Revlid
2016-07-06, 11:32 AM
Okay, so it’s time for my first second third fourth bit of D&D homebrew ever. I've been futzing around with game systems for a while, but I was only introduced to D&D 5e last week. I spent a few hours playing around with martial classes, during which I noticed two-weapon fighting had a problem with really, really badly diminishing returns. I've shuffled my original reasoning all the way down to the bottom of the post, but basically - two-weapon fighting starts out fine, but quickly becomes pretty bad for Fighters, Paladins, Rogues, Beast Master Rangers, Berserker Barbarians and Bards. Its fighting style does nothing to help with its problems.
So, with all that in mind, here’s my revised fix. It's a change to the two-weapon fighting rules, plus the relevant feat and fighting style, and a slight addition to class features for the Rogue and Barbarian, both of whom are iconic dual-wielders but don't or shouldn't get the fighting style.
I aimed to bypass the whole damage problem laid out in the original reasoning by limiting it to non-damage applications, making the two-weapon fighter someone who focuses more on battlefield control than raw damage, with the help of the disarm/shove/mark rules laid down in the DMG. This should a) fix the problem of scaling with Extra Attacks while a1) not blowing up in the face of proc-on-hit effects and a2) preserving the feel of a two-weapon fighter and a3) using existing mechanical principles. It should also b) fix the problem of eating up valuable bonus attacks for dedicated two-weapon fighters while b1) not ****ing too badly with the Swashbuckler Rogue or multiclassers.
Let me know what you think!
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Two-Weapon Fighting (Core Rule)
If you are wielding two one-handed melee weapons with the light property, you are two-weapon fighting. Whenever you make a melee attack on your turn while two-weapon fighting, you may use a bonus action to perform one of the following actions, targeting a creature within reach. These are called “off-hand blows”, and use the combat options described on page 271-272 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
You may mark any one creature. A creature can only be marked once at a time.
You may perform a disarm attack.
You may perform a shove attack.
Two-Weapon Fighting (Fighting Style – now also available to Paladins)
You no longer need to use a bonus action to perform an off-hand blow when engaged in two-weapon fighting, though you can still only perform one per melee attack.
Cunning Action (Rogue Class Feature)
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, Hide or Tumble action. You gain an additional option when you use a bonus action to make an off-hand blow, which allows you to double your ability modifier when rolling for damage on the original attack.
Reckless Attack (Barbarian Class Feature)
Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn. You gain an additional option when you use a bonus action to make an off-hand blow in rage, which allows you to double your ability modifier when rolling for damage on all reckless attacks this turn.
Dual Wielder (Feat)
Seen by some as a frenzied dervish and by others as a graceful master of flashing blades, you've thoroughly trained in the art of fighting with two weapons at once. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You can draw or stow a one-handed weapon in half the time, letting you draw two weapons (or stow one and draw another) when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
You can engage in two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you’re wielding aren't light. Your off-hand blow must still be performed with a light weapon.
When you are engaged in two-weapon fighting, you can spend a bonus action to treat one of your weapons as a light shield for that round. It still functions as a weapon for all purposes.
If you are wielding two melee weapons, you can engage in two-weapon fighting.
These melee weapons must be light and one-handed.
If you Attack while you are two-weapon fighting, you can use your bonus action to make another attack, which must use your other weapon.
You do not add your Ability modifier to this other attack.
You can attack a different target, or perform another action (free action, action surge) before you use this bonus action.
So two-weapon fighting is initially a very square deal. You sacrifice:
Extra damage from a non-light weapon
Extra extra damage from a two-handed weapon
Extra AC from a shield
A bonus action
In exchange for:
Extra damage from an extra attack
Extra opportunity to hit with an extra attack
This isn’t a bad trade! The most damaging light one-handed weapons in the game deal 1d6 damage, while a two-handed heavy weapon deals 1d12/2d6 damage – so you’re giving up a bonus action to deal the same average damage as a greatsword-wielding knight, while probably using Dexterity instead of Strength and giving you two chances to hit. The shield guy’s more difficult to compare, but let’s set him aside for now.
Taking the Two-Weapon Fighting style as a Fighter or Ranger even lets you add your Ability modifier to the second attack, pushing it above the greatsword-wielder… although at that point they’ll have Great Weapon Fighting and be dealing more damage themselves, and the shield guy has Defense or Dueling. Whatever. We’ll leave this out and assume it equalizes, because the math on Great Weapon Fighting is too involved for my puny brain to put out on a forum post.
The problem comes in two forms.
Extra Attack
Bonus Actions
Extra Attack comes in at level 5 for Fighters, Paladins and Rangers, and it cuts the relative usefulness of Two-Weapon Fighting in half, because now the greatweapon guy is popping out 2d12+(Mod x 2) or 4d6+(Mod x 2) damage per turn with two attacks, and you can push out 3d6+(Mod x 2) damage per turn. You’re both specced for damage over defense, and you’re already doing worse than him! That’s where it stops for Rangers and Paladins, and thank god for that.
For Fighters, it gets worse, because they get Extra Attack again, later on. And again, and again, and again. At 11th level, the greatweapon guy is doing 6d6+(Mod x 3) damage per turn, and you’re stuck at 4d6+(Mod x 3). Why even bother? It’ll get even worse later on. Hell, the one-handing guy with the shield is looking better than you – if you both have your relevant Fighting Styles, he’s doing 3d8+(Mod x 3)+6. And he gets a shield.
It’s actually even worse than that, because here we hit the second point – bonus actions. When you start off, this is a non-sacrifice, because there’s nothing else you can really do with bonus actions… but as you proceed through your Class levels, you get quite a few things you can do.
As a Fighter, you get to use your bonus action to take an Action Surge once per short rest. Paladins and Rangers can use their bonus actions on certain Spells like Divine Favour and Hunter’s Mark, as can Eldritch Knights and similar Archetypes/Multiclass options. Rogues don’t get Extra Attacks, which keeps two-weapon fighting competitive, but their bonus action is occupied by Cunning Action, which lets them dart around and hide.
You can’t use your two-weapon fighting if you’re doing any of these things. So you start off pretty balanced, and then grow badly. The stuff two-weapon fighting sacrifices becomes more valuable, the stuff it offers becomes less so. Diminishing returns in effect.
The relevant Fighting Style doesn’t help at all with this. It just lets you add your Ability modifier to the second attack, so it’s basically a trap once you move past 5th level. Even the relevant feat, Dual Wielder, is absolutely pathetic – you get +1AC, which is less than the shield you’re giving up, along with the ability to use non-light weapons to change your d6 to a d8 if you don’t mind looking a bit stupid. And that costs a feat – other people get those too, y’know.
Let me explain my reasoning more fully, from the start: Two-Weapon Fighting in 5e starts out fine. You are effectively getting greatweapon damage in exchange for a bonus action – with the benefit that you're splitting your damage potential across two attacks, which lets you target multiple enemies, use "activates on hit" powers more frequently, increase your odds of hitting with at least one attack, and, yes do things like grappling and shoving people.
There are two problems, which mostly come about when you level up, and are pretty different depending on which class you're playing.
1) Extra Attacks. All sources of Extra Attacks devalue Two-Weapon Fighting, because Two-Weapon Fighting does not scale with it. This is a particular problem for Fighters (and Hunter Rangers), who get loads of Extra Attacks and access to features that work well with single weapons of any size.
2) Bonus Action Cost. All features and spells which use a Bonus Action are in direct competition with Two-Weapon Fighting, because Two-Weapon Fighting consumes a Bonus Action. This is a particular problem for... Everyone In The Core Other Than Champion Fighters and Hunter Rangers.
Note that multiclassing – and a ****ing pox on multiclassing in a world where Archetypes exist, seriously – means that it's difficult to address these problems class-by-class.
With that in mind, what can't the fix be?
1) The fix cannot be that Two-Weapon Fighting gives you even more Extra Attacks, because that doesn't solve the Bonus Action problem for Other Classes, but does boost the effectiveness of too many effects that do not fall under the aegis of the class. At 11th level, a greatsword Fighter gets 3 2d6 attacks and a two-weapon Fighter gets 6 1d6 attacks? Well and good, except the two-weapon guy has a magic poison dagger. Hope you enjoy making twice as many Con checks!
2) The fix cannot be that it doesn't cost a Bonus Action, because while that's useful for everyone else, it does very little for many Fighters, who are the Class that suffer most from the proliferation of Extra Attacks. It also undermines the Swashbuckler Archetype, because being able to combine Disengage and Two-Weapon Fighting is that Archetype's first signature feature, so ideally we don't give it to any Rogue who dips a level into Fighter (or vice versa, ****ing multiclassing).
3) The fix cannot be advantage, because there are many other sources of attack advantage and it doesn't stack at all, so you're just invalidating other, probably more interesting powers in favour of boosted accuracy for your attack flurry.
4) The fix can be extra damage on existing attacks. This has no mechanical issues. It is, however, boring as hell – not to mention, it eliminates all the things that make dual-wielding interesting and distinct to begin with. The ability to attack multiple opponents, the increased hit chance, the sense of a deadly flurry...
So, with all that in mind, here’s my revised fix. It's a change to the two-weapon fighting rules, plus the relevant feat and fighting style, and a slight addition to class features for the Rogue and Barbarian, both of whom are iconic dual-wielders but don't or shouldn't get the fighting style.
I aimed to bypass the whole damage problem laid out in the original reasoning by limiting it to non-damage applications, making the two-weapon fighter someone who focuses more on battlefield control than raw damage, with the help of the disarm/shove/mark rules laid down in the DMG. This should a) fix the problem of scaling with Extra Attacks while a1) not blowing up in the face of proc-on-hit effects and a2) preserving the feel of a two-weapon fighter and a3) using existing mechanical principles. It should also b) fix the problem of eating up valuable bonus attacks for dedicated two-weapon fighters while b1) not ****ing too badly with the Swashbuckler Rogue or multiclassers.
Let me know what you think!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Two-Weapon Fighting (Core Rule)
If you are wielding two one-handed melee weapons with the light property, you are two-weapon fighting. Whenever you make a melee attack on your turn while two-weapon fighting, you may use a bonus action to perform one of the following actions, targeting a creature within reach. These are called “off-hand blows”, and use the combat options described on page 271-272 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
You may mark any one creature. A creature can only be marked once at a time.
You may perform a disarm attack.
You may perform a shove attack.
Two-Weapon Fighting (Fighting Style – now also available to Paladins)
You no longer need to use a bonus action to perform an off-hand blow when engaged in two-weapon fighting, though you can still only perform one per melee attack.
Cunning Action (Rogue Class Feature)
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, Hide or Tumble action. You gain an additional option when you use a bonus action to make an off-hand blow, which allows you to double your ability modifier when rolling for damage on the original attack.
Reckless Attack (Barbarian Class Feature)
Starting at 2nd level, you can throw aside all concern for defense to attack with fierce desperation. When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly. Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength during this turn, but attack rolls against you have advantage until your next turn. You gain an additional option when you use a bonus action to make an off-hand blow in rage, which allows you to double your ability modifier when rolling for damage on all reckless attacks this turn.
Dual Wielder (Feat)
Seen by some as a frenzied dervish and by others as a graceful master of flashing blades, you've thoroughly trained in the art of fighting with two weapons at once. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You can draw or stow a one-handed weapon in half the time, letting you draw two weapons (or stow one and draw another) when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
You can engage in two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you’re wielding aren't light. Your off-hand blow must still be performed with a light weapon.
When you are engaged in two-weapon fighting, you can spend a bonus action to treat one of your weapons as a light shield for that round. It still functions as a weapon for all purposes.
If you are wielding two melee weapons, you can engage in two-weapon fighting.
These melee weapons must be light and one-handed.
If you Attack while you are two-weapon fighting, you can use your bonus action to make another attack, which must use your other weapon.
You do not add your Ability modifier to this other attack.
You can attack a different target, or perform another action (free action, action surge) before you use this bonus action.
So two-weapon fighting is initially a very square deal. You sacrifice:
Extra damage from a non-light weapon
Extra extra damage from a two-handed weapon
Extra AC from a shield
A bonus action
In exchange for:
Extra damage from an extra attack
Extra opportunity to hit with an extra attack
This isn’t a bad trade! The most damaging light one-handed weapons in the game deal 1d6 damage, while a two-handed heavy weapon deals 1d12/2d6 damage – so you’re giving up a bonus action to deal the same average damage as a greatsword-wielding knight, while probably using Dexterity instead of Strength and giving you two chances to hit. The shield guy’s more difficult to compare, but let’s set him aside for now.
Taking the Two-Weapon Fighting style as a Fighter or Ranger even lets you add your Ability modifier to the second attack, pushing it above the greatsword-wielder… although at that point they’ll have Great Weapon Fighting and be dealing more damage themselves, and the shield guy has Defense or Dueling. Whatever. We’ll leave this out and assume it equalizes, because the math on Great Weapon Fighting is too involved for my puny brain to put out on a forum post.
The problem comes in two forms.
Extra Attack
Bonus Actions
Extra Attack comes in at level 5 for Fighters, Paladins and Rangers, and it cuts the relative usefulness of Two-Weapon Fighting in half, because now the greatweapon guy is popping out 2d12+(Mod x 2) or 4d6+(Mod x 2) damage per turn with two attacks, and you can push out 3d6+(Mod x 2) damage per turn. You’re both specced for damage over defense, and you’re already doing worse than him! That’s where it stops for Rangers and Paladins, and thank god for that.
For Fighters, it gets worse, because they get Extra Attack again, later on. And again, and again, and again. At 11th level, the greatweapon guy is doing 6d6+(Mod x 3) damage per turn, and you’re stuck at 4d6+(Mod x 3). Why even bother? It’ll get even worse later on. Hell, the one-handing guy with the shield is looking better than you – if you both have your relevant Fighting Styles, he’s doing 3d8+(Mod x 3)+6. And he gets a shield.
It’s actually even worse than that, because here we hit the second point – bonus actions. When you start off, this is a non-sacrifice, because there’s nothing else you can really do with bonus actions… but as you proceed through your Class levels, you get quite a few things you can do.
As a Fighter, you get to use your bonus action to take an Action Surge once per short rest. Paladins and Rangers can use their bonus actions on certain Spells like Divine Favour and Hunter’s Mark, as can Eldritch Knights and similar Archetypes/Multiclass options. Rogues don’t get Extra Attacks, which keeps two-weapon fighting competitive, but their bonus action is occupied by Cunning Action, which lets them dart around and hide.
You can’t use your two-weapon fighting if you’re doing any of these things. So you start off pretty balanced, and then grow badly. The stuff two-weapon fighting sacrifices becomes more valuable, the stuff it offers becomes less so. Diminishing returns in effect.
The relevant Fighting Style doesn’t help at all with this. It just lets you add your Ability modifier to the second attack, so it’s basically a trap once you move past 5th level. Even the relevant feat, Dual Wielder, is absolutely pathetic – you get +1AC, which is less than the shield you’re giving up, along with the ability to use non-light weapons to change your d6 to a d8 if you don’t mind looking a bit stupid. And that costs a feat – other people get those too, y’know.
Let me explain my reasoning more fully, from the start: Two-Weapon Fighting in 5e starts out fine. You are effectively getting greatweapon damage in exchange for a bonus action – with the benefit that you're splitting your damage potential across two attacks, which lets you target multiple enemies, use "activates on hit" powers more frequently, increase your odds of hitting with at least one attack, and, yes do things like grappling and shoving people.
There are two problems, which mostly come about when you level up, and are pretty different depending on which class you're playing.
1) Extra Attacks. All sources of Extra Attacks devalue Two-Weapon Fighting, because Two-Weapon Fighting does not scale with it. This is a particular problem for Fighters (and Hunter Rangers), who get loads of Extra Attacks and access to features that work well with single weapons of any size.
2) Bonus Action Cost. All features and spells which use a Bonus Action are in direct competition with Two-Weapon Fighting, because Two-Weapon Fighting consumes a Bonus Action. This is a particular problem for... Everyone In The Core Other Than Champion Fighters and Hunter Rangers.
Note that multiclassing – and a ****ing pox on multiclassing in a world where Archetypes exist, seriously – means that it's difficult to address these problems class-by-class.
With that in mind, what can't the fix be?
1) The fix cannot be that Two-Weapon Fighting gives you even more Extra Attacks, because that doesn't solve the Bonus Action problem for Other Classes, but does boost the effectiveness of too many effects that do not fall under the aegis of the class. At 11th level, a greatsword Fighter gets 3 2d6 attacks and a two-weapon Fighter gets 6 1d6 attacks? Well and good, except the two-weapon guy has a magic poison dagger. Hope you enjoy making twice as many Con checks!
2) The fix cannot be that it doesn't cost a Bonus Action, because while that's useful for everyone else, it does very little for many Fighters, who are the Class that suffer most from the proliferation of Extra Attacks. It also undermines the Swashbuckler Archetype, because being able to combine Disengage and Two-Weapon Fighting is that Archetype's first signature feature, so ideally we don't give it to any Rogue who dips a level into Fighter (or vice versa, ****ing multiclassing).
3) The fix cannot be advantage, because there are many other sources of attack advantage and it doesn't stack at all, so you're just invalidating other, probably more interesting powers in favour of boosted accuracy for your attack flurry.
4) The fix can be extra damage on existing attacks. This has no mechanical issues. It is, however, boring as hell – not to mention, it eliminates all the things that make dual-wielding interesting and distinct to begin with. The ability to attack multiple opponents, the increased hit chance, the sense of a deadly flurry...