Magically Armed Military

[elliott20]

Here we go again.

The entry for the slaying arrow clearly states


Specific rules trump general ruling!
So, creatures normally immune to the effect still have to make the save.


On that note I remove the apparatus of kwalish from my list of suggesting items.
it has the same problem as the golems. It's not cost effective.

In fact no construct or item useable by only one person should be worth more than 8,500 gp.
And even that only if it is quite good.

We better leave golems doing the job they were invented for. Guarding places :D
I actually think that golems or dragons or the likes really should never be the end all, be all of ones military. There are things like coordination, creating supply lines, communication, etc that are also very important to the creation of an army.

Now granted, per RAW, there are no maintenance costs for golems and the likes. And even military personnel only need food and equipment. But those are hardly realistic costs. (again, bring back to your whole argument about cost effectiveness of certain creatures/items)

[Elana]

It's not the immunity to fort saves, it's the immunity to necromancy. Thee is no specific rule about that. Trumps fort save immune, but not necromancy immune.

Then again, that's at least disputable enough that intent trumps stupidity.

Ah, but it explicitly names constructs.
Constructs normally don't need to make a fort save as they would be immune to necromancy effects.
That is why it was neccesary to state that they still have to make the fort save and if they fail they are destroyed.

[The_Werebear]

Two things, one for each side.

1) Tippy, you never answered what happens when the level 20 Diplomancer shows up and convinces all your wizards to join him.

2) One advantage of Tippy's army that was never mentioned is that it would be nearly impossible to figure out exactly how many golems you were facing. Due to rapid teleportation from one place to another, it would probably look like you may have thousands of golems, not just 10 (in the early stages) or 100 (in the latter). Indeed, this becomes even worse if you number them with huge numbers, and change them occasionally. Even worse the other way around. Number them all 1-5, and lull your enemy into a false sense of security, knowing he only needs to have countermeasures for a few golems, not dozens.

[Arbitrarity]

Diplomancer is like pun-pun.

Look at what happens when gods show up and smack down yo' ***. It's so cheesy it's about the same.

What do you do when I make my army of one first level kobold?

[Mr Pants]

What do you do when I make my army of one first level kobold?

kill the kobold?

[Arbitrarity]

Clearly, you miss the reference. Badly.

[Indon]

Clearly, you miss the reference. Badly.

Ooh, traps are another good idea.

What kinds of deployable traps are viable?

(Okay, so that made me think of a _different_ kobold-related D&D reference; so sue me)

[Emperor Tippy]

Fine.
But a arrow of construct slaying who destroys constructs should stillwork against constructs.
So telling it to be a death effect, like the DMG states it is against living creatures doesn't quite cut it.
(Now if you have a line in that description that claims that this particular golem, is immune to arrows of slaying you have a point. otherwise the fact that the DMG states that it works even against constructs normally immune to such an effect wins)
No. It being a death effect or not has nothing at all to do with it affecting a golem or not. It being a necromancy effect does.


So you insist on the Solars going home after 17 rounds. No problem 3 Solars still managed to off one of the golems.

Which might not be enough to win against your army build over centuries. But the 200,000 golem was still destroyed by the expense of 25,000 gold. Making it a resource ratio of 8:1.

So if your military budget isn't at least 9 times that of your opponent, you have just wasted a lot of money and are now in trouble.

(if it is bigger you have still wasted a lot of money, but still managed to win)

Why if the world would I have my golems fight a solar? They teleport back to base and wait 5 minutes for the solars to have gone home. My force will not attack a superior force when attacking. It won't even fight a powerful but weaker force. Especially if that force will disappear inside of a couple minutes.


An arrow of Golem Slaying is not a death effect. An arrow of slaying is ONLY a death effect if it is keyed to a living creature. This is by RAW. By RAW, what aura a magic item has is irrelevant, except as a way to guess at what it might do when using detect magic.

No. It being a death effect or not is unimportant. It being a necromancy effect is all that matters.


So they're saying "we intended arrows of slaying to affect golems, but we screwed up, and now according to our own interpretation of the rules they don't?"

How is that not an errata?
Because CustServe can't issue errata. It might make it into the next batch, who knows.


Could I get a citation on your claim that celestials don't care whether neutral mortals live or die? And, by extension, that they will allow your army of golems operated by mind-controlled slaves to destroy cities and conquer nations which, presumably, contain at least some good people in them?

Solars are champions of good.

"Solars are the greatest of the angels, usually close attendants to a deity or champions of some cosmically beneficent task."

Will a solar go out of its way to help a human? Sure. If it notices. But they deal with the cosmic struggle of good and evil. Humans killing humans when one side isn't being influenced by an outside evil and neither side is really evil is a sad but unimportant thing.

Now a devil attacking your city, thats different. Or even a lich. Or attacking the city of lawful goodness. But protecting human life is not on a solars Top 100 Things to Do Today List. So if you call one, will it spare 5 minutes to help some humans? Sure. Will it hang around after the attackers retreat? No it has to stop a wizard from summoning a demon 2 nations over.


Here we go again.

The entry for the slaying arrow clearly states


Specific rules trump general ruling!
So, creatures normally immune to the effect still have to make the save.
No. Golems are immune to all Fort saves that don't affect objects. Arrows of Slaying bypass this immunity. Golems are also immune to all necromantic effects. Arrows of Slaying don't bypass this immunity.

It's like trying to scry on a person in a mages sanctum who has mindblank up. You have a special spell that lets you bypass a mages sanctum to scry. Thats good but then mindblank comes into play and you can't scry the persona anyways.


Emperor Tippy, I ask my question again and add more. You could just polymorph dretches you summoned into Rust Monsters and breed them with regular ones, making a rapidly expanding huge army of Half Fiend Rust Monsters.

Please show me some RAW way of doing it.


Ah, but it explicitly names constructs.
Constructs normally don't need to make a fort save as they would be immune to necromancy effects.
That is why it was neccesary to state that they still have to make the fort save and if they fail they are destroyed.


No! No! No!

One benefit of construct saves is not having to make a fortitude save. It doesn't matter what kind of effect it is, a golem doesn't have to make one. Arrows of Slaying say that golems do have to make the Fort Save, bypassing the immunity to fort saves. Another construct trait is immunity to necromantic effects. Arrows of Slaying don't bypass thsi immunity.


Two things, one for each side.

1) Tippy, you never answered what happens when the level 20 Diplomancer shows up and convinces all your wizards to join him.
I send the command word to reset his mind through the telepathic bond.

Programmed Amnesia is wonderful. And a diplomancer can't use another persons telepathic bond to attempt a diplo check against another.


2) One advantage of Tippy's army that was never mentioned is that it would be nearly impossible to figure out exactly how many golems you were facing. Due to rapid teleportation from one place to another, it would probably look like you may have thousands of golems, not just 10 (in the early stages) or 100 (in the latter). Indeed, this becomes even worse if you number them with huge numbers, and change them occasionally. Even worse the other way around. Number them all 1-5, and lull your enemy into a false sense of security, knowing he only needs to have countermeasures for a few golems, not dozens.

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. Thank you Werebear.

[Lapak]

One benefit of construct saves is not having to make a fortitude save. It doesn't matter what kind of effect it is, a golem doesn't have to make one. Arrows of Slaying say that golems do have to make the Fort Save, bypassing the immunity to fort saves. Another construct trait is immunity to necromantic effects. Arrows of Slaying don't bypass thsi immunity.Given that they've said outright that this was not the intent, I honestly think that your argument falls down on this point. It is explicitly intended to be able to destroy constructs such as golems; claiming that it isn't able to do this seems like desperation at best.
I send the command word to reset his mind through the telepathic bond.

Programmed Amnesia is wonderful.Hmm. I'll have to track down this spell, I guess; absolute and permanent mind control seems a little excessive even for a level 9 spell. That said, you've never (to my knowledge) addressed the vulnerability of the man at the very, very top of this hierarchy: Emperor Tippy. I assume you aren't in cold storage, or there's no one to mind the store, so what prevents the Diplomancer from getting to you? Particularly since you're going to be negotiating with someone at some point unless you are in absolute all-out Evil Overlord Hiding In A Box mode.

[The_Werebear]

I send the command word to reset his mind through the telepathic bond.

Programmed Amnesia is wonderful. And a diplomancer can't use another persons telepathic bond to attempt a diplo check against another.

Ok, that works. I guess all you can do is port the Diplomancer in to the King's room and charm him.



Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. Thank you Werebear.

Hey, no problem. If they think you have 10,000 golems because Golem No. 9182 just knocked their village over, it is that much easier to make intimidate checks to get them to shut up.

One other thing you didn't consider Tippy: Emperor Tippy I is a wise and just king, who believes in planning for the future. He gets his country set up on this 130 year plan with excellent security and good budgeting. He has a wizard who volunteered crafting golems, and nigh impenetrable security around the project. Then he chokes to death on a chicken wing in the safety of his own home.

Tippy II takes the throne, and proves to be a total asshat. He is impatient, and yoinks the budget out of the long term military program and spends it on booze, whores, and parties. He takes the 12 constructed golems and uses them to build the Emperor Tippy II memorial bridge. He sacks the wizard in charge of the Golem building project.

I guess what I am trying to say is that even the best laid plans can't compensate for the unexpected things. Or even worse, unfortunate luck with heirs to the throne. It certainly killed the Julio-Claudians.

[Emperor Tippy]

Given that they've said outright that this was not the intent, I honestly think that your argument falls down on this point. It is explicitly intended to be able to destroy constructs such as golems; claiming that it isn't able to do this seems like desperation at best.

No, its not desperation. It's usign the rules for what they do. Just like PaO was never intended to turn you into a War Troll permanently. Or any of the otehr unintended broken rules. Pun-Pun for instance.

And, personally, I believe Arrows of Slaying that effect golems to be a stupid idea for multiple reasons. But that is a different issue.


Hmm. I'll have to track down this spell, I guess; absolute and permanent mind control seems a little excessive even for a level 9 spell. That said, you've never (to my knowledge) addressed the vulnerability of the man at the very, very top of this hierarchy: Emperor Tippy. I assume you aren't in cold storage, or there's no one to mind the store, so what prevents the Diplomancer from getting to you? Particularly since you're going to be negotiating with someone at some point unless you are in absolute all-out Evil Overlord Hiding In A Box mode.

Let's see, what prevents the diplomancer from getting to me? The fact that he can't find me while the invasion is going on for one.

And as I have said numerous times, Programmed Amnesia is the single most broken spell in D&D.


One other thing you didn't consider Tippy: Emperor Tippy I is a wise and just king, who believes in planning for the future. He gets his country set up on this 130 year plan with excellent security and good budgeting. He has a wizard who volunteered crafting golems, and nigh impenetrable security around the project. Then he chokes to death on a chicken wing in the safety of his own home.

Tippy II takes the throne, and proves to be a total asshat. He is impatient, and yoinks the budget out of the long term military program and spends it on booze, whores, and parties. He takes the 12 constructed golems and uses them to build the Emperor Tippy II memorial bridge. He sacks the wizard in charge of the Golem building project.

I guess what I am trying to say is that even the best laid plans can't compensate for the unexpected things. Or even worse, unfortunate luck with heirs to the throne. It certainly killed the Julio-Claudians.

Yeah, random **** happens. But dieing of a chicken bone is something that can be resurrected from.

[The_Werebear]

Meh, call it old age. Still, the basic point is that not everything can be planned for. Sometimes, plans don't survive contact with reality, much less any enemies

Still, as far as plans go, it is a solid one. The only thing I could think of to trump it would be to do a kingdom that raises dragons on a fasttime plane, and I don't have the time myself to try and figure out how to do that one.

[Emperor Tippy]

Arcane Genesis.

But your better off using an epic origin of the species spell to create a fast breeding, incredibly powerful, fully loyal creature and dumping it on a fast time plane.

1 day later 10,000 years have passed on the plane and you have a force of a hundred billion or so. :smallbiggrin:

But that requires epic cheese.

[Gavin Sage]

You know I think this conversation has lost all purpose when a specific rule:


Slaying Arrow

This +1 arrow is keyed to a particular type or subtype of creature. If it strikes such a creature, the target must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or die (or, in the case of unliving targets, be destroyed) instantly. Note that even creatures normally exempt from Fortitude saves (undead and constructs) are subject to this attack. When keyed to a living creature, this is a death effect (and thus death ward protects a target).


Is out right said to not apply because of the broader description the specific effect says to ignore, it has passed rationality.

(And I feel the urge to point out that you can equip a couple thousand common soldiers with enough adamantine crossbow bolts to assure a golem's destruction via critical hits (without critical damage even) at a vast savings. If anyone wants to drag up my post from a few pages back or wants me to repost it)

[The_Werebear]

I'd also have to look up how much Dragon eggs cost. However, I am fairly sure that conditioning (IE, Diplomancing) could make them absolutely loyal as the Golem Force, as well as probably higher in number. Probably couldn't match the mobility, but I would outnumber, and each unit would have a greater creativity and potential to figure out problems quickly. Not to mention they are freaking dragons....

Hell, if one even got old enough, he could start crafting those golems as well.

Still, it is a moot point as I am not going to look all that up and do the calculations.

[Indon]

Does making a golem require a craft check?

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, but none of the DC's exceed 20. At most. MW tools, decently bright wizards, take ten, you're done.

[Skjaldbakka]

No, its not desperation. It's usign the rules for what they do. Just like PaO was never intended to turn you into a War Troll permanently. Or any of the otehr unintended broken rules. Pun-Pun for instance.

Ah, but its Blatantly Obvious that Arrows of Golem slaying are intended to work. You are arguing in circles.


Next point- low level casters with high level wands. There are plenty of low-level spells that are SR: No. Take Orb of Force, for example (which I think is ridiculous, but that is another issue entirely). Put arcane marks on the wands and you can Instant Summons them back if your mage core goes down. It seems rather clear that we are assuming the "King" on both sides is a level 20 Wizard, with all the spells you are assuming to have.

[Elana]

Why if the world would I have my golems fight a solar? They teleport back to base and wait 5 minutes for the solars to have gone home. My force will not attack a superior force when attacking. It won't even fight a powerful but weaker force. Especially if that force will disappear inside of a couple minutes.

Your teleporting scheme is nice. As long as your wizard touches the golem. Unfortunately that makes him a target as well.
(And they will fail a save a lot sooner as they have bad fort saves and a lot less then 54 HD)

Because of the great numbers of golem there are probaly level 9 casters.
So the combat runs like this.
Solar appears wins initiative over the wizard.
He shoots the wizard, wizard is dead.
Solar shoots 3 arrows at golem.
Golem can't fly, so it can either stand around and get shot at and run away.

2nd round.
2nd Solar apears.
Solars should 8 arrows at golem


As the golem is now incapable of doing anything but being a target. (Moving or standing target his choice)

So yes, I think it's kinda obvious that any construct or item worth more than 9,000gp isn't cost effective in a battle scenario of 2 powerfull nations.

You are defeated by Rules As Written and by Rules As Intended.

Not surprisingly as fantasy literature isn't full of golem armies and the rules were written to reflect the fantasy literature :)




Yeah, but none of the DC's exceed 20. At most. MW tools, decently bright wizards, take ten, you're done.
I actually borrowed a version of MM3 to check the Shadesteel golem.
The DC is 30 (armorcrafting)
so his wizard is specialised in making magical armor and golems like this.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Good point!

We want an infinitely-replicating, enslavable (but not _reenslavable_, so maybe trainable or something), _nonintelligent_ creature, ideally.

Edit: A good poor-man's choice for a good magic army is to infect all your troops with lycanthropy. Your army of 1HD peasants just became pretty comparatively awesome.

I had actually been batting that around as a horrifying scenario in a game I am soon to run. I imagine the nation that tries that trick will be spending money not on magic items but suitable places to keep raving beast men every full moon or a means by which to help them gain self control. Of course, when one thinks about the after effects war has on former soldiers... it fits so well it's scary.

[Inyssius Tor]

Awesome, but werebears are always Chaotic Good! Your only problem is convincing them that your side is morally superior to the enemy's.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

That would be the joy of "The Draft". Hell, if you are a soldier in an army, odds are you've either already made that decision or you don't care enough for it to matter. I just love the concept of the army of a wealthy nation facing off against poorly armed and unarmored foes. Just the mental image of the arrogance and confidence bleeding away, replaced by terror as the troops watch their foes roar/hiss/howl in unison as they shift to hybrid form.

[Funkyodor]

Ahem, so now we get to do affect and effect definitions. Constructs are immune from Necromancy Effects, not Necromancy Affects. Normal Necromancy Affects (i.e. Finger of Death) also cause Necromancy Effects (i.e. damage on a successful save). While The Arrow of Construct Slaying might cause a Necromancy Affect, its Effect to unliving targets is a Destruction Effect (not necromancy, magic, death, fire, ice, cold, shadow, light, sonic, lightning, holy, evil, good, lawful, or chaotic) clearly laid out in the rules for said arrow.

Also massive amounts of high hp undead that you are constantly healing with negative energy pulses might be a problem.

[Dervag]

I actually borrowed a version of MM3 to check the Shadesteel golem.
The DC is 30 (armorcrafting)
so his wizard is specialised in making magical armor and golems like this.Big deal. He's [i]supposed to be a specialist. The Tippian Empire kidnapped, brainwashed, and trained this guy from very low levels, remember?


I had actually been batting that around as a horrifying scenario in a game I am soon to run. I imagine the nation that tries that trick will be spending money not on magic items but suitable places to keep raving beast men every full moon or a means by which to help them gain self control. Of course, when one thinks about the after effects war has on former soldiers... it fits so well it's scary.It's worse.

Lycanthropes are much, much more dangerous than any alienated, stressed-out war veteran.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't even try this except in a country with one heck of a lot of silver mines.

[Indon]

I actually borrowed a version of MM3 to check the Shadesteel golem.
The DC is 30 (armorcrafting)
so his wizard is specialised in making magical armor and golems like this.

Eh, it's moot. It says creatures can't be made with Fabricate.

A pity.

So, out of our D&D armies, we have the 100-year Golem plan, an undead empire somewhere around there, a poor nation of OMGWTF Werebears, and the Holy City of Solar Summoning.

Am I missing any distinct fantasy-army raising plans (Mind that fantasy armies generally do put all their eggs in one basket)?


Big deal. He's [i]supposed to be a specialist. The Tippian Empire kidnapped, brainwashed, and trained this guy from very low levels, remember?


I thought the wizards were brainwashed from high levels; if you get them at low levels, it'd be ridiculously expensive to raise them to and beyond level 10.

[Elana]

Ehm, the holy city of solar summoning has a normal standard army.

Those candle of invocation are the plan for defense if some lunatic comes in with armies made out of anything the normal troops have no chance of handling.

Like constructs, powerful undead, or outsiders.

if the normal army can kill it, why waste the limited defensive magic on it?

Magic certainly has impact.
The Field Provision Box for example. cost 2000gp, feeds 15 soldiers for all eternity.
That helps to avoid the had to defend supply lines.

Wands of cure light wounds are of course great.
Let a Bard make an Eternal Wand of Cure light wounds, and your low level wizards can help healing too.


The cheaper a magic item is, the more usefull it becomes for an army.
(That expensive stuff is a lot better for adventurers)

[Skjaldbakka]

This is a nitpick - but Werebears a Lawful Good, IIRC. Which makes them less OMGWTF.

[elliott20]

Eh, it's moot. It says creatures can't be made with Fabricate.

A pity.

So, out of our D&D armies, we have the 100-year Golem plan, an undead empire somewhere around there, a poor nation of OMGWTF Werebears, and the Holy City of Solar Summoning.

Am I missing any distinct fantasy-army raising plans (Mind that fantasy armies generally do put all their eggs in one basket)?



I thought the wizards were brainwashed from high levels; if you get them at low levels, it'd be ridiculously expensive to raise them to and beyond level 10.
None of these armies are very practical for a nation that is of your typical D&D setting variety though. The costs of creating such an army will be too prohibitive and often takes a long time. (That or they can't really be considered a standing army since they won't stick around for more than one battle)

They are cool ideas and would be interesting but they're not always the best fit I think.

[Inyssius Tor]

Well, the OMGWTF Werebear army is actually really easy to make. All you need is a single werebear, and a nation that is on good terms with its inhabitants. In fact, you could easily "bear up" your entire army in less than a week.

[Indon]

Well, the OMGWTF Werebear army is actually really easy to make. All you need is a single werebear, and a nation that is on good terms with its inhabitants. In fact, you could easily "bear up" your entire army in less than a week.

Which is why it's the poor nations' solution.

Another thought would be, what about a nature-oriented nation (like, I dunno, a tribal confederation of wild elves) focusing on druidish military measures? I wonder what that would be like?

[elliott20]

probably a large number of nature ally summon spell scrolls to summon up some muscle, a large number of turning this into trees sort of defense and what not.

[Indon]

probably a large number of nature ally summon spell scrolls to summon up some muscle, a large number of turning this into trees sort of defense and what not.

I wonder how much it would cost to have an awakened animal companion, who then takes levels in Druid and awakens their animal companion, who then takes levels in Druid and awakens their animal companion...

Edit: Another thought. How many evil druids Wild Shaped into rats (or just awakened vermin druids) does it take to make a Druid-Rat swarm?

[Arbitrarity]

You can't awaken your animal companion, according to awaken text. But, you an awaken yourself in wildshape. Repeatedly.

[elliott20]

that's kind of like another leadership cheese though. So I wouldn't really count that.

[Skjaldbakka]

You can't awaken your animal companion, according to awaken text. But, you an awaken yourself in wildshape. Repeatedly.

I thought they fixed that?

[Arbitrarity]

Maybe so. I haven't read recent errata.

[Indon]

Well, you can still go about the forest Awakening damn near every animal you come across.

Edit: You know, that's a really interesting Druid concept: Rather than a Druid who wants to bring nature to civilization, have one that wants to civilize nature!

[elliott20]

owlbears walking around with monocles on? no no no, that's just too silly to contemplate...

Owlbear: "quite"

[Flying Elephant]

How To Breed Half-Fiend Rust Monsters
A Recipe in Six Parts.

1. Find a level seven Wizard.
2. Capture and subdue a female Rust Monster.
3. Have Wizard Cast Summon Monster IV for a male Fiendish Dire Wolf.
4. Cast Polymorph to make the Fiendish Dire Wolf a Rust Monster.
5. Hope the Rust Monster can be impregnated in a half-minute.
6. Lather, rinse, repeat.

It takes a level seven wizard to counter the golems, no specialization or brainwashing required.

[Indon]

5. Hope the Rust Monster can be impregnated in a half-minute.


Well, by RAW, nothing can ever get pregnant. </joke about the absurdity of RAW arguments>

[Skjaldbakka]

Well, by RAW, nothing can ever get pregnant*cough* there is a certain book . . .

[Indon]

*cough* there is a certain book . . .

You know, I read part of that book for AD&D (if it's what I'm thinking). I didn't know they updated it. Is it actually WotC?

[PaladinBoy]

Please don't talk too much about that book. We don't want the thread to get locked.

Also, the quotes I'm responding to are a little old. Forgive me; I was away at a summer camp with no on or off base liberty for the last week. If I'd asked to use the one computer for foruming, I would have gotten yelled down.


Ironically enough, given the name, I find myself wanting PaladinBoy to be my spymaster.

Thank you. *bows*

IRL, I'm built like a stick....... my only advantages in a fight are my run speed and my intelligence. So If I want to win, I have to think up of clever and possibly dishonorable ways to do it. And it is a little fun to come up with clever stuff.



All the next stuff aside, this'll probably be my last post trying to counter Tippy. It's more fun to discuss more than one army suggestion, so I'll put mine back out there at the end of this post.


Um, I'm not buying from a state actor. I'm buying from a merchant who thinks he is selling to a lich on another plane. Why exactly do you think he cares? If shadesteel golems invade Sigil the Lady of Pain kills them and whoever decided to send them.

See, that gets to the point of you knowing it's an actor from my state. And I believe it was you that said that it's easy to block divination. Worst case, I pretend to be a supplier to the merchant you're buying from. He then sells it to you.


It's a plan that is utterly unbelievable. A merchant who believes he knows who he is selling to and lives in a city that is immune to attack by virtue of being home to the most powerful being in the universe is worried about what his buyer is doing with shadesteel?

The merchant isn't worried. I'm worried. I'm pretending to be a new merchant, with some possibly stolen shadesteel that I want to unload fast. Thus I'm offering a discount. You might penetrate it if you probed deep enough, but you're spending your time and money building golems.


You can't by RAW coup de grace yourself, it is an action that is used against an opponent.

You also fail to account for knock out poison, grapples, and me just bashing your head in with a sword (so long as you are above -10 it's good)

The RAW argument makes no literal sense in this case. As for the rest, using alchemical tooth capsules with poison or even using transmutation magic to put capsules deeper in would probably work.


Um not really. In a world with detect thoughts it becomes very easy to find spies. And even in the real world they are found fairly often. You are talking about saturating my nation with spies. More field agents than the US had in Russia at the height of the cold war.

Again, I could swear you said it was easy to block detection magic. I admit that in this case, that would probably stand out, though.

Programmed Amnesia would still work though. And..... ah...... the Spymaster from Complete Adventurer, pages 77-78. Its capstone ability foils divination magic, revealing only information appropriate to his cover identity.


Then you don't have a military to act on the information and I'm still ok.

When I decide to activate my spies and start badly screwing with large parts of your nation in order to put a stop to you, you might change your tune.

For example, I could have my spies start burning crop fields and seeding magical blights among your food supply. I make or buy food myself, and sell it to you at a discount. Then I threaten to cut the supplies off. I prepare what military I do have to start defending my nation and threatening yours. Your conventional army can't fight without food, your golems are too few and far between to both defend your nation and attack mine, and you don't have enough wizards and clerics to feed your entire nation. (I would make sure of that last if I had to.) I spread rumors in the populace that if they revolt and swear alliegance to my nation, then the food will return. It might be a drain on my treasury, but it will also be a drain on yours. And if I'm clever with spy placement, I might even be able to engage in some of that corrupt official siphoning that appears to be commonplace in your nation, and fund it out of your treasury.


Ok, your this paranoid nation that specializes in espionage. DO you really think the rest of the world will take you seriously when I give simple, logical explanations for all of it? Chances are if you really are that big in the intel thing all of the other nations are getting annoyed at you as well. And maybe it's getting time to act against you and end it.

If I'm smart about it, they're much less likely to realize the exact extent to which I focus on espionage. And the fact that I can nail some of their black projects ought to convince them that I can nail yours.


Again you assume information that you have no right to have. Why do you assume that I am going to extremes to hide information? Because my top people are protected from mind reading and I use it in secure areas? I expect that every other nation does it as well. It is nothing amazing.

You're describing an elaborate money-laundering scheme and imply that my agents won't realize there are a million layers to it as they try to penetrate it?


Yeah, so just how many mages capable of casting 8th level spells do you have lieing around? And hiding programs for 20 years is nothign spectacular. The US hid numerous ones from the best intelligence service in the world. And that intelligence service had the equivalent of hundreds of billions of dollars just devoted to finding out what the US was doing.

You seem to be assuming a rather high magic level in the campaign. Worst case, I can buy the spell form a wizard in one of these planar metropolises.

As for the hiding programs bit, I can assume that the US has dozens of special secret military projects going on at one time. So far, we've seen 1 for your nation, and it's a pretty big chunk of your military budget IIRC. I don't have to spread myself out that much.


What? That my king is kinda inept, that my top general - while loyal and eager- is a bit stupid at being a general-, that the crowns accountant is skimming tax money off for his own personal funds, all of it is stuff that is fine for you to know.

As long as my spies are digging beneath the surface, they're not going to stop with the gold there looking for. I really can't say what else I'll uncover about your nation.


Um, what new economic plan? The money is still being spread out over all projects and since the old account retired we got a new one. He appears to be skimming money.

I was making a point, not saying you had a new economic plan. That being that the more you try to hide something, the more it becomes obivous that it's something you don't want me to know. By extension, it's probably something I want to know.


Oh, I would suitably chastise him. Perhaps exile him from the nation and claim his entire shipping fleet as compensation. He would of course manage to leave with quite a bit of money that he had safely out of the nation. A good 20 million or so gold I should imagine. You here rumors that he wants revenge and is working on a plan to get it, some secret weapon. You see that he starts spending vast amounts of gold around the planes, and he moved to sigil.

Thank you for giving me an excellent way to fund the whole project. He is off in sigil spending and making gold. He becomes a planar business man. Buying and selling all kinds of things. Thanks for letting me slash the price on shadesteel.

You seem to think that I'll accept the obvious answer here. I wouldn't. I'd investigate him. Either his precautions are as extensive as the Tippian Empire's, in which case something's going on, or they're not, and I penetrate them and find no shadesteel golem army.



Anyway, my army..... I don't have exact cost figures, but what does everyone think?

The primary strike force consists of six Lyrandar airships, with level 10 pilots and level 6 first mates. Between an airship's Airworthiness, the pilot's ranks, and the first mate's aid another, that should reliably allow flying through a hurricane. The airships are specially modified to enable easier carpet bombing.

They're covered by three squadrons(36) skylords from the BoED. (If you don't like that book, it's easy to modify the exalted flavor of the class and turn it into something more mundane.) They ignore weather when flying, but the total level on that comes out to something like 10-11. Their job is to use their archery to shoot down flying enemies that try to beat the weather or ambush the force. They can also carry large rocks to aid in bombing.

The air force is aided by six army groups. Each one consists of two companies of 50 foot soldiers and 50 archers, with a few mages armed with creation magic and wands to aid in constructing fortifications and hurricane shelters.

Also, we have three special forces groups attached to each army group, with 5 rangers and/or rogues per group. Their job is to take point and attempt to neutralize enemy mages that try and counter my weather control. They'd be experienced in wilderness survival, but I'd probably give them a magic item for food so they didn't have to try it in the middle of a hurricane.

So, a numbers breakdown gives:
Airships: 6 total
1 level 10 pilot per ship (6 total)
1 level 6 first mate per ship (6 total)
30 level 1 experts per ship (180 total)

Skylords: 6 level 9 per airship (36 total)

Army groups: 2 per airship (12 total)
50 level 1 fighters per group (footsoldiers) (600 total)
50 level 1 fighters per group (archers) (600 total)
5 level 7 wizards per group (60 total)

Special forces: 3 per army group (36 total)
3 level 5 rangers per group (108 total)
2 level 5 rogues per group (72 total)

Total manpower:
6 level 10
36 level 9
60 level 7
6 level 6
180 level 5
1200 level 1
1488 personnel

Tactics:
This army is much better at holding terrain then advancing. In the best case, it realizes that an attack is imminent and has time to construct fortifications and shelters and have the Lyrandars use control weather. In that case, half the skylords fly low patrol to take out hostile ground threats that are braving the weather, the other half guard the airships, and the airships make carpet bombing runs on the weather-paralyzed enemy army. The army deals with any threats that get to their shelters/fortifications. The special forces teams scout the enemy camps and try to kill/interfere with hostile mages.

If the force is trying to advance and take territory, then the special forces teams take point and try to give advance warning of an incoming enemy. At that point, the strategy takes a similar path to the one described above. If they don't give enough warning (the force is ambushed), then the airships and skylords fly low patrol to cover the army as they set up their shelters. The airships go for carpet bombing, and any crew that can be spared are given bows and told to launch volleys. The skylord use pinpoint bombing and archery to destroy siege weapons or any magical threat to the airships.

The force can be divided up into as many as six major subgroups, and can be divided even more depeding on the situation.

The best counter to this is an undead or construct army which doesn't need food and is better against weather than humanoids. Still, in hurricane-force winds, you might have trees being ripped up and battering your forces, your forces being tossed around like pinballs, or simply your forces unable to move forward in the face of huge winds. Whereas my air forces retains all of its mobility and all of its strike ability.

It's not perfect, but in the Eberron Campaign Setting, it's not unreasonable to assume that, say, House Lyrandar could muster a force like that if they really tried. They wouldn't try, for political and economic reasons, but they could.

[Skjaldbakka]

Its also worth noting that falling damage ignores DR (dropping rocks on golems from airships is an effective way to incapacitate them, since they can't fly effectively or make the spot check to notice a falling boulder in a hurricane).

[Jack_Simth]

Something else of note:

You can't drain money from an economy indefinitely.

With most military spending, you're paying locals - swordsmiths, soldiers, armorsmiths, farmers, and so on; taxes go right back to the populace.

With making Shadesteel Golems, and purchasing materials not only out of country, but off-plane, you're going to end up with a bit of an economic depression.

However, the D&D rules don't really support economic modeling, so it won't matter too much.

[Armads]

And while you get your massive golem army, a 1st level human commoner destroys all your golems. A venerable human commoner with just a masterwork craft (weaponsmithing tool), Int 14, Skill focus (craft weaponsmithing), and 4 ranks in craft (weaponsmithing).

He crafts infinite quarterstaves in 1 round, due to the cost of quarterstaves being 0, and thus, the time taken is 0. He automatically succeeds on the DC 12 craft (weaponsmithing) check.
He has
+4 ranks
+3 skill focus
+2 masterwork tool
+2 Int modifier
= +11

As a result, he creates infinite quarterstaves, which cause a black hole due to their major mass (infinite mass in 0 seconds).

Alternatively, you could get a 9th level commoner, teach him Draconic, and give him this feat:
Dragon Cohort (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragon_Cohort,all)

Since the ECL of the draconic cohort is treated as 3 lower, you can get a level 10 dragonwrought kobold as your cohort (treated as a 7th level cohort due to the Dragon Cohort feat). That kobold takes Dragon Cohort, gets an 11th level dragonwrought kobold, who repeats this, and eventually, you mass your level 100+ cohorts to go wipe out the world. They do not even need to be commoners, so you can give them class levels too.

[Skjaldbakka]

which cause a black hole due to their major mass (infinite mass in 0 seconds).

Which doesn't exist in RAW, and thus does nothing. I don't believe we had gotten to the point of breaking the system in our theoretical discussions, just the assumed setting.

[Armads]

Which doesn't exist in RAW, and thus does nothing. I don't believe we had gotten to the point of breaking the system in our theoretical discussions, just the assumed setting.

Technically, humans don't have arms in RAW, and thus can't wield weapons. Also, according to RAW, humans are not player races, as they have no listed Level Adjustment. Every other playable race has a listed level adjustment (and an entry in the Monster Manual).

EDIT: He could also craft an infinitely big quarterstaff and drop them on a shadesteel golem, dealing damage based off Improvised Weapon Rules in CWar. Since he can craft infinite of them, and the DC doesn't go up with the size going up, he is guaranteed to hit. Just cast a Fly spell on him (it costs 150 gp to destroy the army, following NPC spellcasting rules) to get him to fly above them.

[Skjaldbakka]

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your infinte quarterstaff scenario.

[Grizzled Gryphon]

Paladin Boy, that is an interesting army idea you have. However, I see a few problems. One I am not so sure is a problem, but it might be, so I will throw it out there.

You are going to control the weather and cause hurricane force winds. So, in all respects, a hurricane. Cool idea, as this will seriuosly mess with any given enemy force. Unfortunately, this will do a number on your troops, as well. Your Archers will be all but useless. The only use they will have is they will be targets for any enemy able to act in the storm. As you mentioned before, the debris and winds will do a number on any force out in the storm. This will happen to your forces, too. Yes, the Stormlords are immune to the weather, but they are still quite susceptible to the flying trees you mentioned. I don't know if the Storm Lord class actualy mentions they can use ranged weapons without penalty from severe winds, but if not, their archery will be useless as well.

Then, you have the airships. They, too, will be susceptable to any flying trees (and other debris, of course). Of course, if they fly high enough, this won't be a problem, but then they will not be able to see there targets, as visiblity in a hurricane is, at best, as few hundred feet. Then, they have to target the area with their boulders, but doing so will be next to impossible thanks to the winds blowing the boulders off course.

Of course, magic could deal with these issues, but that gets real expensive, real fast.

[Elana]

The infinite quartestaff theory has a problem.

Making a quaterstaff has a DC of 5.
With the low cost it makes sense to do daily checks.

Now if your result is higher than 5 you needed less than a day.

If your example commoner takes 10 on the task he can make 4 quarterstaffs a day, and not an infinite number, sorry.



On another note, I herby official declare that my city protection uses scrolls of gate and not candle of invocations.

They might be slightly more expensive, but have the advantage of not having alignment constrictions.

(Solars are nice against constructs, but what if the other side uses planar binding spells to send a troop of Astral Devas against me. I don't think a Solar would appreciate being forced to fight other Angels.
Far better to get some Pit Fiends then, and pay them for their help.)

[Armads]

No, the time is 0, due to the cost being 0. 0 time = 0 seconds, thus, I can automatically create the quarterstaff. The time taken is 0 weeks, which is 0 seconds, due to 0x7 days = 0 days.



If your example commoner takes 10 on the task he can make 4 quarterstaffs a day, and not an infinite number, sorry

Anyway, if that is the case, I just craft an infinitely big quarterstaff and drop it. The DC and the cost and the time is still the same.

[Indon]

Yes, yes, we are all aware that the RAW is silly and that people only strictly adhere to its' silliness when it benefits them (otherwise, monks would always have a -4 to hit from being nonproficient with their unarmed attack).

Hmm, monks...

I wonder about the effectiveness, comparatively, of a special forces unit of monks. The conditions by which they could be called upon would be rather limited, but it strikes me that having a monastery in your country would be pretty cheap for the government.

Sacred Vows are also free, come to think of it, and you could have applicable non-monks as well. I wonder if the state would qualify as a charity for the purposes of Vow of Poverty...

[mostlyharmful]

Yup, Lawful alignment and there ain't no organization more lawful than the one that makes the laws.

the poverty vow also makes perfect sense for the monks fluff, i tried it once in a high campaign, it was ridiculously good, take human monk and give the extra first level feat Nymphs Kiss, hugh saves, loads of skills and in a low magic/low-magic-item campaign you own the universe (except you don't obviously cause that would make you suck)

[hewhosaysfish]

Another problem with the infinite quarterstaves trick is the isssue of materials. "What materials?!", I hear you cry, "A quarter staff requires 0 gp worth of materials and fresh air costs nothing, so I can make staves out of fresh air!"

Incorrect. Run through that last statement again: Since the raw materials for a staff cost 0 gp, does it necessarily follow that everything and anything that is worth 0 gp can be used to make staves? Fresh air, moonbeams and belly-button fluff? You might as well say that, since the raw materials for a longsword cost 5 gp, then you can make one out of 250 chickens, a pound of salt or 10 winter blankets.

The raw materials for a sword include iron/steel, coal/coke, etc. Not chickens.
The raw material(s) for a staff is a long stick. Not moonbeams.
The time to craft on is zero, though. Take on long stick and BAMF! You have a basic quarterstaff.

[Indon]

Another problem with the infinite quarterstaves trick is the isssue of materials. "What materials?!", I hear you cry, "A quarter staff requires 0 gp worth of materials and fresh air costs nothing, so I can make staves out of fresh air!"


Well, if you're going to approach it that way, it's potentially even more powerful.

-What are quarterstaves made out of? Wood.

-What do you need to make a quarterstaff? Wood.

DM: "You come before the palisade."
Player: "...is it made out of wood?"
DM: "Yes, but I don't see..."
Player: "I turn it into a pile of quarterstaves and climb over it!"

(A palisade could, theoretically, even be made out of a series of long sticks!)

[Gavin Sage]

@hewhosaysfish:

Shush. Don't you know that for this forum GP is the only thing that matters and everything is infinitely availible so long as one has the gold for it. Taking things to be actually unavailible can absolutely destroy some peoples way of thinking.

[Elana]

No, the time is 0, due to the cost being 0. 0 time = 0 seconds, thus, I can automatically create the quarterstaff. The time taken is 0 weeks, which is 0 seconds, due to 0x7 days = 0 days.



Anyway, if that is the case, I just craft an infinitely big quarterstaff and drop it. The DC and the cost and the time is still the same.


just checked the PHB and wonder oh wonder, the price isn't "0" it's "-"

And we all know that "-" means not available.

So quarterstaffs can't be manufactured

[mostlyharmful]

they can't, take the materials needed to produce a quaterstaff (one long stick) and try to do something to make it more quarterstaff-y. all you can do is make it all pretty and balenced and swanky ie. make it masterwork.

[Indon]

they can't, take the materials needed to produce a quaterstaff (one long stick) and try to do something to make it more quarterstaff-y. all you can do is make it all pretty and balenced and swanky ie. make it masterwork.

The odd thing is, it costs 300 gold to make a quarterstaff masterwork.

Think about that for a moment. That's enough gold to make, like, 30 longswords, materials and all.

What kinds of materials are you using to do this?

[elliott20]

popsicle sticks and superglue.

[mostlyharmful]

personally my sorcerers quaterstaff (that he always refers to as his boomstick even though it has no magic) has an enormous wacking great ruby embedded in the top, completely pointless and superfluous but perfectly in character.

[Jack_Simth]

The odd thing is, it costs 300 gold to make a quarterstaff masterwork.

Think about that for a moment. That's enough gold to make, like, 30 longswords, materials and all.

What kinds of materials are you using to do this?

It's worse than that - that 300 gp is for one end of the quarterstaff. Making the entire thing Masterwork costs 600 gp.

As for what it's made of...

"Only the Finest imported Swiss Oak, carefully seasoned and cured in a hickory-fired oven at precisely 312.2 degrees Fahrenheit for a period of 20 days, meticulously pared down to size with a diamond-edged knife (which wears out in the process)."

Or something.

[Indon]

It's worse than that - that 300 gp is for one end of the quarterstaff. Making the entire thing Masterwork costs 600 gp.


*boggle*

Maybe a big gem on the tip really is what does it...

[Mike_G]

Yeah, I've always loved that rule.

PC: How much for a quarterstaff?

Weaponsmith: It's a stick. It's free.

PC: Hmm.. Ok, I do have some dough to spend. How's about a well balanced one? Out of, like, harder wood. With, like a metal cap on the end so it won't splinter? Or some metal bands?

Weaponsmith: Oh, wait, you want a really good stick?

That'll be 600 gp.

[mostlyharmful]

just try not to think about masterwork slings, a really well balenced piece of leather? at least staffs can have wonking great diamonds, a sling really is just a leather strap.

[Indon]

just try not to think about masterwork slings, a really well balenced piece of leather? at least staffs can have wonking great diamonds, a sling really is just a leather strap.

Dragon Leather.

[SMDVogrin]

It's worse than that - that 300 gp is for one end of the quarterstaff. Making the entire thing Masterwork costs 600 gp.

As for what it's made of...

"Only the Finest imported Swiss Oak, carefully seasoned and cured in a hickory-fired oven at precisely 312.2 degrees Fahrenheit for a period of 20 days, meticulously pared down to size with a diamond-edged knife (which wears out in the process)."

Or something.

Well, for one, I assume that a masterwork Quarterstaff would be of the type which has metal caps on the ends, and possibly metal reinforcing bands...

[Elana]

Or it is made completely out of Aluminium.
(Steel would be to cheap, we talk about 200 gp material costs here)


And it's not easy to get that much Aluminium.
(No Wall of Aluminium spells, no Aluminium rocks falling from the sky, there isn't even an elemental plane for that)

[elliott20]

it's funny how talking about fantasy military would lead us to talking about really how ridiculous D&D rules can be.