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Counterpower
2007-07-01, 10:06 PM
Well, this afternoon I went out and did some archery practice. Now, the D&D system really doesn't translate into real life that well, but I still think I'm going to take my results and look at my attack bonus.

Alright. I hit a stationary Small target (AC 6) with 62 out of 100 shots, or approximately a 60% hit rate. (I rounded it to the nearest 5% to facilitate translation to a d20.) On a d20, I have a 60% chance of rolling a 9 or higher. So, a 9 plus my total ranged attack bonus has to be 6, and my total ranged AB is -3. Now, there are two possible choices here, since I'm not really sure if D&D has a definition for "proficiency" beyond "you have the feat." I'm going to do this both ways.

If I am proficient with the bow I was using, then I take no penalty. I don't believe I was far enough away from the target to impose a range increment penalty, although I don't know exactly how far away I was. Thus, the combination of my BAB and my Dexterity modifier has to be -3. That means my Dex is no higher than 5, and could be lower depending on how many levels I have. I think I'm probably an expert, since commoners don't get Knowledge skills, and I'm reasonably intelligent. Thus, for every level in expert, my Dex decreases by two points, and I can't have more than 3 levels in expert because if I had the 4th, my Dex would have to be -1, which is impossible. Most likely scenario if I am proficient: expert 1, Dex 5. Not too appetizing.

If I'm not proficient, then I take a -4 penalty to my attacks. No range increment penalty, just like the other scenario. In this case, the combination of my Dex and my BAB has to be +1. Thus, my Dex could be as high as 13, if I had only one level of expert. I actually think that I'm probably still 1st level, due to the amount of experience I've probably gained. (Let's see, how much EXP is a hard test worth........) Most likely: expert 1, Dex 12-13. Also possible is expert 2, Dex 10-11. The second has it's advantages, as well.... I really don't think my Dex is all that exceptional, so average Dex may be a better fit.

Thoughts? Comments? Mistakes in my math? Your own conclusions about your abilities?

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 10:08 PM
How far away was the target? d20 Modern bows have a much shorter range than D&D ones.

SadisticFishing
2007-07-01, 10:08 PM
What size was the target exactly?

Counterpower
2007-07-01, 10:11 PM
Sorry, Dhavaer, but I forgot to measure the range. I can do that tomorrow, but it's kind of dark outside now. What is the range increment on a d20 modern bow, out of curiosity?

SadisticFishing: a stationary, Small sized target.

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 10:13 PM
Sorry, Dhavaer, but I forgot to measure the range. I can do that tomorrow, but it's kind of dark outside now. What is the range increment on a d20 modern bow, out of curiosity?

SadisticFishing: a stationary, Small sized target.

40ft.

I think SadisticFishing wanted to know the size in inches/centimetres, btw.

SadisticFishing
2007-07-01, 10:15 PM
Small as in the size of a halfling? Like ... less than 5 feet tall, and even thinner than that?

I think the problem is the size modifiers are not realistic. Try hitting a Medium or Large target, and try again :P

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 10:16 PM
Small as in the size of a halfling? Like ... less than 5 feet tall, and even thinner than that?

Small would be less than 4ft.

Counterpower
2007-07-01, 10:20 PM
Oh, my apologies for the misconception. The target's no more than 3ft tall, and...... maybe a foot wide? Foot and a half? I'm horrible at judging distances with my eyes alone. Though, if the range increment for d20 modern weaponry is only 40ft, I might have been on the outer edge of that. So there might be a range increment penalty. I'll make all of these measurements when I have the chance, tomorrow.

Seffbasilisk
2007-07-01, 10:20 PM
Perhaps you have the flaw "Shakey"? -2 to ranged attacks? Or a similar flaw?

Dhavaer
2007-07-01, 10:25 PM
Oh, my apologies for the misconception. The target's no more than 3ft tall, and...... maybe a foot wide? Foot and a half?

That's going to be on the edge of Small/Tiny, then. A +1 attack bonus seems completely reasonable to me, though.

SadisticFishing
2007-07-01, 10:34 PM
... +5% chance to hit, going from 3 by 1.5 to 6 by 3.5? There's something wrong with the D&D system on this, heh.

ByeLindgren
2007-07-02, 12:03 AM
On the statistical side of things, you may not have enough data to have a small margin of error. Your attack bonus ideas could be completely changed if tomorrow (or, rather, over the next 100 shots) you shoot much better or worse.

That, and, well, you know. The whole 'it doesn't model reality' thing.

Miles Invictus
2007-07-02, 12:29 AM
I think you're either nonproficient, with a slightly higher-than-average Dexterity (12-13), or you are proficient, but you're also Shaky and you have a slightly lower-than-average Dexterity (8-9). Both fit the figures.

How long have you been practicing with the bow?

Overlord
2007-07-02, 09:59 AM
Did somebody sneak up behind you and cast bane on you while you were not looking?

You should carry around more wands of true strike.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-07-02, 10:10 AM
To contrast, work out your ability to land a punch on somebody completely unarmed, unarmoured and unsuspecting.

BAB makes some things stupidly hard and some things stupidly easy.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-07-02, 10:16 AM
With a crossbow, I will hit a half foot diameter target at 40ft 50 times out of 50 in a single shooting session.

Throwing a baseball, I am lucky to hit the same target 5 times out of 50 in a single throwing session.


What does this mean for my BaB and stats?

Dan_Hemmens
2007-07-02, 10:22 AM
With a crossbow, I will hit a half foot diameter target at 40ft 50 times out of 50 in a single shooting session.

Throwing a baseball, I am lucky to hit the same target 5 times out of 50 in a single throwing session.


What does this mean for my BaB and stats?

It means that the range increment on a Baseball is really small.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-07-02, 10:25 AM
It means that the range increment on a Baseball is really small.

Hmmm... What are the range increments on thrown weapons in DnD actually (can't find them in the SRD at the moment)? For me, this inability to throw applies to more then just baseballs

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-02, 10:29 AM
You might need to exclude those shots that "hit" but didn't actually land on the mark(ie, beyond the outermost rings on a dartboard, where the numbers are, rather than anywhere you can score)

Indon
2007-07-02, 10:30 AM
With a crossbow, I will hit a half foot diameter target at 40ft 50 times out of 50 in a single shooting session.

Throwing a baseball, I am lucky to hit the same target 5 times out of 50 in a single throwing session.


What does this mean for my BaB and stats?

You're proficient with Crossbows (maybe even with a weapon focus feat, if you practice enough with it), but unproficient with baseballs, in addition to the different range increments.

bugsysservant
2007-07-02, 10:37 AM
To further contrast: I can hit a small dot (AC 13. -5 for no dex, +8 for fine) with my fist 100% of the time. Even counting the +4 I get to hit, that still makes me bab +8 (at least). Also I clearly have no chance for critical failure, so I must treat all ones as if they had a chance to hit. The only things I know that do that are deities, so while you all may be high level, I am a GOD!

edit: forgot to mention-I can hit much more rapidly than one punch every six seconds, so I'm not lining up a coup de gras to atuo hit. If anything I am getting multiple attacks per round, making me either a monk, or a higher level character.

Indon
2007-07-02, 10:40 AM
To further contrast: I can hit a small dot (AC 13. -5 for no dex, +8 for fine) with my fist 100% of the time. Even counting the +4 I get to hit, that still makes me bab +8 (at least). Also I clearly have no chance for critical failure, so I must treat all ones as if they had a chance to hit. The only things I know that do that are deities, so while you all may be high level, I am a GOD!

Maybe you just have a proliferation of luck-feat-type abilities? :smallwink:

Cyborg Pirate
2007-07-02, 10:43 AM
You might need to exclude those shots that "hit" but didn't actually land on the mark(ie, beyond the outermost rings on a dartboard, where the numbers are, rather than anywhere you can score)

It wasn't anything like a normal target. It was actually just a heavy rubber ball with a quarter-inch circle pasted on it to make a center for me to aim at. I hit the ball all the time, and the circle itself about 2 times out of 5.

When making snap-shots, I hit the circle 0 times, but never missed the ball. Idem when shooting the crossbow one-handed (just for fun, I know a crossbow isn't supposed to be used that way):smalltongue:



You're proficient with Crossbows (maybe even with a weapon focus feat, if you practice enough with it), but unproficient with baseballs, in addition to the different range increments.

Is it possible to be proficient in crossbows while not proficient with throwing weapons? I thought that in 3.5 they all came in a single package. (I ought to go have another look at the SRD)

No weapon focus feat tho. I did that on the day after I bought the crossbow. On the day I bought the crossbow itself, I only shot enough times to adjust the sights for a proper distance, and before I bought it, I never shot a crossbow before. Nor have I ever fired a regular gun before.

brian c
2007-07-02, 10:47 AM
A baseball should be a "simple weapon" so nearly everyone is proficient. Probably a range increment of about 20ft though, so that's your problem. Major League pitchers have Weapon Focus (Baseball) and Far Shot, at least.


@Dan_Hemmens: When you punch someone unarmored and unsuspecting, you're using your attack roll at d20+1 or d20+2, probably, against base AC of 10, so you have about a 55% or 60% chance to do damage. A "miss" can also be interpreted as a glancing blow that doesn't do any real damage. Alternatively, if you really are right behind someone and they don't notice you at all, you're definitely going to be able to do some subdual damage but in that case it's more like a coup de grace.

Lòkki Gallansbayne
2007-07-02, 10:48 AM
Is it possible to be proficient in crossbows while not proficient with throwing weapons? I thought that in 3.5 they all came in a single package. (I ought to go have another look at the SRD) It is if you're a commoner. They get proficiency with just one simple weapon. Alternatively, your DM may be using the weapon groups variant, but since who he is and whether or not he exists changes depending on your religion and philosophy, good luck getting a straight answer out of him. :smallwink:

Counterpower
2007-07-02, 10:49 AM
Well, I did say I was horrible at judging distances with my eyes. The target I was shooting at was actually about 2' by 1'. Would that mean it was Tiny, instead of Small, and thus recieve a +2 to AC?

Cyborg Pirate: I'm not sure if you can be proficient in one but not the other, by D&D rules.... Certainly in reality you can probably be proficient with one, but not the other. And I believe all ranged weapons have a range increment of 10ft. That, and you were using a crossbow sight? That probably gives a bonus on the attack roll.....

Counterpower
2007-07-02, 10:55 AM
ByeLindgren: Yeah, I'm not really sure either if I have enough of a sample. I really should go find my old statistics notes and see if I can find out.

Miles Invictus: I almost hope I'm not Shaky, because I like ranged attacks! I prefer using a bow or a rifle to a sword or a fist. Still, you're right. Both of those do fit the data provided. As for my time with the bow....... crap, I forget. At least a year, I think. That said though, I haven't been regularly practicing either.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-07-02, 10:57 AM
It is if you're a commoner. They get proficiency with just one simple weapon.

hmmm... But I know I also have exotic weapon proficiency as I'm more then capable of wielding a katana (which in dnd is essentially a bastardsword) efficiently both one and two-handed, as well as being capable of effectively wielding various polearms.

Oh, which reminds me. According to DnD, I also have Spring-Attack, which means I must have also taken Dodge and Mobility.

That's way too much feats for one commoner, and I know I'm not superhuman :smallsmile:


That, and you were using a crossbow sight? That probably gives a bonus on the attack roll.....

Oh yeah, good call, hadn't thought of that.

tobian
2007-07-02, 11:01 AM
Oh dear, I think a catgirl lost her life in this thread.

You all should know better than to try and translate DnD into/from real world physics and probability.

SHAMEFUL!

Though, the math thus far looks accurate.

But, what if the bow was cursed? :smalleek:

bugsysservant
2007-07-02, 11:01 AM
Maybe you just have a proliferation of luck-feat-type abilities? :smallwink:

Nope, definitely a god. I am confident that I could continue doing that all day, and never miss, so either I am a god, or I have an insanely high level and number of luck prestige classes. Plus, I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the world revolved around me. I finally know why: I'm the one whose turning it!

Counterpower
2007-07-02, 11:04 AM
If the bow is cursed, then I will cry. :smallfrown:

Counterpower
2007-07-02, 11:21 AM
I'll run the math again with a Tiny target, raising the AC to 7. This time I'll do it in my head, unless anyone has a strong desire to see this all written out.

Hmm....... Well, if I am proficient, then I have a Dex of 6-7 as an expert 1, or the Shaky flaw and a Dex of 10-11 as an expert 1. That second one seems like that might be it.

If I'm not, then I'm most likely an expert 2 with Dex 12-13. I don't think my Dex is really above that, which is why I discounted the expert 1 and Dex 14-15 possibility.

brian c
2007-07-02, 11:51 AM
Nope, definitely a god. I am confident that I could continue doing that all day, and never miss, so either I am a god, or I have an insanely high level and number of luck prestige classes. Plus, I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the world revolved around me. I finally know why: I'm the one whose turning it!

Seriously though- how far are you pulling back your fist between punches? How big is the target? Is the entire target coverd by your fist every time?

My point being, if you're 5ft away (standard D&D range for melee attacks) then you will not be hitting it 100% of the time unless you practice a lot

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-02, 12:48 PM
Well, since I brought up darts, I inherited a dartboard from an uncle(actually, I'm the only one who ever used it regularly anyway, so nobody fought me for it). It's been a few years since I used it, but I used to be pretty good at tagging within the central 25% with every shot, from about 10 feet away. Seeing as I could throw 1 dart every 3 seconds or so, that would make me BAB 6+? At age 13, no less.:smallbiggrin:

Sylian
2007-07-02, 01:06 PM
You know that with a melee weapon you always hit something 5 feat away, right? I think it's in the PHB, or DMG. It would be strange not to hit that door in front of you.

Indon
2007-07-02, 02:03 PM
Well, since I brought up darts, I inherited a dartboard from an uncle(actually, I'm the only one who ever used it regularly anyway, so nobody fought me for it). It's been a few years since I used it, but I used to be pretty good at tagging within the central 25% with every shot, from about 10 feet away. Seeing as I could throw 1 dart every 3 seconds or so, that would make me BAB 6+? At age 13, no less.:smallbiggrin:

Not so fast!

Darts can be dual-wielded.

Edit: Additionally, I know from screwing around with darts that I can pull off Manyshot with them (it's really not that hard, though hitting accurately with them, that's pretty tricky).

Joltz
2007-07-02, 02:29 PM
To further contrast: I can hit a small dot (AC 13. -5 for no dex, +8 for fine) with my fist 100% of the time. Even counting the +4 I get to hit, that still makes me bab +8 (at least). Also I clearly have no chance for critical failure, so I must treat all ones as if they had a chance to hit. The only things I know that do that are deities, so while you all may be high level, I am a GOD!

edit: forgot to mention-I can hit much more rapidly than one punch every six seconds, so I'm not lining up a coup de gras to atuo hit. If anything I am getting multiple attacks per round, making me either a monk, or a higher level character.
Striking inanimate objects with melee attacks is always an automatic hit...

Anyway, It's been confirmed that having everything completely level based (skills, hp, attack bonuses, feats, attacks speed) isn't a particularly effective representation of real world abilities. I've only had 2 years of Tae Kwon Do lessons but I'm confident in my ability to throw 5 attacks in 6 seconds, :smalltongue: 3 of them would probably hit too.

Play games and be happy. Don't bother warping your mind trying to prove that the game is accurate when compared to the real world. All you'll end up with is a warped mind and holes in reality.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-02, 03:04 PM
Not so fast!

Darts can be dual-wielded.

I never really got around to the point where I threw 2 at once very often(It's hard enough convincing your mother you won't put an eye out with just 1). I might have learned how to Quickdraw them though, so probably add that to my list of Feats. That or Rapid Shot.

bugsysservant
2007-07-02, 03:10 PM
Striking inanimate objects with melee attacks is always an automatic hit...

I had always thought that that only applied to coup de gras-ing them. Otherwise I think you have to make a roll to hit. (otherwise people would always be able to thread a needle on their first try.)

edit: Thank you Joltz for pointing out that it isn't a coup de gras. I had assumed it was because you use a full round action for an auto hit, but the basic theory is the same.

LotharBot
2007-07-02, 03:18 PM
Is the bow you're using of nice (masterwork) quality, or is it a cheapo made-in-some-third-world-country-with-not-quite-slave-labor type?

Joltz
2007-07-02, 03:21 PM
That's probably not an attack roll. if it was, a level 20 fighter would be better at threading needles than an old woman who sews. I'd call that a skill check. It should also be noted that "inanimate" for these purposes means not moving at all. A leaf on a tree swaying with the wind wouldn't be considered inanimate (I wouldn't).

Coup de grace is also not possible on any object btw. You can't slit a wall's throat, stab it's heart, or dismember it. Something has to have vitals to be considered a coup de grace target. You can hit it, it just won't be a save-or-die attack. (usually because it's not alive to begin with)

*looks at books to quote the auto-hit part*

oops, you're right. It does say that it requires a full round action to line up an automatic hit. That's kinda stupid (see your 100% accuracy with the dot statement)