at the organized crime/gang characters. What do the lions share of them acknowledge/respect/fear/respond too? Especially at lower levels as opposed to the tops like Diamond Back/Fisk/what's-her-face-the-council-woman/Madam Gao/Noobu?

Violence. Effective violence. Willingness to use said effective violence. Power that is greater then themselves. Willingness to use that power. And a willingness and ability to use all of this to impose your will and desires on them.

It's how the higher level guys keep the lower level one's in check, on task, obedient, and motivated. because when dealing with that kind of person, it's what get's the job done. It's what get's results reliably. It's one of if not the only thing that does when it get's right down too it.

So she used the trick that has a documented real world history of working for millennia more often than not assuming you have the means to pull it off.

She clobbers all of them. She does it almost effortlessly, seeming to get a kick out of it the whole time. She does not kill them. She get's what she can of what she wanted, allowance being made since at the end of the day Jr. didn't actually know what she wanted to know, buys a drink, and patches them up and leaves.

And look how much less she had to do to get relevant information out of him the next time there paths crossed? He was snarky but compliant after she forced her way inside, and his men didn't even bother trying to fight her off this time.

And that's not even counting the fact that the shape of Jr. and his men post fight was meant to be an old style visual gage. You'd see it in Loony Toons or Vaudeville comedy acts a fair bit.

But take heart, at the rate the series is going as of end of last season, Yang will really be a full blown permanently mentally and emotionally broken psychopath with at least borderline sociopathy going on by the end of the show's run. *goes and cries in the corner over what could have been but probably won't cause we needed to be darker and edgier cause that never backfires #sarcasumsothickyoucancutitwithaknife.*

Rawhide

2016-10-16, 06:26 AM

I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)

Basically this:

Because as presented by Zodi at the start of the line of conversation, Jr. does nothing bad ever at all period. Punching him out is literally the same as just walking down a random sidewalk and beating up random people on the same side walk as you cross paths with them, which is not viable.

As for beating the crap out of Jr., one viable possibility is that she's asserting dominance. Look at the Marvel Netflicks series, particularly Daredevil season 1 and Luke Cage. Look at the organized crime/gang characters. What do the lions share of them acknowledge/respect/fear/respond too? Especially at lower levels as opposed to the tops like Diamond Back/Fisk/what's-her-face-the-council-woman/Madam Gao/Noobu?

Violence. Effective violence. Willingness to use said effective violence. Power that is greater then themselves. Willingness to use that power. And a willingness and ability to use all of this to impose your will and desires on them.

It's how the higher level guys keep the lower level one's in check, on task, obedient, and motivated. because when dealing with that kind of person, it's what get's the job done. It's what get's results reliably. It's one of if not the only thing that does when it get's right down too it.

So she used the trick that has a documented real world history of working for millennia more often than not assuming you have the means to pull it off.

She clobbers all of them. She does it almost effortlessly, seeming to get a kick out of it the whole time. She does not kill them. She get's what she can of what she wanted, allowance being made since at the end of the day Jr. didn't actually know what she wanted to know, buys a drink, and patches them up and leaves.

And look how much less she had to do to get relevant information out of him the next time there paths crossed? He was snarky but compliant after she forced her way inside, and his men didn't even bother trying to fight her off this time.

And that's not even counting the fact that the shape of Jr. and his men post fight was meant to be an old style visual gage. You'd see it in Loony Toons or Vaudeville comedy acts a fair bit.

Also, after what Yang did to extract information from Junior, do you really think he was going to let her out of there without a fight? Han Yang shot first.

Metahuman1

2016-10-16, 07:24 AM

Heck, he even told her she'd pay for that!

LaZodiac

2016-10-16, 09:37 AM

Heck, he even told her she'd pay for that!

Really? I don't remember that like...at all.

Rawhide

2016-10-16, 11:07 AM

Really? I don't remember that like...at all.

Yup, really. Right after she'd squeezed Junior for information.

Lethologica

2016-10-16, 12:27 PM

Basically this:

Also, after what Yang did to extract information from Junior, do you really think he was going to let her out of there without a fight? Han Yang shot first.
You saw a cool calculation to cultivate the criminal community for future information gathering? Gosh, that's really not the portrayal I saw.

And yes, after what Yang did, she could expect a fight. Which is why I say she visited the violence on them. It's not even like Junior had refused to provide information before Yang took a handful. That was her option #1.

Metahuman1

2016-10-16, 04:25 PM

Who said it had to be a cool calculation? When Fisk was going scary man mode or Diamond Back or Cotten Mouth were going full thug, did they strike you as cool and calculated? Sure didn't hit me that way.

It doesn't have to be cool and calculated. some people have a good instinct for that sort of thing. and some just have the benefit of experience and/or a little tutoring form a somewhat mystery shrouded uncle who comes across as someone who's been around shifty types and at least told story's in the past.

Lethologica

2016-10-16, 04:54 PM

I don't regard the dominance assertion as 'good' by any meaning of the term, whether instinct or calculation or whatever you choose to call it. She came in and started an unnecessary and pointless fight at the first opportunity and didn't get a single step closer to her goal. That's not morally good (though it's not clearly morally bad), and it's not competent underworld navigation, and it's not good for her search. That this conveniently became relevant a season and a half down the line doesn't change the approach taken in the trailer.

Rawhide

2016-10-16, 05:44 PM

You saw a cool calculation to cultivate the criminal community for future information gathering?

No. Neither of us said that.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-16, 06:40 PM

You saw a cool calculation to cultivate the criminal community for future information gathering? Gosh, that's really not the portrayal I saw.

Well no, but it doesn't take book smarts and lots of fancy education and masterminding to do this stuff-only street smarts and the pragmatism to go through with it. Just because Yang isn't a nerd, doesn't mean she can't be smart or have methods of info gathering that aren't what introverted analytical people would think of. If she developed her charm more she could've probably got what she wanted without a single fist thrown by just sweet-talking them, but then when she came around again, they'd assume her weak and she would've had to do the sweet talking routine all over again instead of cutting to the chase, or have to beat them up THEN.

Metahuman1

2016-10-16, 06:47 PM

Precisely. One short brawl, a few Band-Aids and bruises needed afterword's, and now, whenever she comes to see Jr. for info, his goons will just get the hell out of her path, and he will just cough up what he knows with only minor verbal prodding. Possibly for the rest of there mutual lifespans and if not then certainly for years to come.

And as icing on the cake, she can make it clear to him that this stays between them, which he'd likely honor, cause huntress or not, it's in his own best interest not to admit he got owned along with his whole crew by a 17 year old girl half his size, and certainly not that she can get info form him whenever the urge hits her cause he doesn't want her to break him permanently next time.

And it benefits her to do this cause this way, she can get information quietly after this one incident for long time to come. Always good to not let others know what Intel you might have.

And good doesn't always mean shining paladin morality. Good can also mean skillful, or just flat effective or beneficial. Thus, good.

Hiro Protagonest

2016-10-16, 06:59 PM

And good doesn't always mean shining paladin morality. Good can also mean skillful, or just flat effective

Those are... also two separate definitions of the word.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-16, 09:49 PM

Those are... also two separate definitions of the word.

Yeah, but still not everyone is a paladin. Han Solo smuggled stuff. Marvel Superheroes do jerkish stuff all the time yet still work towards the overall good over their own squabbles at the end of the day. Harry Dresden probably has a nonzero LOVE count...

heck, Batman has more than once shown to drop criminals off of buildings as an interrogation tactic, awfully risky for Mr. "No Killing". and busting into criminal hideouts, beating up people there and demanding his information without any warning.

if we discounted every single hero that did something illegal and would probably get them arrested or worse in real life, the list of heroes would be very narrow indeed.

Lethologica

2016-10-16, 11:54 PM

No. Neither of us said that.
Fine, my mistake. Please present the part you would like me to address and I will do my best.

Well no, but it doesn't take book smarts and lots of fancy education and masterminding to do this stuff-only street smarts and the pragmatism to go through with it. Just because Yang isn't a nerd, doesn't mean she can't be smart or have methods of info gathering that aren't what introverted analytical people would think of. If she developed her charm more she could've probably got what she wanted without a single fist thrown by just sweet-talking them, but then when she came around again, they'd assume her weak and she would've had to do the sweet talking routine all over again instead of cutting to the chase, or have to beat them up THEN.

Precisely. One short brawl, a few Band-Aids and bruises needed afterword's, and now, whenever she comes to see Jr. for info, his goons will just get the hell out of her path, and he will just cough up what he knows with only minor verbal prodding. Possibly for the rest of there mutual lifespans and if not then certainly for years to come.

And as icing on the cake, she can make it clear to him that this stays between them, which he'd likely honor, cause huntress or not, it's in his own best interest not to admit he got owned along with his whole crew by a 17 year old girl half his size, and certainly not that she can get info form him whenever the urge hits her cause he doesn't want her to break him permanently next time.

And it benefits her to do this cause this way, she can get information quietly after this one incident for long time to come. Always good to not let others know what Intel you might have.

And good doesn't always mean shining paladin morality. Good can also mean skillful, or just flat effective or beneficial. Thus, good.
In turn, I can see I'm not making myself clear, because somehow I came across as condescending to Yang's intelligence or learning or something, which was not my intent at all. I'll try again.

What you've described are benefits. Benefits are nice. They can be exploited down the line if it becomes relevant.

But benefits are not the same as purpose. For purpose there has to be direction towards a goal. Making Junior a long-term contact for future interrogations is not directly related to a goal Yang is portrayed as having. It is a side benefit, and not one she clearly wants, let alone aims for.

The only goal clearly portrayed in the trailer is that Yang wants to find out what Junior knows about Raven.

Yang's dominance display accomplishes one thing in this regard: it makes Junior immediately admit to not knowing anything about Raven. It's not clear a dominance display is necessary for this, because Yang makes that her #1 tactic. Moreover, it hampers her efforts by precluding follow-up questions, and has what most people would consider a large collateral cost in terms of fighting. If Yang were simply advancing her most obvious goal, she would not lead off with aggression and escalate at every turn before even exhausting her source.

The next most direct portrayal of anything resembling a goal is Yang's enjoyment of fighting. This is a consistent and foundational character trait. That is why I claim that Yang wanted the fight for its own sake: it's the most direct relationship to her character and goals, and there doesn't seem to be a strong alternative candidate portrayed in the trailer.

I keep harping on "portrayed in the trailer" because there's a substantial difference between a reason we can tell a story about and a reason that's in the story actually told.

So what purpose does the fight serve, if it is not an end in itself? What goal does it advance? How is that goal portrayed in the trailer? That is how I approach this conversation.

Rawhide

2016-10-17, 12:35 AM

First, let me make clear that this discussion originally started to dispute a single point that LaZodiac made, that Junior was a Legitimate Businessman™. It was not about Yang, or whether she was legally, morally, or "for the greater good" permitted in taking any of those actions. For the record, other than legally (almost certainly not), I don't think there is any one correct answer there, and philosophers could debate it for ages with no conclusion.

But, moving on to what this discussion has become...

The problem with this debate, is that we cannot actually know most of what is relevant to know to make an argument one way or the other. We can assume and extrapolate, but we cannot know with the limited information provided.

What we know:
Yang knew who Junior was, what his nickname was, and what he looked like.
Yang knew that Junior has information, and believed he might hold information relevant to her inquiries.

What we can assume and extrapolate from this, and how Yang acted around him:
Yang has probably been questioning various underground members for a while to suss out this information.
Yang has likely needed to use intimidation tactics to get this information more than once.
Yang has "done her research" and knows that Junior is unlikely to provide any information without being intimidated first.

Lethologica

2016-10-17, 01:05 AM

First, let me make clear that this discussion originally started to dispute a single point that LaZodiac made, that Junior was a Legitimate Businessman™.
The scope of the discussion is not solely defined by post 186 of the thread. You're the only person in the discussion whose initial response to LaZodiac's point was limited to the legitimacy of Junior's business dealings, let alone the followup replies. And since the discussion originated with the question of whether Yang looking psychotic makes sense, the current continuation is entirely within the original topic, and is indeed more substantially relevant to that topic than Junior's legitimacy.

The problem with this debate, is that we cannot actually know most of what is relevant to know to make an argument one way or the other. We can assume and extrapolate, but we cannot know with the limited information provided.

What we know:
Yang knew who Junior was, what his nickname was, and what he looked like.
Yang knew that Junior has information, and believed he might hold information relevant to her inquiries.

What we can assume and extrapolate from this, and how Yang acted around him:
Yang has probably been questioning various underground members for a while to suss out this information.
Yang has likely needed to use intimidation tactics to get this information more than once.
Yang has "done her research" and knows that Junior is unlikely to provide any information without being intimidated first.
Thank you. This is a useful case. I believe this is a reasonable interpretation of Yang's actions. I think the last statement is pretty questionable, though, and it's terribly awkward of the trailer to force us to make that speculation, when it would be the work of a moment to make it entirely unnecessary.

Rawhide

2016-10-17, 04:20 AM

The scope of the discussion is not solely defined by post 186 of the thread.

Excuse me? Please point to the part of my post which stated anything even close to this.

You're the only person in the discussion whose initial response to LaZodiac's point was limited to the legitimacy of Junior's business dealings, let alone the followup replies.

My post, and the replies to it, were almost solely about the legitimacy of Junior's business right up until this post:

I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)

Your post above was the first post which diverged the then current discussion point (and your post was in reply to the then current discussion point), which is one of the reasons I was making it clear why this particular discussion started in the first place before addressing the points you raised separately.

And since the discussion originated with the question of whether Yang looking psychotic makes sense, the current continuation is entirely within the original topic, and is indeed more substantially relevant to that topic than Junior's legitimacy.

It's entirely relevant within this thread. It was not at all relevant within the context of what we were discussing at the time, but that's ok, conversations evolve — I was simply making a clear distinction between the two to avoid confusion.

Thank you. This is a useful case. I believe this is a reasonable interpretation of Yang's actions. I think the last statement is pretty questionable, though, and it's terribly awkward of the trailer to force us to make that speculation, when it would be the work of a moment to make it entirely unnecessary.

I disagree on your last point. The trailer works quite well on its own, it doesn't need to be any longer. We're more than capable of filling in the gaps without needing to have our hands held.

Lethologica

2016-10-17, 11:26 AM

Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply note that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute (Junior as "legitimate businessman"), while literally everyone else continued to talk about the violence Yang inflicted and whether or not it made her look psychotic, along with Junior's characterization. Go back and do a ctrl-f for"Yang" and "psychotic" and "killed" and "violence" if you don't believe me.

As for hand-holding, I suppose I disagree with you on what constitutes hand-holding and what constitutes reasonable use of revealed detail for storytelling. I suspect further conversation along that line will simply turn defensive, because either I'll attack your characterization of the last statement as reasonable, or I'll present my own alternative treatment of that bit of trailer and you or someone else will attack it as time-wasting or hand-holding or whatever. So I'll give that a pass.

After all that, though, what are we left with? A woman who by your own telling goes around the local gangs picking fights and putting dozens or hundreds of people in slings or casts for at best marginal progress towards her goal of finding a single person. I mean, it ain't Deadpool, but...

Rawhide

2016-10-17, 11:54 AM

Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply nor that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute, and nobody else's did. Go back and do a ctrl-f for"Yang" and "psychotic" and "killed" and "violence" if you don't believe me.

Prior to making my above post, I reread every post between the two mentioned in full.

---

EDIT:

Rather than quote the majority of the last page at you, I will simply note that your reply isolated a single part of 185 for dispute (Junior as "legitimate businessman")

Correct.

while literally everyone else continued to talk about the violence Yang inflicted and whether or not it made her look psychotic, along with Junior's characterization.

Incorrect.

---

As for hand-holding, I suppose I disagree with you on what constitutes hand-holding and what constitutes reasonable use of orchestrated detail for storytelling.

The best stories I know don't explain everything. The detail you're asking for is superfluous to the trailer's intent (which you yourself have explained), and would likely just bog down the trailer unnecessarily.

After all that, though, what are we left with? A woman who by your own telling goes around the local gangs picking fights and putting dozens or hundreds of people in slings or casts for at best marginal progress towards her goal of finding a single person. I mean, it ain't Deadpool, but...

I fail to see your point here. If you're trying to assert that Yang's tactics were morally questionable, I don't see anyone who has argued against that. Indeed, someone has already drawn a parallel to the morally questionable tactics of Batman who, against the law goes around beating up criminals in pursuit of his own ideals.

I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.

LaZodiac

2016-10-17, 12:02 PM

I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.

Maybe I'm just using too strong a word. Yang's got a sort of dead eye stare in the manga when she's using her angry power. Maybe she's just really into violenceing people. That being psychopathy or not is for you to decide.

Lethologica

2016-10-17, 01:40 PM

Prior to making my above post, I reread every post between the two mentioned in full.

---

EDIT:

Correct.

Incorrect.
:sigh:
Well, here we go, then.

After some discussion of the crazy-looking expressions used in the manga, LaZodiac made a comment about how Yang's crazy expression makes sense since her semblance is "flipping the hell out," which prompted a discussion about Yang's craziness, including the following posts:

I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

And that's fair, your opinion is yours. :smallsmile:

Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.

Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

Yeah, to each their own/

To clarify, all the series does is present her as a normal girl, who when she actually battles seriously, gets this dead eye star that goes a thousand miles, and smiles widely in a way that looks just a bit too wide. They show us her backstory, but they don't say confirmed 100% that she's broken. Her nerves could be from the fact that she's damaged inside, or just because she's nervous, or both. They show her hugging her comfort blanket esque cap when she's allowed to attach it to her uniform so your guess is as good as mine. The point is they raise a question.

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.

I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.

Hint hint....somebody who has connections to underground stuff, mooks with things like rocket-hammers, two female fighters who don't seem particularly connected to the Huntresses, is supposed to be a place where you go for shady info, which Yang says is on the bad side of town.....probably not all that legit. and considering Ruby's reaction to all this is on the lines of "hey sis!" as she walks out....doesn't seem all that abnormal for Yang.

I think Yang is just supposed to be the Han Solo to Ruby's Luke, while also being a protagonist who enjoys a fight. if thats psychotic, then most action anime protagonists are psychotic as well.

Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.

There was once a man with the heart of a sweet innocent child, but with the face of a raging demon. This is his story, his Angel Densetsu.

My exaggeration aside the manga does show Junior and his buddies in bandages, and we have no reason to assume any of those mooks had aura given Jaune didn't have it and they were wielding axes that had "weapon" written on them as opposed to any actual weapons. She at least HURT them. It was definitely unprovoked violence and that was my point.
(Extra special emphasis above)
(In response to the above, you said...)

Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

Junior is not a legitimate businessman. The club is nothing but a front, and it's clear that illegal transactions were taking place between Junior and his clients in Junior's club, that makes the business itself illegitimate (so you can't even claim the business was a legitimate arm, even if everything else he did wasn't - before you factor in that he is almost certainly laundering the money from his other side projects through the club).

This.
I don't know if this last post counts--I'm guessing the last bolded remark may have been targeted at something other than Yang's unprovoked violence and the resulting injuries, since you go on to talk about Junior's business...which makes your quoting practices a little weird, but I'll let that lie.

Then there's an interlude of six posts talking about illegality before I swing the discussion back to Yang's unprovoked violence. And replies to my post make clear that the discussion of illegality was being viewed in the context of Yang's violence and mentality.

Approximately fourteen posts after that, you start trying to clarify the limits of the "original" discussion, for whatever reason.

I don't know where you're placing the beginning, to make that claim, but to me there's only a small part of the discussion that focused solely on Junior's businesses, and a large part that focused on Junior's businesses and Yang's violence as part of a broader discussion about Yang's mentality. And while I don't know why you even care about representing this discussion as tangential or "evolutionary", I do know I don't appreciate the revisionism.

The best stories I know don't explain everything. The detail you're asking for is superfluous to the trailer's intent (which you yourself have explained), and would likely just bog down the trailer unnecessarily.
I wasn't suggesting that stories should explain everything--please don't misrepresent me for your convenience--and I was presenting a cynically reductive version of the trailer's intent. A more complete description would be that it's about fighting and introducing important facets of Yang's character and goals, and the detail I'm asking for is by no means superfluous to that, because the first impression of Yang as someone who uses violence as a first option is by no means a minor point.

I fail to see your point here. If you're trying to assert that Yang's tactics were morally questionable, I don't see anyone who has argued against that. Indeed, someone has already drawn a parallel to the morally questionable tactics of Batman who, against the law goes around beating up criminals in pursuit of his own ideals.

I will dispute LaZodiac's interpretation of psychopathy (that's either something she's seeing into the characters because she wants to, or poor design of the manga), but not the above.
Essays and essays and essays have been written about how nuts Batman is in many portrayals. If anything, the comparison strengthens LaZodiac's point.

Separately, my own points of dispute with commenters like yourself, Lord Raziere, and Metahuman1 have mostly been about the rationale for Yang's violence.

My position, in summary, is this: Yang engages in a lot of unprovoked violence, the progress she makes is marginal, the benefits others have argued for are tangential, and her goal is insufficient justification, suggesting that a substantial part of her behavior is due to an unhealthy enjoyment of violence.

Others have argued that the violence is necessary in this environment, and that the benefits are large. At last check, the most recent argument for necessity is that we can extrapolate that violence must have been necessary because Yang used it, which isn't really something I can argue productively, especially when my criticism of that argument is passed off as a desire for hand-holding and stories that explain everything. Meanwhile, the most recent argument for benefits is that Yang gets to come by and ask Junior things whenever she wants, which I argued wasn't substantially related to her goals.

That's the debate surrounding my claims, as I understand it. Your understanding may be different, and that's something we can discuss.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-17, 02:12 PM

Maybe I'm just using too strong a word. Yang's got a sort of dead eye stare in the manga when she's using her angry power. Maybe she's just really into violenceing people. That being psychopathy or not is for you to decide.

...I just figured the manga is using alternate characterization to be perfectly honest. I've got nothing against that either, but it does make me wonder where the show and the manga diverge from one another and if its intentional or just a result of art style.

For example, how would Ruby being a more blood knight type character change the events of the story? Does Yang being a psychopath change her character arc and if so, how?

Heck, there are entire sections of fan fics dedicated to 'what if' type scenarios and I like to think about such things! Just trying to figure out if the manga is doing that, if the mangaka for RWBY is changing things because he/she is viewing the show through a different cultural lens and drawing different conclusions than we are or just trying to provide a different experience. Its fun stuff!

EDIT: ...Huh, apparently it was announced that the manga contains canon events and whatnot. So...does that mean the explanation for the Armored Knight that Weiss fought is canon? Cause I like that tidbit. And also that RWBY may be getting a traditionally 2D animated series. Huh.

Rawhide

2016-10-17, 02:56 PM

Replies in blue.

:sigh:
Well, here we go, then.

After some discussion of the crazy-looking expressions used in the manga, LaZodiac made a comment about how Yang's crazy expression makes sense since her semblance is "flipping the hell out," which prompted a discussion about Yang's craziness, including the following posts:

I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

And that's fair, your opinion is yours. :smallsmile:

Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.

Before.

Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

Yeah, to each their own/

To clarify, all the series does is present her as a normal girl, who when she actually battles seriously, gets this dead eye star that goes a thousand miles, and smiles widely in a way that looks just a bit too wide. They show us her backstory, but they don't say confirmed 100% that she's broken. Her nerves could be from the fact that she's damaged inside, or just because she's nervous, or both. They show her hugging her comfort blanket esque cap when she's allowed to attach it to her uniform so your guess is as good as mine. The point is they raise a question.

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.

Before.

You'll note I quoted only "Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman" in my reply.

I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.

Irrelevant. LaZodiac is just reinforcing that Yang allegedly beat up a poor legitimate businessman.

Hint hint....somebody who has connections to underground stuff, mooks with things like rocket-hammers, two female fighters who don't seem particularly connected to the Huntresses, is supposed to be a place where you go for shady info, which Yang says is on the bad side of town.....probably not all that legit. and considering Ruby's reaction to all this is on the lines of "hey sis!" as she walks out....doesn't seem all that abnormal for Yang.

I think Yang is just supposed to be the Han Solo to Ruby's Luke, while also being a protagonist who enjoys a fight. if thats psychotic, then most action anime protagonists are psychotic as well.

One single passing mention, in a seperate paragraph, which was not replied to.

Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.

Your point? Your post here is about whether she killed people or not, not mentioning anything about whether she's psychotic.

There was once a man with the heart of a sweet innocent child, but with the face of a raging demon. This is his story, his Angel Densetsu.

My exaggeration aside the manga does show Junior and his buddies in bandages, and we have no reason to assume any of those mooks had aura given Jaune didn't have it and they were wielding axes that had "weapon" written on them as opposed to any actual weapons. She at least HURT them. It was definitely unprovoked violence and that was my point.
(Extra special emphasis above)
(In response to the above, you said...)

As above.

Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

Junior is not a legitimate businessman. The club is nothing but a front, and it's clear that illegal transactions were taking place between Junior and his clients in Junior's club, that makes the business itself illegitimate (so you can't even claim the business was a legitimate arm, even if everything else he did wasn't - before you factor in that he is almost certainly laundering the money from his other side projects through the club).

This.
I don't know if this last post counts--I'm guessing the last bolded remark may have been targeted at something other than Yang's unprovoked violence and the resulting injuries, since you go on to talk about Junior's business...which makes your quoting practices a little weird, but I'll let that lie.

Ok, I can see your confusion here. I quoted the wrong post in my reply. Fixed.

Then there's an interlude of six posts talking about illegality before I swing the discussion back to Yang's unprovoked violence. And replies to my post make clear that the discussion of illegality was being viewed in the context of Yang's violence and mentality.

You didn't just "swing" it back. You specifically said "I don't understand why the legality is important here." It's important because LaZodiac made a claim which was incorrect and unfounded. That part of the discussion was solely about whether the business was legal or not, it had absolutely zero impact on any other discussion about psychotic-ness.

Approximately fourteen posts after that, you start trying to clarify the limits of the "original" discussion, for whatever reason.

Because you were the one who stated "I don't understand why the legality is important here." which implied that you thought the two were related, and I wanted to be absolutely clear on distinguishing the two discussions from each other to prevent any ongoing confusion.

I don't know where you're placing the beginning, to make that claim, but to me there's only a small part of the discussion that focused solely on Junior's businesses, and a large part that focused on Junior's businesses and Yang's violence as part of a broader discussion about Yang's mentality. And while I don't know why you even care about representing this discussion as tangential or "evolutionary", I do know I don't appreciate the revisionism.

There is no revisionism. The discussion about the legality of the business, which lasted a considerable amount of posts, had nothing to do with any discussion about psychotic-ness.

---

I wasn't suggesting that stories should explain everything--please don't misrepresent me for your convenience--and I was presenting a cynically reductive version of the trailer's intent. A more complete description would be that it's about fighting and introducing important facets of Yang's character and goals, and the detail I'm asking for is by no means superfluous to that, because the first impression of Yang as someone who uses violence as a first option is by no means a minor point.

I wasn't misrepresenting you, I was stating a fact to reinforce my point. Many of the best stories leave vast amounts of details out for the viewer to interpret. And I disagree completely on these details being important for the trailer, we already get those important traits from the trailer as it stands. In fact, in many cases, it's better that the specific details be left out, so that viewers can develop theories and discuss the possibilities. We don't need these specific details, and I propose that the trailer is better off without trying to shoehorn them in.

Essays
Batman

I'm not as well versed in all the iterations of Batman as you are. Suffice it to say that the versions I know use minimal force where they deem it absolutely necessary (and frequently break the law in other ways). They are most definitely not psychotic.

That said, however, most of these versions are still definitely bad for the city, leaving it worse off than if Bruce Wayne had just used his vast fortunes to improve the city rather than play dress up.

We should not get into a debate about whether the ends justify the means, and nothing I have said should be taken to represent expressing a view one way or the other.

Lethologica

2016-10-17, 03:53 PM

If that's your view of the discussion and of my claims, I really don't think we're going to get anywhere. So I'll leave off here unless any of the other participants wish to respond to my earlier comments.

LaZodiac

2016-10-17, 04:08 PM

All I know is that in my home town, a business that has a lot of backroom illegal gambling and other nasty stuff burnt down recently, and I did feel a little bad because hey, ignoring the crime, he was trying to run an actual business as well. That's my point.

Anyway Roosterteeth a seasons 1 through 3 retrospective and it's really reminded me how little has happened in the grand scheme of things.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-17, 04:18 PM

Anyway Roosterteeth a seasons 1 through 3 retrospective and it's really reminded me how little has happened in the grand scheme of things.

You aren't wrong on that one.

Season 1 had...

The Entrance Exam
The Jaundice episodes
and Foiling the Robbery at the Docks.

Season 2 had...

Investigation into the White Fang
The Dance
Mountain Glenn

while Season 3 had...

Vytal Tournament
Battle of Beacon
The Fall Maiden (which was woven into the two prior events)

I mean...I'm generalizing a little bit because there's lots more little things that happen between the big ones, but if we're going off the really big plot events there isn't too many. I don't mind though, it gives the events time to breath. I think the only one I really had a problem with was...the investigation into the White Fang. It was wrapped up real fast and I think they could have done more with it.

Metahuman1

2016-10-17, 04:44 PM

For example, how would Ruby being a more blood knight type character change the events of the story? Does Yang being a psychopath change her character arc and if so, how?

By and large it makes most of Yangs characterization only possible if she's faking it with a freaking will. All the time. This doesn't work so well given what all we've been shown.

As for Ruby, yes, it changes things alright. She'd have been armed when she crossed paths with Mercury right before Phyrra and Penny went at it in the tournament (blood knight types are typically LOATHED to allow themselves to be made unready for combat under any circumstances.), which could very well have given her the edge she needed to get clear of him and stop Penny dieing, and all that would have come with it.

No dead Penny.

Likely less negativity initially meaning the grim attack would have needed more time to get steam. Meaning it was more likely they'd be able to get Phyrra more protection during the transfer. Meaning it was more likely to succeed. And if it succeeded, no dead Phyrra and likely no fall of Becon and Vale.

Possibly no rape-light with Adam and Blake, or at the very least, Yang having enough back up to NOT loose her arm when the calvary arrived.

Ya know, a though crosses my mind. They made a big deal about how lonely the Maiden's path was and how much it would disconnect Phyrra form people she cared about. And the name, Maiden, that word use to be used to describe virgins. I wonder if that's part of the deal? To hold the powers you have to be a Virgin and you have to remain as such to keep hold of the power?

Would explain that part of it anyway. Though, if it's not, then yeah, I kinda want to slap the damn writers cause then that dialog is there for literally no other reason then a thinly disguised excuse for the writers to keep Phyrra form taking on the powers while there's still time and subsequently preventing Cinder getting access to them, that has no actual merit in universe.

Calemyr

2016-10-17, 05:09 PM

The way I read the dialogue in volume 3, it was more about forcing another person's Aura into you. What they were proposing wasn't a typical inheritance, but trying to cheat that inheritance by shoving the Fall Maiden's lingering Aura into her. Pyrrha wouldn't have just been Super Maiden Pyrrha, she'd be an unholy fusion of herself and what remains of the proper Fall Maiden. That's... not something anyone can predict the outcome of. It could be a super-powered Pyrrha, it could be a rejuvenated Amber with a fetching new ponytail, it could be an identity-less woman caught in the middle of a war between the native soul and the invader, it could be something fresh and new, with memories of both lives but no actual investment in either, or it could be a something in between any of them. To top it off, Pyrrha knew that, even in the best case, where she remained herself with full control of a Maiden's powers, she would still lose everything important to her. She would become the target of a group that was responsible for incredibly ruthless tactics. She would become the primary weapon of a secret society. And she would have to leave everyone she'd come to love in Beacon without ever telling them why. And she still chose to try.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-17, 05:12 PM

Ya know, a though crosses my mind. They made a big deal about how lonely the Maiden's path was and how much it would disconnect Phyrra form people she cared about. And the name, Maiden, that word use to be used to describe virgins. I wonder if that's part of the deal? To hold the powers you have to be a Virgin and you have to remain as such to keep hold of the power?

Would explain that part of it anyway. Though, if it's not, then yeah, I kinda want to slap the damn writers cause then that dialog is there for literally no other reason then a thinly disguised excuse for the writers to keep Phyrra form taking on the powers while there's still time and subsequently preventing Cinder getting access to them, that has no actual merit in universe.

I think they were talking about how Pyrrha would, by nature of the fact she would need to keep the fact she's the Maiden a secret, need to severe the very same close personal bonds she had finally managed to form in order to keep that secret. That same isolation would also extend to the rest of her life, she would have to seclude herself from others so they wouldn't discover the secret or, worse, try to take the powers from her.

And to be fair, cause I've seen this thrown around a lot, Pyrrha hesitates from accepting the Fall Maiden's powers for a lot of reasons. A very large part of it is because they have absolutely no idea if the transfer will even work, let alone if she would survive if it worked or not. And if it did, they don't know what would happen to Pyrrha in the process...would she still be Pyrrha? Would she be Amber? Would she be some amalgamation of the two? Could something worse happen from messing around with cramming someone's soul into someone else? And if there is the best case scenario where Pyrrha survives the transfer, gets half the Fall Maiden's powers, and is still 'Pyrrha', she would still be giving up the life she had before to become the Fall Maiden.

Worst case scenario? Not only does the transfer NOT work, but it kills Pyrrha and possibly Amber as well, resulting in the powers going to Cinder most likely.

No, Pyrrha has a great many of valid concerns and problems she had to consider before accepting the Fall Maiden transfer and, up until the situation with Penny, was under the impression that she actually had time to think about it. To come to a conclusion based on what she wanted rather than what she felt the world needed because her life was very much at stake.

Not even specifically you Meta, but opinions I've seen elsewhere and in Let's Watch's where Pyrrha should have just jumped into the pod and taken the transfer to become the Fall Maiden...cause people either missed or where ignoring the fact that they, in character, had absolutely no idea what would happen when they attempted the transfer and were understandably leery about such a decision but were backed into the corner on the matter.

EDIT:...I take too long to reply to stuff.

Hiro Protagonest

2016-10-17, 05:37 PM

I don't mind though, it gives the events time to breath.

And is filled with half-baked jokes and weak dialogue.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-17, 05:43 PM

And is filled with half-baked jokes and weak dialogue.

Both subjective. RWBY makes me laugh and while the dialogue may not be complex, the performances are compelling.

But hey, if you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it.

Hiro Protagonest

2016-10-17, 06:12 PM

Both subjective. RWBY makes me laugh and while the dialogue may not be complex, the performances are compelling.

I have to watch most of this show muted. I cannot stand the sound of Weiss' voice, and generally, Pyrrha's isn't good either. But it's not the voices that are the problem. My experience with what I mute and what I don't has shown me that it's the dialogue, that I have an easier time reading subtitles (or in RWBY's case, just missing it completely) than listening to someone actually say poor dialogue.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-17, 11:20 PM

I have to watch most of this show muted. I cannot stand the sound of Weiss' voice, and generally, Pyrrha's isn't good either. But it's not the voices that are the problem. My experience with what I mute and what I don't has shown me that it's the dialogue, that I have an easier time reading subtitles (or in RWBY's case, just missing it completely) than listening to someone actually say poor dialogue.

Alright..that's...strange. If I had to watch a show muted I'd probably not watch it at all to be honest, its just not the same experience.

So...if you're watching it muted and reading subtitles, or if I gather correctly from what else you said missing them entirely, why do you watch? It can't be the soundtrack, cause you aren't listening to that. Its not the dialogue. Its not the story, I'm guessing. So...why do you watch? Why do you watch a show you are not getting the full experience of then go online to run it down?

No judgement, just curious about the answer!

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 12:40 PM

Dasgovernator

2016-10-18, 01:32 PM

Oh hey speaking of whatever, new World of Remnant is out. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeDHJDGbGBM&feature=em-uploademail)

Apparently coastlines that are shallow protect against all the underwater Grimm that exist? That doesn't really make sense.

Also, we finally get to learn what Menagerie. It's not some kind of Faunus ghetto like the name suggests, it's literally an entire island where Faunus live. Reminder that the word Menagerie means "a collection of wild animals kept in captivity for exhibition". Subtle.

And as always, a little spicy "oh but bad things are REALLY gonna happen" teasing from Qrowe, because they sure do love talking about how bad things will happen. Not so much on the showing this off, though.

I think they mean that the relatively shallow waters means that no Godzilla-style Grimm can sneak up on them. In a world where Airships seem to be the major form of transportation, Sea-bound Grimm are probably less of a concern than they would be in real life.

Also, Menagerie is Remnant-Australia. In Vol 3 we got a still shot of some Faunuses (and only Faunuses) watching the Tournament in what looked like an Outback setting. I'm wondering if Velvet's from there, given her noticeable accent compared to the whole rest of the cast.

Also, it seems like Vale is the "normal" Kingdom, from which the other 3 will be compared to.

Lethologica

2016-10-18, 01:39 PM

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 02:06 PM

Not so much on showing off bad things happening? Are you actually caught up? :smalltongue:

Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.

Okay so the attack of beacon is a legit and actual dark thing. Penny died, Yang got disarmed, Roman got killed. Presumably numerous others got horribly murdered. It's bad.

But I'm really tired of people trying to be ominous in this series it just doesn't work.

Dasgovernator

2016-10-18, 04:16 PM

Not so much on showing off bad things happening? Are you actually caught up? :smalltongue:

Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.

(out of spoilers since it has nothing to do with the WOR)

The Menagerie people = British is just speculation on my part, mostly because I'm pretty sure Velvet is the only one in the entire show who speaks with something other than a generic American accent, and Menagerie seems like it would be the most isolated place in all of Remnant. Though if Beacon was essentially her first experience with Humans, it might explain why she let Team Bully walk all over her in Vol 1 when just about every other Faunus seen so far would have either laughed at them or punched them through a wall.

CrazyPenguin

2016-10-18, 04:20 PM

Also, if Menagerie's distinct characteristic is being British prairie land, I will be extremely confused.

Velvet has an Australian accent, not an English one. If that's where you got the "British" part from. So its not British prairie land, its just straight-up Australia.

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 04:37 PM

I really, REALLY hope they don't make the racism token characters into also the Australian characters. The context of "all of these people are collectively our message about racism" and "also they're based on the colony of criminals England sent away for punishment" doesn't jell well with me at all.

Basically, I hope it's not something as obvious as this, because Rooster Teeth will attack it with all the subtly of Nora's hammer.

Lethologica

2016-10-18, 04:39 PM

Velvet has an Australian accent, not an English one. If that's where you got the "British" part from. So its not British prairie land, its just straight-up Australia.
Ah, there we go. I haven't heard enough female Australian-accented voices to make the distinction with British accents.

Metahuman1

2016-10-18, 07:56 PM

Okay so the attack of beacon is a legit and actual dark thing. Penny died, Yang got disarmed, Roman got killed. Presumably numerous others got horribly murdered. It's bad.

But I'm really tired of people trying to be ominous in this series it just doesn't work.

No, no, it works. See, you could argue it didn't when they were ominous and then nothing much happened. Or at least nothing meaningfully bad or with those lasting consequences you wanted.

But now, incredibly bad to the level of "the end of all sapient none Grim races appears to have finally begun." things have happened on screen. Major characters with names, ongoing subplots and fan support have been straight up maimed or killed on screen in horrific fashions. 2 out of 4 of humanity's strong holds have, for all practical intentions and purposes, fallen, and we might or might not have 2 super evil Demi-goddesses running around, or at the very least we have 1 that no one even knows to look out for yet.

So, you can't really say that it doesn't work. They were ominous, and then that happened. And it's still happening, every day, in setting. Ominous works just fine, and it's gonna take a LOT to change that at this point.

Callos_DeTerran: Fair enough, I had forgotten the point about "we don't know if the transfer will actually work or work as intended.". I just remembered "Oh, it's a lonely road." and the though crossed my mind about the term Maiden. And I thought to myself that it would be the sort of grim darkness for it's own sake thing I'd expect someone trying to go that route to do. "Yup, as it turns out, she died cause she hesitated cause she was worried about never getting the guy."

Possibly done in the tackiest possible fashion to try setting up making Juan look better.

Yeah, I'm gonna watch season 4, but I'm not holding out much hope for it at this point. I'll be legitimately surprised if they can corse correct after season 3's ending.

... ... ...

Well that's an awful idea.

What if Jaun wearing not just a dress but a pink dress, being close to and trained by and possibly interested in Phyrra, and the tag line about having 7 sisters to explain him knowing how to do stuff like dance that would, at one time, have been considered classically feminine, be foreshadowing for Jaun to actually be eligible in some peculiar manner to acquire Maiden powers, possibly in the form of the spring Maiden.

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 08:10 PM

What if Jaun wearing not just a dress but a pink dress, being close to and trained by and possibly interested in Phyrra, and the tag line about having 7 sisters to explain him knowing how to do stuff like dance that would, at one time, have been considered classically feminine, be foreshadowing for Jaun to actually be eligible in some peculiar manner to acquire Maiden powers, possibly in the form of the spring Maiden.

Concerning the ominousness stuff, maybe Qrowe's voice actor just doesn't do it for me. I'll accept that this is clearly just my bias kicking in.

As for your other point, no. Let's not have that happen. I can definitely see them PRETENDING to try this and then for some god awful reason maybe make Jaune trans or something, which...no. Don't do this. Not like this. Please no.

That being said I forgot Jaune had seven sisters. I kind of want them to be a quirky miniboss squad at some point. If Pyrrha was alive she could fight them for the right to have their brother and it'd actually be sort of compelling to me? I don't know I just like the idea that all of Jaune's sisters are badass.

Metahuman1

2016-10-18, 08:32 PM

Oh, I didn't say it would be a GOOD idea. In fact I said I didn't like the idea. But I could see them doing it. Hell, if they pursue Silver Eyes being on par with Maiden Powers and a separate thing, they could even have Ruby just use Silver eyes, the other three title characters get Maiden Powers, and Jaun get Spring Maiden to keep him in pace with the A team.

Yup. Almost like killing characters means that it cuts off major story options for them or something. :smallsigh:

Could have had a somewhat compelling and entertaining subplot, but instead, DARK AND EDGY! ANGST! CONSEQUENCES! Not like we'd had 2 major characters killed, a title character maimed, another functionally raped and certainly beaten by her ex who's also a major former trusted authority figure while she was a minor, there entire home lost, a tone of other people killed in terms of civilians and the like, and at the time they killed Phyrra the heavy implication we'd killed one more major character who was the closest thing the group had to a trump card, by the time we got to killing Phyrra off already.

Oh. Wait.

Personal irritation with that point aside.

I like the idea that there all rather formidable. Go a half step further. Make them all older siblings. Might help explain why he never really got to learn to fight properly (by in universe standards.). He had 7 older siblings protecting him all the time. Which is nice and all, but the down side is that it will hamper your ability to learn to fight your own battles by yourself. Particularly if as the youngest, your the one your parent or parents are overly protective of, and insist your siblings go out of there way to protect as well.

I speak form some experience here.

Plus, by making about him being the youngest of 8 siblings, it takes away a possible "guys are acceptable targets for jokes we'd never pull with girls, and were gonna show her as hyper competent because she's a woman and him as grossly incompetent because he's a man and thus us lucky to have her." flavor of sexism that media seems to love.

This way, it's just normal sibling and family stuff.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-10-19, 04:12 AM

Yup. Almost like killing characters means that it cuts off major story options for them or something. :smallsigh:

Could have had a somewhat compelling and entertaining subplot, but instead, DARK AND EDGY! ANGST! CONSEQUENCES! Not like we'd had 2 major characters killed, a title character maimed, another functionally raped and certainly beaten by her ex who's also a major former trusted authority figure while she was a minor, there entire home lost, a tone of other people killed in terms of civilians and the like, and at the time they killed Phyrra the heavy implication we'd killed one more major character who was the closest thing the group had to a trump card, by the time we got to killing Phyrra off already.

Oh. Wait.

So...wait...confused. I've seen plenty of people complaining that there weren't any stakes or consequences in RWBY (even if they were, just not that major)...this is the first time I've seen someone unhappy that there actually were consequences.

Two major characters killed...Wait...Penny and...Pyrrha? Don't know if you're referring to someone else since you mention Pyrrha later on. Do you?

Yang's dismemberment was something coming. The quote for her trailer all but said that this was going to happen. It sucks but THAT leads an entertaining subplot on its own. I want to see how Yang copes now, especially if they can't afford to get a replacement arm like Ironwood. I want to see her overcome what has happened to her emotionally and physically and, ultimately, prove Qrow's cynicism wrong.

...Functionally raped is a bit much. Blake was beaten up, stabbed, and had all her loved ones threatened. She had some sort of relationship with Adam before that was abusive, but if it was in that way Blake probably would have bailed long before the train job. She has no qualms about running away. The scene was supposed to make you uncomfortable because, for one of the few times in RWBY, one of the main heroines was completely and utterly outmatched. Blake was helpless and that's un-nerving.

Losing Beacon sucks, but Vale survives. Vale is in a lot better shape than it otherwise would have been, thanks to the events of Volume 2.

There's nothing wrong with a show taking a darker path so long as it does it well...so far, RWBY has. Yeah, Ruby and Yang were upset about what happened but Ruby just saw two friends die in front of her while she failed at her life-long dream. Yang suffered something that full grown adults struggle with for their entire lives. They are, respectively, 15 and 17. All things considered, Ruby at least seems to have bounced back in the time it took from when she woke up until that first snow. Jaune seems more somber and I expect he'll need some advice/support at some point but he seems more motivated than angsty. Norra and Ren seem much the same as always.

Pyrrha dying has opened up more entertaining subplots than her surviving would have, especially considering her character was made for the purpose of dying. It sucks, Pyrrha was ten shades of awesome, but it was a well worked moment. Same with a lot of the other stuff that happened in the Season 3 finale. After three seasons of a group of teenaged girls thinking they were single-handedly solving all the problems in Vale/Remnant, it was...not good but necessary for them to get that slap of reality for their character arcs and the fans. As awesome as Team RWBY/JNPR/etc were...they're still just kids. Kids who were in school and now the whole world is opened up for the story, a world were they have room to grow and develop as characters and fighters because now we have a much better idea of what they are up against because the villains not only showed their fangs...they bloodied them. And if what Qrow said is true, Salem has even worse things hidden out in the world.

The cast needed to grow up, that's been something the show has been saying for a long time that they wouldn't be able to be children forever. Well, now the time has come and they can't continue to be children anymore.

Just my opinion on the matter! ...All said though, I'd hardly call closing off exploration of Jaune and Pyrrha's relationship cutting off major story options. As much as I like Pyrrha and with how much more I like Jaune, they aren't the main characters and their relationship is exactly that...a relationship that was admittedly given some focus but it was not a major storyline.

LaZodiac

2016-10-19, 11:44 AM

So...wait...confused. I've seen plenty of people complaining that there weren't any stakes or consequences in RWBY (even if they were, just not that major)...this is the first time I've seen someone unhappy that there actually were consequences.

Two major characters killed...Wait...Penny and...Pyrrha? Don't know if you're referring to someone else since you mention Pyrrha later on. Do you?

Yang's dismemberment was something coming. The quote for her trailer all but said that this was going to happen. It sucks but THAT leads an entertaining subplot on its own. I want to see how Yang copes now, especially if they can't afford to get a replacement arm like Ironwood. I want to see her overcome what has happened to her emotionally and physically and, ultimately, prove Qrow's cynicism wrong.

...Functionally raped is a bit much. Blake was beaten up, stabbed, and had all her loved ones threatened. She had some sort of relationship with Adam before that was abusive, but if it was in that way Blake probably would have bailed long before the train job. She has no qualms about running away. The scene was supposed to make you uncomfortable because, for one of the few times in RWBY, one of the main heroines was completely and utterly outmatched. Blake was helpless and that's un-nerving.

Losing Beacon sucks, but Vale survives. Vale is in a lot better shape than it otherwise would have been, thanks to the events of Volume 2.

There's nothing wrong with a show taking a darker path so long as it does it well...so far, RWBY has. Yeah, Ruby and Yang were upset about what happened but Ruby just saw two friends die in front of her while she failed at her life-long dream. Yang suffered something that full grown adults struggle with for their entire lives. They are, respectively, 15 and 17. All things considered, Ruby at least seems to have bounced back in the time it took from when she woke up until that first snow. Jaune seems more somber and I expect he'll need some advice/support at some point but he seems more motivated than angsty. Norra and Ren seem much the same as always.

Pyrrha dying has opened up more entertaining subplots than her surviving would have, especially considering her character was made for the purpose of dying. It sucks, Pyrrha was ten shades of awesome, but it was a well worked moment. Same with a lot of the other stuff that happened in the Season 3 finale. After three seasons of a group of teenaged girls thinking they were single-handedly solving all the problems in Vale/Remnant, it was...not good but necessary for them to get that slap of reality for their character arcs and the fans. As awesome as Team RWBY/JNPR/etc were...they're still just kids. Kids who were in school and now the whole world is opened up for the story, a world were they have room to grow and develop as characters and fighters because now we have a much better idea of what they are up against because the villains not only showed their fangs...they bloodied them. And if what Qrow said is true, Salem has even worse things hidden out in the world.

The cast needed to grow up, that's been something the show has been saying for a long time that they wouldn't be able to be children forever. Well, now the time has come and they can't continue to be children anymore.

Just my opinion on the matter! ...All said though, I'd hardly call closing off exploration of Jaune and Pyrrha's relationship cutting off major story options. As much as I like Pyrrha and with how much more I like Jaune, they aren't the main characters and their relationship is exactly that...a relationship that was admittedly given some focus but it was not a major storyline.

To explain things, Metahuman is hyper-cynical of any sort of darkness.

Also, I REALLY disagree, Pyrrha's death opens up basically no interesting plot threads at all. It severs one of the two only interesting romances in the series and basically does nothing else by remove a very powerful character from the setting.

Oh hey another World of Remnant. It seems they've released they didn't do any actual world building so now they have to clambor it all together. This one is about Mistral. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvTyOBZlvEk&feature=em-uploademail)

It's fantasy China. It's just China. Plus Japan. Can we talk a bit about how the mixture of english place names and japanese place names continues to give this series a kind of...muddled feeling? Why is one town in Mistral called "Windpass" or whatever, but another is called "Kuji-nosei". And why is the capital Mistral? It just feels like a collection of words that sound nice, without any care put into making everything feel "united", if that makes sense. If you want to make your big ole Chinese/Japanese super nation, go full force with it. Don't just waffle around with place names.

Also god the hippy nonsense. Look, I'm all for the environment, but "they are the most in tune with nature because they live in cliff faces" is stupid. Nice to know Ren is probably from here though.