[3.5] Two Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I was reading Darrin's TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) and I was reading about stacking Flurry of Blows with Two Weapon Fighting to get 3 attacks at level 1 and 8 at level 20. Basically, if I'm interpreting what the OffHandbook properly, you can stack two weapon fighting with flurry of blows as long as you stack the penalty from flurry with the penalty from two weapon fighting. This would mean at first level you could make 3 attacks each at a -4 penalty to hit. Is that a consensus across the board or is that an interpretation of the rules based on an online FAQ or if that was something commonly allowed in campaigns.

What do you think fellow DMs? I don't see a problem with it, but I'm interested in your opinions. I don't honestly care about RAW so much as whether you think its balanced or fair. I feel it can be pretty balanced and doesn't seem to cause any problems since its unique to the monk class.

Example:

Human
Lawful <Anything>
32 point buy


Str
12


Dex
16


Con
12


Int
12


Wis
16


Cha
8





Level
Class
Class Features/Ability Score
Feats


1st
Monk
AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Bonus feat
Stunning Fist (Monk), Weapon Finesse (Human), Improved Grapple (1st)


2nd
Monk
Evasion, Bonus Feat
Deflect Arrows (Monk)


3rd
Monk
Still Mind
Snatch Arrows (3rd)


4th
Monk
Ki Strike (Magic), Slow fall 20 ft., +1 Dex



5th
Monk
Purity of Body



6th
Monk
Bonus feat, Slow Fall 30 ft.
Improved Trip (Monk), Superior Unarmed Strike (6th)



This would get you 3 attacks as a full attack at +4/+4/+4 (+1/+1/+1 before dexterity modifier, adding dex to hit from weapon finesse) dealing 1d10+1 each on a successful hit.

I know the build isn't optimized at all, I am just theory crafting and this is barebones what I've come up with in about 10-15 minutes away from my books.



The build isn't supposed to be OP or anything, but balanced and fun. This isn't even really a build critique, its more of a mental exercise and some opinions from the rest of the playground. What do you guys thing overall of two weapon fighting stacking with flurry and then later taking superior unarmed strike? Just opinions, not looking for the "Optimal path" or anything like that.

[D.M.Hentchel]

My experience with monks is that they always fall on the weaker side of things.

The rules support this trick and flavor even supports this, it definitely isn't OP, more likely falling on the weak side of things.

I'll point out you cannot take Weapon Finesse at level 1 as a monk, you need to have a base attack bonus of +1.

[Troacctid]

I don't see any rules issues with it, so long as you're not trying to use your unarmed strike as an offhand attack. It works well with a Staff of the Vagabond. You could even add in Rapid Shot for another extra attack if you want. (Shurikens are a monk weapon, and you don't even need Weapon Finesse for them.)

The main problem is that your accuracy goes down the crapper.

[Flickerdart]

It's called "flurry of misses" for a reason - having lots of attacks that never hit is pointless. Of course, you can use something like wraithstrike to get around your dismal accuracy.

[Psyren]

If all you're asking for are opinions... I like the way Pathfinder handled it, where TWF and Flurry are two sides of the same coin (i.e. don't stack), but Flurry gives you the entire TWF line for free with full Str bonus to damage on every hit. This makes it a bit easier to balance from a design perspective because you know a monk isn't going to have significantly more hits than an ambidextrous rogue. You can design something like Pummeling Style or Jabbing Style knowing how many attacks a high-level character is going to have.

If I had to pick a favorite though it would be Unchained Flurry. Slightly fewer attacks overall but many more hits. Base Unchained Flurry with [ki] and (haste) looks like this:

+20/+20/+20/[+20]/(+20)/+15/+10/+5 = 8 attacks

Compare to regular flurry:

+18/+18/[+18]/(+18)/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 = 9 attacks

Unchained gets 1 less attack at level 20, but the large majority of them have a very good chance of landing.

[mabriss lethe]

The general consensus is "yes they stack, but you really don't want to do that.".

[ShurikVch]

3.0 Monk was better: there was special BAB which give you extra attacks after every +3 (instead every +5)
But you know which class still have it (except full rather than 3/4)?
Maho-Bujin (Oriental Adventures)

[sleepyphoenixx]

All extra attacks from different sources stack unless they say they don't, so you can certainly stack Flurry and TWF.
But as others have pointed out even using just one of them can already make hitting a problem. Using both just means you hit even less.
You can get around that to an extent by increasing your attack rolls, but even then you still won't keep up with an optimized two-handed power attacker so it's hardly OP. It also eats up a ton of feats.

Also a consideration: throwing 16 or more attacks a round may sound awesome on paper, but in practice it gets annoying really fast. Especially for the other players and the DM.

[Troacctid]

Also a consideration: throwing 16 or more attacks a round may sound awesome on paper, but in practice it gets annoying really fast. Especially for the other players and the DM.

You should be throwing all your dice at the same time.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You should be throwing all your dice at the same time.

Doesn't matter too much. You still have to work through all those attacks to finish your turn.
Sure, it's faster than rolling every attack on its own, but 16 or more attacks are still 32 dice rolls (at least), which take quite a bit of time to sort out either way.
Not too much for one round, but it adds up if you do it every round. Everyone who has ever played an optimized high-level archer or totemist can attest to that.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't matter too much. You still have to work through all those attacks to finish your turn.
Sure, it's faster than rolling every attack on its own, but 16 or more attacks are still 32 dice rolls (at least), which take quite a bit of time to sort out either way.
Not too much for one round, but it adds up if you do it every round. Everyone who has ever played an optimized high-level archer or totemist can attest to that.

This is why you use dice-rolling macros. Plastic polyhedrals are so last century,

[Necroticplague]

This is why you use dice-rolling macros. Plastic polyhedrals are so last century,

Or if you're online, just copy-paste attack lines, instead of typing out each attack on its own.

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't see any rules issues with it, so long as you're not trying to use your unarmed strike as an offhand attack. It works well with a Staff of the Vagabond. You could even add in Rapid Shot for another extra attack if you want. (Shurikens are a monk weapon, and you don't even need Weapon Finesse for them.)

The main problem is that your accuracy goes down the crapper.

Why can't you use your unarmed strikes as the offhand attack? I'm just in the dark about it is all, so be gentle with me :smalltongue:

I do realize that when you start stacking additional attacks with additional penalties you start to give you horrible returns, but anyone who plays a monk is already starting themselves for a pretty low power game in my experience and opinion. I enjoy playing at that power level because it feels like a struggle and that's kind of my game. That being said, I also enjoy low WBL, Slower experience points gain, etc. I like the slower game in general so it works pretty well for me. We typically fight creatures with 11-14 AC in those games, but we're typically not making 32 point builds either. I'm not saying "its aaaaallllllll better" but the context helps the viability of the build I think.

as for all the dice rolling, I have about 10 different colored sets of dice and about a billion d6 of thousands of different colors (I enjoy Shadowrun... what can I say). I can make all of my rolls simultaneously without issue and I just assign a color to an attack. If that one rolls a critical threat I just reuse that dice to confirm. Keeps it simple. I have a cheat sheet with what color goes with what attack so that helps me as a DM. Each person usually takes about the same amount of time at my table so I've never had too many issues with someone bogging down the game.

So Troacctid, could I use a quarterstaff as my offhand weapon without issue?

[Troacctid]

Why can't you use your unarmed strikes as the offhand attack? I'm just in the dark about it is all, so be gentle with me :smalltongue:
From the monk's unarmed strike ability: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." So you can't use an unarmed strike as your offhand weapon—it always counts as a mainhand weapon.


So Troacctid, could I use a quarterstaff as my offhand weapon without issue?
Yep, a quarterstaff is a double weapon, so it works great for a TWF monk. I mentioned the Staff of the Vagabond before—it's especially nice because with two other pieces of the set, it's effectively a +2/+2 weapon for only 3,600 gp instead of 16,600.

[AnimeTheCat]

From the monk's unarmed strike ability: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." So you can't use an unarmed strike as your offhand weapon—it always counts as a mainhand weapon.

Ah, I see. What would you think about houseruling that a Monk can use his unarmed attack as an offhand weapon and Flurry+TWF with it? This is really for anyone, not just you Troacctid. I don't think that it makes anything broken, too powerful, or otherwise cheesy. I know now that it's not RAW to do so, but I really don't think that it affects anything by allowing it.

[Troacctid]

Personally, I'd say the intent of flurry of blows is to be a replacement for two-weapon fighting, not a supplement, so I don't see any particular imperative to add such a houserule. My primary concern would be that it makes the houserule document longer without much benefit, which is something I prefer to avoid.

However, I think the general consensus in this thread is that it's definitely not going to be overpowered. I wouldn't fault you for allowing it.

[AnimeTheCat]

My list of house rules is really quite small. I don't particularly limit anything because my players don't typically push any limits. They tend to make a character concept in their mind and then build to that and optimize that character concept as opposed to optimizing a class. Example, they like taking classes like Monk, Knight, Soulknife, and Paladin and making something that works and is fun, but doesn't fail at everything. We have success in our groups and the "Higher Tier" classes tend to tone it down and focus on the role playing aspect and less on the maximizing/game breaking aspects. As a result my list of House rules only consists of 3 things, and their all fairly superficial in nature. Possibly not even house rules, but more of "AnimeTheCat's Rules of Engagement" lol

1) If you do something, expect an opposition to match.
2) If you have the skull, you're in the spotlight. If you don't have the skull, sit down unless you're supporting the spotlight. (the skull is like our "talking token" it helps keep people from walking all over everyone else)
3) If you want to do something, talk to me. I'm sure we can figure out something that will either be better, work properly, or balance with everyone else.

So I don't really have a set of house rules that I always default to. I tend to handle cases 1-on-1. I've only recently started gathering input and ideas from the Playground to try and get more perspectives and broaden my view. This may, in fact,be my only standing house rule now. Otherwise, I tend to handle things on a case by case basis.

As far as Flurry replacing TWF, I feel like it can be used either way, but I also feel that either can augment the other. What other class in the game can get 3 attacks at level 1? That's pretty unique IMO and give the monk something truly special. Not saying it's good, but special none the less.

[Darrin]

From the monk's unarmed strike ability: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." So you can't use an unarmed strike as your offhand weapon—it always counts as a mainhand weapon.


That particular phrase isn't really clear about what the designers intended, and there are other ways to interpret it. For example, it could mean that monks can use unarmed strikes as offhand attacks just fine, but they are treated as primary attacks for the purposes of determining the Strength bonus on damage.

Stacking Flurry with TWF isn't much of a rules issue. The bigger rules headaches are whether unarmed strike counts as a single striking surface (can be either primary or offhand but not both) or multiple striking surface (can be both primary and offhand at the same time), and whether the weapon restrictions on Flurry apply to extra attacks granted outside of Flurry. Since the rules are very murky here, it pretty much boils down to personal taste: what works best for your group.

[Seppo87]

You *can* by the faqs stack TWF and Flurry with unarmed strike alone, of course the secondary attacks granted by TWF will have their str bonus halved.
This is why you should go Dex or Wis with these builds.

Monk2 is an extremely good dip, you're losing 1 point of BaB but with Martial Monk you qualify for Melee Weapon Mastery ignoring requirements, which offsets the BaB loss, and any other advanced fighter feat (some say even epic feats, I think that's debatable) like Shock Trooper, Elusive Target, or even Robilar's Gambit (dangerous at low levels tho)

Then you can go Swordsage, Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Shiba Protector, Psywar, whatever really - Swordsage offers great options for a Dex or Wis based build due to easy entry to Shadow Blade and Discipline Focus and also stacks with Monk damage with the unarmed variant (clearly you want to use boost, not single strikes here) Fighter is another good 2 lv dip and offers the hit-and-run acf for DEX SAD, Barbarian has Ferocity for DEX SAD or that feat that swaps the STR bonus for DEX (stacks with Ferocity, +8 dex rage with a 1lv dip? nice) if you use fractionary BaB this gets evan easier.
Shiba Protector allows you to go full Wis with Intuitiv Strike, that's 2x Wis to hit, you're not missing anymore and you deal good damage.
Ranger can stack with Monk damage with the Ascetic Hunter feat and gets the whole TWF line without Dex, making it great for a Wis based build (allowing you to also use Stunning Fist effectively if you want to)
Ranger can also be a Wildshaping Ranger, at some point you probably want to PrC into Warshaper. Yes, you can stack Flurry, TWF and natural weapons. Cool stuff. Check the FAQs.
Psywar can stack with Monk damage with Tashalatora or Ascetic Psion, for a king of smack-like build. Not good with Dex as you'll be increasing your size, optimal with Strength or Wis.