new Druid cantrip

[jleonardwv]

Overpowered?

Summon Beast
Conjuration cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V,S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You summon one beast of CR 1/8 or CR 0 that arrives in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The beast arrives within one round and will be of a type appropriate for the natural environment. You may use a bonus action to command the beast, who follows your commands to the best of its ability. If you fall unconscious or are incapacitated, the beast goes back to the natural environment.
The spell can summon more a powerful beast when you reach higher levels: up to CR 1/4 at 5th level, up to CR 1/2 at 11th level, up to CR 1 at 17th level.

[SharkForce]

yes. it's overpowered.

[eastmabl]

There's a reason why summon spells don't show up until the 3rd spell level - it borks the Action Economy. This tries to adhere to the action economy, but you've still got a pretty solid second attack each round.

I would suggest that you don't try to fix this, unless it's the equivalent of "1 minute of ranger animal companion."

[jleonardwv]

How about one minute casting time and requires an action to command?

[R.Shackleford]

Will we eventually see a cantrip or 1st level summon spell?

Yes.

I have no doubt in my mind that WotC won't be able to resist making such a thing. Especially since they tend to outsource their works.

The specific one you made? Probabaly not, but similar.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, overpowered. Consider a tome warlock. Scaling damage from eldritch blast as damage, this scaling as a bonus action. Given any class can get a druid cantrip with a feat it is too good.

Using an action to control is still awesome but at least some people may chose not to have it. Finding a way to make it dependant on wisdom would also mean it had more of a cost to using it.

[Dalebert]

How about one minute casting time and requires an action to command?

Takes a minute to cast and lasts a minute? Maybe the key here is finding a way to benefit in non-combat ways somehow. *shrug*

[dev6500]

Seems fine to me. The fact that it uses concentration and requires bonus actions to command already seems to bring it in line with comparable abilities.

At lvl 1, it gets you a creature with roughly 10-15 hp and 1 attack that does roughly 5 damage. So most bonus action abilities seem to be comparable. PAM is better or equal, twf is equal and so is monk bonus action attack.

It theoretically gives you a meat shield except it is more likely to motivate enemies to attack you to disrupt your concentration through damage or unconsciousness.

So, damage is on par and it doesn't really provide a meat shield. At later levels, you are likely to have other uses for your concentration so it only gets comparatively weaker.

[MrStabby]

Well there is always the help action if the damage isn't enough for you.

[dev6500]

Well there is always the help action if the damage isn't enough for you.

Help action, which familiars can also arguably do without using your bonus action or concentration.

Getting advantage on attacks can easily be accomplished by proning an enemy which can also be done in a myriad of ways. Shield master shoving can give multiple players advantage on all their attacks. Help action will give only you advantage on 1 attack.

It is nice but like I said, is comparable to other abilities that players already have access to. As a druid cantrip, you either have to be a full druid, dip druid, go tome warlock or lore bard or get magic initiate in order to get the ability. For tome warlock and lore bard, you get the ability later which reduces the impact of getting the cantrip since it scales more slowly than other abilities and will increasing have to compete with higher level concentration spells.

So I give it a stamp of approval.

[MrStabby]

So if learning a cantrip is comparable to half a feat, it may be a bit good. If it gives you more options on how to use it it is even better. Even if you can't see it's combat applications you must be able to see it's other functions. It's not quite arcane eye, but a bat scout is close.

As to familliars helping, isn't that only chainlock familliars?

[DracoKnight]

So if learning a cantrip is comparable to half a feat, it may be a bit good. If it gives you more options on how to use it it is even better. Even if you can't see it's combat applications you must be able to see it's other functions. It's not quite arcane eye, but a bat scout is close.

As to familliars helping, isn't that only chainlock familliars?

Bats are also a familiar option.

And, no, any familiar can take the Help action, only Chainlock familiars can take the Attack action.

[Joe the Rat]

So you summon a creature which can (among other things) be used to attack as a bonus action, at range from your location.

Spiritual Weapon is a 2nd level spell with the same bonus action effect, with more reliable source of damage, but slower moving and of far less utility (carrying items, help actions, someone else dropping a beast sense on the conjure, for example)

The closer you get to "Spiritual Weapon Beast," the more it needs to be a spell rather than a cantrip.

[dev6500]

So if learning a cantrip is comparable to half a feat, it may be a bit good. If it gives you more options on how to use it it is even better. Even if you can't see it's combat applications you must be able to see it's other functions. It's not quite arcane eye, but a bat scout is close.


Except in the scenario of a pure druid, getting this cantrip will require dipping druid, tome warlock, or lore bard or taking a feat. So except in the scenario of pure druid, its power is roughly equal to half a feat but may cost a feat or a larger class level investment to get which is in my book is a larger investment than a feat. Not too bad.

For a druid, its a bit better but it uses up one of your 2 cantrips known at level 1. So you end up sacrificing mold earth, shillelagh or another strong cantrip to get the option. I personally would feel hard pressed to decide to sacrifice mold earth for this cantrip since 10 ft pit traps deal d6 damage, do not require concentration, effectively control enemies, and do not die. Also it works really well with thorn whip and spike growth.

Not sure it makes for a good scout because I am unsure how you effectively communicate with it without telepathy or some speak with animals like ability(an additional cost). So it likely will not be able to relate to you any useful information. Also it lasts a minute so how far can it really scout ahead. Does it count as scouting ahead if you are 200 feet away from the enemy?



So you summon a creature which can (among other things) be used to attack as a bonus action, at range from your location.

Spiritual Weapon is a 2nd level spell with the same bonus action effect, with more reliable source of damage, but slower moving and of far less utility (carrying items, help actions, someone else dropping a beast sense on the conjure, for example)

The closer you get to "Spiritual Weapon Beast," the more it needs to be a spell rather than a cantrip.

I agree that they are close in power but spiritual weapon cannot be killed and doesn't require concentration.

[MrStabby]

And, no, any familiar can take the Help action, only Chainlock familiars can take the Attack action.

I am away from book at the moment but I thought that anyone could only help with an action they could take - so you can only help pick locks if you can use lockpick tools and you can only help an attack action if you can take an attack action. I can't quote pages at the moment though.


Except in the scenario of a pure druid, getting this cantrip will require dipping druid, tome warlock, or lore bard or taking a feat. So except in the scenario of pure druid, its power is roughly equal to half a feat but may cost a feat or a larger class level investment to get which is in my book is a larger investment than a feat. Not too bad.

For a druid, its a bit better but it uses up one of your 2 cantrips known at level 1. So you end up sacrificing mold earth, shillelagh or another strong cantrip to get the option. I personally would feel hard pressed to decide to sacrifice mold earth for this cantrip since 10 ft pit traps deal d6 damage, do not require concentration, effectively control enemies, and do not die. Also it works really well with thorn whip and spike growth.

Not sure it makes for a good scout because I am unsure how you effectively communicate with it without telepathy or some speak with animals like ability(an additional cost). So it likely will not be able to relate to you any useful information. Also it lasts a minute so how far can it really scout ahead. Does it count as scouting ahead if you are 200 feet away from the enemy?




I agree that they are close in power but spiritual weapon cannot be killed and doesn't require concentration.

Yeah, the scout point and lack of telepathy is a good point - I hadn't appreciated that limitation (still maybe good for a tomelock who can take speaking with beasts at will as another invocation).

On ways to get the spell, you missed out Nature Cleric. Not a big deal but worth it for the sake of completeness.

As for the comparison with spiritual weapon, I agree its a pretty good comparison - probably not at the 1-5 level though. And to not being killed? Well if the enemy was to waste time attacking my cantrip I would consider it a reasonable trade off. Cantrip does need concentration though.

[Rysto]

For a druid, its a bit better but it uses up one of your 2 cantrips known at level 1. So you end up sacrificing mold earth, shillelagh or another strong cantrip to get the option

Is shillelagh actually a strong cantrip for a Druid? Unless they get Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade, its damage never scales.

[Hrugner]

This would probably work if you had no control over the creature. You just call a nearby cr appropriate creature and it shows up by natural means. It could be a meaningful distraction in combat, or be used to find animals to train, but wouldn't do much to the action economy and may prove detrimental if used recklessly.

[R.Shackleford]

I am away from book at the moment but I thought that anyone could only help with an action they could take - so you can only help pick locks if you can use lockpick tools and you can only help an attack action if you can take an attack action. I can't quote pages at the moment though.



Yeah, the scout point and lack of telepathy is a good point - I hadn't appreciated that limitation (still maybe good for a tomelock who can take speaking with beasts at will as another invocation).

On ways to get the spell, you missed out Nature Cleric. Not a big deal but worth it for the sake of completeness.

As for the comparison with spiritual weapon, I agree its a pretty good comparison - probably not at the 1-5 level though. And to not being killed? Well if the enemy was to waste time attacking my cantrip I would consider it a reasonable trade off. Cantrip does need concentration though.

Nope, in battle, for helping an ally attack, there is no stipulation

[SharkForce]

Nope, in battle, for helping an ally attack, there is no stipulation

it's a general stipulation. in order to help an action, you must be able to perform that action.

the question is whether a familiar counts as being able to attack or not; a regular creature of the familiar's type generally could attack, but a familiar can't. kinda muddies the waters to say the least.

[R.Shackleford]

it's a general stipulation. in order to help an action, you must be able to perform that action.

the question is whether a familiar counts as being able to attack or not; a regular creature of the familiar's type generally could attack, but a familiar can't. kinda muddies the waters to say the least.


Combat

"Help

You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn.

Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."

From the SRD

Even if there is a general rule for it, this is the specific combat rule for helping.

Using the help action doesn't have to be about attacking, you can just be making a distraction which is not an attack action.

[bloodshed343]

If you want it to be balanced:

Summon Spirit Beast
Conjuration cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V,S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You summon one spirit beast that arrives in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The beast arrives within one round and will be of a type appropriate for the natural environment. You may use a bonus action to command the beast, who follows your commands to the best of its ability. If you fall unconscious or are incapacitated, the beast disappears. The beast has a movement speed of 20 feet. The beast has an attack, which uses your spell attack modifier and deals 1d6 damage on a successful hit. The beast can also take the help action.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say slow the scaling a step-- CR 0 at first level, CR 1/8 at fifth level, and so on.

[jas61292]

Personally, I'd just get rid of the scaling altogether. Summoning would be an interesting cantrip, but anything weak enough to be summoned by a cantrip is probably not good enough for combat. So rather than try and adapt it to combat as you level, and treating it as a damaging cantrip, I say just treat it as a non-combat cantrip, make it CR 0 only, and maybe even eliminate the ability to attack, like a familiar. In exchange, I might make it like Minor Illusion and say that it doesn't take concentration, but you can only have one at any given time.

[Gastronomie]

Personally, I'd just get rid of the scaling altogether. Summoning would be an interesting cantrip, but anything weak enough to be summoned by a cantrip is probably not good enough for combat. So rather than try and adapt it to combat as you level, and treating it as a damaging cantrip, I say just treat it as a non-combat cantrip, make it CR 0 only, and maybe even eliminate the ability to attack, like a familiar. In exchange, I might make it like Minor Illusion and say that it doesn't take concentration, but you can only have one at any given time.Except it'll be better than Find Familiar in how it's a cantrip and doesn't cost money…

TBH "adding Find Familiar to the druid spell list" seems like the best way to go.

[TheFlyingCleric]

it's a general stipulation. in order to help an action, you must be able to perform that action.

the question is whether a familiar counts as being able to attack or not; a regular creature of the familiar's type generally could attack, but a familiar can't. kinda muddies the waters to say the least.

There are whole threads discussing this topic.

That 'general stipulation' is stated in the section on skill checks headed "Working together" (SRD: p.79), and only applies to skill checks. It's connection to the Help action is that it requires you to take the Help action if you are in combat. The first part of the Help action (SRD: p.93) is what allows this.

The description of the Help action itself does not state any such stipulation. It also makes it clear that you don't need to be able to attack to Help an ally with their attack; there are plenty of ways to 'distract the target' without a weapon.

If I were going to give the Druid a cantrip to summon a critter, I would make it a fluff cantrip; All it would do is summon a harmless creature (preferably fluffy), with little use in combat (can't attack, can't take Help action on attacks, etc). But with uses outside of combat, like if you need something to distract an evil cat. Or circumstantial situations in combat e.g. when the cat is trying to murder you.

[Vogonjeltz]

Overpowered?

Find Familiar is a 1st level spell that requires an hour to cast, and the end result can't attack.

Yeah, it's overpowered.

[jas61292]

Except it'll be better than Find Familiar in how it's a cantrip and doesn't cost money…

TBH "adding Find Familiar to the druid spell list" seems like the best way to go.

Not really, due to duration. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to imply, familiars are mostly worthless in combat if your DM is halfway competent. No one is going to ignore the thing that is giving their opponents huge advantages, when they have a great chance of killing it by throwing a rock at it. Yeah, it might cost them one action to kill it, but unlike a familiar, it also costs you one action in combat to get it.

No, the real advantage of a familiar is out of combat, especially with scouting. And good luck doing that kinda stuff with a creature that, not only doesn't have any sort of mental bond with you, or other special ability, but also only lasts for one minute.

[DracoKnight]

Not really, due to duration. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to imply, familiars are mostly worthless in combat if your DM is halfway competent. No one is going to ignore the thing that is giving their opponents huge advantages, when they have a great chance of killing it by throwing a rock at it. Yeah, it might cost them one action to kill it, but unlike a familiar, it also costs you one action in combat to get it.

No, the real advantage of a familiar is out of combat, especially with scouting. And good luck doing that kinda stuff with a creature that, not only doesn't have any sort of mental bond with you, or other special ability, but also only lasts for one minute.

I agree 100% with this.

[R.Shackleford]

Not really, due to duration. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to imply, familiars are mostly worthless in combat if your DM is halfway competent. No one is going to ignore the thing that is giving their opponents huge advantages, when they have a great chance of killing it by throwing a rock at it. Yeah, it might cost them one action to kill it, but unlike a familiar, it also costs you one action in combat to get it.

No, the real advantage of a familiar is out of combat, especially with scouting. And good luck doing that kinda stuff with a creature that, not only doesn't have any sort of mental bond with you, or other special ability, but also only lasts for one minute.

If an enemy is attacking your familiar then not only did it give some advantage but it took away that creature's turn.

That is like a free casting of a level 2 spell because find familiar is a ritual.

So for most of the day it is a scout or just a fun little friend. In battle it starts helping and then an enemy attacks it. That attack wasted that enemies turn.

However with the owl you have a 60' movement and Flyby... So moving in and getting out of harms way (safely behind the cleric) isn't that hard.


I do agree, taking out the familiar is easy, but that's exactly what you want if you are a wizard.

[jas61292]

If an enemy is attacking your familiar then not only did it give some advantage but it took away that creature's turn.

That is like a free casting of a level 2 spell because find familiar is a ritual.

So for most of the day it is a scout or just a fun little friend. In battle it starts helping and then an enemy attacks it. That attack wasted that enemies turn.

However with the owl you have a 60' movement and Flyby... So moving in and getting out of harms way (safely behind the cleric) isn't that hard.


I do agree, taking out the familiar is easy, but that's exactly what you want if you are a wizard.

It took away their action. Not their full turn. For a familiar, that is not a bad trade-off, but for this hypothetical cantrip, you are trading your action for theirs. How effective that is depends on the situation. Action economy wise, if you outnumber your opponents, it is a good trade-off. If you are outnumbered, it is a waste.

And even for the owl everyone loves to cite, taking care of it is easy. A commoner (+0 ability score) throwing a rock (no proficiency) at long range (disadvantage), still kills it 25% of the time. Anyone actually trained in a decent ranged attack easily kills it without any effort.

Now, all that said, I do think there is an issue with it is the ability for someone to summon a new creature every round if it is killed. Against a creature that is outnumbered, this becomes a fantastic strategy. Longer casting time would help mitigate this, but then you also need to increase the duration or else it would probably be worthless. And then it starts infringing on the scouting uses of a familiar.

Thinking about it further, I think really what you would need to do to make this balanced would be to try and neuter any and all combat use whatsoever, and the easiest way to do so is not by making it unable to attack, but by making it use your own actions to do anything. If you say that it doesn't take any actions unless you use your own action to command it, it would put it more in line with utility cantrips like prestidigitation or whatnot. I mean, sure, if you want to give up your own action to have your summoned badger attack at +2 for a potential 1 damage, or use your action to make your owl essentially let you use the Help action but from range, and in either case on on your second turn since your action the first turn is casting the spell, then go ahead. But that is not why you would take the spell.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Totally and utterly borked, as before.

At level 17, black bear on demand? Yeah.

Just plain wrong. But you don't *need* our consent, agreement or approval!

Heck, *start* with the black bear!

Anyway,

Ken