Knowledge Cleric Wizard, which school?

[Reosoul]

Hello folks! I'm going to be joining a new campaign soon and I've been thinking of rolling up a more support-based character. Starting off cleric to get juicy stuff like bless and healing word, then swapping purely to Wizard from level 2 onward. But.. what school?

Here's the build thus far:

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8
High Elf Sage, Knowledge Cleric 1 / Wizard (+)
Cantrips: Green-flame blade(High Elf), Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame
Cleric Spells known: Bless, Healing Word, Command, Identify
Skills: Arcana, History, Insight, Medicine, Nature(x2), Perception, Religion(x2)

Unless someone else dips cleric, I assume my character will be running bless most of the time in a serious fight unless an opportunity arises for another spell that would functionally end the fight.

All that's good and all, but what School do I take for the wizard if I expect to be running bless constantly? I thought either Illusion(Potential for shenanigans!) or Divination(Portent!) would be cool, but what do you guys think?

[rollingForInit]

Divination is always great, and I think it goes well with the High Elf sage fluff.

I'm not a fan of Illusion on lower levels. In my very humble opinion, it starts to shine at level 14, when it becomes super awesome.

I like Conjuaration for the 2nd level feature. Easily the most fun ability a school offers at level 2, even if it's one of the least mechanically useful. It's like Prestidigitation on steroids. Just makes the Wizard feel more Wizardly.

[Specter]

Diviner, fo'sho, but if you're taking more than 5 Wiz levels and are interested in minions Necro might be worth a look. And why are you Expertising Nature instead of Arcana?

[Reosoul]

Sounding like it's Diviner then!

@Specter You already get Arcana on account of being a sage, I'm pretty sure the Knowledge Cleric feature that grants you two skills requires that whatever two skills you grab get the expertise.

[MrFahrenheit]

If you're starting off with just one level of cleric, I'd actually suggest life domain. Otherwise, knowledge's CD really shines, so grab a second level. Wizard capstone sucks, and 19 is a wash with the late ASI.

As for which wizard school, it all ebbs and flows, but if you're just going by what the party needs, I'd offer this:
If the rest of the party seems pretty balanced, Divination or Evocation.
If the party lacks in the meat shield department, Conjuration or Necromancy
Need a face and/or stealth? Enchantment or Illusion.
Control? Transmutation or Abjuration.

[TheFlyingCleric]

You forgot one of the best things about Cleric; their armor proficiency.

Wear medium armor and carry a shield, and you have 17-18 AC. This helps shore up the squishiness of the Wizard; the best a normal Wizard can hope for is 16 AC at the cost of a spell slot.
A shield does not inconvenience a Full-Caster, as they only need one hand for casting spells. With a weapon it can be slightly more complex, but you have free object interaction each turn to deal with this. It helps that many cleric spells can be cast through your shield, and for Green Flame Blade you can use your weapon for the somatic component.

I made a character focused on being a not-squishy Wizard. Basically the same as your build here; High Elf, Knowledge Cleric, Abjuration Wizard. Only differences were that I took firebolt at level 1, and Thaumaturgy (very fun cantrip to have) instead of sacred flame. Firebolt is better than sacred flame; it relies on your greatest skill modifier, INT, instead of WIS. I took Booming Blade later, at level 2.

Result is a wizard that doesn't need to hide behind his allies all the time, and instead can be at the front of combat, like a cleric. And knows 7 different languages for some reason.

[Gignere]

Sounding like it's Diviner then!

@Specter You already get Arcana on account of being a sage, I'm pretty sure the Knowledge Cleric feature that grants you two skills requires that whatever two skills you grab get the expertise.

Actually you can still expertise Arcana, because you pick that as your Cleric pick and than if you do that your background proficiencies are redundant you can pick whatever you want per PHB as long as you justify to DM.

I would not recommend GFB as your high elf cantrip, I think a range cantrip like chill touch is way better. Although you have better AC than the typical wizard your hps and the fact you'll be concentrating on bless means it is tactically better to avoid melee.

With both chill touch and sacred flame, you can now focus on utility cantrips when you get your wizard level. I would pick mending over light, not difficult to carry a torch, also you have darkvision let the other players without darkvision worry about lighting up the dungeons.

[WickerNipple]

Actually you can still expertise Arcana, because you pick that as your Cleric pick and than if you do that your background proficiencies are redundant you can pick whatever you want per PHB as long as you justify to DM.

This. Page 125 PHB under Proficiencies. You choose background last during character generation, and if already have one+ of your background's skills from class/race you get to pick something else.

[ruy343]

If you have access to the SCAG, perhaps you might consider the Arcana domain cleric? It might get you the divine/arcane magic feel you're looking for.

However, if you're sold on Knowledge cleric for whatever reason, the most thematic options would be divination and illusion, although you could pick any of them for fluff reasons (perhaps you particularly enjoyed studying a specific magical school while you were studying to become a knowledge cleric?). I think that it would be pretty neat RP-wise to play a good-hearted cleric with a specific focus on Abjuration, who cares so much for people that he studied arcane magic to protect them. Alternately, a transmutation focus would allow you to gain a philosopher's stone, which could have a fun roleplaying focus as well (perhaps you set out on your journey to create a philosopher's stone to preserve your mentor's/whatever your bond is-'s life?).

Whatever you choose, don't just pick it for optimization reasons - do it because that's how you want the character to play. 5e characters don't need a ton of optimization to be effective and fun.

[Reosoul]

I sort of imagined this High Elf as the wimpy son of two ex-adventurers, paladin and cleric respectively, who only decided to study to be an acolyte as a means of placating them, fully intending to eventually go into studying the stuff he wants, such as particle physics and shearing dimensional rifts(Wizardry is the rad science). Adventuring is bollocks until.. it turns out it's actually a refreshing change of pace(and a different kind of laboratory).

I'm probably only grabbing one level in Cleric because I don't want to delay my Wizard spells very much. Delaying too much tends to make your Wizardry lest impactful. While Cleric isn't bad, it's primarily there to save me a spell slot every day from casting mage armor, and getting better AC out of the deal(Medium armor + shield), as well as some staple support spells. I'm getting more than I'm losing(momentum and wizard capstone I probably won't reach). I don't see anything in a Cleric level 2 that is worth slowing myself down anymore than I am already.

Glad to know I can grab expertise in whatever isn't redundant, as Arcana and History tends to be the skills people have a tough time justifying/being good at.. but also hurts when you fail them. In that case.. maybe nature over history...

[MrFahrenheit]

Knowledge is ok for 1 level, but it really shines at the second level. And wizard's capstone may as well come at level 18, not 20.

Regarding not want Ming to delay wizard spells...

Assuming 27 point buy, you'll have 20 int by CL 9 (clr 1/wiz 8). You may want to take a second cleric level at the next level up by that point. You'll get that knowledge CD (which is probably the best OOC class feature in the game), and still get two more ASIs/feats. This is for the sake of example, you can obviously mix and match ASIs/feats (e.g., have 16 int with war caster and resilient con at CL 9), but losing the last ASI/feat at wiz 19 is really nbd.

[ruy343]

I sort of imagined this High Elf as the wimpy son of two ex-adventurers, paladin and cleric respectively, who only decided to study to be an acolyte as a means of placating them, fully intending to eventually go into studying the stuff he wants, such as particle physics and shearing dimensional rifts(Wizardry is the rad science). Adventuring is bollocks until.. it turns out it's actually a refreshing change of pace(and a different kind of laboratory).


So... in that case, he really wants to be an evoker...?

On another note, you don't really get bonus spell slots per se with a cleric level. Multiclassing rules give you spell slots as a sum of your casting levels, so technically, when you reach level 1 cleric/level 2 wizard, you'll have level 2 spell slots, though you won't know any level 2 spells. See chapter 6 for details.

Also, mage armor replaces the armor bonus you would receive from wearing medium armor, so if you're hoping to get spare slots for mage armor, you might be disappointed.

Once again, I recommend an Arcana cleric, but barring that, a light cleric might work well for you instead, and might work with your roleplaying.

[Reosoul]

So... in that case, he really wants to be an evoker...?

On another note, you don't really get bonus spell slots per se with a cleric level. Multiclassing rules give you spell slots as a sum of your casting levels, so technically, when you reach level 1 cleric/level 2 wizard, you'll have level 2 spell slots, though you won't know any level 2 spells. See chapter 6 for details.

Also, mage armor replaces the armor bonus you would receive from wearing medium armor, so if you're hoping to get spare slots for mage armor, you might be disappointed.

Once again, I recommend an Arcana cleric, but barring that, a light cleric might work well for you instead, and might work with your roleplaying.

I was thinking more along the lines of Wizard class itself being about the only one that casts magic through understanding the forces at work and using them, where everyone else(Clerics/bards/warlocks) do it through force of will or connection with a greater entity.

As with not getting behind on the Wizard, per the PHB: "If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells."

When this character hits level 5, he won't have Fireball. When he hits level 6(getting 5th level in Wizard), he will have access to Fireball. I think we're arguing the same thing, but what I'm saying is I'd rather being wearing Med armor + shield with a dex bonus than spending a spell slot on Mage armor. That's worth delaying ALL my Wizard spells by one level.

Besides that, Light Cleric might be cool, but not what I'm looking for. Doesn't provide enough options for controlling the battlefield. Arcana domain has the same problem, but is also all-around weaker with some class features that make no sense(in my opinion) or are maybe just designed for a very specific type of campaign.

I'm pretty sold on Knowledge Cleric as a 1 level dip. Life is cool, too, but I got a dex mod, may as well use it and get some expertise while I'm at it.

[TheFlyingCleric]

I went and looked at the Arcana domain and... wow I wish I had seen it earlier. Especially since I my cleric as being of a God of magic.
Dropping two languages and one of the expertise skills (The other I had in Arcana anyway) for two additional cantrips is well worth it, and the lvl 1 domain spells are much better; it's better to have Detect magic prepared and Identify in your spellbook than the other way around, and Magic Missile doesn't rely on your WIS mod, like Command does.

So yeah, if you want an optimal build, I say Arcana Domain. Having a cantrip for every situation is very fun and useful, and the Domain spells will be spells you're otherwise going to take as a matter of course. So you can pick some other spells at Wizard level 1 instead of those two spells, making you a more versatile Wizard.

What school you pick for Wizard is up to you. Wizards are less defined by their School than Clerics are by their Domains; Wizards all have access to the same spell list, for one thing. You can make a very potent anti-spellcaster Wizard if you go Abjuration, but that's just my personal preference.

[Slipperychicken]

I think pure cleric is the better support. It gets you better healing and status-removal, and paradoxically better divination than a diviner wizard.

The ability to heal better (with mass-heals in particular), remove statuses, and revive PCs will be more universally helpful than whatever wizard utility spell you pick. It's not guaranteed that your DM will throw in obstacles that can only be bypassed by your favorite wizard spell. However just about every party will run into status effects, dead PCs, get cursed or possessed, and get their hp knocked down by fights. The ability to deal with those common situations will add far more value than gambling that your DM will cater to the spells you happened to prepare today.


I ran a knowledge cleric1/wizardX, and I found it underwhelming. All the knowledge stuff sounds wonderful on paper ("oh boy I know everything! That will be really helpful!"), but in an actual game there's a gigantic question of how much patience your DM really has for giving you "free" info, whether he even bothered to prepare the info you want, and how useful it will be. I have played knowledge-related builds with several DMs and noticed they quickly got tired of giving me helpful knowledge, so they resorted to excuses to make knowledge not work. That is a serious risk that you should heed. There's also the question of how valuable that stuff actually is to you. If your party will kick the door in and run in guns blazing no matter what they know, then is that information really helpful? Nowadays I've learned to more or less abandon knowledge skills and powers in favor of ones that will have a measurable impact that isn't as reliant on the DM's good graces, such as perception, insight, acrobatics, and athletics.

Also, I've played with it, and I think the divination school's portent ability is hugely overrated. The enemies you'll want to use it on most, namely solo boss enemies, will often have legendary saves. You might be able to say "no, you fail the save", but the DM will be able to reply with "no, actually, he passed it now", leaving you down an action and a spell slot with nothing to show for your trouble. Also the fact it needs to be declared prior to the roll make it much less useful than it sounds.


tl;dr: The things that build is good at are hugely dependent on the DM's will, and can easily be rendered useless by his style. A pure cleric however is better equipped to support the party during common adventuring situations.