Monk for raw damage (and feat advice)

[Specter]

Greetings Playground,

Long story short, I'll be making a human monk who intends to be the greatest warrior in the universe. He's a classic domineering guy a la Vegeta. But for that to happen, he has to, you know, defeat dudes.
Stats are as follows: ST12, DX16, CO14, WI14, IN8, CH10

How can a monk optimize his damage?

Ive thought about a) going Magic Initiate for Hex (with the trouble of not having decent Charisma for ranged cantrips), and b) grabbing two fighter levels for Action Surge (the DM would let Defense apply without armor). Any other suggestions/imput are welcome.

ALSO, I'm unsure of what feat to grab at 1st level. I'm thinking of Tough to make up for the average CON, but again, input is welcome.

[Waazraath]

I asked a similair question last year, maybe there is some useful stuff in the answers I got: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?440471-High-damage-monk-how

[RulesJD]

Two Easiest Ways:

1. Get Hex somehow.

2. 1 level dip War Cleric for Divine Favor

That's pretty much it. You can also look into level dipping Rogue for Sneak Attack (Swashbuckler if you're going Warlock dip for Hex as well). But that's tangential.

1 level Cleric dip is nice after you get Monk 5 for Multi-attack. Divine Favor (on a Monk) is generally the better damaging spell because you only burn your Bonus Action once, not every time you need to move it from one target to another. One Flurry of Blows with Divine Favor on easily pops it over Hexes average damage outside of anything against a big sack of HP BBEG.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Greetings Playground,

Long story short, I'll be making a human monk who intends to be the greatest warrior in the universe. He's a classic domineering guy a la Vegeta. But for that to happen, he has to, you know, defeat dudes.
Stats are as follows: ST12, DX16, CO14, WI14, IN8, CH10

How can a monk optimize his damage?

Ive thought about a) going Magic Initiate for Hex (with the trouble of not having decent Charisma for ranged cantrips), and b) grabbing two fighter levels for Action Surge (the DM would let Defense apply without armor). Any other suggestions/imput are welcome.

ALSO, I'm unsure of what feat to grab at 1st level. I'm thinking of Tough to make up for the average CON, but again, input is welcome.

First off, ditch the Str 12 and give him Wis 16, Str is irrelevant to a monk. I've thought about a "MAX POWER" monk in terms of DPR. Try this out:
Long Death Monk 12/Hunter Ranger 3/Swashbuckler Rogue 5
Human Variant
Str 10
Dex 16 (20)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16 (20)
Chr 8

Start with Lucky feat which is an incredible life-saver. Con 14 is plenty high for a monk, you don't need to worry about more hit points because you will be getting plenty temp hp as a long death monk and you will never be sticking around for people to hit you with fancy footwork from the swashbuckler.

3d6 sneak attack/turn +1d6 hunter's mark/hit +1d8 Colossus Slayer/turn +2 damage from dueling style with a monk weapon is gonna add on to your monk damage real nice.

Look at these average DPR numbers:
Let's take a Level 20 Open Hand Monk with 20 Dex (+5 damage) and 1d10 martial arts, not doing flurry of blows, we have 3 attacks for 30 DPR.

Now our Monk 12/Ranger 3/Rogue 5. We have 1d8 martial arts with 20 Dex (+5 damage) for 3 attacks with DPR of 27 +9 (hunter's mark) +9 (sneak attack) +4 (colossus slayer) +4 damage for dueling style with monk weapon (that's for only 2 attacks since your bonus action has to always be an unarmed strike) for a total of 53 DPR! That's quite a boost!

"But wait!" you say, "what about the Open Hand Monk's Quivering Palm?" So let's factor that in, you can deliver Quivering Palm on a hit and then spend an action the next turn to deal the damage, that is, if they save, if they fail they automatically die. QP does 10d10 necrotic on a save, it's impossible to deduce how much damage you are doing if you auto-kill because that's dependent on the critter you are killing.

So one round at 30 DPR that puts on the QP, and the next turn to activate it for 50 DPR (or greater if kill?). That averages out to 80 damage over 2 rounds or 40 DPR, still lower than our monk/ranger/rogue doing 53 DPR without having to spend any ki to do it!

Obviously that Quivering Palm can be a much bigger game changer if a big bad boss fails its save, but we are thinking about average DPR that a monk can do, and a monk 12/ranger 3/rogue 5 is gonna dish it out.

[numerek]

Long Death Monk 12/Hunter Ranger 3/Swashbuckler Rogue 5

After having played a warlock I know that hex can require alot of bonus actions to move around so I don't recommend hunter's mark for the following reasons:
This only works for 3 hours a day since you are essentially a 2 level caster and you need to maintain concentration
and like others have said, you have to spend a bonus action to cast and more bonus actions to retarget.
I actually prefer bless vs divine favor because it ups your saves and it effects two other players but if you can get someone else to be responsible for bless then divine favor frees up your bonus action after casting but it only lasts 10 rounds so most likely won't be able to be active for more than one fight. So I wouldn't spend any levels or feats getting any spells unless you know your dm is only going to make you do 3 or less fights a day.

I also don't recommend long death monk since this build is about raw damage, open hand give you one way at level 3 to increase damage via flurry and a fail dex save to knock them prone then you have advantage on your other attack and possibly other team mates as well.

I haven't worked out everything yet but what I've been working on is
open hand monk 6\ battle master or champion fighter 3 \ assassin swashbuckler rogue 11
Champion works for every attack all day long, battle master gives you a big boost every short rest both get you dueling style and action surge
assassin give you early nova, swashbuckler lets you sneak attack by yourself without advantage.
You can swap more rogue levels for monk but that would be more for control cause stun vs prone doesn't do anything for your damage.
it take 5 levels to up your d6s to d8 which is only 4 damage per round average if every attack hits and you did flurry of blows
in those same levels rogue ups your damage 10.5 without even knowing what your bonus action is and only one of two hits have to land.

similar damage calculation: 3d6+15+6d6+4 = 50.5 damage not including battle master and there are two chances to make the guy fall prone when you use flurry of blows

if you rolled high stats you could go with some more mad builds

6 open hand monk / oath breaker paladin 7 / battle master fighter 4 / assassin rogue 3

for this build you would want starting stats easiest to achieve with half elf
str 13 dex 18 con ? wis 13 int ? cha 16
and end with stats
str 13 dex 20 con ? wis 13 int ? cha 20

every short rest damage calculation
6d6+60+8+2d6+4d8=114

burning 5 spells
6d6+60+8+2d6+4d4+11d8+4d8=173.5

surprise round
12d6+60+8+4d6+8d4+22d8+8d8=279

if you want the build to have the most levels in monk vs other classes transfer 2 rogue level to monk you could use that extra ability score improvement to have lower starting stats

[SharkForce]

monks are not really the masters of damage dealing. they're much better at making sure the damage they do gets applied to the right target (which generally has less HP anyways, so it all works out).

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I also don't recommend long death monk since this build is about raw damage, open hand give you one way at level 3 to increase damage via flurry and a fail dex save to knock them prone then you have advantage on your other attack and possibly other team mates as well.


All monks get flurry of blows, and Open Hand doing the prone thing on one of its flurry's only gives it advantage on the last flurry attack, that doesn't "increase damage", it only increases the chance to hit. By the time your monk gets stunning strike, which is sooo much better than flurry (or knocking someone prone), you'd be crazy not to spend your ki on stunning strike instead.

The one thing Open Hand has over Long Death is Quivering Palm, and that's at level 17 which most multiclass builds are not going to get to. Long Death Monk's abilities at levels 3, 6, and 11 kick ass over Open Hand's.

[djreynolds]

Greetings Playground,

Long story short, I'll be making a human monk who intends to be the greatest warrior in the universe. He's a classic domineering guy a la Vegeta. But for that to happen, he has to, you know, defeat dudes.
Stats are as follows: ST12, DX16, CO14, WI14, IN8, CH10

How can a monk optimize his damage?

Ive thought about a) going Magic Initiate for Hex (with the trouble of not having decent Charisma for ranged cantrips), and b) grabbing two fighter levels for Action Surge (the DM would let Defense apply without armor). Any other suggestions/imput are welcome.

ALSO, I'm unsure of what feat to grab at 1st level. I'm thinking of Tough to make up for the average CON, but again, input is welcome.

There are of course multiclass dips that can aid a monk.

1st look at your stats cleric, rogue, ranger, fighter, and druid are most likely the easiest to turn to. But every level dipped is a level you are not advancing your unarmed strikes and not closing in on that 14 level diamond soul ability.

Let's look what rogue does for you
1 level- you expertise and can easily sneak attack with a dagger, short sword, or bow if you have it.
2- cunning action is nice because it doesn't cost a KI point to disengage or dash
3- swashbuckler pretty much allows you to disengage from your single opponent you just attacked, allowing you now to use that bonus action to flurry of blows and move away
4 ASI
5 uncanny dodge a nice reaction versus 1 attack

Ranger gives you more than you think
2 levels grab hunter's mark, some other spells, another skill, martial weapons and archery style, +2 to hit with a longbow or short bow... this can really open up once you get 2 attacks as you can easily move in and attack and then turn and shoot somebody afar or vice versa.
3 horde breaker is a free attack vs an adjacent opponent, not bad

Cleric (war cleric) gives you access to shield of faith and divine favor, healing, a nice cantrip sacred flame radiant damage based on your wisdom DC which will be high, but it will cost you an attack

fighter gives you archery style, maybe dueling style (DM dependent) and action surge
EK gives you access to the shield spell despite your low intelligence... awesome
Champion gives crit
BM gives your 4 maneuvers based on short rest

All are very nice and if I were you and wanted to select one of these, fighter will give you con saves if selected 1st and cleric will give you wisdom save proficiency, you have strength and dex to begin until level 14

I prefer wood elf for mask of the wild, long bow access, dark vision, dex and wis, and fey ancestry

But again all these classes slow your progression down, the mobile feat IMO allows you punch someone and leave to punch someone else without provoking an AoO, this will save KI points for FOB without 3 levels of swashbuckler.

5th, 11th, 17th are when your damage increases with martial arts and 6th level for magic fists and feet

So look into the mobile feat and grabbing a bow to compliment your high dexterity, 1 level of war cleric will give divine favor which lasts 1 minute and does not waste your bonus action on moving it and is radiant damage.

[N810]

Well if you are going to RP a Sayan, you might want to go Sun Soul Monk.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454935-Sun-Soul-Monk

[Dalebert]

Can confirm that monk does not feel like a DPS class. I feel you really need to dip some other things to improve that but if you're primary goal is to be the greatest warrior with amazing DPS, monk is just probably not the way to go for your primary class. It might make more sense to mix and match various melee classes with just enough monk to get FoB.

BTW, why do you have a 12 str?

[Specter]

Answering everyone briefly:

As for multiclassing, I'm split between Warlock, Ranger, Fighter and Cleric. Cleric seems the most straightforward solution, but I'm not quite sure if the flavor would be fitting. Ranger/Fighter would be nice, problem with it would be essentially wasting the first level to get to the second. Warlock would be good, but would mean boosting some Charisma, and I've been traumatized by that multiclass.

Yes, I know monks aren't the best damage dealers. Trying to work around that.

I'm also aware that Strenght is not optimal, but I find it lame for a Monk to have a negative score, especially one that's supposed to be strong. But I'm considering dropping it to 10.

Lucky is a great feat, but totally opposed to my character, who has been down and out for most of his life (I didn't rank this as optimization because of these flavor bits). Mobile is a solid choice, but the hitting-and-running bit is already going to be overdone by other characters (rogue, ranger) so I'm kinda forced to stand my ground.

As for feats, I've been considering:

Tough - The only dude with more HP than me is the ranger, and he's an archer.

Sentinel - I've been thinking about a reaction use other than Deflect Missiles, would it be a good idea?

[Dalebert]

but the hitting-and-running bit is already going to be overdone by other characters (rogue, ranger) so I'm kinda forced to stand my ground.

Are you the group's tank? Oh dear. I just don't find unarmored defense to be sufficient for tanking. Tough might buy you an extra hit or two but hard to see it making up for the AC.


Sentinel - I've been thinking about a reaction use other than Deflect Missiles, would it be a good idea?

It seems best for tanky types who hit hard since it requires you stay adjacent to benefit, it reduces their speed to zero (thus making you a prime target), and it gives you maybe one extra hit a turn. I heard it's a great rogue feat for this reason due to all the sneak attack.

[GlenSmash!]

Monks maximize damage by stunlocking monsters. This increases the entire party's damage not just the Monk's

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Monks maximize damage by stunlocking monsters. This increases the entire party's damage not just the Monk's

A very good point.

[numerek]

All monks get flurry of blows, and Open Hand doing the prone thing on one of its flurry's only gives it advantage on the last flurry attack, that doesn't "increase damage", it only increases the chance to hit. By the time your monk gets stunning strike, which is sooo much better than flurry (or knocking someone prone), you'd be crazy not to spend your ki on stunning strike instead.

The one thing Open Hand has over Long Death is Quivering Palm, and that's at level 17 which most multiclass builds are not going to get to. Long Death Monk's abilities at levels 3, 6, and 11 kick ass over Open Hand's.

You can do bonus action attacks at any time so you can prone the opponent on your first hit of the turn and have advantage on the remaining (possibly 3) attacks. It also increases chance to critical but damage is raw * chance to hit so I'm pretty sure most people agree that increasing chance to hit and critical increases damage. flurry gives you the chance to prone two enemies for 1 ki.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

You can do bonus action attacks at any time so you can prone the opponent on your first hit of the turn and have advantage on the remaining (possibly 3) attacks.

This does not work. You cannot bonus action flurry of blows at any time. As per the PHB:
FLURRY OF BLOWS:
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your
turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed
strikes as a bonus action.

You have to do your attack action (whether that's one attack or two with Extra Attack) first before you can do flurry of blows. So the most you could get advantage on is one attack with your monk, assuming you knocked the enemy prone on the first flurry attack. Stunning strike is just so much better because the stun condition is much more harmful than being prone.

[numerek]

This does not work. You cannot bonus action flurry of blows at any time. As per the PHB:
FLURRY OF BLOWS:
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your
turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed
strikes as a bonus action.

You have to do your attack action (whether that's one attack or two with Extra Attack) first before you can do flurry of blows. So the most you could get advantage on is one attack with your monk, assuming you knocked the enemy prone on the first flurry attack. Stunning strike is just so much better because the stun condition is much more harmful than being prone.

I would say that the wording could be interpreted many ways but in general in 5e you declare the actions you are going to do then you can do them in any order.

"Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before? The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip. You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action specifies when it must take place (PH, 189)."
There is one example of this type of ruling from wizards.com (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016)

I think the intent of the wording of flurry of blows is that you are supposed to make the decision to use flurry of blow before you know the results of your regular attacks. The timing is for spending the ki not when the attacks take place.

[Zalabim]

The thing with multiclassing a monk is that more Ki is almost always going to be useful. At level 12, you can do one stunning strike and one flurry per turn for 6 turns before having to rest. At level 20, you can go for 10 turns or go for 2 stunning strikes and one flurry for ~7 turns. There's always room for more stuns.

For dealing raw damage, Fangs of the Fire Snake (4 Elements) and Touch of Long Death (Or whatever it's called) are the fastest ways to spend Ki and deal damage, capping at 64 DPR attacking (for 5 Ki), and 110 DPR Con for half (for 10 Ki). Opportunist (Shadow) brings their sustained damage up around 52.5 (for 1 Ki) if they get the reaction attack. Quivering Palm (Open Hand) alternates between 42 and all of it, save for 55, which averages to 48.5 if they always pass the save, but you know someone's gonna be unlucky and go splat.

I think for your situation, the extra temporary hp and area control from long death, or the extra targeted control and healing from open hand are going to be the biggest draws. That they both have a big hit finisher at level 17 is a matter that's long off from now.

If you're getting a bonus feat anyway, you can take defensive duelist as another reaction option.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I would say that the wording could be interpreted many ways but in general in 5e you declare the actions you are going to do then you can do them in any order.

"Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before? The intent is that the bonus attack can come before or after the cantrip. You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action specifies when it must take place (PH, 189)."
There is one example of this type of ruling from wizards.com (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016)


The bonus action of flurry of blows specifies when it must take place, AFTER the attack action. There is no such restriction on War Magic in the PHB. So...... No. As written, and as ruled in your example from Wizards.com, flurry of blows can only come after an attack action.

[Specter]

Are you the group's tank? Oh dear. I just don't find unarmored defense to be sufficient for tanking. Tough might buy you an extra hit or two but hard to see it making up for the AC.

It will be me/rogue/ranger/undecided guy. That undecided guy said he'd like to play a gish, I believe he's going Valor Bard. I'm not too worried about tanking, but not too cool either.


The thing with multiclassing a monk is that more Ki is almost always going to be useful. At level 12, you can do one stunning strike and one flurry per turn for 6 turns before having to rest. At level 20, you can go for 10 turns or go for 2 stunning strikes and one flurry for ~7 turns. There's always room for more stuns.

For dealing raw damage, Fangs of the Fire Snake (4 Elements) and Touch of Long Death (Or whatever it's called) are the fastest ways to spend Ki and deal damage, capping at 64 DPR attacking (for 5 Ki), and 110 DPR Con for half (for 10 Ki). Opportunist (Shadow) brings their sustained damage up around 52.5 (for 1 Ki) if they get the reaction attack. Quivering Palm (Open Hand) alternates between 42 and all of it, save for 55, which averages to 48.5 if they always pass the save, but you know someone's gonna be unlucky and go splat.

I think for your situation, the extra temporary hp and area control from long death, or the extra targeted control and healing from open hand are going to be the biggest draws. That they both have a big hit finisher at level 17 is a matter that's long off from now.

If you're getting a bonus feat anyway, you can take defensive duelist as another reaction option.

I'm going Long Death. It gives me more hit points eventually, lets me be the master of terror and feels appropriate. The level 10 ability is one of the best in the game. Multiclassing can wait.


Monks maximize damage by stunlocking monsters. This increases the entire party's damage not just the Monk's

True story. But we're starting at level 3 so that's a bit ahead.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

It will be me/rogue/ranger/undecided guy. That undecided guy said he'd like to play a gish, I believe he's going Valor Bard. I'm not too worried about tanking, but not too cool either.


Yeah, monks aren't tanks, unless you multiclass them with barbarian for damage resistance. Expect problems.

[RickAllison]

Yeah, monks aren't tanks, unless you multiclass them with barbarian for damage resistance. Expect problems.

Long Death Monks actually make pretty decent off-tanks. Extra HP from kills, at-will frighten effect to lock down the battlefield around you, and straight-up ignoring death. In some situations, he might be a superior tank than the barbarian.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Long Death Monks actually make pretty decent off-tanks. Extra HP from kills, at-will frighten effect to lock down the battlefield around you, and straight-up ignoring death. In some situations, he might be a superior tank than the barbarian.

For sure, Long Death Monk can make a better attempt at tanking than any other monk, and maybe the temp hp and ignoring death at level 11 is all they need to tank, but I still think multi-classing to barbarian to get damage resistance is going to help them a whole lot with tanking.

[SharkForce]

The bonus action of flurry of blows specifies when it must take place, AFTER the attack action. There is no such restriction on War Magic in the PHB. So...... No. As written, and as ruled in your example from Wizards.com, flurry of blows can only come after an attack action.

the attack action takes place immediately. it lets you make attacks (number dictated by extra attack ability or lack thereof), but as soon as you choose the attack action it has been taken. if, for example, you made your first attack and then someone interrupted you with a reaction and paralyzed you before it hit, you would have still taken the attack action... we wouldn't say "oh, you took part of an attack action", it would be a full attack action.

taking the attack action gives you attacks to make... it isn't the act of making those attacks, otherwise multiattack would of necessity include the attack action, as would many spellcasting actions.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

the attack action takes place immediately. it lets you make attacks (number dictated by extra attack ability or lack thereof), but as soon as you choose the attack action it has been taken. if, for example, you made your first attack and then someone interrupted you with a reaction and paralyzed you before it hit, you would have still taken the attack action... we wouldn't say "oh, you took part of an attack action", it would be a full attack action.

taking the attack action gives you attacks to make... it isn't the act of making those attacks, otherwise multiattack would of necessity include the attack action, as would many spellcasting actions.

Don't see how this changes anything. An action is still an action, and once it is over, it is over. If something in the rules says you can only do a particular bonus action AFTER you have taken a preceding action, then you can only do it after that action has been done. IF THIS WERE NOT SO, then any such distinction as a bonus action taking place "after" an attack action would be meaningless and surperfluous.

[numerek]

Don't see how this changes anything. An action is still an action, and once it is over, it is over. If something in the rules says you can only do a particular bonus action AFTER you have taken a preceding action, then you can only do it after that action has been done. IF THIS WERE NOT SO, then any such distinction as a bonus action taking place "after" an attack action would be meaningless and surperfluous.

Again I'm not saying either one of us is right or wrong but I did previously mention another possible reason for the wording.



I think the intent of the wording of flurry of blows is that you are supposed to make the decision to use flurry of blow before you know the results of your regular attacks. The timing is for spending the ki not when the attacks take place.

[SharkForce]

it doesn't say after completing an attack action. it says after taking an attack action. so you take an attack action, use your special ability to flurry while the attack action is still going, and then take your regular attacks granted by the attack action.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

it doesn't say after completing an attack action. it says after taking an attack action. so you take an attack action, use your special ability to flurry while the attack action is still going, and then take your regular attacks granted by the attack action.

Yeah, this sounds like total bs to me. "After" means "after". Unless you can show me something in the rules that says "after" doesn't mean "after", then I don't believe this at all. There is another word, called "during", that is different word than "after". If one means "during", one is not going to say "after".

[SharkForce]

*shrug* it falls in line with similar other abilities that have been ruled on.

for example:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/29/shield-master-feat/

now, you have to have to "take the attack action on your turn" to make the bonus action shove with the shield. but you can take the attack action, shove, and then make your attacks; that is, you have taken the attack action even before you make any attacks at all.

now, shield master doesn't explicitly include the word "after". but seeing as how we're not time-travelers, nor do we possess the ability to look into the future with total reliability, the only way we can actually know you've taken the attack action on your turn is if you've already taken it.

so, you can take the attack action and you don't have to make the attacks right when you take the action. the time in between taking the action and making the attacks is still after taking the action. that is, if we were to put those in order it would look like this:

1) take attack action
2) use bonus action shove
3) make attacks

as you should be able to see, event 2 happens after event 1. it doesn't matter if event 1 is also still ongoing; you event 2 can still be "after" that event, simply by starting later.

[numerek]

Yeah, this sounds like total bs to me. "After" means "after". Unless you can show me something in the rules that says "after" doesn't mean "after", then I don't believe this at all. There is another word, called "during", that is different word than "after". If one means "during", one is not going to say "after".

To add some more information for my interpretation:
The monk at level one gets the ability to do one bonus action attack if you take the attack action. So what the designers were trying to prevent was
a person taking the attack action doing their 1 or possibly 3 attacks (up to 6 with action surge with a second attack action)
then doing a bonus action attack
Then the player decides I want to make one more attack so I'll use the flurry of blows ability.
I understand that the rules already forbid this since you are using one ability and half of another but at the table it would be ambiguous and players would say they forgot to say they were doing flurry of blows but it was their intention all the time, well if that is true then the players should have no problem making their intention clear and stating that they are going to do flurry of blows immediately after they say they are taking the attack action.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

now, shield master doesn't explicitly include the word "after".

Exactly, and any feat or ability that ascribes a bonus action that doesn't say when it occurs can technically be done at any time. Flurry of blows doesn't have that freedom, because the word "after" is explicitly used.

Seriously, it is not a big friggin restriction on a monk that his/her flurry of blows comes after his attack action. Monk is my favorite class, my favorite character that I play is an Open Hand Monk, and I don't feel any undue restrictions on him due to the fact that he can only flurry or take his bonus action unarmed attack after his attack action.

[RickAllison]

Exactly, and any feat or ability that ascribes a bonus action that doesn't say when it occurs can technically be done at any time. Flurry of blows doesn't have that freedom, because the word "after" is explicitly used.

Seriously, it is not a big friggin restriction on a monk that his/her flurry of blows comes after his attack action. Monk is my favorite class, my favorite character that I play is an Open Hand Monk, and I don't feel any undue restrictions on him due to the fact that he can only flurry or take his bonus action unarmed attack after his attack action.

And in a way, it makes sense fluff-wise. The main attacks are used to poke holes in the defense or throw off an opponent, then the Open Hand Monk uses his training to exploit those holes to launch his opponents by manipulating their ki. For non-OH monks, it can be conserving the momentum of his swing into the unarmed attacks.

[Grixis]

*shrug* it falls in line with similar other abilities that have been ruled on.

for example:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/29/shield-master-feat/

now, you have to have to "take the attack action on your turn" to make the bonus action shove with the shield. but you can take the attack action, shove, and then make your attacks; that is, you have taken the attack action even before you make any attacks at all.

now, shield master doesn't explicitly include the word "after". but seeing as how we're not time-travelers, nor do we possess the ability to look into the future with total reliability, the only way we can actually know you've taken the attack action on your turn is if you've already taken it.

so, you can take the attack action and you don't have to make the attacks right when you take the action. the time in between taking the action and making the attacks is still after taking the action. that is, if we were to put those in order it would look like this:

1) take attack action
2) use bonus action shove
3) make attacks

as you should be able to see, event 2 happens after event 1. it doesn't matter if event 1 is also still ongoing; you event 2 can still be "after" that event, simply by starting later.

For the love of god.. this guy just showed the ruling from last year that you can use the bonus action before the attacks when you use the attack action. No one is apparently paying attention. Debate should be over on this one.

As far as the real reason for this thread, monk DPR is greatly underestimated in general. A level 6 monk's attacks are considered magical and bypass all resistances. Against any other class that may or may not have magical weapons or dependable ways to make their weapons magical he probably beats in DPR against the MANY monsters that have these resistances. He does 100% damage all the time and needs no resources to do it.

Crossclassing with a ranger isn't a bad idea for the hordebreaking ability. Usually this free attack from this class isn't always dependable since you need two enemies standing right next to each other in your range. However, Open Hand gives you the awesome ability to push ANY creature size up to 15ft away from you. So if the enemies aren't standing next to each other just start hitting them to where you want them, use your awesome speed to close the distance and line up your free attack. What's better than 4 attacks a turn? 5! No matter how big they are.

I like Sentinel for the Monk since it can bring your attacks up to 6.

[Waazraath]

For the love of god.. this guy just showed the ruling from last year that you can use the bonus action before the attacks when you use the attack action. No one is apparently paying attention. Debate should be over on this one.


Eh, wut? The guy quoted a ruling on the shield master feat. That doesn't have the word 'after'. 'After' is pretty darn clear, it seems to me. So yes, debate should be over imo, but not in the way you're implying.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Eh, wut? The guy quoted a ruling on the shield master feat. That doesn't have the word 'after'. 'After' is pretty darn clear, it seems to me. So yes, debate should be over imo, but not in the way you're implying.

Lots of people with reading comprehension issues playing D&D, apparently.

[Specter]

Wouldn't you rather take this obvious discussion to the RAW thread?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Wouldn't you rather take this obvious discussion to the RAW thread?

We derailed thread, it wasn't originally about bonus actions, etc.

[Aldarin]

I'd advise switching INT and STR. Dex entirely replaces STR for the monk, and INT saves, when they come up, are a big deal. Plus you get STR save prof.

[djreynolds]

A monk can take the dodge action as a bonus action for just 1 Ki point that regenerates every short rest, they can be very annoying and hard to hit, if not tanky they are at least dodgy and distracting to the enemy.

Sentinel is a very good feat for any class to have and its a reaction, so you could take the dodge action and can still receive a reaction attack.

Mobile is very good as well, freeing up your bonus action for something other than disengage. And is good if you want to stay pure.

The reality of the monk is they really need those ASI in dex and wisdom, and they are more than likely going to need 4 of them to max out. So it leaves you with 1 left over. For human variant, sentinel and mobile are very good choices to take out of the gate.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

A monk can take the dodge action as a bonus action for just 1 Ki point that regenerates every short rest, they can be very annoying and hard to hit, if not tanky they are at least dodgy and distracting to the enemy.

Sentinel is a very good feat for any class to have and its a reaction, so you could take the dodge action and can still receive a reaction attack.

Mobile is very good as well, freeing up your bonus action for something other than disengage. And is good if you want to stay pure.

The reality of the monk is they really need those ASI in dex and wisdom, and they are more than likely going to need 4 of them to max out. So it leaves you with 1 left over. For human variant, sentinel and mobile are very good choices to take out of the gate.

Yeah, I would recommend having mobile over sentinel, good to get in there, do your damage and get out. Wasting Ki on dodge is just one less ki that you can stunning strike someone which should be what you are doing the majority of the time with your ki.