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View Full Version : Should regeneration ever run out, or, can you feed the world on troll meat?



Kami2awa
2016-07-07, 06:51 AM
The title says it all. How many people can you feed off one troll (assuming the meat is edible, or can be made edible)?

And could you actually have a culture based off troll farming? How about an entire ecosystem with trolls as the producers in place of plants?

TheCountAlucard
2016-07-07, 07:25 AM
If the regeneration isn't magical (and it isn't, for a troll), I'd rule that a troll's capacity to regenerate is not infinite; if you chained a troll, kept cutting off bits, and never fed it, eventually its regeneration would slow and then stop. It would be unable to grow back a severed member because there's no "free" biomass to reallocate.

Expecting the rules of the game to act as a complete simulator of the setting's physics leads to sheer absurdity, and as such, I'm inclined to rule against infinite troll-burgers.

Mastikator
2016-07-07, 07:37 AM
I'd treat non-magical regeneration as a form of metabolism, which means a troll that doesn't eat doesn't regenerate and a troll that regenerates gets ravenous quickly.

Joe the Rat
2016-07-07, 08:57 AM
Assuming 3.5...
Regeneration (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics.You could just as easily rule that it is infinite (violating the conservation of matter). Or in any another system (or your own game) rule it to be outright magical. Or trolls exist as a universal constant, like a less appealing Jack Harkness.
But you must be prepared to deal with the world-defining "absurdities" of the consequences (Goblin Dan's BBQ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html), anyone?), or find a way to manage it. Maybe troll flesh has zero nutritive value, and you starve to death with a belly full of meat... or whatever they are made of. Maybe after a few minutes the removed flesh dissolves. Maybe the troll's regeneration is simply teleporting it's damaged and removed pieces back to their proper locations. Maybe regeneration draws in any available biomass, creating a dead zone around the captive creature... and withering its captors from afar when nothing else is left. Maybe regenerative tissue will in time turn its consumers into trolls. Or Trollish regeneration comes from a single source, and your campaign is about staunching the flow of mass before you end up with a Trollpocalypse.

Or maybe it just tastes really nasty.

goto124
2016-07-07, 09:27 AM
The first post sounds funnier if you assume "troll" to mean "internet troll".

Also, obligatory reference to OotS joke about the infinite hydra head restaurant.

Asmodean_
2016-07-07, 10:40 AM
We tried this on a group of half fiends to whom we'd said we'd get lunch.
They were not impressed. Apparently even evil has standards.

Mutazoia
2016-07-07, 10:50 AM
I think this has already been answered...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0326.gif

Fable Wright
2016-07-07, 10:55 AM
In Eberron's Droaam, this is legitimately the only way the Daughters of Sora Kell have found to actually feed a country made of carnivores. Most people don't do this because troll meat is toxic without the secret recipe of herbs and spices, and tastes terrible with them, but hey. It's free food. What do you expect?

ClintACK
2016-07-07, 12:25 PM
Torchwood, Season 2, Episode 4: Meat.

Giant alien whale-equivalent that keeps regenerating. Kept in a warehouse in Wales, where the factory workers keep butchering chunks of it and boiling it in cans for use in the local school lunch program.


Re: Trolls...

If it's magic? Sure. Let it never run out.

If it's biological? No. It's limited by the calories the troll eats. But you could still probably use a troll to turn trash into edible meat -- if you assume troll flesh is edible.

VoxRationis
2016-07-07, 01:41 PM
Ultimately, I'd say that without limitation, your setting will quickly grow to be Discworld-level silliness. Furthermore, the fact that there's no stated limit to regeneration doesn't mean there's no ultimate limit to it; it's just that the limits aren't combat-relevant. Any flesh-and-blood creature's going to run up against limits to its abilities eventually.

Lord Raziere
2016-07-07, 03:26 PM
Yes you can feed people infinitely, but you'd come under fire from regenerators right activists.

I mean think about it: if you enslave all trolls and start using them as infinite food generators, your basically consigning them to a fate worse than death. Basically, they're going to be tortured forever just so that other people can eat them. Meaning your actions quickly become Evil no matter how Evil the trolls are- just killing them to protect people would be a defensible Good action, but tormenting them to forever be eaten piece by piece, in never-ending agony? If you do that, the nine hells below will applaud you with a standing ovation and say "good, your learning from our example!"

so of course you could, but why would you want to?

Slipperychicken
2016-07-07, 04:33 PM
The title says it all. How many people can you feed off one troll (assuming the meat is edible, or can be made edible)?

I'd rule the troll starves to death within a few days of such treatment, unless it eats enough food to make up for the regenerated limbs. It would still be a lot of food, but it wouldn't be infinite. Also, it would be horrible quality meat with very little nutritional value; even if you forcefed it to a dog, he wouldn't be able to keep it down.


My explanation: Trolls eat constantly, and store biomass with seemingly physics-defying density. The massive amounts of stored biomass allow them to regenerate entire limbs off of it. This would also cause them to be far heavier than they look, but I'm okay with that tradeoff.

Fable Wright
2016-07-07, 04:38 PM
Yes you can feed people infinitely, but you'd come under fire from regenerators right activists.

I mean think about it: if you enslave all trolls and start using them as infinite food generators, your basically consigning them to a fate worse than death. Basically, they're going to be tortured forever just so that other people can eat them. Meaning your actions quickly become Evil no matter how Evil the trolls are- just killing them to protect people would be a defensible Good action, but tormenting them to forever be eaten piece by piece, in never-ending agony? If you do that, the nine hells below will applaud you with a standing ovation and say "good, your learning from our example!"

so of course you could, but why would you want to?

Again, using the Eberron example where this scenario is canon:

The Daughters use convicted criminals (who would otherwise be petrified forever), slaves they've purchased, and willing volunteers who choose to suffer for the glory of their country. Additionally, those conscripted only serve 10-20 year terms, as opposed to slavery for the rest of their life or eternity as a statue. The scenario has arguably moved up to Neutral now, and regardless, Evil has different connotations in a country where the 'Evil' deities are worshipped as the ones responsible for creation and protection of most of its inhabitants.

Quertus
2016-07-07, 09:07 PM
The title says it all. How many people can you feed off one troll (assuming the meat is edible, or can be made edible)?

And could you actually have a culture based off troll farming? How about an entire ecosystem with trolls as the producers in place of plants?

Ultimate travel rations: Troll leg in a metal canister.

Yes, infinite food, I've never had a character research how that was possible - the implications of such research are mind-boggling.

I never even considered the cultural or ecosystem implications.

And I always use volunteers. because anyone attacking a group of insanely skilled insanely bling insanely insane PCs is clearly volunteering for whatever mad science ensues.

Thrudd
2016-07-07, 09:23 PM
Whether or not regeneration ever runs out, who is capturing and enslaving all these trolls? They aren't exactly docile. It seems like you'd require a dedicated army of troll hunters who would have a rather high turnover rate. Usually hunting for food doesn't result in a significant number of deaths for the community. Unless we're talking about a small group that happens to consist of a party of high level adventurers, and one single captive troll provides all you need.

Rockphed
2016-07-07, 09:32 PM
Ultimate travel rations: Troll leg in a metal canister.

Yes, infinite food, I've never had a character research how that was possible - the implications of such research are mind-boggling.

I never even considered the cultural or ecosystem implications.

And I always use volunteers. because anyone attacking a group of insanely skilled insanely bling insanely insane PCs is clearly volunteering for whatever mad science ensues.

I had a friend whose world included "cans of troll" as the default adventuring ration. Another friend then chopped off some bits of troll and threw them on the beach. A couple days later there were pigmy trolls running around. I think we fed some to a shark and wondered if the shark would have a troll growing in its stomach.

ClintACK
2016-07-08, 12:35 AM
Yes you can feed people infinitely, but you'd come under fire from regenerators right activists.

I mean think about it: if you enslave all trolls and start using them as infinite food generators, your basically consigning them to a fate worse than death. Basically, they're going to be tortured forever just so that other people can eat them. Meaning your actions quickly become Evil no matter how Evil the trolls are- just killing them to protect people would be a defensible Good action, but tormenting them to forever be eaten piece by piece, in never-ending agony? If you do that, the nine hells below will applaud you with a standing ovation and say "good, your learning from our example!"

so of course you could, but why would you want to?

Interesting that you would assume all that.

How hard would it be to painlessly drop a troll unconscious and carve off pieces, not allowing it to wake up until it was fully healed?

How much would that meat be worth to a society that couldn't (for some reason) produce enough food otherwise? (Imagine a colony on an elemental plane with no farmland or no sunlight.)

Isn't it possible that the trolls are valued members of society who make a living by being magically unconscious for a few hours a week?

:)

Gastronomie
2016-07-08, 01:47 AM
Alignment issues should be kept to the respective tables you're playing in. Troll farming is no different from agriculture.

OT: Lizards can re-grow tails by using up energy resources. As a DM I'll suppose it's the same with trolls, only really, really faster.

Also, I don't think troll meat will be very tasty. I think it'll be like slimy, icky rubber, with the taste of muddy ammonia.

But the idea of near-forever magically regenerating livestock in a high-magic world seems interesting.

Frozen_Feet
2016-07-08, 02:22 AM
It depends on type and style of regeneration.

Physical regenerators eventually run out of energy, falling inert and stopping producing material untill placed in a nutrient-rich environment. Such as, say, another creature's body. I.e. Eat trolls at your own risk.

Metaphysical regenerators have no ontological inertia. Sure, you can hack off as many parts as you like, but separate from the Will that maintains them, such pieces disappear.

goto124
2016-07-08, 03:12 AM
If you still have to feed the troll (pun not intended), why not eat the food you were about to give the troll? Energy (in)efficiency and all that.

Maybe the troll can eat food you can't eat?

Madbox
2016-07-08, 05:00 AM
I had a friend whose world included "cans of troll" as the default adventuring ration. Another friend then chopped off some bits of troll and threw them on the beach. A couple days later there were pigmy trolls running around. I think we fed some to a shark and wondered if the shark would have a troll growing in its stomach.

Well, acid stops the regeneration, right? I mean, stomach acid doesn't compare to D&D acid. You wouldn't do a single hit point of damage by puking on someone. But stomach acid is actually pretty powerful as far as acids go IRL (as someone with chronic heartburn, I know this quite well). I'd say the stomach acid from a shark would probably prevent regeneration, although it might not actually be able to break down what was already there.

Mutazoia
2016-07-08, 05:58 AM
Well, acid stops the regeneration, right? I mean, stomach acid doesn't compare to D&D acid. You wouldn't do a single hit point of damage by puking on someone. But stomach acid is actually pretty powerful as far as acids go IRL (as someone with chronic heartburn, I know this quite well). I'd say the stomach acid from a shark would probably prevent regeneration, although it might not actually be able to break down what was already there.

Stomach acid is diluted by other substances when you puke, and your stomach lining is coated with a naturally produced chemical that protects it from stomach acid. If you could pour pure stomach acid on some one, it would indeed burn them. Acid is measured in pH levels with 0 being the most acidic....stomach acid is rated between 1 - 3 pH, making it just as strong as Battery acid.

So...basically, yes. Eating troll meat, your stomach acid would be more than enough to cancel out the trolls regeneration.

hamishspence
2016-07-08, 06:04 AM
Stomach acid is diluted by other substances when you puke, and your stomach lining is coated with a naturally produced chemical that protects it from stomach acid. If you could pour pure stomach acid on some one, it would indeed burn them. Acid is measured in pH levels with 0 being the most acidic....stomach acid is rated between 1 - 3 pH, making it just as strong as Battery acid.

So...basically, yes. Eating troll meat, your stomach acid would be more than enough to cancel out the trolls regeneration.

A Warhammer character who's stomach acid only just cancels out troll regeneration:

http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grom_the_Paunch

Madbox
2016-07-08, 12:01 PM
Stomach acid is diluted by other substances when you puke, and your stomach lining is coated with a naturally produced chemical that protects it from stomach acid. If you could pour pure stomach acid on some one, it would indeed burn them. Acid is measured in pH levels with 0 being the most acidic....stomach acid is rated between 1 - 3 pH, making it just as strong as Battery acid.

So...basically, yes. Eating troll meat, your stomach acid would be more than enough to cancel out the trolls regeneration.

I'm... not sure why you're arguing with me here. I said I thought that it would be enough to stop regeneration.

I said it was weak compared to magic D&D acid. Which it is. A 2 pH causes blistering at worst on your skin. Below that it can do nasty things, but only in fairly large quantities, which living creatures do not normally produce on a daily basis.

So, let's consider the average commoner. Going by 5e rules, they have 1d8 hp. By 3e rules, they have 1d4 hp. So, anything that deals a single hp of damage would probably be something that would put me in the hospital. For example, a dagger does 1d4 damage on hit. If I got stabbed at all, yeah, I'd probably need stitches and be forced to see a doctor.

So let's do a quick comparison. Stomach acid, concentrated, could
1. Do nothing, potentially, if splashed on me.
2. Cause a nasty rash and blistering, which I wouldn't need to see a doctor about.
3. Hit me in the eyes (CRITICAL HIT!), and actually put me in the hospital.

Now compare that to Melf's Acid Arrow, doing multiple d4 of damage. If it hit me IRL, the possibilities are
1. Get burned badly enough to compare to multiple stab wounds, requiring medical attention
2. Die immediately.

So, I stand by my statement that stomach acid does not compare to magic D&D acid.

ellindsey
2016-07-08, 12:21 PM
If you're worried about the troll running out of energy, make it wear a Ring of Sustenance.

You might ask, if you have a Ring of Sustenance, why are you bothering with a troll? A Ring of Sustenance will keep one person fed, but an infinitely regenerating troll can feed many people.

Segev
2016-07-08, 01:16 PM
In an Exalted game I once played a Casteless Lunar. Casteless Lunars have a limited number of benefits over Lunars with a Caste, but a significant set of drawbacks. One of those is a propensity to madness if they do certain things.

Mine got afflicted with a derangement: cannibalism. His morals didn't change, and since he was already a bit of a self-sacrificing hero-type, he certainly didn't want to eat other people. Add in that Lunars are more able to regenerate than trolls, and he just started sating that craving by literally pulling his abdominal muscles and eating them like apples. I wasn't trying to squick out the ST, though I knew it was squicky. Still, I think the ST regretted my sweet little Lunar kid developing that derangement more than I did. I think his plan was for there to be some moral dissonance, some struggle with ethics fighting with a craving...and the Lunar just found a solution that didn't hurt anybody but himself. And even that was limited.

And it wasn't like he could ONLY eat people. Just that he craved it.

zeek0
2016-07-09, 01:48 AM
Per Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (the best/only fanfic I've read...thrice), trolls constantly transfigure (transmute) into themselves.

That means that, while attached to the body, it is troll flesh. When it is not attached to the body, it eventually transmutes back into the source material (rocks, air, damaged flesh, whatever).

So if you eat troll meat, it gets absorbed into your blood stream, then transmutes back into rocks...

I don't know what kind of damage you take for your blood suddenly transfiguring into rocks, but it can't be good.

ClintACK
2016-07-09, 02:38 AM
Per Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (the best/only fanfic I've read...thrice), trolls constantly transfigure (transmute) into themselves...

By far the best fanfic of anything that I've ever read.

But if you liked that... and like D&D enough to hang out here... you have to read "Harry Potter and the Natural 20".

The premise is that the Death Eaters conjure up a D&D3.5 wizard (and not just any wizard, but one created by an extreme munchkin of a player) -- with all of the Vancian silliness and a rules-lawyer sense of how the D&D world works, magic and otherwise. It's told from that character's point of view as he tries to understand both our world (People care what food tastes like? Why? There are no rules about it.) and that of Harry Potter. (How sensible to have a school with dangerous random encounters in the halls -- how else would the students manage to learn magic (level up) when they appear to be doing nothing but studying!) It isn't nearly as great as Methods of Rationality, but it's still a lot of fun -- like a combination of Harry Potter Fanfiction and one of the Stupidest D&D Rules threads from here.

zeek0
2016-07-09, 08:32 AM
MoR is serious, and that sounds like it isn't. Could be fun; I'll check it out.