shawshank
2016-07-06, 11:06 AM
***Doing the first 3 as a walkthrough. I will have to clean this up at some point and make it pretty. For now it is just jumbled thoughts. Feedback welcome***
****Actually, I think I should probably do a write-up for each archetype. They change the base classes so much they are practically different classes. I think I will have the tier list here with a link to the writeup for each one(two in the case of Warpath Follower and Polymath). That way I can go in depth as to what qualifies each for the tier I assign in detail.****
So, I decided to go through each of the new archetypes in Path of War Expanded and rank the tier increases that occur from these trades.
***Note that every new archetype trades some of its normal class abilities to gain full initiator levels with maneuvers that cap at 6th level. Very similar to bard casting but maneuvers instead of magic.
****As a precursor to the classes I wanted to give players and GM/DM's alike some information before you get started. So, basically all path of war classes are somewhere in tier 3 according to the tier list descriptions. I would propose that a new tier be invented that falls between tier 3 and tier 2. Let's just call it Tier 3#(cuz I program that's why!).
Tier 3# - Able to do two or more things as well as classes that specialize in it and able to contribute in several other ways. Does not have any "Nuke's" for an encounter but possibly a single opponent. Far more endurance than other classes and can easily adventure all day without rest.
So that is what I would call Tier 3#. As you can see it is more powerful than tier 3 but does not have world ending power like Tier 2. I have always felt there was a chasm between tier 3 and tier 2 that seemed like the Grand Canyon at times. This, to me, fills that gap.
Barbarian (Primal Disciple) - Tier 3#
Bard (Rubato) - Tier 3#. Somewhat different play-style but you end up in a familiar place.
Dread(Nightmare) - Tier 3#(possibly tier 2 with perfect optimization) - Fixes all the weaknesses of Intimidate and makes them even stronger. Also adds additional defense and creepiness in being able to go incorporeal practically at will as well as countering and flat-out negating any attack with a strong autohypnosis check.
Fighter(Myrmiddon) - Tier 4/Tier 3# when optimized(New Mastery Books) - Gives up 5 fighter bonus feats for 2 more skill points, a better skill list, maneuvers and Grit with way better abilities than the old grit. HUGE BUFF
Marksman(Mind's Eye Disciple) - Tier 3# - Everything you lose is replaced by something that does what you lost better plus utility.
Monk(Monk of the Silver fist) - Unchained Monk(tier3#) Regular monk(Strong tier 4/low Tier 3 when optimized) - Very tanky archetype with some really good maneuverability. However, you lose flurry of blows which also means flurry style and the ability to gain extra attacks while flurrying. Also lose stunning fist but you can get that back later with a feat.]
Paladin(Knight Disciple) - Tier 3 to Tier 3# not sure yet. - Ok, so you are still a Paladin but more of a Knight for sure. You lose a lot but maneuvers and the replacement abilities buff you overall.
Ranger(Ambush Hunter) - Tier 3# - This Ranger is a badarse. The damage.. oh the damage.. This archetype is firmly entrenched to me as THE Ranger archetype to play!
Rogue(Hidden Blade) - Tier 3# - You give up 5 Rogue talents which are not great in exchange for maneuvers and gambits(which are awesome), and a bonus feat. You do not even need to play unchained with this as you can simply pick up Deadly Agility at 3 and go HAM!
Soulknife(War Soul) - Tier 3# - You give up Psychic Strike and a couple blade talents for maneuvers and some ridiculously strong Blade Skill choices. Also, the recovery mechanic is ridiculously easy to pull off. The Gifted Blade, by comparison, adds more utility to the class(not compatible with War Soul) and also raises the Soulknife to tier 3. For damage and action economy abuse, the War Soul is the better choice. If you want more utility outside of combat, the Gifted Blade is probably better.
Psychic Warrior(Pathwalker) - Tier 3# - Let me get this straight... you gain 6th level maneuvers but you do not lose your Psychic Warrior manifesting? Alright then. So what do I give up then? Oh Psionic Proficiency? Ok. I guess if I am an assassin.. but half the time I don't even care about this. What else? Bonus feats at 2 and 11. That kinda sucks but I get a ton of maneuvers that mimic feats soo..Path skills at 7th and 11th? I mean ok but don't I gain a ton of awesome skill uses with maneuvers plus additional class skills? yeah.... So Psychic Warrior was already tier 3 to start with... Oh and the paths are better now with the Pathwalker than they EVER were with the base class... wtf..
Inquisitor(Warpath Follower) - Tier 3# - TLDR you are stronger than before! - So you lose all your judgements and can cast 1 spell less per spell level. Sounds like a lot I know but, compared to manuevers, judgements suck! The maneuver mechanic is more random than normal, though you can fix it and even exploit it with some feats. You also gain proficiency and weapon focus with your deity's favored weapon for free so pick a good one! As an added bonus, you can also use this weapon as your divine focus! At 4th level you gain the equivalent of Extra Granted Maneuver for free as well.
Warpriest(Warpath Follower) - Tier 3# - TLDR - Will be behind in gold early but catchup later. Overall a stronger Tier 3. - Ok, so the Warpriest actually gives up some things maneuvers can not replace. The sacred weapon lasts rounds per day so is not amazing though it is useful. The armor effectively saves you gold which maneuvers simple can not replace, at least directly. The aspect of War thing is level 20 and is easily replaced by better stances that you acquire much earlier. The spell per level is replaceable by maneuvers fairly easily as well. The rest is the same as the Inquisitor. I tend to lean toward the gold situation working out in your favor overall because the amount of miscellaneous items you will not need because of maneuvers and stances. I could be wrong but it will certainly be close. I forgot to mention you lose the scaling damge that caps at 2d6 and can scale with size increases which is a loss. However, there are stances that can increase your damage by +2d6 per swing or more which counters the majority of the difference. Add in boosts and the overall higher damage of strikes and it either breaks even or you may still do a bit more damage than before.
Alchemist(Polymath) - Tier 3# - TLDR - Was already tier 3 and is now far stronger. - The loss of poison resistance, immunity and use seem like a big deal until you notice that the steel serpent discipline gives all that back plus 100 more things better. Don't believe me? There is a FIRST LEVEL STANCE that grants poison use and increases the save DC of ALL poisons by 1 for every 2 initiator levels! Are you friggin kidding me? So by 10th level a DC 15 poison is DC 20! Tell me again what the biggest gripe about poison use is again? Oh yeah the low save dcs....yeah... Losing 1 extract per level costs you some of your versatility but the maneuvers gives you so many options to exploit your stat buffs with it is just insane! You damage will double, at least!
Investigator(Polymath) - Tier 3# - TLDR - Considered a borderline tier 3-4 class before, is now firmly entrenched as tier 3. Basically the same thing as the Alchemist but better in poison use because the Investigator is already a natural assassin so Steel Serpent just feeds that urge to the extreme. Enjoy 1-shotting anything within 2 CR of you!
Barbarian (Primal Disciple)
Details: Barbarian with a touch of animalist that uses maneuvers based on Wisdom. Do not worry about being MAD as by 7th level you can add your wisdom mod to damage if you choose to. Or you could keep wisdom at 10-14 like you did with normal barbarians. Maneuvers have no stat requirements.
What you lose - All rage powers except for level 2, fast movement and trap sense.
What you gain - Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, Primal Fury and Thrashing Dragon Disciplines for your "bardic" maneuver progression. You also get a bonus feat at 1st and 6th level consisting of feats from Path of War. These are excellent ranging from initiating a maneuver as part of a charge or attack of opportunity to gaining temporary hitpoints to two-weapon fighting based off of strength instead of dexterity.
Golden Lion - Turns you into a pseudo Bard with party wide buffs and giving teammates extra attacks and movement. Skill: Diplomacy
Piercing Thunder - Everything primal fury missed is covered here except for Body Bludgeon. =( ***Let's you dual wield 2-handed piercing weapons*** Skil: Acrobatics
Primal Fury - Gives you most of your lost rage powers back in maneuvers including pounce. Sadly, Body Bludgeon is not replaced. Skill: Survival
Thrashing Dragon - Fixes everything wrong with dual wielding and I mean everything. Also has some great counters. Skill: Acrobatics
As you can see there are three distinct builds that show up very quickly. If you want to be a dual wielding pouncer you will invest heavily into Thrashing Dragon/Piercing Thunder with a dash of Primal Fury for pouncing and a dash of golden lion to buff damage even more.
If you want to be a 2-handed charger you will invest heavily into Primal Fury and Piercing thunder. You will invest moderately into Golden Lion for positioning and you will barely even look at thrashing dragon aside from a counter or two.
The third option is to be a battlefield manipulator investing heavily into Golden Lion while dipping into the other 3 as you see fit. This third option relies the least on Raging as you will be less effective while raging since several of the counters rely on the Diplomacy skill which is a no-go while raging. This is incorrect. Thank you Psybomb: Here is the excert taken from Page 35 of Path of War Expanded:
Maneuver Skill Checks and Rage
Why do maneuvers use such seemingly odd skills like Perform, Craft, Sleight of Hand, or Survival as part of initiating their maneuvers?
Warriors the world over would practice actions that imitated their fighting style to improve their efficiency, from the swordsman who learned dances to improve his footwork to the spearman whose gentle and precise touch could craft a beautiful vase, or pierce an artery in a flash. As such, maneuvers which require skill rolls to function are atypical of normal skill checks and do not always follow the normal rules for using skill checks. If an initiator performs a maneuver that requires a skill check when normally that skill check would be disallowed (such as during a rage) he may still initiate the maneuver and perform the skill check as normal.
Damage wise you will be about the same, maybe slightly better than before. What makes the Primal Disciple tier 3 is the ability to do other things far better than ever before. This is primary because of Golden Lion. It's ability to manipulate the battlefield and buff your companions in an unthinkable for a barbarian before support/leadership role really takes the cake. Also, it is almost impossible to be denied a charge as there are several boosts/strikes and even stances that allow you to flat out avoid the confines of your environment. Even flying charges are available.
Also, for one trait, you can swap out one of your disciplines for an entirely new one. Want to play a Chaotic Good Primal Disciple with a 2-hander of pain and a touch of paladin? Swap out Thrashing Dragon for Silver Crane and start healing party members while charging. Want to be an evil intimidating monster that creates panic among your enemies? Swap out Thrashing Dragon for Black Seraph and take strength to intimidate feat. ETC.ETC.
[B]Bard(Rubato)
Details - Loses a significant amount of Bard utility (no spellcasting) to double or even triple your damage burst potential. Still plays and feels like a bard but inches toward a maneuver rogue with music.
What you lose - All spellcasting. Also your bardic music is almost completely changed with only inspire courage, inspire competence and soothing performance remaining. Less versatile version of "versatile performance" (only works with discipline class skills(Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Perform(Dance))
What you gain - Maneuvers with the same progression as the lost spellcasting (Elemental Flux(spellcraft), Golden Lion(diplomacy) and Mithral Current(Perform(Dance)). You also add a lot of new types of music effects based on incredible burst potential. At 6th level you get a song that increases the damage you deal with a single attack by 50%. At 14th you can maximize your damage with a strike. You can stack these two musics to get 150% of max damage from a single strike. At 9th level you get a haste song for the party. As you can see there are a lot more damage based music abilities added to the class. The capstone is the ability to maintain two bardic performances at once. Keep in mind that the 6th level song(Fortissimo) and the 14th level song(Crescendo) break the music rules in that they can be used in conjunction with any other music. They are INCREDIBLY expensive to use which is why I say burst damage and not sustainable. More than a couple rounds of this and you will be out of music for the day.
Tempo - This is the biggest addition outside of maneuvers. So tempo lets you break some rules. It is a resource that you only have during combat. You start every combat with Tempo = 1/2 level + Charisma modifier. You also gain 1 tempo every round thereafter. You can spend Tempo as if it were Animus(another resource from another class) to augment elemental flux maneuvers. You can spend 2 Tempo to gain 1 Round of Bardic Music and Vice Versa as a free action once a round. So you could spend your Tempo to buff up some Elemental Flux stuff for bursting or you could just spend 2 a round to keep adding more bardic music rounds letting inspire courage last pretty much all day. However, as you level, the more powerful bardic musics you gain require Tempo to use. The 6th level song(Fortissimo) uses 2 Tempo. The 14th level song(Crescendo) uses 4! There is a 1st level song(Metronome) that adds an additional point of tempo a round. This increases to 2 at 5th and every 5 levels after. However, if you are using this, who is using Inspire Courage etc? Managing your tempo/music is a very important part of playing the Rubato Bard.
Another change to bardic music is how it even works. The Rubato can perform visually even if the performance normally requires verbal use. For example a Rubato CAN inspire competence to sneak more as he breaks the "requires verbal" action. You can also initiate a bardic music as a free action if you spend an additional bardic music round while initiating any strike. You can do this from 1st level! So instead of burning a standard or move action to start music, you just move up and attack with a strike and pay 1 extra round to start it up for free!
So the maneuvers add different ways to do damage in Elemental Flux and different ways to buff in Golden Lion. Mithral Current is a weird discipline and honestly I do not believe it belongs with the class. I personally would swap it out for something else immediately. It is mainly for unarmed characters or light weapon users with silver weapons. The big mechanic with Mithral current is threatening while sheathing weapons and giving them silver vulnerability and doing a big burst with silvered weapons or using a boost that treats your weapons as silver. It takes some setup and the payoff can be pretty sweet considering the 150% and the 50% can stack to do some impressive things. I could see a Rubato doing upwards of 200 damage with a single strike by 10th level with a round or two of setup. Again, I just do not think it fits well. I would personally pick up a healing discipline (since you lose healing spells) or maybe thrashing dragon for dual wielding. Even one of the ranged disciplines so you can safely buff and lead while still doing respectable damage.
Fortunately, Elemental Flux and Golden Lion are excellent. Elemental Flux gives you many utility abilities that you lost with spellcasting and Golden lion adds impressive leadership and battlefield control abilities. As I said before, pick another discipline that makes more sense and replace Mithral Current if you want to be the most effective.
[B]Dread(Nightmare)
Details - Does everything it did before but better. Also adds several utility abilities it never had or you had to take with the expanded powers feat. No need to do that anymore as the maneuvers cover it for you.
What you lose - your power gained at 2nd, 8th and 14th levels as well as shadow twins and the twin abilities gained later.
What you gain - Black Seraph(Intimidate), Sleeping Goddess(Autohypnosis) and Veiled Moon(Stealth) for your "Bardic" Maneuver progression. Keep in mind you still keep your psionics as well. You also gain improved versions of the abilities you had before including the ability to initiate terrors as free action (eventually two terrors at once) as opposed to swifts and increasing the range of your terror aura from 10 to 20 feet (albeit at high level). Losing the twin is certainly a loss but the maneuvers and abilities gained for outshine this loss. You also gain the "claim" class feature that appeared with the new Harbinger class that is not covered here. Claim debuffs a creature(no save) and lasts for a number rounds = 1/2 your initiator level(min 1). You can claim targets up to your charisma mod at a time. This also opens up lots more debuffing with intimidate.
Long story short you do not ever want to swap out any of your 3 disciplines. They are pretty much perfect for you in every way. Black Seraph takes your terror mechanic and doubles if not triples its effectiveness. By 8+ level you are locking down rooms of enemies while ignoring fear immunities. Sleeping Goddess gives you another place to spend your psi points as well as giving you incredible defensive abilities. I am talking ignoring entire spells on successful autohypnosis checks. Veiled Moon gives you unparalleled movement capabilities as well as going incorporeal practically at will by 7th level or so.
Just imagine a Dread(Nightmare) walking into a room and turning incorporeal while intimidating a room full of normally immune to fear monsters. Honestly, this class could maybe inch into tier 2 territory. It has some I-Win buttons.
****Actually, I think I should probably do a write-up for each archetype. They change the base classes so much they are practically different classes. I think I will have the tier list here with a link to the writeup for each one(two in the case of Warpath Follower and Polymath). That way I can go in depth as to what qualifies each for the tier I assign in detail.****
So, I decided to go through each of the new archetypes in Path of War Expanded and rank the tier increases that occur from these trades.
***Note that every new archetype trades some of its normal class abilities to gain full initiator levels with maneuvers that cap at 6th level. Very similar to bard casting but maneuvers instead of magic.
****As a precursor to the classes I wanted to give players and GM/DM's alike some information before you get started. So, basically all path of war classes are somewhere in tier 3 according to the tier list descriptions. I would propose that a new tier be invented that falls between tier 3 and tier 2. Let's just call it Tier 3#(cuz I program that's why!).
Tier 3# - Able to do two or more things as well as classes that specialize in it and able to contribute in several other ways. Does not have any "Nuke's" for an encounter but possibly a single opponent. Far more endurance than other classes and can easily adventure all day without rest.
So that is what I would call Tier 3#. As you can see it is more powerful than tier 3 but does not have world ending power like Tier 2. I have always felt there was a chasm between tier 3 and tier 2 that seemed like the Grand Canyon at times. This, to me, fills that gap.
Barbarian (Primal Disciple) - Tier 3#
Bard (Rubato) - Tier 3#. Somewhat different play-style but you end up in a familiar place.
Dread(Nightmare) - Tier 3#(possibly tier 2 with perfect optimization) - Fixes all the weaknesses of Intimidate and makes them even stronger. Also adds additional defense and creepiness in being able to go incorporeal practically at will as well as countering and flat-out negating any attack with a strong autohypnosis check.
Fighter(Myrmiddon) - Tier 4/Tier 3# when optimized(New Mastery Books) - Gives up 5 fighter bonus feats for 2 more skill points, a better skill list, maneuvers and Grit with way better abilities than the old grit. HUGE BUFF
Marksman(Mind's Eye Disciple) - Tier 3# - Everything you lose is replaced by something that does what you lost better plus utility.
Monk(Monk of the Silver fist) - Unchained Monk(tier3#) Regular monk(Strong tier 4/low Tier 3 when optimized) - Very tanky archetype with some really good maneuverability. However, you lose flurry of blows which also means flurry style and the ability to gain extra attacks while flurrying. Also lose stunning fist but you can get that back later with a feat.]
Paladin(Knight Disciple) - Tier 3 to Tier 3# not sure yet. - Ok, so you are still a Paladin but more of a Knight for sure. You lose a lot but maneuvers and the replacement abilities buff you overall.
Ranger(Ambush Hunter) - Tier 3# - This Ranger is a badarse. The damage.. oh the damage.. This archetype is firmly entrenched to me as THE Ranger archetype to play!
Rogue(Hidden Blade) - Tier 3# - You give up 5 Rogue talents which are not great in exchange for maneuvers and gambits(which are awesome), and a bonus feat. You do not even need to play unchained with this as you can simply pick up Deadly Agility at 3 and go HAM!
Soulknife(War Soul) - Tier 3# - You give up Psychic Strike and a couple blade talents for maneuvers and some ridiculously strong Blade Skill choices. Also, the recovery mechanic is ridiculously easy to pull off. The Gifted Blade, by comparison, adds more utility to the class(not compatible with War Soul) and also raises the Soulknife to tier 3. For damage and action economy abuse, the War Soul is the better choice. If you want more utility outside of combat, the Gifted Blade is probably better.
Psychic Warrior(Pathwalker) - Tier 3# - Let me get this straight... you gain 6th level maneuvers but you do not lose your Psychic Warrior manifesting? Alright then. So what do I give up then? Oh Psionic Proficiency? Ok. I guess if I am an assassin.. but half the time I don't even care about this. What else? Bonus feats at 2 and 11. That kinda sucks but I get a ton of maneuvers that mimic feats soo..Path skills at 7th and 11th? I mean ok but don't I gain a ton of awesome skill uses with maneuvers plus additional class skills? yeah.... So Psychic Warrior was already tier 3 to start with... Oh and the paths are better now with the Pathwalker than they EVER were with the base class... wtf..
Inquisitor(Warpath Follower) - Tier 3# - TLDR you are stronger than before! - So you lose all your judgements and can cast 1 spell less per spell level. Sounds like a lot I know but, compared to manuevers, judgements suck! The maneuver mechanic is more random than normal, though you can fix it and even exploit it with some feats. You also gain proficiency and weapon focus with your deity's favored weapon for free so pick a good one! As an added bonus, you can also use this weapon as your divine focus! At 4th level you gain the equivalent of Extra Granted Maneuver for free as well.
Warpriest(Warpath Follower) - Tier 3# - TLDR - Will be behind in gold early but catchup later. Overall a stronger Tier 3. - Ok, so the Warpriest actually gives up some things maneuvers can not replace. The sacred weapon lasts rounds per day so is not amazing though it is useful. The armor effectively saves you gold which maneuvers simple can not replace, at least directly. The aspect of War thing is level 20 and is easily replaced by better stances that you acquire much earlier. The spell per level is replaceable by maneuvers fairly easily as well. The rest is the same as the Inquisitor. I tend to lean toward the gold situation working out in your favor overall because the amount of miscellaneous items you will not need because of maneuvers and stances. I could be wrong but it will certainly be close. I forgot to mention you lose the scaling damge that caps at 2d6 and can scale with size increases which is a loss. However, there are stances that can increase your damage by +2d6 per swing or more which counters the majority of the difference. Add in boosts and the overall higher damage of strikes and it either breaks even or you may still do a bit more damage than before.
Alchemist(Polymath) - Tier 3# - TLDR - Was already tier 3 and is now far stronger. - The loss of poison resistance, immunity and use seem like a big deal until you notice that the steel serpent discipline gives all that back plus 100 more things better. Don't believe me? There is a FIRST LEVEL STANCE that grants poison use and increases the save DC of ALL poisons by 1 for every 2 initiator levels! Are you friggin kidding me? So by 10th level a DC 15 poison is DC 20! Tell me again what the biggest gripe about poison use is again? Oh yeah the low save dcs....yeah... Losing 1 extract per level costs you some of your versatility but the maneuvers gives you so many options to exploit your stat buffs with it is just insane! You damage will double, at least!
Investigator(Polymath) - Tier 3# - TLDR - Considered a borderline tier 3-4 class before, is now firmly entrenched as tier 3. Basically the same thing as the Alchemist but better in poison use because the Investigator is already a natural assassin so Steel Serpent just feeds that urge to the extreme. Enjoy 1-shotting anything within 2 CR of you!
Barbarian (Primal Disciple)
Details: Barbarian with a touch of animalist that uses maneuvers based on Wisdom. Do not worry about being MAD as by 7th level you can add your wisdom mod to damage if you choose to. Or you could keep wisdom at 10-14 like you did with normal barbarians. Maneuvers have no stat requirements.
What you lose - All rage powers except for level 2, fast movement and trap sense.
What you gain - Golden Lion, Piercing Thunder, Primal Fury and Thrashing Dragon Disciplines for your "bardic" maneuver progression. You also get a bonus feat at 1st and 6th level consisting of feats from Path of War. These are excellent ranging from initiating a maneuver as part of a charge or attack of opportunity to gaining temporary hitpoints to two-weapon fighting based off of strength instead of dexterity.
Golden Lion - Turns you into a pseudo Bard with party wide buffs and giving teammates extra attacks and movement. Skill: Diplomacy
Piercing Thunder - Everything primal fury missed is covered here except for Body Bludgeon. =( ***Let's you dual wield 2-handed piercing weapons*** Skil: Acrobatics
Primal Fury - Gives you most of your lost rage powers back in maneuvers including pounce. Sadly, Body Bludgeon is not replaced. Skill: Survival
Thrashing Dragon - Fixes everything wrong with dual wielding and I mean everything. Also has some great counters. Skill: Acrobatics
As you can see there are three distinct builds that show up very quickly. If you want to be a dual wielding pouncer you will invest heavily into Thrashing Dragon/Piercing Thunder with a dash of Primal Fury for pouncing and a dash of golden lion to buff damage even more.
If you want to be a 2-handed charger you will invest heavily into Primal Fury and Piercing thunder. You will invest moderately into Golden Lion for positioning and you will barely even look at thrashing dragon aside from a counter or two.
The third option is to be a battlefield manipulator investing heavily into Golden Lion while dipping into the other 3 as you see fit. This third option relies the least on Raging as you will be less effective while raging since several of the counters rely on the Diplomacy skill which is a no-go while raging. This is incorrect. Thank you Psybomb: Here is the excert taken from Page 35 of Path of War Expanded:
Maneuver Skill Checks and Rage
Why do maneuvers use such seemingly odd skills like Perform, Craft, Sleight of Hand, or Survival as part of initiating their maneuvers?
Warriors the world over would practice actions that imitated their fighting style to improve their efficiency, from the swordsman who learned dances to improve his footwork to the spearman whose gentle and precise touch could craft a beautiful vase, or pierce an artery in a flash. As such, maneuvers which require skill rolls to function are atypical of normal skill checks and do not always follow the normal rules for using skill checks. If an initiator performs a maneuver that requires a skill check when normally that skill check would be disallowed (such as during a rage) he may still initiate the maneuver and perform the skill check as normal.
Damage wise you will be about the same, maybe slightly better than before. What makes the Primal Disciple tier 3 is the ability to do other things far better than ever before. This is primary because of Golden Lion. It's ability to manipulate the battlefield and buff your companions in an unthinkable for a barbarian before support/leadership role really takes the cake. Also, it is almost impossible to be denied a charge as there are several boosts/strikes and even stances that allow you to flat out avoid the confines of your environment. Even flying charges are available.
Also, for one trait, you can swap out one of your disciplines for an entirely new one. Want to play a Chaotic Good Primal Disciple with a 2-hander of pain and a touch of paladin? Swap out Thrashing Dragon for Silver Crane and start healing party members while charging. Want to be an evil intimidating monster that creates panic among your enemies? Swap out Thrashing Dragon for Black Seraph and take strength to intimidate feat. ETC.ETC.
[B]Bard(Rubato)
Details - Loses a significant amount of Bard utility (no spellcasting) to double or even triple your damage burst potential. Still plays and feels like a bard but inches toward a maneuver rogue with music.
What you lose - All spellcasting. Also your bardic music is almost completely changed with only inspire courage, inspire competence and soothing performance remaining. Less versatile version of "versatile performance" (only works with discipline class skills(Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Perform(Dance))
What you gain - Maneuvers with the same progression as the lost spellcasting (Elemental Flux(spellcraft), Golden Lion(diplomacy) and Mithral Current(Perform(Dance)). You also add a lot of new types of music effects based on incredible burst potential. At 6th level you get a song that increases the damage you deal with a single attack by 50%. At 14th you can maximize your damage with a strike. You can stack these two musics to get 150% of max damage from a single strike. At 9th level you get a haste song for the party. As you can see there are a lot more damage based music abilities added to the class. The capstone is the ability to maintain two bardic performances at once. Keep in mind that the 6th level song(Fortissimo) and the 14th level song(Crescendo) break the music rules in that they can be used in conjunction with any other music. They are INCREDIBLY expensive to use which is why I say burst damage and not sustainable. More than a couple rounds of this and you will be out of music for the day.
Tempo - This is the biggest addition outside of maneuvers. So tempo lets you break some rules. It is a resource that you only have during combat. You start every combat with Tempo = 1/2 level + Charisma modifier. You also gain 1 tempo every round thereafter. You can spend Tempo as if it were Animus(another resource from another class) to augment elemental flux maneuvers. You can spend 2 Tempo to gain 1 Round of Bardic Music and Vice Versa as a free action once a round. So you could spend your Tempo to buff up some Elemental Flux stuff for bursting or you could just spend 2 a round to keep adding more bardic music rounds letting inspire courage last pretty much all day. However, as you level, the more powerful bardic musics you gain require Tempo to use. The 6th level song(Fortissimo) uses 2 Tempo. The 14th level song(Crescendo) uses 4! There is a 1st level song(Metronome) that adds an additional point of tempo a round. This increases to 2 at 5th and every 5 levels after. However, if you are using this, who is using Inspire Courage etc? Managing your tempo/music is a very important part of playing the Rubato Bard.
Another change to bardic music is how it even works. The Rubato can perform visually even if the performance normally requires verbal use. For example a Rubato CAN inspire competence to sneak more as he breaks the "requires verbal" action. You can also initiate a bardic music as a free action if you spend an additional bardic music round while initiating any strike. You can do this from 1st level! So instead of burning a standard or move action to start music, you just move up and attack with a strike and pay 1 extra round to start it up for free!
So the maneuvers add different ways to do damage in Elemental Flux and different ways to buff in Golden Lion. Mithral Current is a weird discipline and honestly I do not believe it belongs with the class. I personally would swap it out for something else immediately. It is mainly for unarmed characters or light weapon users with silver weapons. The big mechanic with Mithral current is threatening while sheathing weapons and giving them silver vulnerability and doing a big burst with silvered weapons or using a boost that treats your weapons as silver. It takes some setup and the payoff can be pretty sweet considering the 150% and the 50% can stack to do some impressive things. I could see a Rubato doing upwards of 200 damage with a single strike by 10th level with a round or two of setup. Again, I just do not think it fits well. I would personally pick up a healing discipline (since you lose healing spells) or maybe thrashing dragon for dual wielding. Even one of the ranged disciplines so you can safely buff and lead while still doing respectable damage.
Fortunately, Elemental Flux and Golden Lion are excellent. Elemental Flux gives you many utility abilities that you lost with spellcasting and Golden lion adds impressive leadership and battlefield control abilities. As I said before, pick another discipline that makes more sense and replace Mithral Current if you want to be the most effective.
[B]Dread(Nightmare)
Details - Does everything it did before but better. Also adds several utility abilities it never had or you had to take with the expanded powers feat. No need to do that anymore as the maneuvers cover it for you.
What you lose - your power gained at 2nd, 8th and 14th levels as well as shadow twins and the twin abilities gained later.
What you gain - Black Seraph(Intimidate), Sleeping Goddess(Autohypnosis) and Veiled Moon(Stealth) for your "Bardic" Maneuver progression. Keep in mind you still keep your psionics as well. You also gain improved versions of the abilities you had before including the ability to initiate terrors as free action (eventually two terrors at once) as opposed to swifts and increasing the range of your terror aura from 10 to 20 feet (albeit at high level). Losing the twin is certainly a loss but the maneuvers and abilities gained for outshine this loss. You also gain the "claim" class feature that appeared with the new Harbinger class that is not covered here. Claim debuffs a creature(no save) and lasts for a number rounds = 1/2 your initiator level(min 1). You can claim targets up to your charisma mod at a time. This also opens up lots more debuffing with intimidate.
Long story short you do not ever want to swap out any of your 3 disciplines. They are pretty much perfect for you in every way. Black Seraph takes your terror mechanic and doubles if not triples its effectiveness. By 8+ level you are locking down rooms of enemies while ignoring fear immunities. Sleeping Goddess gives you another place to spend your psi points as well as giving you incredible defensive abilities. I am talking ignoring entire spells on successful autohypnosis checks. Veiled Moon gives you unparalleled movement capabilities as well as going incorporeal practically at will by 7th level or so.
Just imagine a Dread(Nightmare) walking into a room and turning incorporeal while intimidating a room full of normally immune to fear monsters. Honestly, this class could maybe inch into tier 2 territory. It has some I-Win buttons.