New Iron Man

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

so my twitter and youtube feeds are full of people talking about Riri Williams and someone said she bears a striking resemblance to Ruth Negga.

One of the new Youtubers I follow thinks she may be a move to diversify the MCU


https://youtu.be/IKc8LgpbgKA

What does the playground think?

[Traab]

There is no "think" about it, she is explicitly being added to diversify the MCU. Personally I think its stupid. A far better option would be to introduce a new character to the avengers, build up a little history and see if she becomes popular then give her her own series. Not just arbitrarily declare there is a new iron man and its a black woman. I really wish they would stop altering existing characters in some lame attempt at diversity and instead work on creating new heroes so they dont have to rely on the same half dozen or so big names forever and ever and refresh them through gimmicks.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

There is no "think" about it, she is explicitly being added to diversify the MCU. Personally I think its stupid. A far better option would be to introduce a new character to the avengers, build up a little history and see if she becomes popular then give her her own series. Not just arbitrarily declare there is a new iron man and its a black woman. I really wish they would stop altering existing characters in some lame attempt at diversity and instead work on creating new heroes so they dont have to rely on the same half dozen or so big names forever and ever and refresh them through gimmicks.

I don't think they 'arbitrarily declaired' anything this has been building for months. Invincible Iron Man #1 had him locked in building his new armor BECUSE some kid at MIT had figured out how his armor was made and had made a prototype... so this was built up to at least. And she has appeared in a few issues...

[Olinser]

There is no "think" about it, she is explicitly being added to diversify the MCU. Personally I think its stupid. A far better option would be to introduce a new character to the avengers, build up a little history and see if she becomes popular then give her her own series. Not just arbitrarily declare there is a new iron man and its a black woman. I really wish they would stop altering existing characters in some lame attempt at diversity and instead work on creating new heroes so they dont have to rely on the same half dozen or so big names forever and ever and refresh them through gimmicks.

It's freaking idiotic and nothing but a cynical attempt to transfer the popularity of one character to a new character they know damn well would not sell well on their own simply for the name of DIVERSITY LOL!!!

It's actually pretty insulting. By doing this, Marvel has essentially announced they don't think a black woman as a superhero can succeed on their own. So they have to try and transfer the popularity of an existing white male superhero and hope enough of it sticks to make her viable.

I mean they already went through exactly this cycle with Rhodey. They realized it was stupid so they quickly brought back Stark and made Rhodey his own super hero - War Machine. Which they should have done from the start.

And exactly the same thing should be happening here. They SHOULD have Stark help her forge her own path. But no. Marvel has no faith she can actually make it on her own. So they're making her 'Iron Man'. What a joke.

[Pippa the Pixie]

It's just a waste of time. It will never work. Diversity does not work and will never work.

So Marvel wants to be more ''Diverse'' because they both agree with the idea and somehow think the reads do too. So, sure, they could make an interesting non-white character, but they can't do that.

So they go with the old stand by of diversify and existing character by replacing them with a non-white character with the same name. Somehow, they think people will see ''Iron Man'' for example and think of the awesome character of old, buy the comic, and read it and love it even though it's nothing even close to the character of old.

So the ''new diverse'' character will be around for a couple years. It might sell well at first, and it might get a slight following, but it won't go anywhere. Eventually the character will just be forgotten and put on the huge pile of ''wow, what were they thinking'' yet again.

And it's so insulting. Why not just make an interesting black female tech character? Why does that seem impossible to them? You know what....if they made such a character...I might even read the comic.

[Devonix]

It's freaking idiotic and nothing but a cynical attempt to transfer the popularity of one character to a new character they know damn well would not sell well on their own simply for the name of DIVERSITY LOL!!!

It's actually pretty insulting. By doing this, Marvel has essentially announced they don't think a black woman as a superhero can succeed on their own. So they have to try and transfer the popularity of an existing white male superhero and hope enough of it sticks to make her viable.

I mean they already went through exactly this cycle with Rhodey. They realized it was stupid so they quickly brought back Stark and made Rhodey his own super hero - War Machine. Which they should have done from the start.

And exactly the same thing should be happening here. They SHOULD have Stark help her forge her own path. But no. Marvel has no faith she can actually make it on her own. So they're making her 'Iron Man'. What a joke.


It's not fair to compare this to Rhodey. Him being Ironman wasn't something that they " Realized was stupid" They played the story to completion and at the end of the story Tony came back as was the whole plan. He was filling in, and never implied to be a replacement. And afterwards he became even more of an amazing character in part because of his time as Ironman.

I'm more upset that Marvel killed him off in Civil War 2 for shock value.

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't this just round two of the Lady Thor 'controversy'?

[Thrudd]

I don't think some of you know what you're talking about with this character. You're making assumptions without even reading it. They have introduced her as a brilliant techie engineer who is bored by MIT. She has decided to challenge herself and build her own version of a powered armor suit, because she knows Stark did it in a cave with practically nothing, so she should be able to do it even better. This isn't "the new iron man is a black woman!" This is a new character who happens to be a brilliant engineer type building her own tech. She may be a spiritual successor to Tony Stark, but this doesn't feel like a gimmick where somebody else wears the iron man armor for a while. I expect Stark will at some point become a mentor or patron to her, but her armor, I'm guessing, will have some surprises that Tony hasn't thought of.

[Blackhawk748]

Isn't this just round two of the Lady Thor 'controversy'?

Frankly i think this more annoying than Lady Thor. Mostly cuz Thor is still Thor, we just get a Lady Thor now. If this new girl becomes Iron Man, what happens to Stark?

Honestly if they wanted a badass black female character they already have one, Danielle Cage (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Danielle_Cage_(Earth-15061)). Ys shes from the future, who cares? Make Avengers 20XX a thing again, we thought it was pretty sweet the first time around, just dont screw it up.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

I don't think some of you know what you're talking about with this character. You're making assumptions without even reading it. They have introduced her as a brilliant techie engineer who is bored by MIT. She has decided to challenge herself and build her own version of a powered armor suit, because she knows Stark did it in a cave with practically nothing, so she should be able to do it even better. This isn't "the new iron man is a black woman!" This is a new character who happens to be a brilliant engineer type building her own tech. She may be a spiritual successor to Tony Stark, but this doesn't feel like a gimmick where somebody else wears the iron man armor for a while. I expect Stark will at some point become a mentor or patron to her, but her armor, I'm guessing, will have some surprises that Tony hasn't thought of.

I expect she will have a role similar to War Machine, she will take the role for a while then spin off. She already is her own person. I was excited since the first issue when they mentioned the MIT kid...

[huttj509]

Since with these things I've been a strong proponent of going to the freaking source, here's the interview where Brian Michael Bendis talks about Riri Williams. http://time.com/4394478/iron-man-riri-williams-tony-stark/?xid=fbshare

[Kitten Champion]

I'd like to point to Miles Morales and Kamala Khan, two characters people were uncharitably describing in much the same fashion as "diversity-pandering PC nonsense that would fade into oblivion in a few years" only to become popular solo-title leading characters who used existing heroes' iconography to gain an initial market only to develop their own following through skilled writing and Marvel giving them a chance, one of which is owed to Bendis.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You know they already have a black female techie hero, right? Name of Sprocket. And there was another one (or maybe the same one) during the whole alternate world thing post-Onslaught, called Makeshift.

Marvel can't even remember their own history.

[BiblioRook]

For all people complain about the 'forced diversity' and whatnot, I for one love how Marvel is going with the whole All-New All-Different thing. I actually was rather annoyed that Iron Man never got the same treatment the others did considering that comparably his 'superpowers' would unarguably be the easiest to 'pass down', that and Tony Stark as a person just has so often been the source of making such a mess of things I'm really surprised Marvel didn't try to bench him years ago and putting someone else in his place.

I understand the whole 'If they want more diverse heroes they should make new ones instead of forcing them into old roles', but I'm going go on and reuse and argument that was recently used against me elsewhere and go 'Because it's safe'. Sure they can make new characters and heroes, but clearly they have already been doing so with various degrees of success and maybe thought it hasn't been enough. After all, why would people want to bother moving on to these new heroes when the old familiars are still around continuing to be big-wigs? Put the new hero in the shoes of the old favorite and now not only are people more likely to take notice but also are more likely to give them a chance. Admittedly though it works better some times then others, but I honestly hope they do well with what they are trying to do with this sort of thing.

Despite the complaints when they try to do something like this I find myself thinking about to reading about all the letters written to the creators of Kamala Khan and how much it meant to people that someone like her was made and how many people started reading comics who normally wouldn't have because of her. Representation is important and often means more then people realize.


Isn't this just round two of the Lady Thor 'controversy'?

More like round... five? Maybe more.
Lets see, we have a female Thor, a black Captain America and a black Spider-man, an asian Hulk, and a female Wolverine. Female Hawkeye might also count, though honestly she's been around for quite a while now. Did I leave any big ones out?

[Kitten Champion]

You know they already have a black female techie hero, right? Name of Sprocket. And there was another one (or maybe the same one) during the whole alternate world thing post-Onslaught, called Makeshift.

Marvel can't even remember their own history.

I don't see your point. Characters aren't interchangeable simply because they look alike or do similar things, Bendis wants to write this character and he's explained why.

[BiblioRook]

Also it's not like it's a quota.

[Anteros]

I'd like to point to Miles Morales and Kamala Khan, two characters people were uncharitably describing in much the same fashion as "diversity-pandering PC nonsense that would fade into oblivion in a few years" only to become popular solo-title leading characters who used existing heroes' iconography to gain an initial market only to develop their own following through skilled writing and Marvel giving them a chance, one of which is owed to Bendis.

I don't know much about Miss Marvel (aside from the fact that I find the new one annoying, and tend to drop any story she's heavily involved in), but Miles Morales isn't even remotely as popular as the character he "replaced". Not even in the same universe of popularity. If it weren't for them constantly shoehorning him into Peter Parker's storylines most people wouldn't even know he existed.

I'm actually not sure Bendis is owed any type of chance at all. At this point he's infamous for churning out terrible story after terrible story and a lot of the fans are sick of him. He's had a few good runs, but Marvel would be better served by either reining him in or moving on entirely.

As far as having a new Iron Man goes, I think it's dumb. Not because of any type of race or diversity reasoning though. It's dumb because the reader doesn't care about some random person in an Iron Man suit. The reader cares about Tony Stark. I drop any book that does this. Ultimate Spider-man kills Peter Parker to make way for a new guy? Nope, not getting my money. Female Thor? Pass. Batman is my favorite character, and I didn't buy his books for a year because they stopped telling Batman stories and told stories about Jim Gordon in a bat suit instead. You can't just completely change the character, slap the same label on it, and expect the readers to eat it up. That's not how storytelling works.

[Kitten Champion]

I don't know much about Miss Marvel (aside from the fact that I find the new one annoying, and tend to drop any story she's heavily involved in),

Hmm.. Ms. Marvel's individual book sales numbers are pretty mediocre, but her trades and digital copies sell really well - is in fact Marvel's digital service best selling title.


Miles Morales isn't even remotely as popular as the character he "replaced". Not even in the same universe of popularity. If it weren't for them constantly shoehorning him into Peter Parker's storylines most people wouldn't even know he existed.

I don't believe I made that claim. Still, his Spider-Man books have regularly outsold Peter's Amazing Spider-Man. Although I suppose we can just unanimously decide he's unpopular based on blind assumptions.

[Avilan the Grey]

Thing is I am usually really irritated by things like this, but I don't really see an issue here other than quite frankly I doubt she will stick around for long because simply I doubt she will sell enough in the long run to be profitable. And I say that as a bad thing. Comics do need more diversity as long as it makes sense.*


*We have been thru this before. I HATE when (primarily) American people blame media from other cultures for Racism just because they don't mirror American population statistics. No, Harry Potter isn't racist because it lacks a certain percentage of black kids in it. Etc.

[SaintRidley]

Since with these things I've been a strong proponent of going to the freaking source, here's the interview where Brian Michael Bendis talks about Riri Williams. http://time.com/4394478/iron-man-riri-williams-tony-stark/?xid=fbshare

The most important line of that interview, I think, is this one:


Some of the comments online, I don’t think people even realize how racist they sound.

[Hopeless]

So unless she's posing as Iron Man for some reason why not Iron Woman?

We seriously if she's a new character give her, her own name unless this is just a cover story why call her Iron Man at all?!

[BiblioRook]

So unless she's posing as Iron Man for some reason why not Iron Woman?

We seriously if she's a new character give her, her own name unless this is just a cover story why call her Iron Man at all?!

I think part of it is that Stark is planned to be stepping down as Iron Man and he's having her take her place. Although it seems she's been thinking about that sort of thing (http://imgur.com/gcmya4M) as well...

[Kitten Champion]

I like Iron Maiden. It's trite maybe, but that's comic book-y in its own way.

[Knaight]

This seems like business as usual to me. Rebooting series every so often with changes that are varying degrees of dramatic is what Marvel and DC do, and while this is sometimes done to stretch characters well past the point they should probably have been retired entirely (e.g. Superman), it's also a nice way to let the writers write without dealing with decades of accumulated cruft produced by a dozen writers before them, of whom nine were talentless hacks.

Sure, the MCU as a distinct entity hasn't seen that yet, and there aren't decades of cruft just yet. On the other hand, the MCU is accumulating cruft unusually quickly, and while it's substantially better than the comics in terms of talentless hacks dragging decrepit premises through the mud (that's more a quirk of the DC movies), the general point of giving writers a fresher slate to start with remains.

[Metahuman1]

I can't help but notice Marvel are running out of Robert Downing Jr. Iron Man movie roles, so they may be looking to down size him in preparation for that, with then hopes of casting this new character for it.

That said, I've seen this handled in a mediocre fashion, and I've seen it handled fairly well actually. So, we shall see. Though right now, what I've seen of the set up for it does not inspire hope.




Then again, I've had it with Stark since Civil War 1, so, there's that.

[Keltest]

I like Iron Maiden. It's trite maybe, but that's comic book-y in its own way.

Personally I cant shake the association with an alleged torture device enough to really grow comfortable with it as a heroic name. Maybe if she were an anti-hero or villain, but there aren't enough spikes right now to justify that name to me.

[Metahuman1]

Unless she's a Gratuitous Metal fangirl, but that might mean paying royalties to the band ever month the.

[Hopeless]

Personally I cant shake the association with an alleged torture device enough to really grow comfortable with it as a heroic name. Maybe if she were an anti-hero or villain, but there aren't enough spikes right now to justify that name to me.

I associated that with the musical variation!

Why not?
Unless Stark wants to keep her identity a secret since if they think he's still a man it will protect her from Stark's enemies but once she starts working for him that isn't going to make much of a difference but given that link suggests otherwise a name change should be necessary shouldn't it?

[BiblioRook]

Why not?
Unless Stark wants to keep her identity a secret since if they think he's still a man it will protect her from Stark's enemies but once she starts working for him that isn't going to make much of a difference but given that link suggests otherwise a name change should be necessary shouldn't it?

It might be a creditably issue, people would feel more reassured that Iron Man 'himself' is involved as compared to a new hero that they never heard of (even if that is kind of literally the case). Not to mention that she is a 15 year old girl, no matter how capable she may (or may not) be that probably won't look well. Ether people will not take her seriously or Stark runs the issue of getting flack for sending a child into danger in his stead.

[Metahuman1]

It might be a creditably issue, people would feel more reassured that Iron Man 'himself' is involved as compared to a new hero that they never heard of (even if that is kind of literally the case). Not to mention that she is a 15 year old girl, no matter how capable she may (or may not) be that probably won't look well. Ether people will not take her seriously or Stark runs the issue of getting flack for sending a child into danger in his stead.

And given his history prior to this as of Civil War..........

[Kitten Champion]

Unless she's a Gratuitous Metal fangirl, but that might mean paying royalties to the band ever month the.

Nah, there are already several characters who've been called Iron Maiden in the MU - though clearly none that are particularly memorable - so presumably that's not an issue. I assume Iron Maiden has rights over their logo and music but not the words specifically, not that I'm an intellectual property lawyer or anything.


It might be a creditably issue, people would feel more reassured that Iron Man 'himself' is involved as compared to a new hero that they never heard of (even if that is kind of literally the case). Not to mention that she is a 15 year old girl, no matter how capable she may (or may not) be that probably won't look well. Ether people will not take her seriously or Stark runs the issue of getting flack for sending a child into danger in his stead.

Ah, that's true. Though the comic page you posted before implies she wants her own name, I could see that as a story concept to go with for a while at least. The idea that the suit can fully mask the occupants identity has been something they've played with a lot over the years, it was even an important plot point in Iron Man 3.

[BiblioRook]

Ah, that's true. Though the comic page you posted before implies she wants her own name, I could see that as a story concept to go with for a while at least. The idea that the suit can fully mask the occupants identity has been something they've played with a lot over the years, it was even an important plot point in Iron Man 3.

Well so far in the comic Riri has yet to so much as get a lick of contact with Stark and she's still just joy-riding around in her own home-made suit with idle dreams of grandeur, I imagine things would be pretty different once she's taken on in a more official capacity.

[Merellis]

Eh.

I don't see this as an insult at all, I've been enjoying Ms. Marvel since she was introduced, and Miles has been a fun ride so far.

They want to diversify and add new characters to the Marvel Universe through the use of Legacy Characters? Why should I feel bad about it? We've seen it all the time in the DC universe with the Flash, Batman, and the like. It's a good way to import them into the setting and move on from there. We've had all sorts of Robin's over the years and that's never harmed anything.

-shrugs-

I'm looking forwards to this, and from what I've seen of Riri, she's hilarious.

Seriously, building your own mecha suit in your dormroom while snatching materials from the campus? Hilarious. Even better when she's like "I REALLY NEED TO MAKE AN AI FOR THIS" as she's nearly falling to her death. This is gonna be fun. :smallbiggrin:

[DigoDragon]

I'm okay with the idea of this new lady as Iron Man. I saw some drawings and she seems fine for the role, but I'm curious if they're keeping all the hair (assuming the drawing I saw (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36731596) is a final draft).

Is that going to fit in the suit's helmet? Or maybe she builds the helmet differently? Honestly only curious to know the art direction with that.

[Thrudd]

I like Iron Maiden. It's trite maybe, but that's comic book-y in its own way.
Riri's friend in the comic already suggested that one to her, and it was received with a resounding "eh". All the obvious ones were suggested to her, and she didn't like any of them.

[Calemyr]

The concept of a new MCU Iron Man would be interesting. Stark in the MCU has clearly shown fatigue (not the actor or our enjoyment of the character, but the character himself is increasingly worn down by events), and his interactions with Parker indicate he's more interested in management and training a new generation than keeping up himself. If he could find a true protege, one he felt he could trust to live up to legacy and not turn into another rip-off villain, he'd jump at it. He feels obligated to be Iron Man, but is growing resentful of what that obligation is costing him and would gladly pass the mantle if he could do so in good conscience.

Riri Williams? Never seen the character, but I'd be for it if they did her well. By well, the first thing that comes to mind is that she must not be "the black female Iron Man". She should be Riri Williams, who is taking up the Iron Man legacy. She also happens to be black and female. I know it can be hard to see the difference there, but it's both tiny and huge at the same time. A character should be themselves, not defined by labels put on them. If you can go through an entire story and never actually think about her race or gender, to the point that she's simply Riri, I will be pleased.

One of the things I really loved about RDJ's Iron Man was the R&D. Trial and error, revision after revision, upgrade after upgrade, always trying to improve upon the suit. Stark was brilliant, but in a way that Hollywood geniuses rarely are: constantly failing and learning and adapting and finding new ways to fail and repeat the cycle. If Riri kept that up (such as the mentioned "huh, I really need an AI to handle this kind of thing" while plummeting through the air), I'll be happy to watch her.

Short hand, the difference between a diverse cast and insulting tokenism is that it's fine to use such labels to describe a character, but not to define a character.

[Keltest]

I'm okay with the idea of this new lady as Iron Man. I saw some drawings and she seems fine for the role, but I'm curious if they're keeping all the hair (assuming the drawing I saw (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36731596) is a final draft).

Is that going to fit in the suit's helmet? Or maybe she builds the helmet differently? Honestly only curious to know the art direction with that.

Hair like that actually compresses pretty well. Id imagine she would have some sort of headgear she wears before getting into the suit so it doesn't get in front of her HUD in the middle of a flight (or maybe she doesn't! And she gets blinded by it and smacks comically into something), or at the very least ties it back.

[Anteros]

I don't believe I made that claim. Still, his Spider-Man books have regularly outsold Peter's Amazing Spider-Man. Although I suppose we can just unanimously decide he's unpopular based on blind assumptions.

You can make almost any argument by taking a few statistics out of context. Pete is supporting multiple books, multiple movie franchises, and a cartoon. He's also more popular to non hardcore comic fans to a degree that isn't even comparable. There's no real argument to be had at all.

It's not even a problem with Miles' character. It's just that you can't expect a completely new character to compete with several lifetimes worth of brand recognition just because you slap the brand name on them.

[Ramza00]

It might be a creditably issue, people would feel more reassured that Iron Man 'himself' is involved as compared to a new hero that they never heard of (even if that is kind of literally the case). Not to mention that she is a 15 year old girl, no matter how capable she may (or may not) be that probably won't look well. Ether people will not take her seriously or Stark runs the issue of getting flack for sending a child into danger in his stead.

I would like to second the age thing is the biggest deal of this news, not the women, not the black, but that the character is going to be age 15.

To put this into comparison Young Avengers Iron Lad was 16 as well as most of the Young Avengers were also 16 +/- 1 year when that title was launched in the 2005.

Having that young of super heroes is not new, having them in the main contempary as replacement to adult heroes is a new thing.

[BiblioRook]

With that I kind of agree, why make her so young? It feels like all they are saying is "We just want to make clear, she's really smart...", but being a student at MIT or building an Iron Man suit from scratch doesn't already say that?

It makes me worried about her transition to being a superhero honestly, both in her obvious lack of experience as well as a possible lack of maturity in dealing with the dangers that being Iron Man would bring (considering she built the suit not out of any personal need but rather just to prove she could).

[Thrudd]

With that I kind of agree, why make her so young? It feels like all they are saying is "We just want to make clear, she's really smart...", but being a student at MIT or building an Iron Man suit from scratch doesn't already say that?

It makes me worried about her transition to being a superhero honestly, both in her obvious lack of experience as well as a possible lack of maturity in dealing with the dangers that being Iron Man would bring (considering she built the suit not out of any personal need but rather just to prove she could).

That seems to be the trend with all the new heroes. Half the Avengers: not "young avengers" or "avengers academy", the actual avengers: are younger than 18. Tony and Sam are supposedly training them, but they are dealing with serious stuff, and most of them aren't old enough to drive. Nova is dangerously immature, and Kamala isn't much better. Miles is the most experienced of them.

[Merellis]

With that I kind of agree, why make her so young? It feels like all they are saying is "We just want to make clear, she's really smart...", but being a student at MIT or building an Iron Man suit from scratch doesn't already say that?

It makes me worried about her transition to being a superhero honestly, both in her obvious lack of experience as well as a possible lack of maturity in dealing with the dangers that being Iron Man would bring (considering she built the suit not out of any personal need but rather just to prove she could).

There's teen supers all over the damn place in the Marvel Universe.

Literally all over the place.

Hell, if they're making all these teen supers again, just bring back former teen superhero Spidey and have him dole out advice all over the place. Seriously, it's always fun like that. (http://loisfreakinglane.tumblr.com/post/110788579453/endless-evidence-that-peter-parker-is-most)

[DigoDragon]

Hair like that actually compresses pretty well. Id imagine she would have some sort of headgear she wears before getting into the suit so it doesn't get in front of her HUD in the middle of a flight (or maybe she doesn't! And she gets blinded by it and smacks comically into something), or at the very least ties it back.

That would be entertaining to see her hair get in her face the first time she uses the helmet. Maybe she redesigns the deployment method to unfold front to back so it ties her hair away from her face? That might work.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The concept of a new MCU Iron Man would be interesting. Stark in the MCU has clearly shown fatigue (not the actor or our enjoyment of the character, but the character himself is increasingly worn down by events), and his interactions with Parker indicate he's more interested in management and training a new generation than keeping up himself. If he could find a true protege, one he felt he could trust to live up to legacy and not turn into another rip-off villain, he'd jump at it. He feels obligated to be Iron Man, but is growing resentful of what that obligation is costing him and would gladly pass the mantle if he could do so in good conscience.

Riri Williams? Never seen the character, but I'd be for it if they did her well. By well, the first thing that comes to mind is that she must not be "the black female Iron Man". She should be Riri Williams, who is taking up the Iron Man legacy. She also happens to be black and female. I know it can be hard to see the difference there, but it's both tiny and huge at the same time. A character should be themselves, not defined by labels put on them. If you can go through an entire story and never actually think about her race or gender, to the point that she's simply Riri, I will be pleased.

One of the things I really loved about RDJ's Iron Man was the R&D. Trial and error, revision after revision, upgrade after upgrade, always trying to improve upon the suit. Stark was brilliant, but in a way that Hollywood geniuses rarely are: constantly failing and learning and adapting and finding new ways to fail and repeat the cycle. If Riri kept that up (such as the mentioned "huh, I really need an AI to handle this kind of thing" while plummeting through the air), I'll be happy to watch her.

Short hand, the difference between a diverse cast and insulting tokenism is that it's fine to use such labels to describe a character, but not to define a character.

So much all of this. The move to any new superhero doesn't bother me as long as the new character is entertaining and breathes fresh life into an established premise. If they are replacing Tony with Riri just to have a black female super hero then yeah, not a fan of the idea.

If they are replacing Tony with Riri because Riri is a comparatively interesting individual who can bring a fresh take to the Iron Man premise (who happens to be black and female) then I am interested. In other words I don't mind one bit so long as Riri is a character and not just a diversity token replacement....though it will be really hard to let go of RDJ's Iron Man just based on RDJ's performance of him.

[t209]

How long until she get to be in comic?
Anyone remember Ryan Choi?

[Kitten Champion]

You can make almost any argument by taking a few statistics out of context. Pete is supporting multiple books, multiple movie franchises, and a cartoon. He's also more popular to non hardcore comic fans to a degree that isn't even comparable. There's no real argument to be had at all.

It's not even a problem with Miles' character. It's just that you can't expect a completely new character to compete with several lifetimes worth of brand recognition just because you slap the brand name on them.

You can also make any argument you want when you ignore the person you're arguing to make an unrelated point. I never said Miles was more popular than Peter Parker, Peter Parker is the most popular hero in the world by a substantive margin if merchandise sales are any indication. What I did say was Miles became a popular character which sustains a solo comic with strong sales figures (which he does) and a devoted fanbase all of which you've dismissed glibly. None of which is undermined by the fact that Peter Parker still exists and is precisely what this whole thread is about.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

The concept of a new MCU Iron Man would be interesting. Stark in the MCU has clearly shown fatigue (not the actor or our enjoyment of the character, but the character himself is increasingly worn down by events), and his interactions with Parker indicate he's more interested in management and training a new generation than keeping up himself. If he could find a true protege, one he felt he could trust to live up to legacy and not turn into another rip-off villain, he'd jump at it. He feels obligated to be Iron Man, but is growing resentful of what that obligation is costing him and would gladly pass the mantle if he could do so in good conscience.

Riri Williams? Never seen the character, but I'd be for it if they did her well. By well, the first thing that comes to mind is that she must not be "the black female Iron Man". She should be Riri Williams, who is taking up the Iron Man legacy. She also happens to be black and female. I know it can be hard to see the difference there, but it's both tiny and huge at the same time. A character should be themselves, not defined by labels put on them. If you can go through an entire story and never actually think about her race or gender, to the point that she's simply Riri, I will be pleased.

One of the things I really loved about RDJ's Iron Man was the R&D. Trial and error, revision after revision, upgrade after upgrade, always trying to improve upon the suit. Stark was brilliant, but in a way that Hollywood geniuses rarely are: constantly failing and learning and adapting and finding new ways to fail and repeat the cycle. If Riri kept that up (such as the mentioned "huh, I really need an AI to handle this kind of thing" while plummeting through the air), I'll be happy to watch her.

Short hand, the difference between a diverse cast and insulting tokenism is that it's fine to use such labels to describe a character, but not to define a character.

I think you would like it then if you had read it. The very first thing we learn is "A kid at MIT tried to back engineer the suit and did so in there dorm..." no race or sex mentioned... in fact I assumed it was a guy at the time.

two months later when we see Riri she isn't really depicted as anything other then a genius kid...

[Knaight]

Hair like that actually compresses pretty well. Id imagine she would have some sort of headgear she wears before getting into the suit so it doesn't get in front of her HUD in the middle of a flight (or maybe she doesn't! And she gets blinded by it and smacks comically into something), or at the very least ties it back.

I have long hair and have worn helmets. It's not an issue.

[Thrudd]

That would be entertaining to see her hair get in her face the first time she uses the helmet. Maybe she redesigns the deployment method to unfold front to back so it ties her hair away from her face? That might work.

She's already flown her suit, with helmet, and it shows her without hair in her face. So it presumably is not an issue.

[Traab]

I have long hair and have worn helmets. It's not an issue.

Pfft, try it wearing that helmet and changing directions at 5 gs like you are on a rollercoaster with adhd and it doesnt like you. THEN talk about hair not being an issue! :smallbiggrin: Also, I feel I should expand on my point. I didnt mean to claim there was no built in reason for her to replace stark as iron man, my complaint is replacing iron man at all. There are a dozen directions they could have gone in to make her a mecha piloting super hero in training without taking on the role of iron man. Literally the entire story could remain exactly as it is. Only instead of training a replacement who will wear his logo and take his place in the comic series, she gets to establish herself as entirely her own character, and potentially, her own franchise. Instead of a new iron man, she could be MECHA

Multi
Ethnic
Chick
Has
Armor

(I am totally freaking kidding, please dont hurt me. )

[t209]

Pfft, try it wearing that helmet and changing directions at 5 gs like you are on a rollercoaster with adhd and it doesnt like you. THEN talk about hair not being an issue! :smallbiggrin: Also, I feel I should expand on my point. I didnt mean to claim there was no built in reason for her to replace stark as iron man, my complaint is replacing iron man at all. There are a dozen directions they could have gone in to make her a mecha piloting super hero in training without taking on the role of iron man. Literally the entire story could remain exactly as it is. Only instead of training a replacement who will wear his logo and take his place in the comic series, she gets to establish herself as entirely her own character, and potentially, her own franchise. Instead of a new iron man, she could be MECHA

Multi
Ethnic
Chick
Has
Armor

(I am totally freaking kidding, please dont hurt me. )
Afro pony tail?
Afro cover that is like hoodie but for helmet?

[BiblioRook]

Hell, if they're making all these teen supers again, just bring back former teen superhero Spidey and have him dole out advice all over the place. Seriously, it's always fun like that. (http://loisfreakinglane.tumblr.com/post/110788579453/endless-evidence-that-peter-parker-is-most)

It's possible that that has a lot to do with whats going on here. Marvel usually does a good job at making superheroes that still feel human (even the ones that aren't) and over time people grow, progress, and change. Problem is that even when that change is positive for the story or the character it might not be 'positive' for the readers. Peter Parker is a perfect example of this, going from awkward high-schooler to penniless newspaper photographer to now globetrotting multimillionaire. Great for Peter, but not everyone was thrilled about this as Peter Parker just being a common Joe was supposed to be a big part of his charm, not only that but his new Tony Stark level status made it harder and harder for him to excuse going of for some street-level vigilantism. Enter Miles.

Not only that, in addition to all this switching from a grizzled old veteran to a younger less experienced replacement also allows writes to maybe take a step back for a bit of a breather. After wave after wave of big tier threats like Thanos and whatnot maybe this new hero can focus on things more like on the level of Batroc the Leaper for a bit to get in stride while the other big heroes handle the big stuff.


Also talking about big heroes, with all the talk about legacy heroes I'm surprised no one mentioned probably one of the biggest legacy success stories of them all: Captain Marvel.
I mean I forgot to bring her up myself because it's hard to even think she was originally just a legacy character (I honestly even wonder just how many people even remember the original Captain Marvel) and now she's arguably one of the most important figures in the Marvel universe.
(To be clear, because I feel someone is going to contest me on this, I mean important in the in-universe sense regardless of meta-popularity or sales or such)

[Ranxerox]

My only problem, actually worry would be a better is descriptor, is her surface similarities to Moon Girl. I adore Moon Girl and am afraid that the new Iron Man will cause them to shelve her in favor of Riri. That being said it would be great fun if Riri and Lunella formed a big sister/little sister relationship, so I have my fingers crossed.

[Chives]

I'm sorry, what happened to the *other* multi-ethnic teenage girl in armor, Y'know. Armor? Hisako Ichiki? The girl with a interesting and unique power set who grows up to be co-leader of the Avengers? None of that?

Oh right, Marvel. Because why work on existing characters when you can hype people up with the next big thing. :smallfurious: ****, I used to love this stuff.

[Mister Loorg]

Now, I'm not a big comic book fan, but from the interview and the replies on this thread alone, I'm concluding that this is a fifteen-year old girl who is already in college and built an Iron Man suit,


With that I kind of agree, why make her so young? It feels like all they are saying is "We just want to make clear, she's really smart...", but being a student at MIT or building an Iron Man suit from scratch doesn't already say that?

and when met with criticism Bendis immediately plays the race card. From what I'm getting this seems to be a Sue character. Does her appearance in the comics make an attempt to balance all these positive traits out?

[t209]

My only problem, actually worry would be a better is descriptor, is her surface similarities to Moon Girl. I adore Moon Girl and am afraid that the new Iron Man will cause them to shelve her in favor of Riri. That being said it would be great fun if Riri and Lunella formed a big sister/little sister relationship, so I have my fingers crossed.
Depends Marvel decided to feel that someone must be picked to make the villains threatening.
Ryan Choi, Casey Lang, various Teen Titans and X-Men kids, Lian Harper, and Ceridian says hello from afterlife.

[BiblioRook]

t209's weird obsession aside (never mind most of those examples were DC, the only real Marvel one being Casey who is still alive), I honestly adore Moon Girl too, her title currently is easily near the top of my read list right now (under Squirrel Girl). That being said, I really kind of hope the two never interact. Someone like Moon Girl I don't want to get involved in super-hero antics as much as I want to see her get the peaceful 'normal' life she wants and deserves. Again, as much as I love her comic I don't really see it having a lasting presence as most of it is 'Weird stuff keeps happening, how do I stop it!"

I mean, for all my complaints of Riri being too young at 15 to be getting into mainstream super-hero antics, Moon Girl is indefinitely more so.

[t209]

t209's weird obsession aside (never mind most of those examples were DC, the only real Marvel one being Casey who is still alive), I honestly adore Moon Girl too, her title currently is easily near the top of my read list right now (under Squirrel Girl). That being said, I really kind of hope the two never interact. Someone like Moon Girl I don't want to get involved in super-hero antics as much as I want to see her get the peaceful 'normal' life she wants and deserves. Again, as much as I love her comic I don't really see it having a lasting presence as most of it is 'Weird stuff keeps happening, how do I stop it!"
Well, having watched Atop The Fourth Wall, seeing characters killed off left and right, and cynical fans can do to me.
Yeah, I am having bad feelings already when a "diverse and new characters" were introduced.
I did say X-Men kids though and Casey....she was dead in Children's Crusade to make Doom scarier.

[BiblioRook]

Cynicism aside it just kind of feels like the Occam's Razor of comic book discussions. Yes stuff like that happens, but it seems inane to expect it around every corner right from the get-go.

[Noldo]

I think you would like it then if you had read it. The very first thing we learn is "A kid at MIT tried to back engineer the suit and did so in there dorm..." no race or sex mentioned... in fact I assumed it was a guy at the time.

two months later when we see Riri she isn't really depicted as anything other then a genius kid...

Do you think that they could use/play with that presumption further in the comics? Like a moment where Tony is raving at "what the guy has now come up with" and AI correcting him that "she's a gal, actually" or would that draw unnecessary/illfounded attention to her gender and prejudice?

[khadgar567]

I dont care she is female we need some sexy heroes who can wear and work with inappropriate gear ( aka we need more heroes like emma frost( without the telepath powers ))

[Drascin]

Cynicism aside it just kind of feels like the Occam's Razor of comic book discussions. Yes stuff like that happens, but it seems inane to expect it around every corner right from the get-go.

Expecting cancellations is just the comic's fans' way of dulling the pain. Because by and large, new heroes don't last long. Expecting everything to go to hell and then being pleasantly surprised in the instances that it doesn't is a survival mechanism, I think :smalltongue:.

Remember Robbie Reyes? The new Hispanic, likable, family-focused Ghost Rider that made the endlessly dumb Ghost Rider franchise actually worth reading? Dude's solo lasted 12 issues before the secret wars thing happened, where he became one of an ensemble of a dozen other Ghost Riders for four more issues, and from there, zip. There haven't been any plans mentioned to get him another book.

And Robbie's story is hardly unique.

[BiblioRook]

I dont care she is female we need some sexy heroes who can wear and work with inappropriate gear ( aka we need more heroes like emma frost( without the telepath powers ))

Is it really necessary to point out again that she's only 15?


Expecting cancellations is just the comic's fans' way of dulling the pain. Because by and large, new heroes don't last long. Expecting everything to go to hell and then being pleasantly surprised in the instances that it doesn't is a survival mechanism, I think :smalltongue:.

Cancellations I can accept, but I was talking about t209's fixation that the Marvel Universe is overdue for some sort of horrific grisly pointless deaths for the sake of upping the drama out of nowhere.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's not fair to compare this to Rhodey. Him being Ironman wasn't something that they " Realized was stupid" They played the story to completion and at the end of the story Tony came back as was the whole plan. He was filling in, and never implied to be a replacement. And afterwards he became even more of an amazing character in part because of his time as Ironman.

I'm more upset that Marvel killed him off in Civil War 2 for shock value.

...

...

*sigh*

Of course they did. Why on Earth would they have done something as silly as doing a decent job like the Civil War movie did with him...?




I'm sorry, what happened to the *other* multi-ethnic teenage girl in armor, Y'know. Armor? Hisako Ichiki? The girl with a interesting and unique power set who grows up to be co-leader of the Avengers? None of that?

Oh right, Marvel. Because why work on existing characters when you can hype people up with the next big thing. :smallfurious: ****, I used to love this stuff.

She's an X-Man and therefore needs to be sent on a bus because they don't own the movie rights.

It is heavily indicated that IS actually what is happening, and since they are trying to get rid of (until they are no longer profitable to Fox (which is not likely to happen)) their most diverse set of characters (the X-Men), this may simple be another factor of that to "replace" the likes of Storm and whatnot...



But I really wish they would stop trying to replace existant characters with new ones or characters that already HAD their own identities... Supplement, yes, replace.. No.

Especially as the cynic in me is starting to see a little too much of a pattern... Thor, Cap, Iron Man (unholy crap they're trying to replace all of the Avengers, Hulk's got to be next, then), Wolverine... Miles I would only half-count, since he started out in an alternate universe and didn't directly replace Peter , which is fair enough play. (Though I'm not sure what happened post Battlenonsenseworld, I heard rumour he was going to co-exist in the main Marvel universe. Nick fury, I suppose, too; though Sam L Jackson is Suffiently Awesome I am prepared to give them a pass on that, since he is in the category (alongside BRIAN BLESSED and Jennifer Hale) as being Anything You Cast Him As Is Automatically Awesome.

Question, then: has Marvel attempted any legacy characters that were not a) originally white males and b) not replaced by someone who was not-white-males in the last ten or so years? I mean, all the aforementioned are big, visible names, but if this has happened with other lesser known characters then it's a bit more credible other than being basically just a publicity stunt which is starting to edge towards dodgy territory.

Ms Marvel, I guess, since she was promoted to Captain for Kamala's slot...

Any others people can think of?

[BiblioRook]

(unholy crap they're trying to replace all of the Avengers, Hulk's got to be next, then)

Hate to break it to you, but the Hulk has been replaced for a while now (http://www.captainbluehen.com/wp-content/totally_awesome_hulk_1_cho_variant_1.jpg)

[khadgar567]

Hate to break it to you, but the Hulk has been replaced for a while now (http://www.captainbluehen.com/wp-content/totally_awesome_hulk_1_cho_variant_1.jpg)
Replaced by nerd with power watch called amodeus cho

[Aotrs Commander]

Hate to break it to you, but the Hulk has been replaced for a while now (http://www.captainbluehen.com/wp-content/totally_awesome_hulk_1_cho_variant_1.jpg)

Okay, so they HAVE replaced the entire Avengers.

Well.

That is clearly a thing they have done.

[Thrudd]

...

...

*sigh*

Of course they did. Why on Earth would they have done something as silly as doing a decent job like the Civil War movie did with him...?





She's an X-Man and therefore needs to be sent on a bus because they don't own the movie rights.

It is heavily indicated that IS actually what is happening, and since they are trying to get rid of (until they are no longer profitable to Fox (which is not likely to happen)) their most diverse set of characters (the X-Men), this may simple be another factor of that to "replace" the likes of Storm and whatnot...



But I really wish they would stop trying to replace existant characters with new ones or characters that already HAD their own identities... Supplement, yes, replace.. No.

Especially as the cynic in me is starting to see a little too much of a pattern... Thor, Cap, Iron Man (unholy crap they're trying to replace all of the Avengers, Hulk's got to be next, then), Wolverine... Miles I would only half-count, since he started out in an alternate universe and didn't directly replace Peter , which is fair enough play. (Though I'm not sure what happened post Battlenonsenseworld, I heard rumour he was going to co-exist in the main Marvel universe. Nick fury, I suppose, too; though Sam L Jackson is Suffiently Awesome I am prepared to give them a pass on that, since he is in the category (alongside BRIAN BLESSED and Jennifer Hale) as being Anything You Cast Him As Is Automatically Awesome.

Question, then: has Marvel attempted any legacy characters that were not a) originally white males and b) not replaced by someone who was not-white-males in the last ten or so years? I mean, all the aforementioned are big, visible names, but if this has happened with other lesser known characters then it's a bit more credible other than being basically just a publicity stunt which is starting to edge towards dodgy territory.

Ms Marvel, I guess, since she was promoted to Captain for Kamala's slot...

Any others people can think of?

You're not totally wrong, but not totally right, either. Yes, X-23 is now the new wolverine, but Old Man Logan is here, too. Thor Odinson still exists, he was last shown apparently captive of some aliens on a spaceship, though the goddess of thunder is definitely the prominent one. Amadeus Cho is Hulk, but Bruce Banner is still around (at the moment apparently completely cured of gamma power). Adult Peter Parker is still spider man, alongside Miles. Steve Rogers Captain America is still here, and restored to youth by a cosmic cube (to much controversy in his new title), alongside Sam Wilson. They haven't replaced any other characters that I can think of. It isn't determined whether or not Iron Man is being replaced, just that there is a new character with an armor suit (and Tony isn't shown in the promo picture that everyone is talking about, but neither are a lot of characters). If anything, she's likely replacing war machine (though it is possible that Civil War II might not turn out well for Tony, either).

But yes, they are clearly making a concerted effort to diversify the cast of their prominent heroes, even if the original white guys are still hanging around in some form.

[lord_khaine]

Adult Peter Parker is still spider man, alongside Miles.

I would actually not mind if Peter were partly retired, due to being happily married and having his hands full with a comming child.

[Ravian]

I kind of like her.

Her concept just seems cool to me "Child Prodigy is inspired by Tony Stark to build her own Iron Man Suit in her Dorm room with scraps." she sounds like exactly the kind of person that Tony would take on as a protege or successor.

I care about interesting characters, and this Riri girl sounds like she has a lot of spunk going for her.

Granted I think I would prefer them making new characters entirely, but I can also understand the feeling of attaching a pre-existing "brand" to them. That's the kind of the reason why they have team titles, because its comparatively easier to stick a new character on the team and see how they perform than try to see how they do on their own.

My sentiment is that, they're not really replacing characters, they're bringing in new characters with a recognizable chassis while the old guys are still around in more supportive roles.

It also does address one of the big problems with long-running comics, eventually the character runs low on stories you can tell with them. Solution, bring in a new character.

[khadgar567]

Is parker still maried to marry jane or we have another gwen stacy to retcon again plus how about silk( peters class mate biten by same spider)

[t209]

Is parker still maried to marry jane or we have another gwen stacy to retcon again plus how about silk( peters class mate biten by same spider)
In order,
- Nope. But Spidergirl still exists in alternate universe except her dad died though :smallfrown:.
- Well, Gwen is alive in new story arc involving undead.
- Silk exists.

I would actually not mind if Peter were partly retired, due to being happily married and having his hands full with a comming child.
The answer is that he's still a bachelor.

[Aotrs Commander]

You're not totally wrong, but not totally right, either. Yes, X-23 is now the new wolverine, but Old Man Logan is here, too.

Oh, I had blocked that out of my mind for a moment; don't get me started oin that particular pile of utter crap. By far the absolute WORST Wolverine arc I have ever had to have the misfortune of reading (the bits where Dakin took over and shoved Wolverine out of his own title don't count becfause they the weren't actually, y'know, Wolverine), one that I was only not offended that thye put the concluding parts in a seperate book because I was just glad to get rid of it and they bring THAT bollocks out of Battlecrapworld. The most positive thing I can say about that particualr stain on the annuals of comic book history was that is was better than the Battleidioticworld version of Runaways in that I didn't specifically keep over the winter months until it was dry enough to take it out a ritually burn it.



The damnest part of it is - I actually LIKE X-23! I followed her solo series and would have kept on if they hadn't cancelled it. But by the time the post Battlestupidstupidstupidworld crap had finished up, the only reason I'm still reading anything Marvel at all is X-'92 because Jubilee and they are on their very, very, very last chance. (I nearly ragequit when in the second issue they made her a vampire again, but they earned enough brownie points back for making me laugh so hard at the end of that arc that they actually got a fraction of a point back.




Thor Odinson still exists, he was last shown apparently captive of some aliens on a spaceship, though the goddess of thunder is definitely the prominent one. Amadeus Cho is Hulk, but Bruce Banner is still around (at the moment apparently completely cured of gamma power). Adult Peter Parker is still spider man, alongside Miles. Steve Rogers Captain America is still here, and restored to youth by a cosmic cube (to much controversy in his new title), alongside Sam Wilson. They haven't replaced any other characters that I can think of. It isn't determined whether or not Iron Man is being replaced, just that there is a new character with an armor suit (and Tony isn't shown in the promo picture that everyone is talking about, but neither are a lot of characters). If anything, she's likely replacing war machine (though it is possible that Civil War II might not turn out well for Tony, either).

But yes, they are clearly making a concerted effort to diversify the cast of their prominent heroes, even if the original white guys are still hanging around in some form.

The stupid part is that if they didn't just keep trying to bank on shock value and "we're replacing x with y", none of the backlash would be happening and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. (Hell, I LIKE big ensemble casts.) I would say no-one at Marvel seems to know how to present anything anymore but I'm becoming convinced they are deliberately doing stuff like this as a publicity stunt to set the internet aflame.

[t209]

The stupid part is that if they didn't just keep trying to bank on shock value and "we're replacing x with y", none of the backlash would be happening and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. (Hell, I LIKE big ensemble casts.) I would say no-one at Marvel seems to know how to present anything anymore but I'm becoming convinced they are deliberately doing stuff like this as a publicity stunt to set the internet aflame.
And retconning Inhuman slavery and Eugenics to make them more like X-Men.
And failed to realize that they are basically making a group of elitist eugenics gas isolationists (let's not forget inbred) as marginalized minorities.
Let's see Kamala gets to smile at having cloned slave and getting assigned to lower caste (but not at the level as equivalent of Serf) even if she would be decent one.

[BiblioRook]

Is parker still maried to marry jane or we have another gwen stacy to retcon again plus how about silk( peters class mate biten by same spider)

In order,
- Nope. But Spidergirl still exists in alternate universe except her dad died though :smallfrown:.
- Well, Gwen is alive in new story arc involving undead.
- Silk exists.

The answer is that he's still a bachelor.

To clarify a few things:
Peter and Mary Jane haven't been an item for nearly a decade, but that is a whole other thing not worth getting into here as it's unrelated to the topic at hand. Currently as I mentioned Peter is more of a secondary Tony Stark as he's now something of a globe-trotting billionaire who has Spider-Man on 'retainer' as his 'bodyguard' to explain why they are always around the same places (he even has someone else who's job is to dress up and act like Spidey just so they can be seen together on occasion). Mary Jane? That's a bit weirder. Currently she is working for Tony Stark (http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/450/0/1/INVIM2015010-DC11-724b0.jpg) of all people and is a major character in his title. It's implied that there is still some form of communication between Peter and Mary Jane as she had access to his super-secret-emergency number which Stark had to get from her (to his surprise that they even knew each other), but I don't think that anything along those line has been really explained or explored yet.

Gwen Stacy exists as an alternate dimension version of herself where she got bitten by the spider and Peter was her ill-fated love interest (see SpiderGwen). She is aware of and can freely access the main dimension (she and Peter are aware of each other and have even met), but by in large she sticks to her own. Somewhat related to the thread, in her world this is her Captain America (https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/pfjnaepnv5shl2poa2hk.png).


Oh, I had blocked that out of my mind for a moment; don't get me started oin that particular pile of utter crap. By far the absolute WORST Wolverine arc I have ever had to have the misfortune of reading (the bits where Dakin took over and shoved Wolverine out of his own title don't count becfause they the weren't actually, y'know, Wolverine), one that I was only not offended that thye put the concluding parts in a seperate book because I was just glad to get rid of it and they bring THAT bollocks out of Battlecrapworld. The most positive thing I can say about that particualr stain on the annuals of comic book history was that is was better than the Battleidioticworld version of Runaways in that I didn't specifically keep over the winter months until it was dry enough to take it out a ritually burn it.



The damnest part of it is - I actually LIKE X-23! I followed her solo series and would have kept on if they hadn't cancelled it. But by the time the post Battlestupidstupidstupidworld crap had finished up, the only reason I'm still reading anything Marvel at all is X-'92 because Jubilee and they are on their very, very, very last chance. (I nearly ragequit when in the second issue they made her a vampire again, but they earned enough brownie points back for making me laugh so hard at the end of that arc that they actually got a fraction of a point back.

The current All-New All-Different Wolverine series (x-23) is actually really good. If you like her as a character you might possibly want to at least give it a chance.
As for OML, much like SpiderQwen and Miles he is an alternate dimension version of Wolverine (to clarify from, oh, a time displaced Wolverine I guess). He's basically a whole other character outside people going "Oh hey, you are like our own Wolverine only quite a bit different!". X-23 for one wants nothing to do with him because she considers him a cruel facsimile of the mentor that she lost, so another point in her favor?

[Aotrs Commander]

The current All-New All-Different Wolverine series (x-23) is actually really good. If you like her as a character you might possibly want to at least give it a chance.
As for OML, much like SpiderQwen and Miles he is an alternate dimension version of Wolverine (to clarify from, oh, a time displaced Wolverine I guess). He's basically a whole other character outside people going "Oh hey, you are like our own Wolverine only quite a bit different!". X-23 for one wants nothing to do with him because she considers him a cruel facsimile of the mentor that she lost, so another point in her favor?

And that's exactly the problem. By killing Wolvie off and replacing him with a minus-infinity-rate knock off, they've denied us all the future interactions between Laura (and Jubilee) and Wolverine. And they never really explored anything like that properly, either, so it's not like there wre no untapped grounds. Where's my story arc with Laura, Jubes and Wolvie going off on a roadtrip or something (to deal with some sort of Bad Thing). Well, that ain't happening now, is it?

This is my fundemental problem with character death - it trades on using an emotional shock now (usually very poorly handled) verses the value of all the character's future interactions.

Rhodey is a grand case in point.

My expectations for the movie were set to a low level in no small part to the fact I was fully expecting them to kill Rhodey (see, comics, this is where you've trained my mind to go). I was SO GLAD they didn't - not only it remove the shadow that had hung over my head for most of the movie, but it also allowed us that wonderful scene at the end with Rhodey and Tony, while Rhodey starts on the long process of healing.

So comics killing him off - won't ever give us that (outside of medium chance resurrection). I say "medium" because Banshee was a major X-Men since the very start and he's still dead as far as I know.)

[Thrudd]

Oh, I had blocked that out of my mind for a moment; don't get me started oin that particular pile of utter crap. By far the absolute WORST Wolverine arc I have ever had to have the misfortune of reading (the bits where Dakin took over and shoved Wolverine out of his own title don't count becfause they the weren't actually, y'know, Wolverine), one that I was only not offended that thye put the concluding parts in a seperate book because I was just glad to get rid of it and they bring THAT bollocks out of Battlecrapworld. The most positive thing I can say about that particualr stain on the annuals of comic book history was that is was better than the Battleidioticworld version of Runaways in that I didn't specifically keep over the winter months until it was dry enough to take it out a ritually burn it.



The damnest part of it is - I actually LIKE X-23! I followed her solo series and would have kept on if they hadn't cancelled it. But by the time the post Battlestupidstupidstupidworld crap had finished up, the only reason I'm still reading anything Marvel at all is X-'92 because Jubilee and they are on their very, very, very last chance. (I nearly ragequit when in the second issue they made her a vampire again, but they earned enough brownie points back for making me laugh so hard at the end of that arc that they actually got a fraction of a point back.





The stupid part is that if they didn't just keep trying to bank on shock value and "we're replacing x with y", none of the backlash would be happening and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. (Hell, I LIKE big ensemble casts.) I would say no-one at Marvel seems to know how to present anything anymore but I'm becoming convinced they are deliberately doing stuff like this as a publicity stunt to set the internet aflame.

I like what they're doing with Old Man Logan now. He is convinced he is in the past of the future world he knows, and is trying to go about killing the people he thinks are responsible for what happens to his family and his world. Except, he keeps running into evidence that this world is not the same past as the one which led to his future.

The thing is, I don't think Marvel announcements usually say "we're replacing x with y". In most cases, they explicitly said the original character isn't leaving. People often get their information from second and third hand sources which sensationalize or outright misrepresent what is actually being said. The Steve Rogers Hydra thing is case-in-point. Not enough people go to the primary source and interpret it critically. This is compounded by a lack of experience with the current state of the comics and most of the characters, leading to often inaccurate assumptions about what they are doing with their stories and universe.

[Ranxerox]

I honestly adore Moon Girl too, her title currently is easily near the top of my read list right now (under Squirrel Girl). That being said, I really kind of hope the two never interact. Someone like Moon Girl I don't want to get involved in super-hero antics as much as I want to see her get the peaceful 'normal' life she wants and deserves. Again, as much as I love her comic I don't really see it having a lasting presence as most of it is 'Weird stuff keeps happening, how do I stop it!"

I mean, for all my complaints of Riri being too young at 15 to be getting into mainstream super-hero antics, Moon Girl is indefinitely more so.

I'm glad to see another Moon Girl fan here, and you might well be right that the character might do better if she doesn't get too into the superhero side of things.

A bit of a disagreement over characterizing the life she wants as "normal" even with quotation marks. The life she wants is an extraordinary one. Despite just being 8 or 9, she has already applied to the Future Foundation and MIT. Now MIT (along with the Future Foundation) turned her down, but given her talent and intelligence, they aren't going keep turning her down forever. By the time Lunella Lafayette is 15, she is basically going to be Riri, or at least that is what would have happened without Inhuman DNA and the pet dinosaur.

Given her potential and her commitment to helping other and stopping injustice, Moon Girl becoming a superhero is pretty much inevitable. Though, I concede, it might be better if that happened latter rather than sooner.

[BiblioRook]

I'm glad to see another Moon Girl fan here, and you might well be right that the character might do better if she doesn't get too into the superhero side of things.

A bit of a disagreement over characterizing the life she wants as "normal" even with quotation marks. The life she wants is an extraordinary one. Despite just being 8 or 9, she has already applied to the Future Foundation and MIT. Now MIT (along with the Future Foundation) turned her down, but given her talent and intelligence, they aren't going keep turning her down forever. By the time Lunella Lafayette is 15, she is basically going to be Riri, or at least that is what would have happened without Inhuman DNA and the pet dinosaur.

Given her potential and her commitment to helping other and stopping injustice, Moon Girl becoming a superhero is pretty much inevitable. Though, I concede, it might be better if that happened latter rather than sooner.

Well yeah, by 'normal' I meant in a 'go to college and pursue science' kind of way as compared to the 'constantly being in danger of being attacked by villeins and wack-jobs', I mean the majority of the series so far was entirely hinged on specifically trying to avoid getting superpowers, knowing she had Inhuman ancestry. Granted though that was more being aware just how much of a crap-shot Inhuman powers, given you were just as likely to develop the ability to foresee the future as you were to suddenly becoming a hideous tree monster. Now that it's over with with her not worst for the wear? Who knows.

[lord_khaine]

And retconning Inhuman slavery and Eugenics to make them more like X-Men.
And failed to realize that they are basically making a group of elitist eugenics gas isolationists (let's not forget inbred) as marginalized minorities.
Let's see Kamala gets to smile at having cloned slave and getting assigned to lower caste (but not at the level as equivalent of Serf) even if she would be decent one.

Are the inhumans still using a caste system though? lots of places have a monachy, but thats not the same.
And as such, there are already a lot of arguments for having informal castes in the western world.

[halcyonforever]

I dont care she is female we need some sexy heroes who can wear and work with inappropriate gear ( aka we need more heroes like emma frost( without the telepath powers ))

Please no.

[t209]

Are the inhumans still using a caste system though? lots of places have a monachy, but thats not the same.
And as such, there are already a lot of arguments for having informal castes in the western world.
Well, I was pointing out on how that trait is bad idea to make Inhumans as mutants in Comics.
I mean they have their own runaway places and sterilizing mutants in "genius" editorial decisions doesn't attract and make fans angry about Marvel more.

[FallenGeek]

Admittedly, I haven't read Iron Man since he joined the Guardians for a spell, but I can only get 67% behind this. Iron Man shouldn't be replaced by a teenager, even a genius one. If this isn't alegacy or a junior partner thing, but an out-and-out-replacement is foolish and reckless for Stark to back her.

[khadgar567]

Please no.
why I bet you like to see victoria secret model super hero with less than emma frost size costume

[Aotrs Commander]

why I bet you like to see victoria secret model super hero with less than emma frost size costume

I'm told that the internet has free porn readily available for that sort of thing, we don't particularly need to encourage it in the comics. It's bad enough Greg Land traces it for his so-called artwork.



On the other hand, I'll bet Ryan Renolds!Deadpool would be more than happy to oblige, because if we're doing it for one gender, then we need to do it for both, so as make everyone equally uncomfortable (or not, if one's preference is not picky...)

[khadgar567]

I'm told that the internet has free porn readily available for that sort of thing, we don't particularly need to encourage it in the comics. It's bad enough Greg Land traces it for his so-called artwork.



On the other hand, I'll bet Ryan Renolds!Deadpool would be more than happy to oblige, because if we're doing it for one gender, then we need to do it for both, so as make everyone equally uncomfortable (or not, if one's preference is not picky...)
nah considering marvel universe similar to ours i think villainy becomes hobby to to much people thing about it just try to rob bank and deadpool with speedo tries to stop you no thanks mate i will pass that opportunity and change my city so I can forget the visual horror and the damn puns

[Chives]

nah considering marvel universe similar to ours i think villainy becomes hobby to to much people thing about it just try to rob bank and deadpool with speedo tries to stop you no thanks mate i will pass that opportunity and change my city so I can forget the visual horror and the damn puns

May I suggest Agent X then? He's like Deadpool, but better looking and fewer puns. and the same setting. He's part of a detective agency with three other people and one of them (Outlaw) has a nicer version of the Emma Frost Confidence thing going on.

[Ramza00]

I dont care she is female we need some sexy heroes who can wear and work with inappropriate gear ( aka we need more heroes like emma frost( without the telepath powers ))

You know that only works with Emma Frost for she is a complete and utter narcissist who loves being the center of attention and people staring at her. She then also loves being an utter ******* to utter people for it fuels her narcissism and her feelings of self importance.

But that stuff ain't healthy and much of the stories about Emma Frost have explored how unhealthy she is and how her mind is completely messed up and it is her that is her source of being miserable.

So no on the skimpy super-heroine costume. I am sorry but as a male I can only tolerate so much of the Emma Frost / Psylocke / Wonder Woman outfits when these outfits seem to go the most extreme with how they show skin, legs and boobage.

[Merellis]

I'm told that the internet has free porn readily available for that sort of thing, we don't particularly need to encourage it in the comics. It's bad enough Greg Land traces it for his so-called artwork.



On the other hand, I'll bet Ryan Renolds!Deadpool would be more than happy to oblige, because if we're doing it for one gender, then we need to do it for both, so as make everyone equally uncomfortable (or not, if one's preference is not picky...)

There's actually a comic about Deadpool and Spidey dancing in their undies and masks for Lady Thor and others on ladies night.

It was amazing.

[Anteros]

There's actually a comic about Deadpool and Spidey dancing in their undies and masks for Lady Thor and others on ladies night.

It was amazing.

The first part of that run was actually really good. It's rare for someone to write Deadpool as actually funny instead of just "lol I'm so random and quirky". The most recent issue was much worse. I'm assuming they changed writers, but I haven't actually checked.

[BiblioRook]

...
Hahahaha

And if people thought Riri was a weird choice to take over as Iron Man. Well it turns out she's not the only one doing so (http://www.dageeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Infamous-Iron-Man-from-CBR-Image-DAGeeks-e1468216665441.jpg).

Yes, Doctor Doom himself is apparently trying out his hands as a hero all of a sudden and he's doing it under Iron Man's name. For all people are going on about Riri I'm honestly surprised that this went silent for as long as it did, personally I find it a much weirder twist.

[The Glyphstone]

Eh, Doom's always danced on the antihero/villain line, and he's almost more deserving of the name than Tony is. Tony just puts on his armor, Doom lives in his armor.

[BiblioRook]

Tony just puts on his armor, Doom lives in his armor.

Apparently ever since Secret Wars not anymore, whatever all went down in that mess seems to have fixed him right up and ever since seems to be trying to go legitimate.

[Aotrs Commander]

Apparently ever since Secret Wars not anymore, whatever all went down in that mess seems to have fixed him right up and ever since seems to be trying to go legitimate.

Riiiight.

So when the X-Men go all power-crazy, they get panalled down hard, but when Doctor fragging Von DOOM fracks up reality and kills long-standing characters (e.g. members of said X-Men), he gets a free pass to start being a hero?

I'm not sure which is dafter, that or the fact anyone could buy DOOM becoming a not-villain for anything other than the short term (he's done thst beofre, it won't last five minutes...) I mean, why downgrade one of the few decent villains that Marv-

-wait. DOOM is an FF character they don't have the movie right for, isn't he?

*sigh*

[BiblioRook]

Actually even more then that, by the looks of things a big conflict between Riri and Doom might be one of the next big upcoming events (http://comicsalliance.com/files/2016/06/DWS.jpg) from Marvel with everyone taking sides over it, as if we haven't just come out of Civil War II. And yes, that's Doom himself in the center on the left.
(So much for keeping Moon Girl out of this sort of thing... but why?)

[TeChameleon]

Actually even more then that, by the looks of things a big conflict between Riri and Doom might be one of the next big upcoming events (http://comicsalliance.com/files/2016/06/DWS.jpg) from Marvel with everyone taking sides over it, as if we haven't just come out of Civil War II. And yes, that's Doom himself in the center on the left.
(So much for keeping Moon Girl out of this sort of thing... but why?)

Gave the promo poster a cursory glance, snickered cynically and went 'gee, I wonder which side we're supposed to root for?'. The young, smiling, 'fun' heroes on one side, and a big gathering of every Marvel hero who's had their sense of humour surgically removed on the other. Hmm.

Then I looked closer and found myself just kind of staring at it blankly. Some Prowler-looking goof on the kids' side (who a brief search revealed to be... Prowler. Go figure...) for whatever reason, and... Dr. Strange? What? And... wait, what? Why is Dr. Strange carrying a battle axe? And what the heck is Mosaic doing there?

And on the other side... Foolkiller? Solo? Uh... okay? Not going too obscure there or anything. And... okay, WTF. Is that a grimdark version of Slapstick of all characters? Seriously, that looks almost as stupid as Penance (er, the Robbie Baldwin version, not the Monet St. Croix/St. Croix twins version). It doesn't quite beat out Penance/Bleedball in the 'okay, what were they smoking, and if I get some too, will this start to make sense?' department, but I'm not sure many things in comics can. Oh, and they have Maria Hill on-side. Surely, their cause is just :smallconfused:

I'll admit that I do like some of the little details in the poster, like the fact that I could swear that Cable is giving Gwenpool the stinkeye, since her gun is even bigger and more ridiculous-looking than his. Or the fact that Miles has to be hanging from the nostril of whoever's giant green foot that is (Fin Fang Foom?) And the bad guys' 'posing' is going to end tragically a split-second after the 'photo' was taken- Gamora's gonna behead Black Panther and Cable, and Foolkiller's going break his knee on the back of Captain Marvel's head, and then rupture his spleen on Jess' head and probably puke all over Maria Hill.

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

so yea now iron doom... I think this is getting weird.

Edit: DC is doing it too. I think I saw this was coming out, but again this youtube guy seems pretty upbeat about it...somehow I missed it at my FLGS this week


https://youtu.be/T-IN-GFrNuI

[The Glyphstone]

Mr Fantastic is retired right now, isn't he? So I can actually see this making sense for Doom (though the Civil War Lite thing is dumb). Doom's one of Marvel's best villains, but he's also one of the least...villainous, I guess. He wants to rule the world, but half the time Latveria is a pretty nice place to live already, and in the alternate future timeline where Doom won, Earth was a benevolent near-utopia. His greatest weakness is his maniacal obsession with being better than Reed Richards, and if Richards is out of the hero business, this is the perfect time for Doom to flex his would-be hero muscles and prove he can be better than Richards at his own game.

At the very least, it makes far more sense than Captain Hydra did. Though I gotta say unarmored Doom looks really bland and boring, more like Norman Osborn than anything I'd imagine as Doctor Doom.

[khadgar567]

watch out for return of chiwawa hulk or some other stupid idea to break that arc

[t209]

watch out for return of chiwawa hulk or some other stupid idea to break that arc
Or Rhodey's ghost in Marville sequel.
Think The Return of Bruce Wayne but without the ingenuity (or madness) of Grand Morrison.

[Ranxerox]

(So much for keeping Moon Girl out of this sort of thing... but why?)

The sad truth is that neither Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur or The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl are on Diamond Comic Distribution list of the top 100 sellers. So probably the hope is that people following the event will pick up the comics, like what they see, and add them to their pull lists.

Also, based on the the title, Divided We Stand, and the fact that they put Squirrel Girl, Riri, Miles Morales, Moon Girl and Ms Marvel all on the same team, I think they are signalling an intention to bifurcate sales line. I think they are going to put half there titles under one editorial umbrella and the other half under another. If this is going to case it makes sense to put Ms Marvel and Moon Girl in the same basket.

On the bright side, if they are handling this like a lot of Civil War II tie ins were handled, Moon Girl's tie in will probably happen in her own book and won't effect the plot of either her title or the event in a big way.

[Knaight]

Eh, Doom's always danced on the antihero/villain line, and he's almost more deserving of the name than Tony is. Tony just puts on his armor, Doom lives in his armor.

He absolutely could have been called Iron Man before the term was in use, and it would have worked fine. Now that Iron Man has been developed, less so.

[Traab]

Riiiight.

So when the X-Men go all power-crazy, they get panalled down hard, but when Doctor fragging Von DOOM fracks up reality and kills long-standing characters (e.g. members of said X-Men), he gets a free pass to start being a hero?

I'm not sure which is dafter, that or the fact anyone could buy DOOM becoming a not-villain for anything other than the short term (he's done thst beofre, it won't last five minutes...) I mean, why downgrade one of the few decent villains that Marv-

-wait. DOOM is an FF character they don't have the movie right for, isn't he?

*sigh*

Meh, its not like we didnt have magneto as a good guy several times in the past right? Didnt he actually LEAD the xmen for awhile? As far as Doom goes, as was said, often times he was only a villain because he was obsessed with beating reed richards and if mr fantastic is the hero then his opponent naturally is the villain. Him choosing to go good could be as simple as saying, "Meh, if reed can be a hero, I can be a better one. And if t'challa can pull off ruling a nation and being a superhero, so can DOOM!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

Frankly, Doom is already a better hero than at least a third of the heroes Marvel fields, definitely including Reed 'How can I screw everything up this time?' Richards.

[Chives]

Frankly, Doom is already a better hero than at least a third of the heroes Marvel fields, definitely including Reed 'How can I screw everything up this time?' Richards.

To be fair, at some point in the recent past Reed went from brilliant scientist and family man to violent scientist that everyone likes having around. He's pretty much his Venture Brothers counterpart at this point.

Doom's always been a more interesting marvel character though, Triumph and Torment is hands down one of the best things (best, imo) Marvel's ever written and even though Doom has... well he's been completely defanged. Still cool though.

[khadgar567]

To be fair, at some point in the recent past Reed went from brilliant scientist and family man to violent scientist that everyone likes having around. He's pretty much his Venture Brothers counterpart at this point.

Doom's always been a more interesting marvel character though, Triumph and Torment is hands down one of the best things (best, imo) Marvel's ever written and even though Doom has... well he's been completely defanged. Still cool though.
plus doom is the first artificer based hero in marvel he can cast and he can invent only problem is his ego

[Chives]

plus doom is the first artificer based hero in marvel he can cast and he can invent only problem is his ego

Even that wasn't a problem at one point thanks to Doom's considerable mental gymnastics. Cheat and trap your opponent into a black hole? Behold the grip of doom! Swarm them with minions? Doom's machinations are innumerable! Frack! He actually considered becoming Strange's apprentice at one point! (That didn't pan out, Latveria had recently been attacked and he stayed there for a while)

Edit: fixed some tenses

[BiblioRook]

Honestly a magically infused Iron Man could turn out really cool.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Been done, in one of the Avengers things with Morgan Le Fay. Tony became the Iron Knight in her service, and tried his absolute best to murderize the rest of the Avengers. IMS, She-Hulk was able to hold him down until the rest of the team squashed the Witch of Camelot.

[Traab]

Wasnt there also an Iron Magus where stark was sorcerer supreme? Might have been an elseworld or some other random spinoff thing.

[endoperez]

You know they already have a black female techie hero, right? Name of Sprocket. And there was another one (or maybe the same one) during the whole alternate world thing post-Onslaught, called Makeshift.

Marvel can't even remember their own history.

I've never heard of these characters. According to a quick search, Sprocket's special thing was that she's a pilot that flies a helicopter (that moves the hero team around). Not exactly a "techie hero" like the inventor slash hero slash self-made-superman like Iron Man.

As for Makeshift - YOU can't remember if she was the same as Sprocket, or a different one. If you're arguing that Marvel can't remember their own history, maybe you should check up on it to be sure that you do.


My thoughts on this are that this is a clear change from Marvel to diversify their lineup, and more specifically, their lineup of recognizable names. Iron Man is perhaps the most well-known of their movie-verse heroes, up there with Spider-Man, Captain America and Thor. Adding diversity on D-listers who aren't well-known and are unlikely to BECOME well-known is inconsequential. If the company really wants to be known as THE source of stories with diverse superheroes, they have to have the representation in the front and center, under the household names. I don't know if they'll succeed, but I think diversity is a good thing so I hope it works out for them.

And for anyone saying Marvel should be making new heroes... if they could make new heroes and instantly make them liked, recognized and able to SELL THE COMICS they're printed on, their sales wouldn't be on the decline. Basically comic book BRANDS are about to be more valuable than comic books themselves. Building on these brands and updating them for the modern movie-going audiences could be one of the most profitable things DC and Marvel can do. If this fails, they can bury it and forget about it. If it succeeds, they probably hope to have a new Iron Man trilogy out in a decade or so, with enough differences in it to not feel like a total rehash. Marvel is trying to diversify, in the hopes of getting new readers from audiences they couldn't reach before. They need to do something like that. I can't say whether this is the strategy that will do it... but they NEED to do something like it.

TL;DR
Diversity is good!
Diversity that only exist in D-listers isn't very diverse.
Comic book movies make brands valuable.
Marvel is updating their brands, which makes perfect sense given the above.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sprocket and Makeshift have the same design, generally the same palette, and fulfill the same support tech roles. The only way to tell if they were the same would be if they'd ever actually mentioned Makeshift's real name. Well, that or not had that hissing fit about women characters swearing, which was Sprocket's trademark.

My point was that Marvel already has a deep bench of minority supporting characters in the C and D ranks. It makes more sense to develop those into mains than to create yet another minority character to banish to the Also Ran tables once you decide to go back and reboot the setting again in a year and a half.

tldr version, the editors are going to kill her or get rid of her, because only the white man named Tony Stark is allowed to be Iron Man.

[endoperez]

tldr version, the editors are going to kill her or get rid of her, because only the white man named Tony Stark is allowed to be Iron Man.

Except Miles Morales is Spider-Man, and Kamala Khan is Ms Marvel. And Amadeus Cho might be Hulk, and Jane Foster might be Thor. I'm not quite sure about the latter two.

It is likely that she will be given a different title. As one jokester on Twitter suggested, we might be witnessing the origin story of a new heroine, the Iron Maiden. :smallcool:

Also, at least marvel.wikia.com shows Makeshift and Sprocket to be two very different characters who co-existed for more than a decade with their different designs.

[BiblioRook]

And Amadeus Cho might be Hulk, and Jane Foster might be Thor. I'm not quite sure about the latter two. Very much so on both counts, or at least last time I checked. Actually even more so because in the cases of Miles Morales and Kamala Khan, Peter Parker and Carol Danvers are still very involved in the Marvel world where in the cases of Thor and the Hulk the originals have ether taken a really big back-seat on things or have disappeared entirely (I honestly haven't read much of any of the Thor titles so maybe Odinson still appears there but he really doesn't seem to be showing up elsewhere, and with Bruce Banner it seems where he went to after losing his powers is currently something of a mystery).


It is likely that she will be given a different title. As one jokester on Twitter suggested, we might be witnessing the origin story of a new heroine, the Iron Maiden. :smallcool:
By the looks of things Riri will be published under the title of 'Invincible Iron Man' where likewise Doom's new adventures as Iron Man will be published under the title 'Infamous Iron Man'. Weather not they actually get called something different in story remains to be seen.

[GloatingSwine]

where in the cases of Thor and the Hulk the originals have ether taken a really big back-seat on things or have disappeared entirely (I honestly haven't read much of any of the Thor titles so maybe Odinson still appears there but he really doesn't seem to be showing up elsewhere, and with Bruce Banner it seems where he went to after losing his powers is currently something of a mystery).

Bruce Banner just got an arrow through the brain courtesy of Hawkeye. This, however, is not likely to be permanent because Hulk is bad at staying dead but may set up something like Joe Fixit coming out to play for a while. Thor Odionson might be getting juiced back up because, as I hear it, Ultimate Thor's hammer made it through into All New Marvel even if Ult. Thor did not, so both Thors may be around for some time.

[BiblioRook]

Bruce Banner just got an arrow through the brain courtesy of Hawkeye. This, however, is not likely to be permanent because Hulk is bad at staying dead but may set up something like Joe Fixit coming out to play for a while. Thor Odionson might be getting juiced back up because, as I hear it, Ultimate Thor's hammer made it through into All New Marvel even if Ult. Thor did not, so both Thors may be around for some time.

Yeah, I did notice the Thor thing in the Marvel NOW previews (http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2016/07/kbcnzuswsnxst7ef9s8j-720x1105.png) but I didn't know how much lead-up was given to that. I even made a whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494561-Genural-Marvel-NOW-ramblings) talking about some of the stuff I found in there that unfortunately no one seemed particularly interested in. Legitimately hearing about Bruce getting shot for the first time. Nothing I've heard about Civil War 2 has made me regret completely skipping it so far...

[Sensei_Guy]

If they wanna make the new iron man a woman? eh fine. although I think women should demand heroes that are more than just 'hand me downs' TBH. I'd like to see more diversity in mainstream media, but how sad is it that all big media companies think that the only way to portray females in anything is to just make the 'girl' version of other heroes?

[TeChameleon]

... funny thing is, I can actually see Tony himself pushing for 'Iron Maiden', seeing as how he (at least as of the MCU) is something of a classic metal fan :smalltongue:

As far as the whole diversity bit goes... *shrug* I'd actually like Riri more if she was a forty-something black woman, rather than Yet Another Teen Hero (YATH).

For one, YATH is... honestly, kinda dull. It's like Marvel is desperately, desperately trying to catch the same lightning-in-a-bottle that struck with classic X-Men, Spider-Man, and whatnot, without any clear idea of how they were successes beyond an awkward formula. For another, I'm not terribly optimistic regarding the quality of YATH... I don't know if the current Marvel staff only has a few writers who can handle teen books or what, but, well... yeah. Thirdly, YATH, regardless of gender or ethnicity, will pretty much inevitably go through the same teen-hero-meatgrinder as every other 'fresh new hero' Marvel has put out in something like the last twenty years.

Be kinda nice if heroes were allowed to be grown-ups for a change. Of course, all that superheroes are good for is a weird puberty/coming-of-age metaphor, apparently, so here we are.

Also, why the hell is Riri being called 'Iron Man'? It might just be me, but making 'man' a non-gendered word seems to be just asking for trouble, linguistically speaking :smallconfused:

[Ravian]

I think the new teen heroes are supposed to add some new blood to Marvel's roster. Peter Parker's been an adult for a while and so are a good deal of the X-men (also don't forget that while the X-men tend to have a bit of rotating roster of new heroes, Marvel's less than enthused about developing their roster further, so they mainly need more young heroes elsewhere.)

Because let us not forget that Marvel wants new readers, and with a PG-13 movie franchise, most of the new readers that can be attracted are going to be teenagers. Teenage heroes are relatable in a way that most of the core Avengers aren't quite.

[BiblioRook]

Because let us not forget that Marvel wants new readers, and with a PG-13 movie franchise, most of the new readers that can be attracted are going to be teenagers. Teenage heroes are relatable in a way that most of the core Avengers aren't quite.

Classic Avengers anyways, the main Avengers team has been almost mostly teen heroes for the last while, although by the looks of things come Marvel NOW that will no longer be the case (http://www.blastr.com/sites/blastr/files/marvel-2.jpg)

[Aotrs Commander]

Also, why the hell is Riri being called 'Iron Man'? It might just be me, but making 'man' a non-gendered word seems to be just asking for trouble, linguistically speaking :smallconfused:

Maybe it turns out she's a long-lost descendant of Numenor and/or the last Dúnadan? (Tolkien did always write LotR from the point that it was the distant past.)

Or she's a huge Tolkien fan?

Either would work...!

...

Actually...

The idea of her her going out and smacking some super-villian while being all "Get back to the void, spawn of evil! You shall trouble us no more! Elendil!" *unibeam blast* and reforging the Armour That Was Broken would be ALL KINDS of cool. Like, I would sign up RIGHT THERE.

[Ravian]

Also, why the hell is Riri being called 'Iron Man'? It might just be me, but making 'man' a non-gendered word seems to be just asking for trouble, linguistically speaking :smallconfused:

Maybe she's trying to keep a secret identity? No one's going to be able to tell in that suit, and voice obscuring software would be trivial to make.

She could even be try what Stark did for years, claim the suit was piloted by an unknown "bodyguard".

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

Maybe she's trying to keep a secret identity? No one's going to be able to tell in that suit, and voice obscuring software would be trivial to make.

She could even be try what Stark did for years, claim the suit was piloted by an unknown "bodyguard".

It's the best secret identity if everyone assumes IronMan is a MAN...

Just like early adventures of spider MAN no one was looking for a kid

[t209]

Maybe it turns out she's a long-lost descendant of Numenor and/or the last Dúnadan? (Tolkien did always write LotR from the point that it was the distant past.)

Or she's a huge Tolkien fan?

Either would work...!

...

Actually...

The idea of her her going out and smacking some super-villian while being all "Get back to the void, spawn of evil! You shall trouble us no more! Elendil!" *unibeam blast* and reforging the Armour That Was Broken would be ALL KINDS of cool. Like, I would sign up RIGHT THERE.
I assume you know about old Germanic word of "man" being unisexual term like Tolkien's basis for prophecy and that word being bolded.

[Chives]

Bruce Banner just got an arrow through the brain courtesy of Hawkeye. This, however, is not likely to be permanent because Hulk is bad at staying dead but may set up something like Joe Fixit coming out to play for a while. Thor Odionson might be getting juiced back up because, as I hear it, Ultimate Thor's hammer made it through into All New Marvel even if Ult. Thor did not, so both Thors may be around for some time.


Ultimate Thor was a fake. His hammer was powered off his belt. Unless they make Scarlet Witch whammy him into the real Thor again I don't see it working.

[Starbuck_II]

But Thor isn't only not Thor because of words. Can't they modify his memory so he forgets that is unworthy so he worthy again?

[Keltest]

But Thor isn't only not Thor because of words. Can't they modify his memory so he forgets that is unworthy so he worthy again?

Unless its some sort of placebo effect, I don't see how that would affect his worthiness?

[Chives]

Unless its some sort of placebo effect, I don't see how that would affect his worthiness?

No no, that's exactly what happened. Old (cigar-chomping) Nick Fury whispered something in Thor's ear and he went plummeting down to the moon.

Did they ever tell the readers what it was? I dropped Thor shortly after that.

[Ravian]

But Thor isn't only not Thor because of words. Can't they modify his memory so he forgets that is unworthy so he worthy again?

This sort of implies that Thor's worthiness is fully a mental thing. This is not necessarily the case, especially in mythology.

Thor does not believe he's worthy of being Thor. Because of that, he is in fact not worthy. But modifying his memory to make him feel worthy again feels like a cheap solution, that likely could backfire.

Imagine, they brainwash Thor so he feels worthy again. He tries to pick up the hammer. He can't pick up the hammer because he hasn't done anything to atone for his feelings of unworthiness, and as such not only can't he pick up the hammer, he also doesn't know why he can't pick up the hammer, so in a way he's in a worse spot than he was before.

If and When Odinsson gets out of this pickle, its going to have to be through some manner of atonement, not just a quick bit of mind control.

[Thrudd]

No no, that's exactly what happened. Old (cigar-chomping) Nick Fury whispered something in Thor's ear and he went plummeting down to the moon.

Did they ever tell the readers what it was? I dropped Thor shortly after that.

No, they never told us what it was Nick Fury said nor why it made Thor unworthy. That bit still bothers me and doesn't make sense. It seems that one's worthiness would not depend on one's knowledge but one's actual state of being. If Thor was actually a clone or otherwise some sort of imposter that was made to believe he was the 'real" Thor, and Fury informed him of that, he would never have been worthy to wield the hammer in the first place. If Fury whispered something about the need for someone else to wield Mjolnir, or that in the future Odinson would fail and lost Mjolnir, then it did not make sense that Thor would sit on the moon lamenting his loss and trying to lift the hammer for days or weeks or months on end. He would have given up the hammer willingly, or at least understood why it dropped from him at that point.

Hopefully the new series will actually explain it, and it will make sense. Maybe he asked Thor something, and Thor's mental decision/response to that information is what made him unworthy. Like he was told that he'd need to share Mjolnir, and he internally said "no way! I'm Thor!", so Mjolnir decided that it couldn't risk Thor being unwilling to lend it to Jane and dropped from his grasp. That would square somewhat with the discovery that Mjolnir, in Jane's hands, seems to have a mind of its own. This is all just speculation, of course. That aspect of Original Sin, along with most of it for me, was unsatisfying.

[Starbuck_II]

No, they never told us what it was Nick Fury said nor why it made Thor unworthy. That bit still bothers me and doesn't make sense. It seems that one's worthiness would not depend on one's knowledge but one's actual state of being. If Thor was actually a clone or otherwise some sort of imposter that was made to believe he was the 'real" Thor, and Fury informed him of that, he would never have been worthy to wield the hammer in the first place. If Fury whispered something about the need for someone else to wield Mjolnir, or that in the future Odinson would fail and lost Mjolnir, then it did not make sense that Thor would sit on the moon lamenting his loss and trying to lift the hammer for days or weeks or months on end. He would have given up the hammer willingly, or at least understood why it dropped from him at that point.

Hopefully the new series will actually explain it, and it will make sense. Maybe he asked Thor something, and Thor's mental decision/response to that information is what made him unworthy. Like he was told that he'd need to share Mjolnir, and he internally said "no way! I'm Thor!", so Mjolnir decided that it couldn't risk Thor being unwilling to lend it to Jane and dropped from his grasp. That would square somewhat with the discovery that Mjolnir, in Jane's hands, seems to have a mind of its own. This is all just speculation, of course. That aspect of Original Sin, along with most of it for me, was unsatisfying.

True, it seems weird that the hammer gained new powers when a human wields it. It also seems to be killing her.
Personally, it seems prideful to not accept cures, but then turn around and accept a hammer that temporally lets you ignore the cancer.


So anyone think it is weird that most of new heroes are female (except Miles).

[BiblioRook]

So anyone think it is weird that most of new heroes are female (except Miles).

Hmm, lets just take a look at the All-New All-Different roster and beyond, just limiting it to the big ones even:

Thor - Jane Foster (Female)
Captain America - Sam Wilson (Male)
Hulk - Amadeus Cho (Male)
Spider-Man - Miles Morales (Male)
Iron Man - Riri Williams/ Victor Von Doom (Female/Male)

Even with the progressive push, seems like men still dominate the hero scene. I guess you could see it evening out a bit more if you add some cases like Hawkeye (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111112130/2976793-1200326-kate1.jpg), Starlord (http://i.imgur.com/wR8snSn.jpg?1), or Wolverine (http://www.comicbookresources.com/imgsrv/imglib/250/0/1/WOLVERINE001-LopezVariant-covcolFIN-0db6c.jpg) but those cases are not very strong or even all that definite (except for X-23 as Wolverine I guess).

[Ravian]

True, it seems weird that the hammer gained new powers when a human wields it. It also seems to be killing her.
Personally, it seems prideful to not accept cures, but then turn around and accept a hammer that temporally lets you ignore the cancer.


So anyone think it is weird that most of new heroes are female (except Miles).

Sam Wilson isn't. Neither is Cho, or the new Nova guy. (can't recall his name right now).

I'd say they've got a good mix of new male characters into the mix.

[t209]

True, it seems weird that the hammer gained new powers when a human wields it. It also seems to be killing her.
Personally, it seems prideful to not accept cures, but then turn around and accept a hammer that temporally lets you ignore the cancer.


So anyone think it is weird that most of new heroes are female (except Miles).
Maybe trying to make Jane Foster as Elric minus not being an evil jerk and soul consuming.

[Chives]

Maybe trying to make Jane Foster as Elric minus not being an evil jerk and soul consuming.

It doesn't make sense to use Jane though. Her whole personality is based around being intelligent, caring, and compassionate. She doesn't fit the descriptions of the new Thor at all.

Maybe it's a body double? Or a shapeshifter of some kind who wanted to walk among the asgardians. There's a few of those in Thor legend.

[Keltest]

It doesn't make sense to use Jane though. Her whole personality is based around being intelligent, caring, and compassionate. She doesn't fit the descriptions of the new Thor at all.

Maybe it's a body double? Or a shapeshifter of some kind who wanted to walk among the asgardians. There's a few of those in Thor legend.

Maybe that's why she was worthy? Because she isn't your traditional meat-headed Viking berserker who sits around anxiously waiting for the next fight? She might get caught up in the excitement when shes out there, but when shes doing her own thing (which is apparently dying of cancer?) it isn't to just look for the next person to smack with her hammer.

[Drascin]

Maybe that's why she was worthy? Because she isn't your traditional meat-headed Viking berserker who sits around anxiously waiting for the next fight? She might get caught up in the excitement when shes out there, but when shes doing her own thing (which is apparently dying of cancer?) it isn't to just look for the next person to smack with her hammer.

The problem is that "meat headed berserker looking for the next thing to hammer in the face" is in fact exactly what Thor is doing right now. Pretty much all the time she's transformed she's actively looking for things to punch in the face, and is being the resident "charge-first-ask-later" guy in the team. So if what Mjolnir was looking for in a wielder was someone who wouldn't just bludgeon through everything, that was kind of a swing and a miss. Jane-Thor is even more impulsive than son-of-Odin-Thor was!