Initiate feats and archivist

[schreier]

I know but they Dragon Magic expanded the definition of cleric for Initiate feats (DM p15) ... "Any character of a class that must select a deity and that uses the cleric spell list for spellcasting can treat his level in that class as if it were a cleric level but for the purpose of qualifying for an initiate feat."

I've seen people use that language to justify taking an initiate feat based on levels in archivist with Hathran as a prestige class. Is there a consensus on RAW or RAI there?

My gut says that the Archivist is the spellcasting class, not the Hathran ... similar to the level in spellcasting class vs spellcaster level debate (for master Spellthief)

Do most allow a prestige class - like Hathran, Contemplative, or even Dweomerkeeper (if you restrict to followers of Mystra as the recommendation text and original version do) count for Initiate feats? Honestly, logic seems to point to yes (if you've been visited by a patron deity, pretty sure they would accept you as an initiate))

Thanks
schreier

[sleepyphoenixx]

Personally i interpret it as "can cast spells from the cleric list as a Xth level caster and has the relevant deity as a patron".

In most cases it doesn't matter too much since the required level is 3rd or maybe 5th, which most have anyway because you often can't enter your PrC earlier.
In the cases it does matter (Initiate of Illmater needs cleric or paladin 7th, for example) insisting on base class levels would only accomplish nobody taking it because they want to PrC and, imo, go against the spirit of the requirement.

[schreier]

That's very reasonable - it even seems like it could be similar to a membership - kinda like Guardians of the Green - as opposed to a simple base class level (from a logic perspective). I guess it's partially balance related / partially logic, like most things in an RPG.

And if you look at Cleric - it actually doesn't even "require" a god - since you can be a cleric to an ideal (alignment for example) - so you could make the argument that an archivist, as long as it worships a god, is no different than a cleric.

I think for RAW - it is safer to have a prestige class that requires a parton (to match the text)

[Anthrowhale]

I think the key phrase is 'use the cleric spell list' which is not formally defined so you need to fall back on basic English. It seems hard to argue that a Hathran advancing Archivist does not make indirect use of the cleric spell list.

I was curious which combinations are possible so I spent some time looking it up.

A) Classes requiring a patron deity and use the cleric spell list directly or are clerics: Cleric, Contemplative, Favored Soul.
B) Classes using the cleric spell list directly that are compatible with a patron deity requiring prestige class(*): Archivist, Rainbow Servant, Generic Divine Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster).
C) Prestige classes requiring a patron deity with an Initiate feat(**) and advancing spell access: Hathran, Arcane Devotee(***), Contemplative, Divine Disciple, Eldritch Disciple, Nightcloak.

So the set of eligible-for-initiate characters have classes drawn from List A, or List B+List C.

(*) Not Mystic, Ur-Priest, or Skypledged Also, not Dread Necromancer since no patron deity requiring prestige classes advance the DNs 'advanced learning' feature.

(**) Not Scion of Tem-et-nu

(***) Advances Arcane casting only but that works via something like Wizard 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Arcane Devotee 5

[schreier]

Makes sense ... for B+C ... what if those 2 combined are only 2 levels, but there are other divine spellcasting levels? Example: Wizard 3/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Contemplative 1 ... effective divine caster of level 12, but only 2 levels are archivist and contemplative - if you had a requirement of level 3 cleric - would that work?

Same would apply to a wizard 3/cleric 1/mystic theurge 10 I guess?

[Anthrowhale]

For a level 3 cleric requirement you would need 3 levels in a C class because it is the C class that satisfies patron deity + (indirect) cleric spell list use. Levels in B do not count except in that they allow the C class to indirectly use the cleric spell list.

Also, B + 1 level from 3 different C classes would not work since you need three levels in the same C class.

[schreier]

I both agree and disagree with your last point ... I think that you must have 3 levels in classes that require a patron deity and that use (directly or indirectly) the cleric list ... but I would argue that they can be 1, 2, or 3 different classes. The specific phrase used in Dragon Magic is:

"can treat his level in that class as if it were a cleric level for the purpose of qualifying for an initiate feat" -- so, if you treat 3 separate class levels are "cleric", then you have 3 "cleric" levels I would think?

Edit: Also - was looking at other classes that require a deity - I just looked at general and FR (not Eberron), and I would think you could include (obviously for specific deities):
Complete Champion - Ordained Champion, Sanctified One, Shadowspy
Complete Divine - Black Flame Zealot, Contemplative (you mentioned already), Radiant Servant of Pelor, Shining Blade of Heironeous, Stormlord
Player's Guide to Faerun - Divine Disciple, Eye of Horus-Re (based on the reading, not the listed requirements), Hathran (you mentioned), Justicar of Tyr, Morninglord of Lathandar

3.0 Source
Faiths and Pantheons - Arachne, Doomguide, Dreadmaster, Elemental Archon, Forest Master, Goldeye, Heartwarder, Nightcloak, Silverstar, Strifeleader, Techsmith, Waveservant, Windwalker

Note - only mentioned some once if they were in multiple places

An interesting question would be on the classes that require a patron and advance spellcasting, but not at every level -- would you include each level gained in that class, or just the ones that advanced spellcasting?

[Anthrowhale]

"can treat his level in that class as if it were a cleric level for the purpose of qualifying for an initiate feat" -- so, if you treat 3 separate class levels are "cleric", then you have 3 "cleric" levels I would think?


If the editor wanted separate levels to work, they would have said something like: "can treat his levels in such classes as if they were cleric levels for the purpose of qualifying for an initiate feat". Since it doesn't say that, all qualifying levels must be in a single class.

If you have a C class that only advances casting once in 3 levels it still 'uses' the cleric-list B class so it would still qualify. There are no qualifications about how much or in what manner the cleric list must be used.

I agree the other classes found are good C class candidates. It depends a little bit on how willing a DM is to go with fluff over an explicit "Patron Deity" entry. Is "Must Worship X" equivalent to "Patron Deity X"? By RAW no, but common sense certainly says yes.