Optimal Defense

[Easy_Lee]

The thread on offense vs defense got me thinking about how much easier it is to build an offensive character than a defensive character. Just by being able to deal two damage types, or by being able to target two saves, a player can bypass the resistances and immunities of nearly every creature. However, becoming resistant to every damage type and proficient in every save is a daunting task, if it's even possible.

That said, some forms of defense are better than others.

AC comes up very often.
High HP is useful in most situations.
Temporary HP comes up extremely often.
Wisdom, constitution, and dexterity saves also come up often, although dexterity saves generally just deal damage which may be reduced by false life or resistances. Failing a wisdom or constitution save is generally worse for one's health.
Resistance to a particular damage type doesn't come up very often, unless the player can change that damage type to suit the environment.
Being able to slay from far away is an effective way to avoid needing any of the above, particularly if you have high mobility.
Abilities like Uncanny Dodge go a long way towards keeping you alive.

With all of the above in mind, what classes and archetypes are truly the most resilient?

[MaxWilson]

Don't forget hiding. A Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 3 will have approximately Stealth +19 by level 5, and if he's Lucky he'll even get to reroll low rolls when he's up against something with passive Perception 20+. He can plink away with his shortbow for, well, lots of damage every turn. If there's no hiding place around he can cast Darkness instead of Pass Without Trace, which reduces his Stealth to only +9, but now he can generate his own cover and move it wherever it needs to go. (Also, per PHB rules, enemies auto-fail on their attempts to spot him, of course, because of heavy obscurement. Unfortunately the PHB is very vague on when Perception uses sight vs. hearing vs. smell/etc., so ask your DM for a ruling in advance.)

As was observed in the other thread, though, defense needs to be paired with some form of control or offense to be truly useful. As a solo character, the monk doesn't really need control and can focus on plinking CR 5+ enemies to death with nigh-impunity; but if he's in a party he needs to change his approach to accomodate their preferred engagement mode.

[leugren]

Going off the PHB alone, the Barbarian really accomplishes this quite well.

...

While I agree that Totem Barbarians are extremely tough to kill, depending on your choice of race, they are quite vulnerable to attacks that target mental stats (e.g. charm, dominate, fright, etc.).

[Specter]

EK with Magic Initiate for Shield of Faith. That's it.

[Easy_Lee]

I only have the PHB and MM, dunno much about options from other books.

And yes, that's why resilience on Wisdom is so good! Most spells that dominte/frighten/control mind call for wisdom saves

A Totem Barbarian with Resilient Wisdom is a fairly complete package. He doesn't have a good source of temporary HP or healing, and doesn't get evasion. Perhaps a rogue / barbarian hybrid with uncanny dodge, evasion, and bear totem as early as level 10...but I'm getting outside the context of the thread here. The purpose was to discuss individual archetypes and classes with high survival.

How do you guys feel about fiend locks?

[TheFlyingCleric]

While I agree that Totem Barbarians are extremely tough to kill, depending on your choice of race, they are quite vulnerable to attacks that target mental stats (e.g. charm, dominate, fright, etc.).

If a Totem barbarian can get Mind Blank cast on them somehow, then they're done. A pity that it takes a 15 level Wizard dip.

[RickAllison]

Long Death monk, especially as a gnome. Potentially up to 20 AC, ability to generate temporary HP, and the ability to not drop to 0 HP to cover HP-based damage thoroughly, proficiency in all saves with advantage in mental saves to cover disable effects, and movement to get out of Dodge when things look bad. Combine it with longbow proficiency to attack from long range and you have numerous requirements met.

[Klorox]

Long Death monk, especially as a gnome. Potentially up to 20 AC, ability to generate temporary HP, and the ability to not drop to 0 HP to cover HP-based damage thoroughly, proficiency in all saves with advantage in mental saves to cover disable effects, and movement to get out of Dodge when things look bad. Combine it with longbow proficiency to attack from long range and you have numerous requirements met.

This is amazing.

Except the part about a gnome and a longbow. That's just hilarious! :D

[Klorox]

Going off the PHB alone, the Barbarian really accomplishes this quite well.

Vuman using point buy: 15 15 14 8 10 8
For attributes add +1 to Str and Con
Choose the Resilient feat and go with Wis

Your stats now look like: 16, 16, 14, 8, 11, 8
Barb gets prof in Str and Con, so now you're prof with Str, Con, and Wis.
Your AC, at level 1 is 10 + 2 + 3 + 2 (shield) = 17.

Level 2 comes and you get danger sense, giving advantage in Dex saves most of the time. Advantage is approx a +5 bonus, so until your prof bonus reaches +6 this is better than proficiency.

Level 3 we take the Totem Warrior path, choosing the bear.

So by level 3:
We are proficient in strength, constitution, dexterity (sort of), and wisdom saves. Our AC at this point is:
12 + 7 + 7 + (3 * 3) = 35.
While raging, this is like having 70 health but being vulnerable to psychic damage.

Let's keep going...

We get ASI's at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19. That's 5 bonuses.
We want to max con first, so we spend 4 and 8 doing just that.
At 12 we take the Tough feat.

Peeking at level 12:
Same saves as before, advantage on dex is still slightly better than the proficiency (this will change next level).
Our AC is now 10 + 5 + 2 + 2 (shield) = 19. Not bad! Our party's metallic fighter has plate armor (18), a shield (+2), and a fighting style that puts him at 21. We're catching up.
Our health is ridiculous:
12 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + (5 * 12) = 5 + (12*7) + (5*12) = 144 + 5 = 149.
Now we add the bonus from the feat: 24.
So our health total is 173.

While raging, this is 346 with the vulnerability trick. We have the same AC and more effective health than an adult red dragon.

How many twinned sorc disintegrates will need to kill us? Disintegrate, a 6th level spell (Note: wiz/soc have only 1 6th lvl slot @lvl12), deals 10d6 + 40 = 75 force damage. Twice that's 150.
Assuming we fail both saves (to which we have a +2 and advantage, as this is a spell), we can survive this destruction TWICE.

Which is absurd.


Level 20 is where this gets truly ridiculous. Our con goes up to 24. That's a +7.
Health is then: 14 * 20 + 5 + 40 (from feat). That's 325, if I'm not mistaken, an effective 650
Our AC is now also 10 + 7 + 2 + 2 (shield) = 21. 21 AC at lvl 20 isn't absurd, but its good.
The point, however, is that it doesn't matter because you have an effective health of 650.

Basically, my point is, sticking true to the bear totem barbarian will go a long way in keeping you alive.
Should maybe also consider hill dwarf, they get half the "Tough" feat built-in.
While the variant human peaks at 12, any other race peaks at 16. If we're not in a race, either gnome has the "advantage on all mental saves" ability, which is amazing. You could argue that you don't need resilient WIS if you have advantage, but if we're building the most survivable character, you'd better play it safe.

[djreynolds]

The UA scout's parry maneuver/ability is very good. Yes its only 4 times a short rest, but it adds SD to AC and the uncanny dodge.

[ES Curse]

Medium armor DEX Barbarian with maxed DEX and CON plus a shield. Dip Fighter for the Defense fighting style. Important feats are Medium Armor Master, Resilient (WIS/DEX), Lucky (always good), and Defensive Duelist. Recommended races: Lightfoot Halfling, V.Human.

If you're one of those heavy armor types, a S&B OoA Paladin with Defense and appropriate feats (Swap Resilient WIS for CON, Medium Armor Master for Heavy Armor Master; oddly Defensive Duelist stays because you can use STR with finesse weapons) can be really good too. Recommended races: Either Dwarf, V.Human.

[MrFahrenheit]

I think the highest normal/ongoing AC score would be 27, no?

Ways to get there:
A. +3 shield and defense fighting style, along with a +3 half plate with MAM and 16 dex OR a +3 full plate.
B. Level 20 barbarian, unarmored, with 20 dex, 24 con and a +3 shield.

That being said, option A is better if you can cast spells. My current party is level 14, so that's where I'm coming from with this following sample character:

Half elf EK 9/paladin 2/lore bard 3
13/20/16/8/8/14
-Takes MAM.
-Has every skill linked to str, dex, and cha, in addition to two from int and/or wis. 2 skills are expertise'd.
-Can use a whip to attack from reach, while utilizing smites to make up for the lowly d4.
-AC: 27, assuming +3 shield and armor
-AC: 29 with shield of faith spell up
-AC: 34 with shield spell up as a reaction (unless these two spells wouldn't stack? Couldn't find something forbidding it).

[RickAllison]

This is amazing.

Except the part about a gnome and a longbow. That's just hilarious! :D

The gnome has to hold it sideways so it doesn't rub the ground :smallbiggrin:

[Klorox]

The gnome has to hold it sideways so it doesn't rub the ground :smallbiggrin:

LMAO. I love it.

[MaxWilson]

I think the highest normal/ongoing AC score would be 27, no?

Ways to get there:
A. +3 shield and defense fighting style, along with a +3 half plate with MAM and 16 dex OR a +3 full plate.
B. Level 20 barbarian, unarmored, with 20 dex, 24 con and a +3 shield.

Add Defensive Duelist on top for +6 AC (AC 33) vs. one melee attack per turn.

Foresight would make it AC 33 AND disadvantage to all your enemies' attacks, which is an order of magnitude better than AC 33 alone. You're essentially immune to crits, for one thing.

[ES Curse]

Wouldn't a medium armor Barbarian edge out the unarmored version with a dip in fighter (defense fighting style) and the ability to wear magic armor with the magic shield?

[MaxWilson]

Wouldn't a medium armor Barbarian edge out the unarmored version with a dip in fighter (defense fighting style) and the ability to wear magic armor with the magic shield?

Con 24 + Dex 20 = 10 + 7 + 5 = AC 22.
Half-plate +3 + Defense fighting style + Dex 20 + = (15 + 3) + 1 + 2 = AC 21.

[RickAllison]

For a defense that wouldn't fully come online until level 20, how about Crown Paladin 6/Long Death Monk 14. It would be far better with good stat rolls than point-buy, but a Half-elf could start with 14/13/14/8/13/15. When Charisma gets to 20, you and close allies get +5 to saving throws. When you are at 20, you will have +10 to Int and +12 to all other saving throws at minimum. Also, by 12 you get the unique synergy of forcing creatures to stay within 30' using Channel Divinity, while being able to inflict the frightened condition within that same radius!

[Klorox]

Forest gnome (or svirfneblin) DEX based eldritch knight may not be the best, but it's a damn good build.

You're proficient in STR and CON saves, so even while dumping STR, you'll have a chance to pass the save. You're going to maximize your DEX, which means those saves will be decent too. And, of course advantage on the mental saves.

Defense fighting style with the best light or medium armor you can get your hands on, combined with the shield spell is potent.

[Georlik]

I have the following build in mind:
Half-Elf
Paladin of the Ancients
With stats like 10, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16
Medium Armor Master, Inspiring Leader, maximized Charisma and Defensive Duelist (or other feat to your liking).
Key choices: Defensive fighting style, Stealth and Perception from Half Elf, finesse weapon and shield.

Pros:
Maximum possible mundane AC
Near perfect Dex, Con and Wiz saves
Magic resistance
Good HP and Temp HP
Charm resistance
Sleep immunity
Stealth option
Ranged option (longbow and 2 ranged Smite spells)
Mobility (via Find Steed)
Good initiative
Can adapt to any party
No roleplaying controversy

Cons:
Not maximized damage
Finesse weapons only (so no
Holy Avenger for you)
Switching from melee to ranged requires 1 round
No Auto-save on concentration

[Klorox]

I have the following build in mind:
Half-Elf
Paladin of the Ancients
With stats like 10, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16
Medium Armor Master, Inspiring Leader, maximized Charisma and Defensive Duelist (or other feat to your liking).
Key choices: Defensive fighting style, Stealth and Perception from Half Elf, finesse weapon and shield.

Pros:
Maximum possible mundane AC
Near perfect Dex, Con and Wiz saves
Magic resistance
Good HP and Temp HP
Charm resistance
Sleep immunity
Stealth option
Ranged option (longbow and 2 ranged Smite spells)
Mobility (via Find Steed)
Good initiative
Can adapt to any party
No roleplaying controversy

Cons:
Not maximized damage
Finesse weapons only (so no
Holy Avenger for you)
Switching from melee to ranged requires 1 round
No Auto-save on concentration

RAW: the Holy Avenger can be any sword. No reason it can't be a short sword, rapier or scimitar. IJS.

Nice looking character!

[BW022]

With all of the above in mind, what classes and archetypes are truly the most resilient?

Various forms of defense are situational. Building against on type of attack, typically leaves you vulnerable to another form of attack.

I would say that best form of defense is generally distance. Whether this is done via spider climb, fly, physical distance, having another character block, having summon monsters, web or other area spells, etc. Since many creatures don't have ranged attacks, these are often pretty much "You kill the X, subtract 15 arrows." It is amazing the number of monsters (even NPCs) which have no ranged abilities or whose ranged abilities are extremely weak.

I would follow up with darkness, greater invisibility, hide/sniping, and other abilities where your opponents can't see you. Flying above someone in darkness, darkness plus devil's site invocation, etc. These often lead to cases where our opponent can't see you, can't target you, and can't reach you.

The main issue with the above is that they don't work well in party settings. Whether you can spider climb to the roof and flame bolt the troll to death over 20 rounds.. is pointless if the rest of your party is on the ground getting shredded. Most groups resent PCs 'going solo' and watching one PC kill a monster via sniping, flying, darkness, etc. Not fun for them to sit there for an hour while you roll away. Such tactics only work well for your personal defense. The rogue disengages, the warlock flies, the cleric goes invisible, and the fighter still has to take the attacks.

I'll also add a few defense tactics not on your list.


Disguise. Make yourself look like an enemy or at least hide your class. Wizards in armor, clerics with disguise self looking like rogues, etc.
Miss spells. Blur, blink, invisibility, mirror image, etc.
Waste of time actions. Going defensive, putting up shield, ready an action to move away when the enemy moves to 10' from you, etc. Often creatures will just give up and go attack someone else. Moving can often trade away your attack for theirs.
Grappling, tripping, disarming.
Illusions. Trickery domain, or various illusion spells can have folks wasting initial attacks, discourage closing, etc. An illusion of a bear trap in front of the fighter might convince someone not to charge.
Reaction Damage. Polearm mastery, thunder domain, Armor of Agathys, traps, etc. Enemies may have no idea how often you can use these abilities and after seeing someone take an insane amount of damage, they might not be so interested in attacking you.
Using your own resistances. If you have fire resistance, stand in a wall of fire. Put stinking cloud around a dwarven fighter.
Talking and roleplaying. Bluffs, intimate, or just a good story can sometimes affect opponents. Speak with animals and some fire might drive off wolves, telling someone you know what school their children go to, etc. might make them think twice. Taunts may have them targeting the 'wrong' PC.
Punishing offense. Having everyone use all their big abilities on one opponent can often intimate the others into fleeing. Again, no reason to know that the party can't do that over and over on each of them.
Counterspelling and dispel magic. Highly annoying to casters and they have no idea how often you can do that. Many will simply resort to non-spell attacks.
Terrain. Move to a doorway or narrow passage and limit the number of creatures who can get at you. Cover and missile fire.
Debuffing spells and abilities. Cutting words, bane, etc. can be effective on a large number.
Target switching. Switch tanks or tactics in the middle of a combat. A fighter who flies up after several rounds or a paladin who switches from a sword to moving away and using a bow... etc. Do the monsters follow or switch to ranged... or do they go after someone else?


Sure there are more.

No defense is 100%. However, some defenses are effectively 100% in a good number of cases. If find that focusing on a couple of key defenses (say good AC and reasonable hit point, for example) and then having a big alternate tactic (fly, spiderclimb, damage reaction, etc.) is good enough for 90% of the cases. For the remaining 10%, you rely on others.