Age of Sigmar: Points and Handbooks

[Requizen]

So I saw there wasn't an AoS thread. I know a lot of WHFB players are... let's say unhappy with AoS, but GW seems to have put a lot of effort into making it a bit more of a reasonable game now with the General's Handbook. Frontline Gaming has also been talking about how much they enjoy it and are starting a new podcast to coincide with the Handbook release and the leagues that are popping up. I was feeling pretty interested in starting a Seraphon army, and I realized there was nowhere on the board to discuss it.

Has anyone been playing? How are you feeling about the Points? What is your meta like?

General Discussion Thread!

[Tehnar]

I really don't care how well balanced the points are, and the army composition. The 4 page of base rules that exist are a bad joke, a affront to any sort of game design. It "might" get better after several editions, but that is a long way away.

Biggest issues with the base rules are:

Who goes first in a given turn depends on the dice, so instead of IGOUGO, a player can act twice in a row, while the others dudes can't do anything.
Archers shooting from close combat.

[Requizen]

I really don't care how well balanced the points are, and the army composition. The 4 page of base rules that exist are a bad joke, a affront to any sort of game design. It "might" get better after several editions, but that is a long way away.

Biggest issues with the base rules are:

Who goes first in a given turn depends on the dice, so instead of IGOUGO, a player can act twice in a row, while the others dudes can't do anything.
Archers shooting from close combat.


I wonder how the former is addressed at current tournaments, or if it's just considered an aspect of the game.

I dunno, I've only given the rules a run through and haven't played any games yet. I think the turn order is sort of interesting - it forces you to play a little more cautiously in the event that your opponent gets a double turn, and changes tactics a bit.

Of course, you can always just agree with your opponent to always use the same order as the first round, but then it really pushes small armies or armies with heavy reserves/summoning.

[LCP]

I dunno, I've only given the rules a run through and haven't played any games yet. I think the turn order is sort of interesting - it forces you to play a little more cautiously in the event that your opponent gets a double turn, and changes tactics a bit.

Of course, you can always just agree with your opponent to always use the same order as the first round, but then it really pushes small armies or armies with heavy reserves/summoning.

Extra randomness encouraging caution/bet-hedging isn't exactly deep tactics though. And considering how stripped-down AoS's core rules are, in a lot of cases you will have very little input in how badly a double turn allows your opponent to stomp you. If a ranged unit can see you and you are in range, it can do its full damage output to you regardless of distance, cover, being in combat, or any other such factors that might introduce some tactics; the only thing on your side that matters is the saving throw of the unit on the receiving end. Combat is largely the same; your opponent does at least have to find a route to walk up to you before they can clobber you, but the movement rules are so quick and simple that it's trivial to go from the starting line to being in melee in two turns (or even one).

Even with GW now providing points values, if you want to play AoS as a competitive game you have to houserule away several of the core rules - e.g. "measure from the model", which if played as written means that any model that isn't a perfect sphere ends up doing the MC Hammer slide around the battlefield, and that some models on flying bases can't attack or be attacked by most other models in the game (in fact even many models on foot will require you to overlap their bases to get within weapon reach of each other). It's a fundamentally half-arsed and broken rule set, and that's before you even mention the infamous joke rules that require you to do things like compare beards.

If you're coming from 40K and looking for something fresh and interesting I can see the appeal but I would definitely recommend looking into any of the other games on the market (e.g. Malifaux, Warmahordes etc.) before touching the still-burning trainwreck of Age of Sigmar.

[Cheesegear]

Our meta immediately made the following changes;

No Triumphs. It's actually fairly easy to not even be able to make it to a points limit. Models are bought in blocks, and not individually, so that makes it hard to get exact points values, and all wargear is free, which means you can't 'hedge' your points with extra Melta Bombs and stuff. We found that we were routinely 40 or 60, sometimes 80 Points under what we'd agreed on, with no way to make up the points (we could, if we had different models). But, it soon turned into an arms race on how we could not spend 40 or 60, sometimes 80 Points, specifically in order to get the bonus. Basically, we told people to stop what they were doing, because no Triumphs.

No Mysterious Terrain. It's dumb.

No Initiative. It's dumb. If you have an explosive army, and you have the second and following third turns in a row...Boom city. Whoever goes first, goes first. "I go, you go."

Stuff I learned like, immediately...

You can shoot into combat, and you can shoot while in combat, and not even at the unit you're in combat with. With a good unit that rolls To Wound with a Rend or two, this is immensely strong. Especially 'cause you can also shoot at the unit you're in combat with, essentially giving you two phases of attacks.

The Order Battle Trait is fairly bad compared to the others. Dwarfs (Dispossessed, not Fyreslayers) rarely take Battleshock tests, having a whole bunch of items that mitigate it, and Seraphon are all Bravery 10 (even the Skinks!), which means Battleshock against Seraphon basically never even happens. Making that particular Trait fairly pointless...At least for Dwarfs and Seraphon. I'm sure there's one or two Order lists that actually care about Battleshock. But not the ones I played with/saw.

Ogres are stupid strong. Fortunately, in a few of the missions, you need five or more models on the Objective to score, and Ogres come in minimum units of three. lol. It was fun watching the Ogre player realise that he couldn't Score without holding back two units per Objective...Then he decided to table me...Which he then proceeded to do. Ogres are stupid strong... Although it's equally possible that I just had a bad army, and his was amazing.

Games automatically end on Turn 5. No more endless games! Yay!
Games have Objectives now. No more "Let's just kill each other." Yay!
Each army can only cast each spell, once. Instead of once per Wizard. Yay!
You have to pay for Summoned units. No more sitting in the back corner endlessly Summoning units. Yay! (I wonder if 40K will follow suit?)

Units in Formations still count towards your Force Org limit. If I take three Cannons as part of my Dispossessed Artillery Battery, that means I've still taken three Artillery choices, and is illegal to do under 1000 Points (which is a good thing). But, yeah. Coming from 40K, that was...Different. You can't just have a Formation if it doesn't abide by the slots set out by the points. I know the Dark Elf Formation gives you 1<6 Dragons, take doesn't mean you can just take 6 Dragons, because that's 6 Behemoths and 6 Leaders straight off the bat. Anyway, it was a... Change.


Sigmar isn't perfect. No Mysterious Terrain and No Triumphs feel like it should be a normal thing. But, I have a feeling 'No Initiative' might be a meta-centric thing, and could be very divisive in the player base. Whatever. The biggest...Accolade (?) I can give it, is that I no longer reject the game out of hand. If I see that a meta/tournament is using Initiative, I know how I could build around my opponent - or myself - having two turns in a row at least once in a game. If a meta/tournament doesn't use Initiative, I can build a list knowing that neither my opponent - nor myself - will ever get two turns in a row.

[Requizen]

I'm flipping through the General's Handbook right now (or what I have of it) and I'm fairly certain I'll be starting either Seraphon or Stormcast Eternals soon.

Honestly, I like the simplified rules. It's stark contrast to the bloat of 40k and I really like the models. Maybe I'm a sucker for GW plastic, but that's a huge part of the hobby for me and I like their models the most out of any minis game I look at. Probably won't suddenly turn into an AoS tourney player, but some other people around me have expressed interest so maybe getting a small league together or narrative campaign going would be cool.

[Cheesegear]

I'm flipping through the General's Handbook right now (or what I have of it) and I'm fairly certain I'll be starting either Seraphon or Stormcast Eternals soon.

I can't speak for the Eternals, but Seraphon are pretty good.

As I mentioned, everything they own has Bravery 10, so your opponent has to kill five models per turn before you even remotely give a crap about Battleshock. From the games I played, Battleshock was the biggest killer. At the end of turn, lose two dudes, lose one dude, lose three dudes. I realised what was happening real fast. In my second game over the weekend, I reworked my list to basically never take Battleshock, giving myself re-rolls, only losing half models, not taking them at all, etc. and Dispossessed can do that, they have certain characters and items to mitigate Battleshock.

Meanwhile, the Seraphon player at the next table, was pretending to play Space Marines and being like "What even is Battleshock?" and playing hilarious games of attrition with his opponent. Like I said, the lizards angels have to lose five models before they even need to roll. On their return, they kill three models, and then their opponents lose another two to Battleshock.

Also; Chameleon Skinks can go die in a fire.

Going forwards, I think one of the major shapers of the meta is how each army reacts to Battleshock. Personally, when I stopped taking Battleshock tests, I stopped losing. I was playing Dispossessed. Kind of like how two of the best rules in 40K are Fearless and ATSKNF.


It's stark contrast to the bloat of 40k and I really like the models.

The Allies system in AoS is insane. Take anything you want, as long as it's from the same Faction (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction). I don't recall if there were any negatives to bringing models from different Factions, save that you simply would lose bonuses. The potential for bloat is crazy. Fortunately, since 'everyone' hates AoS, there aren't going to be a whole lot of net-lists running around, which means everyone will have to figure it out for themselves.
(Although I do recall the infamous Skaven/Tzeentch combo where if you roll a '13' on 2D6, you win...I think it was supposed to be one of those 'joke rules' for Skaven [i.e; Rolling a 13 on 2D6 is impossible. Do you get the joke?]. But then somebody went and actually made it happen, using Tzeentch allies.)

I'm considering bringing in a number of Aelf or Freeguild wizards to boost my Dispossessed. I wouldn't mind a Freeguild Griffon.

EDIT:
Yeah, I'm convinced. The Order Battle Trait is kind of amazing (no Battleshock), it's just that anecdotally, the two Order guys (myself and Seraphon) basically already had their Trait built in.

[Requizen]

I can't speak for the Eternals, but Seraphon are pretty good.

As I mentioned, everything they own has Bravery 10, so your opponent has to kill five models per turn before you even remotely give a crap about Battleshock. From the games I played, Battleshock was the biggest killer. At the end of turn, lose two dudes, lose one dude, lose three dudes. I realised what was happening real fast. In my second game over the weekend, I reworked my list to basically never take Battleshock, giving myself re-rolls, only losing half models, not taking them at all, etc. and Dispossessed can do that, they have certain characters and items to mitigate Battleshock.

Meanwhile, the Seraphon player at the next table, was pretending to play Space Marines and being like "What even is Battleshock?" and playing hilarious games of attrition with his opponent. Like I said, the lizards angels have to lose five models before they even need to roll. On their return, they kill three models, and then their opponents lose another two to Battleshock.

Also; Chameleon Skinks can go die in a fire.

Going forwards, I think one of the major shapers of the meta is how each army reacts to Battleshock. Personally, when I stopped taking Battleshock tests, I stopped losing. I was playing Dispossessed. Kind of like how two of the best rules in 40K are Fearless and ATSKNF.

Funny, I was thinking about how Chameleon Skinks were a really solid little unit and already figuring out how to get them :P
Bravery 10 army feels like an obvious transition from my "literally everything is LD10 or Fearless" Necrons. And giant Dinosaurs are cool.

I'm really going to play around with the points some over the next week or so. I don't want to end up with another 200 models and only use a fraction of them (hence why I sold my 40k Daemons), so I want to make sure I get a list down.


The Allies system in AoS is insane. Take anything you want, as long as it's from the same Faction (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction). I don't recall if there were any negatives to bringing models from different Factions, save that you simply would lose bonuses. The potential for bloat is crazy. Fortunately, since 'everyone' hates AoS, there aren't going to be a whole lot of net-lists running around, which means everyone will have to figure it out for themselves.
(Although I do recall the infamous Skaven/Tzeentch combo where if you roll a '13' on 2D6, you win...I think it was supposed to be one of those 'joke rules' for Skaven [i.e; Rolling a 13 on 2D6 is impossible. Do you get the joke?]. But then somebody went and actually made it happen, using Tzeentch allies.)

I'm considering bringing in a number of Aelf or Freeguild wizards to boost my Dispossessed. I wouldn't mind a Freeguild Griffon.

I really meant bloat in the amount of rules. Hitting, wounding, casting - it's all very straightforward and I like that. No charts to memorize, no 50 pages of USRs to memorize, if you need to know someone's rules you just download the free rules and read them.

I would call the combo/ally potential more closer to "depth" than bloat, even though it's not "deep" in the way more complex games are. It just means that there are a lot more options and you can easily fill out your shortcomings with a massive array of options. I like it quite a bit.

[Drasius]

The Allies system in AoS is insane. Take anything you want, as long as it's from the same Faction (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction). I don't recall if there were any negatives to bringing models from different Factions, save that you simply would lose bonuses. The potential for bloat is crazy. Fortunately, since 'everyone' hates AoS, there aren't going to be a whole lot of net-lists running around, which means everyone will have to figure it out for themselves.
(Although I do recall the infamous Skaven/Tzeentch combo where if you roll a '13' on 2D6, you win...I think it was supposed to be one of those 'joke rules' for Skaven [i.e; Rolling a 13 on 2D6 is impossible. Do you get the joke?]. But then somebody went and actually made it happen, using Tzeentch allies.)

Fateweaver (why yes, he IS amazing in everything, why do you ask?) and the Screaming Bell. Roll 2 dice (note; not 2d6), look at the table of results from 2 - 13. Roll of a 13 means you win, match ends right there. Fateweavers special ability is to choose the value for a dice once per turn (note; not chose between 1 - 6). So you go, roll your dice, fateweaver picks a result of 7-12 for one of the dice (RAW legal, but clearly not RAI) and you won immediately. Or your opponent goes and because you've held them on the back edge of your board most thing were out of range and then you had your turn and won.

Since it was only 2 models, it also meant they got sudden death against you every single time too. Good luck ever getting a game again though.

Fun.

IIRC, the new ally system just means you can't take certain things as troops if you take allies. Having said that, the 1 thing I liked from AoS 1.0 was the degrading monstrous creature profiles, I dearly hope 40k adopts this to weaken 40k MC's and GMC's for 8th. The limitations on leaders/behemoths and elites or whatever they're called is the 1 thing I like so far from AoS 2.0, but then I'd be happy if 40k went back to something like 3rd where there were actual restrictions on bring supposedly super rare stuff (ie. 0-1 Obliterators etc)

[Coyote81]

Fateweaver (why yes, he IS amazing in everything, why do you ask?) and the Screaming Bell. Roll 2 dice (note; not 2d6), look at the table of results from 2 - 13. Roll of a 13 means you win, match ends right there. Fateweavers special ability is to choose the value for a dice once per turn (note; not chose between 1 - 6). So you go, roll your dice, fateweaver picks a result of 7-12 for one of the dice (RAW legal, but clearly not RAI) and you won immediately. Or your opponent goes and because you've held them on the back edge of your board most thing were out of range and then you had your turn and won.

I still don't know why people keep completely misquote the fateweaver rules and trying to cheat. It says you can change the results of a single dice roll tot he results of your choosing. There are only 6 results on each die, and therefore you can only choose 1-6 for each die, i.e.2-12 for the whole dice roll. The age of sigmar rules says the game uses six sided dice. You clearly can never get a result of 13, it was a joke!

I don't know where this value garbage comes from.

[Drasius]

I still don't know why people keep completely misquote the fateweaver rules and trying to cheat. It says you can change the results of a single dice roll tot he results of your choosing. There are only 6 results on each die, and therefore you can only choose 1-6 for each die, i.e.2-12 for the whole dice roll. The age of sigmar rules says the game uses six sided dice. You clearly can never get a result of 13, it was a joke!

I don't know where this value garbage comes from.

RAW. I can change the result of 1 dice to a result of my choosing. No limitations on what number I choose, no restrictions on it being 1-6.

Obviously any sane person wouldn't play with you ever again, and no TO would allow it in a tourney, but RAW, it's legit. Stupid and obviously not working as intended, but legit. Think of it as pun-pun for AoS, it's a thought excersise, not something to actually be used.

[Requizen]

Well obviously with a smaller, less robust ruleset there will be RAW things, but The Rules specifically state "Warhammer: Age of Sigmar uses six-sided dice (sometimes abbreviated to D6).", so I would argue that even RAW supports that not being the case.

Anyone fooled around with points yet? It looks like at the very least the big scary things are appropriately costed (unlike a certain 40k model we all know and hate), though time will tell which units are standouts in the point-to-power system.



So Seraphon drew me in with big dinosaurs but now I'm also sorta interested in the Stormcast Eternals, specifically trying to make a force that uses a lot of ranged options with the Knight-Venator, Javelin Prosecutors, and/or Judicators, obviously supported with some sort of strong frontline (maybe some Dracoth riders or buffed Liberators). I really want to run a small, elite army, and I think it could work really well in AoS (not so much now in 40k with the state of the game).

[Cheesegear]

Anyone fooled around with points yet?

Of course. Everything seems fairly fine. Although, like you said, it'll take a while before the points-to-power is looked at in any sort of depth - and you know I will be! Primarily because the book isn't even out yet. I feel like paying 180 Points for a Cannon is a bit much. But, a significant chunk of that feeling is because I'm not yet playing at a high enough points level where I can do anything I want. I feel that once my meta has a handle on things, we'll be playing 1500 or 2000 Points. By the time the book comes out in two weeks, I'll have a much stronger feel for the game and how things work, and I'll be hitting the ground running - I hope.

Magic heavy armies have been hit severely with the nerf bat. But, I wouldn't know, since I play Dwarfs and don't go in for fancy magic... Although I'll probably end up doing so, because of how Allies work.


I really want to run a small, elite army, and I think it could work really well in AoS...

I tentatively disagree. Many of the Missions require five models within 3" to count the Objective as 'Scored'. Units with small numbers of models, can't really score in more than one Mission. If you've got five models on an Objective, and one of them dies - taking you down to 4 models - you're no longer Scoring. Ouch!

[Requizen]

Magic heavy armies have been hit severely with the nerf bat. But, I wouldn't know, since I play Dwarfs and don't go in for fancy magic... Although I'll probably end up doing so, because of how Allies work.

Why is that, just because of the Rule of One? I guess it depends on how good your specific, non-baseline spells are. I think armies that bring multiple different Wizards will be fine, but no spamming of the best one in your book (which seems ok to me).


I tentatively disagree. Many of the Missions require five models within 3" to count the Objective as 'Scored'. Units with small numbers of models, can't really score in more than one Mission. If you've got five models on an Objective, and one of them dies - taking you down to 4 models - you're no longer Scoring. Ouch!

Oof, I didn't know that. That changes list building quite a bit, but I still want to use at least one or two big "power units" like Heroes or big Dinos in my armies, I just really like that aesthetic.

[Erloas]

I still find it rather amusing that any discussion about AoS starts with several pages of house rules to make up for the complete and total lack of real rules in the 4 page rulebook. Personally with the huge variety of amazing games out there I don't see why I should play one that the developers hardly even tried on and the models cost a lot more than most other companies charge. And that would be true even if they hadn't destroyed a decent game and a great setting in the process.
Though I'll leave it at that, because that general discussion has been beat.

[Cheesegear]

Oof, I didn't know that.

...


Ogres are stupid strong. Fortunately, in a few of the missions, you need five or more models on the Objective to score, and Ogres come in minimum units of three. lol. It was fun watching the Ogre player realise that he couldn't Score without holding back two units per Objective...Then he decided to table me...Which he then proceeded to do. Ogres are stupid strong...

It's certainly possible to have a unit of three on an Objective...Provided you have another two models from somewhere else, also within 3" of the Objective.

Remember, only some Missions require five models to Score, and also remember that '5 models' means literally any five models, not just five models from the same unit.

[Requizen]

I still find it rather amusing that any discussion about AoS starts with several pages of house rules to make up for the complete and total lack of real rules in the 4 page rulebook. Personally with the huge variety of amazing games out there I don't see why I should play one that the developers hardly even tried on and the models cost a lot more than most other companies charge. And that would be true even if they hadn't destroyed a decent game and a great setting in the process.
Though I'll leave it at that, because that general discussion has been beat.
I think it's because the core game works fine. It's simplified and the game seems to play really smoothly from what I've watched and read. And at least a few of those needed houserules will be rolled up into the General's Handbook, because GW actually realized they made a mistake.

I feel like every tabletop game I play uses houserules. All of my different 40k groups sure do - tournaments have their changes, our local group establishes limits as to what we use and only use unbound at the opponent's agreement, etc. D&D has houserules - in fact, I don't remember the last pen and paper RPG I played where they didn't houserule at least a few things (generally minor, but still there). It's not surprising that AoS has them too - people just like to harp on them more because of the severely broken base that the initial launch made.

...

It's certainly possible to have a unit of three on an Objective...Provided you have another two models from somewhere else, also within 3" of the Objective.

Remember, only some Missions require five models to Score, and also remember that '5 models' means literally any five models, not just five models from the same unit.
Bleh I totally missed that. I wonder if that'll push more MSU style, 3-10 man units but never maxing and just holding each objective with a couple dudes.

[Cheesegear]

I think it's because the core game works fine. It's simplified and the game seems to play really smoothly from what I've watched and read.

People keep complaining about 'Only 4 Pages', like...As if that's some kind of detriment to the game. That's it's selling point!
The three house rules that I mentioned, remove rules (Triumphs, Mysterious Terrain and Initiative), meaning that there's even less rules in the game, which makes it better.

More rules != More better.
Complex rules != More better.

Good rules, are good rules, and bad rules, are bad rules. Age of Sigmar does not have bad rules...Anymore.


because GW actually realized they made a mistake.

It makes more sense when you tell yourself that everything up until The General's Handbook has been a beta test, and now everything is fine.


Bleh I totally missed that. I wonder if that'll push more MSU style, 3-10 man units but never maxing and just holding each objective with a couple dudes.

Nobody I've played with in the last week has taken any more than 10 models per unit...However, you spam that unit like all get out. Instead of 30 Thunderers, I have 3 units of ten. Same number of models, more ability to Score Objectives. But, you play Maelstrom, you know how this works.

[LCP]

I feel like every tabletop game I play uses houserules.

There's a difference between needing house rules to make the game most enjoyable for you, and needing house rules to make the game remotely playable. If you take this argument to its extreme a blank sheet of paper is a great game system, you just need a few house rules to make it work.


Age of Sigmar does not have bad rules...Anymore.

Shooting out of combat, into combat. Still there.

Measuring from the model, not the base. Still there. This one can't be stressed enough - the difference between whether your Chaos Warrior can reach the Ogre Bull he's in base contact with is whether you've modelled him with his sword outstretched - but if you have, congratulations, it now costs him a lot more movement to turn. Not that that matters because he can just moonwalk into combat!

Flat damage output, leading to a 1D scale of unit power. Still there.

No core mechanism for dealing damage, leading to every damage-dealing effect that can't be put into a weapon profile ending up as some variation on "1D6 mortal wounds". Still there.

Massive proliferation of differing special rules for the same damn thing (i.e. shields) due to the lack of any kind of centralised standard. Your skeletons have shields... are those the shields that let you reroll ones to save, or that boost your save by one, or that do both those things but only if you do a spooky dance? Still there.

Equipment choices which are probabilistically identical (e.g. hit on 2+/wound on 3+ or hit on 3+/wound on 2+! which will you choose??!!!!!) or else where one choice is strictly superior to the other for zero cost. Still there.

Those are just some of the actively bad things in the rules that are still there. Rules can be bad for many reasons, and one of the reasons can be that they're shallow. There are games with deep gameplay whose rules you can fit on 4 pages (e.g. chess) and there are games with terrible gameplay that have huge rulebooks. But simultaneously there are games with shallow gameplay whose rules you can fit on 4 pages (e.g. tic tac toe, Battleship) and AoS is one of them. Movement is uniform and isotropic, damage is one-dimensional, morale is just a subsystem of damage, and inside this extremely stripped-down framework they have somehow still managed to include a number of game-breaking bugs.

I shouldn't keep banging this drum, but I'd still say - Requizen, if the reason you want to play this game is because you like GW plastics, use GW plastics to play another game. No other company is as weird about third party miniatures as GW are. And if the miniatures you like are Lizardmen, just play 9th Age - it's inherited the WFB tournament scene, it's much better-balanced than any GW offering, and those are the miniatures it was originally intended for.

[Erloas]

What LCP said.

I've played and really enjoy plenty of games with simple rules, but those rules work very well together, are very precise, and are well balanced. AoS's rules are none of those things.

@Requizen As for house rules, I would say much of what you refereed to is more of "local meta" rather than real house rules. The biggest problem with AoS's house rules is that there are a dozen different versions that people use and all have drastic, and often completely different, styles of play that they lead to. You can't take your army when you travel and play games at other local shops and know what you have will work (in a "legal" or gameplay sense).
It is one thing for a local meta to say "we don't like using super big units in small games" or "we don't like playing gunline lists, they are stale and boring" and something completely different to say "we're re-writing this core rule of the game that changes how the game works in a rather fundamental way"

[Requizen]

There's a difference between needing house rules to make the game most enjoyable for you, and needing house rules to make the game remotely playable. If you take this argument to its extreme a blank sheet of paper is a great game system, you just need a few house rules to make it work.
The game is for sure playable without the houserules. The ones that CG listed, they were just removing random things that people disliked. People play with those random things in place and enjoy it, and GW said specifically that you should feel free to use or not use things you don't like.

Shooting out of combat, into combat. Still there.
I don't mind that so much. It's different from 40k, but different is ok. It speeds up the game a bit and makes shooting units both powerful (in that they can shoot things no matter what) but also vulnerable (once they get into assault they're screwed usually).

Measuring from the model, not the base. Still there. This one can't be stressed enough - the difference between whether your Chaos Warrior can reach the Ogre Bull he's in base contact with is whether you've modelled him with his sword outstretched - but if you have, congratulations, it now costs him a lot more movement to turn. Not that that matters because he can just moonwalk into combat!
Fair - though, not to take the wind out of your sails, but the General's Handbook says specifically you can measure base to base if you and your opponent want to. Another thing they actually listened about.

Flat damage output, leading to a 1D scale of unit power. Still there.
Eh, I don't really know how badly I feel about this one. Tough things are extremely tough (16 freaking wounds with saves and sometimes healing and special saves!) and the damage dealers vary in their use. Of course, with a system like this there may be units that are too good for what they do and will end up being the default damage dealer for their army, but that's the same as it is in every other wargame out there, no matter the system they use.

No core mechanism for dealing damage, leading to every damage-dealing effect that can't be put into a weapon profile ending up as some variation on "1D6 mortal wounds". Still there.
I don't know why this is bad. You don't need a complicated system for dealing damage. Wounds can take saves. Mortal Wounds cannot take saves. Streamlined is not bad, simple isn't bad.

Massive proliferation of differing special rules for the same damn thing (i.e. shields) due to the lack of any kind of centralised standard. Your skeletons have shields... are those the shields that let you reroll ones to save, or that boost your save by one, or that do both those things but only if you do a spooky dance? Still there.
Honestly? This is a good thing. I'd rather not have a massive index of rules that I have to reference to know what a unit does. Even if it's reprinted on multiple Warscrolls, the fact that you can just look down and see exactly what all their rules are is nice.

"Can I Fleet Consolidation rolls?" Answered this a bunch of times. If fleet was right there on the page and not having to go to a different book into a large appendix, it'd be faster. Print out the ~10 Warscrolls you need, or have them on your phone, and that's it.

Equipment choices which are probabilistically identical (e.g. hit on 2+/wound on 3+ or hit on 3+/wound on 2+! which will you choose??!!!!!) or else where one choice is strictly superior to the other for zero cost. Still there.
I've not looked at all the options in all armies, but just looking at Seraphon and Stormcast, most different options have cases that make them better or worse, or for ranged at the very least you have to decide between shorter ranged but stronger vs longer range and safer, but less powerful. That's a fine decision, is it not?

And 2+/3+ vs 3+/2+ seems identical until you start picking them based on the rest of the army. You have something that boosts your hit rolls? B is better. Different weapons for different army choices.

Those are just some of the actively bad things in the rules that are still there. Rules can be bad for many reasons, and one of the reasons can be that they're shallow. There are games with deep gameplay whose rules you can fit on 4 pages (e.g. chess) and there are games with terrible gameplay that have huge rulebooks. But simultaneously there are games with shallow gameplay whose rules you can fit on 4 pages (e.g. tic tac toe, Battleship) and AoS is one of them. Movement is uniform and isotropic, damage is one-dimensional, morale is just a subsystem of damage, and inside this extremely stripped-down framework they have somehow still managed to include a number of game-breaking bugs.

I shouldn't keep banging this drum, but I'd still say - Requizen, if the reason you want to play this game is because you like GW plastics, use GW plastics to play another game. No other company is as weird about third party miniatures as GW are. And if the miniatures you like are Lizardmen, just play 9th Age - it's inherited the WFB tournament scene, it's much better-balanced than any GW offering, and those are the miniatures it was originally intended for.

I understand your criticisms, and I can see why you may not enjoy it. But I honestly have been reading through things for about a week now and I feel like the rules are at the very least workable and the games have been very fun to watch. I'm still having fun with 40k, but sometimes I want to take a break from Deathstars and Superheavies without having to go to ultra casual mode.

I have no desire to play 9th Age. I never was interested in the rank-and-file style of WHFB, I like AoS because it's more skirmish-flavored. I've looked into Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux, but they don't do anything for me. DZC is the only one I'm vaguely interested in, but there's no scene around here for it and I couldn't see myself enjoying it for too long. I do appreciate your concern in the matter, but I rarely go into a purchase of this size blindly and I know what the game's about and the competitor's offerings. There's a lot of merit in your stance, but I do also think that for your criticisms, there's a reason that AoS is suddenly growing and it's not because nobody knows about other mini games.

[Requizen]

What LCP said.

I've played and really enjoy plenty of games with simple rules, but those rules work very well together, are very precise, and are well balanced. AoS's rules are none of those things.

@Requizen As for house rules, I would say much of what you refereed to is more of "local meta" rather than real house rules. The biggest problem with AoS's house rules is that there are a dozen different versions that people use and all have drastic, and often completely different, styles of play that they lead to. You can't take your army when you travel and play games at other local shops and know what you have will work (in a "legal" or gameplay sense).
It is one thing for a local meta to say "we don't like using super big units in small games" or "we don't like playing gunline lists, they are stale and boring" and something completely different to say "we're re-writing this core rule of the game that changes how the game works in a rather fundamental way"

Well, you can now. That's what this new book is, rules that you can walk into a store and say "hey I've got 1000 points of Chaos, let's play Pitched". I'm not saying that AoS on release was a great game, but this changes things quite a bit.

[LCP]

Fair 'nuff. You sound like you've thought it through, and certainly it's not my place to tell you whether to enjoy a game or not. I could go on for days about what I see as the problems in AoS' game design but that is ultimately subjective.

(because I can't resist, I will point out that this:

Fair - though, not to take the wind out of your sails, but the General's Handbook says specifically you can measure base to base if you and your opponent want to. Another thing they actually listened about.
is a classic example of the "blank sheet of paper" problem. Any problem can be resolved if you and your opponent both agree on a solution; getting permission from GW to change their rules without them actually issuing a correction is about as relevant as getting permission from the Queen!)

You say AoS is undergoing a lot of growth where you are? I've fallen completely out of touch with my gaming circle since I moved country so I have no sense for that ATM - would be curious to know if true. Considering the reception of its launch it has a lot of ground to make up.

[Requizen]

Fair 'nuff. You sound like you've thought it through, and certainly it's not my place to tell you whether to enjoy a game or not. I could go on for days about what I see as the problems in AoS' game design but that is ultimately subjective.

(because I can't resist, I will point out that this:

is a classic example of the "blank sheet of paper" problem. Any problem can be resolved if you and your opponent both agree on a solution; getting permission from GW to change their rules without them actually issuing a correction is about as relevant as getting permission from the Queen!)

You say AoS is undergoing a lot of growth where you are? I've fallen completely out of touch with my gaming circle since I moved country so I have no sense for that ATM - would be curious to know if true. Considering the reception of its launch it has a lot of ground to make up.
Good to see that we can always agree to disagree :smallbiggrin: Wish more people on the 'net were as understanding.

I first got interested in AoS when Frontline Gaming started putting out more out reports and articles on it, and people started posting about how much they were enjoying it since playing by some of the big GT rules (SCGT being the most popular from what I've seen). I asked my 40k group if they were interested at all, and a good majority said yes, including a lot of high-level 40k tourney players. We're going to try a 1000 point event once people get some armies together, though I'll be practicing smaller stuff as I go.

[LCP]

I've heard from here and there that the General's Handbook is in part based on conversations GW had with the creators of some of the more widely-used comp systems. I don't know whether I'd expect GW's approach would be better or worse; on the one hand I trust their expertise less, but on the other hand they won't have been hemmed in by the comp-writers' need for minimalism. If/when you get your hands on it I'd be interested to hear the exact changes.

[Drasius]

You say AoS is undergoing a lot of growth where you are? I've fallen completely out of touch with my gaming circle since I moved country so I have no sense for that ATM - would be curious to know if true. Considering the reception of its launch it has a lot of ground to make up.

Up here it's kinda weird, we've got one of the smaller player bases of the Australian GW's, yet our store was ranked 3rd in how well AoS did/sold, to the point where (from my understanding), we're one of the few places to have an open copy of every AoS book (whereas there's no open copy of any 40k 'dexes since Necrons). AoS has been the dominant game for the last ~6 months here and it's only gotten stronger since the Generals handbook was announced, then again once the manager came back from the workshop where they rolled out the book to staff, and then again now that we've got an open copy. We've already had 2 store AoS campaigns and now quite a few people have started new AoS armies for the realm war or whatever the global campaign is.

It's doubly strange since this place normally goes in cycles of 40k for ~6-8 months then Fantasy for 4-6 months but lately it's been all AoS all the time with 40k very much on the backburner. Out of the last 4 tournies for 40k, 2 have been cancelled from lack of interest, 1 delayed due to lack of interest/poor timing and 1 run with a low player-count. In fact, there's now not a single person up here without some sort of AoS/Fantasy army (though there's a couple of us who don't play AoS) where there are at least 2 people without any 40k.

[Cheesegear]

Shooting out of combat, into combat. Still there.

Now that I know that it's part of the game, I can work around it. I'm fine with it.


Measuring from the model, not the base.

General's Handbook makes the change...If you want. I actually happen to live in a meta where if you're a douche, you wont get games. If it is known that someone is modelling for advantage, or making 'stupid' models clearly designed to abuse the rules...That person doesn't get games anymore.

So, again. I know that measuring from the model is a thing. Except it probably wont be. Because General's Handbook. But it's the same thing that I said before regarding Initiative. If I know that a meta/tournament measures from the model, then Spears suddenly get real good. If the meta measures from the base, then Spears don't really matter.

I know these rules exist, therefore I can adapt.


Flat damage output, leading to a 1D scale of unit power. Still there.

I don't even understand the problem, here.


No core mechanism for dealing damage, leading to every damage-dealing effect that can't be put into a weapon profile ending up as some variation on "1D6 mortal wounds". Still there.

I don't even understand the problem, here.


Massive proliferation of differing special rules for the same damn thing (i.e. shields) due to the lack of any kind of centralised standard.

My 8th Ed. Fantasy rulebook is 150 pages long. I was expected to memorise roughly 90% of it if I wanted to play games in any serious fashion.
My AoS rulebook is only 4 pages long, and the only rules I need to know at the table are those that directly relate to the army I'm playing. I do not need to learn rules for a model's Shields that I don't have.

Since my worklife basically revolves around Excel, I made myself a Summary Sheet for all the units in my army. Easy. Anyone can do it (although it may be easier for me than most, since, you know, Excel is basically my job). OpenOffice is free, if you don't want to give Microsoft money or you just can't afford real Office. I used OpenOffice all through my University days. It was free, and did the same job.

My point is, if you've been memorising 150 page rulebooks up until now, memorising a handful of Warscrolls (even if some of them are different for no reason), should be easy. If you can't, there's always making spreadsheets.


And if the miniatures you like are Lizardmen, just play 9th Age - it's inherited the WFB tournament scene, it's much better-balanced than any GW offering, and those are the miniatures it was originally intended for.

But that's the thing; I didn't like WHFB. I don't like 9th Age. But I like AoS (now).
Why? Because I like 40K, and AoS is more like 40K? Maybe. In fact almost definitely. But there it is.

AoS is nothing like WHFB. For better or worse. I completely understand why some ex-WHFB players feel boxed out, and have moved to 9th Age, and AoS is terrible and the worst. In my case, though, AoS is better than WHFB.


Up here it's kinda weird, we've got one of the smaller player bases of the Australian GW's, yet our store was ranked 3rd in how well AoS did/sold, to the point where (from my understanding), we're one of the few places to have an open copy of every AoS book (whereas there's no open copy of any 40k 'dexes since Necrons). AoS has been the dominant game for the last ~6 months here and it's only gotten stronger since the Generals handbook was announced, then again once the manager came back from the workshop where they rolled out the book to staff, and then again now that we've got an open copy. We've already had 2 store AoS campaigns and now quite a few people have started new AoS armies for the realm war or whatever the global campaign is.

AoS has always fell flat, everyone in my meta hated AoS. We made jokes about how terrible it was.
Since we got our Open Copy of TGH, AoS has been going on in the store non-stop, on nearly all tables. All of the unemployed guys came out of their holes and stopped playing Overwatch for five seconds and came into the store to play AoS, and then they came in the next day, and the next day. Games Night (Thursday) was everyone playing AoS, non-stop from midday to 8pm, people couldn't get games because the store only had three tables. And we were only playing 1000 Points to speed things along, and people still had to line up for the tables. We've had our TGH for five days, and it's already basically ruined.

I haven't seen this much excitement in store. In like, ever.
I watched someone snap all the square bases off his models and put them on round bases. I did the same thing. It's not new. But the kicker is, the guy I watched actually plays 9th Age.


In fact, there's now not a single person up here without some sort of AoS/Fantasy army...

A week ago, I would've said that nobody in my area has an AoS army. Turns out, I'm completely wrong. Everyone has an AoS army sitting on their shelf just waiting for something exactly like TGH to come along.

[LCP]

I don't even understand the problem, here.

I feel like this could be a derail of Requizen's thread so I'll put it in spoilers, but this is one of the big problems I have with the game's design so I want to talk about it.

WFB and 40K are both built off the same engine. When units fight, you get three rolls: to hit, to wound, to save. Those are three dimensions in which you can play for an advantage - both at the list-building stage and by the tactical positioning of unit vs unit once play begins. This is one of the core pillars of both systems and generates a sliding scale of soft counters that pretty much defines how those games play. You can mitigate being easy to wound by being hard to hit, or vice versa, and the same goes for going on the offense. How you play those numbers comes down to which unit you put up against which unit, and particularly in the case of WFB shooting, how those units manoeuvre (tactical positioning gives lots of ways to rack up penalties to the to-hit roll).

AoS keeps the shell of that system but absolutely guts what makes it work. The only thing that is still cross-referenced between units is saving throw vs. the Rend value of the incoming attacks. Otherwise, everything else is inherent to the attacker. To hit is fixed, to wound is fixed, so there is no longer any reason for these two things to be separate rolls. The probability of a wounding hit is the product of the two probabilities on the sheet, you might as well just roll once against that probability and be done with it. As Requizen points out there are combos and abilities that give you bonuses or penalties to one half of the calculation or the other, but the distinction is meaningless - you might as well work out the overall contribution from that ability and add it to the single roll. You do get a slightly finer gradation of probabilities by chaining dice rolls than by rolling a single die, but only if you insist on sticking to rolling 1D6 at a time, which there's absolutely no reason to do - you could switch to 1d10, or 2d6, or anything else you pleased to get the same effect without the partitioning. I don't believe for one moment this is why GW stuck with that system; I think it's cargo cult game design where they are reappropriating what they know with no understanding of what makes it tick.

The end result is that there's now only one dimension along which units are compared - save vs. rend. Everything else is flat. This unit is going to do [so many] wounds to anything it targets, modified by saves; hope your unit has enough wounds. That makes the calculation of a unit's value really simplistic, and not in a good way - where previously you were thinking in three dimensions about your ability to deal and tank wounds, now you're thinking in one - no rock-paper-scissors, just rock/bigger rock. Add to that that you've also lost Initiative (the stat), that morale has become just another way of dealing damage, and that it's become a hell of a lot harder to block or control the opponent's means of dealing damage to you (e.g. 360 LOS, shoot whoever you want whenever you want with no penalties) and a huge portion of the game just collapses down to a one-dimensional DPS calculation. Only target priority and positioning remain as genuinely tactical choices - but let's be honest, anyone can write "you have models, they can move N" a turn". You need to build something more interesting from that for the gameplay to be good. Objectives are a good start, but without decent unit-on-unit combat, movement + objectives really gives you a Monopoly-esque board game, not a wargame.

When I look at the rules for AoS, that's my biggest complaint. It's not that it's a skirmish game, or that it's too simple, or that it's not WFB. It's that its core engine looks like it was written by people who didn't understand what they were writing - in fact, in places even look like they were innumerate. All those problems are fixable, but I'd say if you fix them all - and you need to fix them all - you don't have AoS, you have a new game. It's like giving someone a brain transplant - you haven't saved the original person, you've just salvaged some usable parts.

On measuring from the model - that's not a question of "being a douche", that's a question of the base game being at all playable as written. Get a HE phoenix and build it out of the box exactly as the instructions say. Put it in base to base contact with one of your dwarfs. Measure the distance between the models. Are either of them allowed to fight each other? Take a chariot model and put it exactly within charge range of a unit at ninety degrees to the left or right. Which move will get it into combat - turning to face them before moving, the way any sane person would expect, or doing an impossible sideways slide into the target unit?

Yes the General's Handbook says you can ignore this rule and replace it with your own. To borrow a phrase of yours, pro tip: you could already do that. That's like a car manufacturer saying hey, if you don't like these triangular wheels, feel free to go find some round ones. The minimum expectation from a pricey game produced by a supposedly market-leading company should be that it doesn't have such abjectly broken rules in it in the first place.




All the above is just me venting my opinion - like I said, there's no sense in me telling people who enjoy a game not to do so, and that's not what I'm aiming to do. It's also true that I do miss WFB and my opinion of AoS will always be coloured by the way GW handled that transition. Still, if this General's Handbook stuff can do something to bail out the sinking ship of the old WFB tourney community, that's in my interests socially, even if it was AoS that put the hole in the hull in the first place. I'd be interested to hear exactly what it fixes.

[Coyote81]

While I certainly miss the old WHFB system. Especially miss the old storyline and my woodelves. I became a big fan of 40k during the dying days of WHFB and was honestly interested in a 40k styled WHFB. The implementation was really bad. No points, vague rules. No force org chart (Which I thought was superior to fantasy's organization system). And the most godawful summoning system I could imagine.

Having read the general's handbook and the recently released sylvaneth battletome (For an idea of the direction the game is going) I'm interested again.

-A force org chart
-bonuses for using faction specific lists, but still open for those who want to mix and match
-fixed summoning system
-and they just about got the objective system right (I really think battleline units should be the only ones to hold objectives, this is one of the most important parts of 40k imo)

I think the new matched system could lead to very fun games, much like 40k, as long as good amount of terrain is used to prevent shooting from dominating the format much like has happened in 40k.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I signed up for a nearby-ish GW's AoS campaign. No idea how long I'll bother with it since the GH's campaign rules so clearly screw over subfactions that don't have a battle tome. So if I want to play beastmen I can't have a beastman hero for some stupid reason and if I want to use Death I can choose between having synergies or not being Flesh Eater Court.



The Allies system in AoS is insane. Take anything you want, as long as it's from the same Faction (Order, Chaos, Death, Destruction). I don't recall if there were any negatives to bringing models from different Factions, save that you simply would lose bonuses. The potential for bloat is crazy.

The 'balancing' system is how most of the buffs are key word specific and the stat lines are so flat that many units are interchangeable.

The problem is that the few units who have wider key-words on their buff abilities (like 'any order') are basically must haves in mixed armies while other ones (like 'within tiny Aelf subfaction only') are worthless outside of spam lists.

Then you have nonsense like how the non-hero version of the Warsphinx has the deathrattle keyword due to the tomb guard in its howdah and therefore is the only monster that can take advantage of really powerful buffs and extra action powers that are only supposed to work on massed fodder.

[LCP]

What's in the force org chart?

[Requizen]

What's in the force org chart?

You can only have so many Leaders (Heroes/Characters/whatever). For 1000 it's 1-4, for 2000 it's 1-6, and 2500 it's 1-8. You can still relatively spam if you want, but it's hard to make an army full of them.

You must have a base amount of Battleline units. These are basically troops. Some units are always Battleline (like Skeletons) while others only become Battleline if you play that allegiance only (Black Knights are Battleline if you only play Deathrattle units in your army). 1000 is 2+ units, 2000 is 3+, 2500 is 4+. So, basically meaning you can't just take power units, much like a CAD.

You can only have so many Behemoths (big monsters). 1000 is 0-2, 2000 is 0-4, 2500 is 0-5.
You can only have so many Artillery units. 1000 is 0-2, 2000 is 0-4, 2500 is 0-5.

Units that have multiple roles (like character riding Dragons are Leader, Behemoth) take up a slot for both. So you can take an Archmage on a Dragon as your required 1 Leader, but it also counts towards your Behemoth limitation.

I think it works quite well. It's not perfect, but neither is the 40k CAD since some armies can abuse it way more than others. At the very least, it gives you point values (which themselves seem to be pretty good, time will tell as I said) and keeps people from bringing nothing but power units and nothing else.

[LCP]

Sounds a lot like the system used in 6th/7th WFB (particularly the way the requirements scale with points value). I assume the book's got a big list of which units are in which category (for those categories that aren't defined by keywords)?

Going purely off my intuition from what things used to cost, though, up to 2 big monsters and up to 4 characters in 1k still sounds like herohammer is on the table - you'll just have to take two min-sized core units as a tax.

[Requizen]

Sounds a lot like the system used in 6th/7th WFB (particularly the way the requirements scale with points value). I assume the book's got a big list of which units are in which category (for those categories that aren't defined by keywords)?

Going purely off my intuition from what things used to cost, though, up to 2 big monsters and up to 4 characters in 1k still sounds like herohammer is on the table - you'll just have to take two min-sized core units as a tax.

I don't know the WHFB systems, but yeah it does have a list of all currently available units in the Handbook and their roles. It's pretty straightforward, though, from looking at things - characters are Leaders, big things are Behemoths, long range damage stuff is Artillery, basic troops are Battleline. But, it's nice to have the clarification for sure.

As Cheese said, some missions require you to have 5 models on an objective to hold it, so while you can go Herohammer, you'd probably lose in missions. But, you can go for the tabling, which is very similar to how 40k armies play as well, like Deathstars and Flyrant spam and stuff.

The one thing I note is that it's hard to make exactly 1000/2000/2500 point lists. The only pricing is the units themselves, and you always have to pay the minimum price. For example, if your Battleline unit is 120 for 5, you add another 120 for each 5 more you want to add, but if you only add 3, then you still add 120 since it's between 5 and 10. So, if you're at like 980 points, there are no upgrades to fill out the points with like there are in 40k. I guess that's just something to take into account when list building, though.

[Cheesegear]

For example, if your Battleline unit is 120 for 5, you add another 120 for each 5 more you want to add, but if you only add 3, then you still add 120 since it's between 5 and 10.

Correct. There is no reason to have less than the models you're allowed. There are only a handful of boxes that GW sells that screw it up.
(e.g; Leadbelchers and Ironguts come in blocks of 3, but GW sells boxes of 4 models)


So, if you're at like 980 points, there are no upgrades to fill out the points with like there are in 40k.

Yep. Triumphs are designed to fix the gap, of whoever has the least points gets a (fairly minor) bonus. I've already mentioned how people deliberately hamstrung themselves to gain said bonus. In 1000 Point games, we found that the bonus wasn't worth 60 Points (940), but it was worth 40-50 (950-960).

Due to how Allies work, just trawl through your Faction 'til you find something that fits.

[Coyote81]

Sounds a lot like the system used in 6th/7th WFB (particularly the way the requirements scale with points value). I assume the book's got a big list of which units are in which category (for those categories that aren't defined by keywords)?

Going purely off my intuition from what things used to cost, though, up to 2 big monsters and up to 4 characters in 1k still sounds like herohammer is on the table - you'll just have to take two min-sized core units as a tax.

There is a downsize of several missions requiring a minimum number of models nearby to hold objectives, making herohammer a little risky. I kind of wish they had made it battline units. Troops in 40k are one of my favorite things.

[Cheesegear]

I kind of wish they had made it battlein units. Troops in 40k are one of my favorite things.

I don't. That would basically make the Missions unplayable as written.
A Battleline unit, would have to make it into the enemy's DZ, with more than five models. That's fairly impossible.

It would mean that taking anything except Battleline units would be a waste of time. Meanwhile, everything in 40K Scores. Troops do it better, of course (usually), and that encourages Troops-on-Troops combat over Objectives if you can't steamroll the unit in one turn...But if you can, you Score. Because everything in 40K Scores, and units that don't Score, are generally never, ever taken, unless you're trying to go for Tablings (e.g; Flyrant).

Everything Scores. It's a good thing. I promise.

[Drasius]

Had a look at the generals handbook today.
Had a look at the skaven portion of the chaos codex.
Wrote a 1000 point list.
Sighed and put away any thoughs of playing AoS until they next revise the skaven portion of the chaos 'dex.

[Requizen]

Had a look at the generals handbook today.
Had a look at the skaven portion of the chaos codex.
Wrote a 1000 point list.
Sighed and put away any thoughs of playing AoS until they next revise the skaven portion of the chaos 'dex.

I haven't looked at Skaven that much, what's wrong with them?
I'm guessing they've made the rules for the newer models really good and all the older stuff is middling to bad, which is pretty normal for GW.

[Drasius]

I haven't looked at Skaven that much, what's wrong with them?
I'm guessing they've made the rules for the newer models really good and all the older stuff is middling to bad, which is pretty normal for GW.

Unless you've got stormfiends and hellpits, you might as well not bother (though if you do have stormfiends, they're troops for clan skryre). I have neither of those, nor any desire to collect them. WLC's are junk compared to other cannons, weapons teams will die to the first ranged unit that looks at them while outputting crappy damage for anyone that's not a ratling gun, clanrats are never going to do anything but die in droves since they're not outputting any damage even in big blobs since only the guys in b2b can attack and even 15 attacks at 4+/3+ with no rend is only 5 wounds before armour saves. Stormvermin can do some work, but not at 140 points for 10. The characters are mostly sub-par and are generally going to fold hard to anything that looks at them while being fairly meh at outputting some minor damage in the magic phase and most have underwhelming special abilities if any at all. Thanquol is pretty good for 500 points, but again, I don't own him and am not interested in getting one either.

Basically, big hoards of skaven aren't really a thing and it's monstrous infantry and big creatures or nothing. Same as 40k. As someone who has ~200 rats, 40 stormies, a warlord, BSB, Seer, couple of warplocks, handful of giant rats, pair of WLC's and a doomwheel, the only things that are remotely useful is the warlord and the giant rats, neither of which gels well with how I'd like to seem my army (cool skryre toys backing up hoards of rats). I liked 8th for the handful of games that I played since what I liked = what was good (or at least not terrible). Now what I like = what is terrible and I'm not going to buy models I don't like to stand a remote chance in a system I'm not enthused about. I won't do it for 40k and I won't do it here.

Maybe I'm wrong and there's some amazing combo that I missed beyond handing out an attack bonus to units within 8" of a warlord, but compared to most other armies, there's very little synergy between the various units with only a few strong choice holding the faction together. It seems like 6th ed CSM all over again with stormfiends and Abombs propping things up instead of heldrakes and obliterators. Maybe I'll go check some of the usual skaven haunts like the undercity or see if some of my favourite old fantasy batrep chanels have got something interesting over the next few weeks, but after a first pass, I suspect I'm wasting my time unless I buy a new army full of models I don't like.

[Cheesegear]

Basically, big hoards of skaven aren't really a thing and it's monstrous infantry and big creatures or nothing.

So, it's Tyranids. Battleline units (Clanrats) don't really do anything and only exist to fill slots and pad points, while the heavy lifting is done by big stuff. Same as Goblins Grots.


Maybe I'm wrong and there's some amazing combo that I missed beyond handing out an attack bonus to units within 8" of a warlord

There are, but not with the models you have.

[Eldan]

Thing is, if I wanted to play mainly monstrous infantry, I would have collected ogres all these years. I like my hordes of crapy infantry. Major reason I never considered AoS worth my time.

[Drasius]

So, it's Tyranids. Battleline units (Clanrats) don't really do anything and only exist to fill slots and pad points, while the heavy lifting is done by big stuff. Same as Goblins Grots.

There are, but not with the models you have.

That would be a more apt analogy, and is also the reaons I don't play 'Nids, as I'd want one or 2 big monsters, a decent unit of warriors, a venomthrope or 2 and swarms of infantry. But that's not 4 flyrants and a bunch of mawlocs so there's not much point.

What's the go to combo then Cheese? IIRC, the only thing I remember being decent was the Pestilens guys with some stacking, same as they used to be in 8th. In fact, much of the skaven entries play exactly like they did in 8th without any of the toys (doomrocket/brass orb/howling warpgale/stormbanner/frenzy/plague/dreaded 13th/cracks call/doomblade etc) that let them function.


Thing is, if I wanted to play mainly monstrous infantry, I would have collected ogres all these years. I like my hordes of crapy infantry. Major reason I never considered AoS worth my time.

If Clan Moulder was your thing then you'd be set. Stormfiends, Rat Ogres, Hellpits (Oh my!) all let you play monstrous infantry/MC's. Pestilens gets their own book (and since they're pseudo Nurgle, some of the best rules of course) while Clan Eshin gets the shaft, same as always.

[Cheesegear]

What's the go to combo then Cheese?

I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. Like most people, I'm new to AoS. :smallwink:
But I remember flicking through the Open Copies in store, having a look at Chaos, and the resident Skaven Monster Race Anything-except-Elves-and-Humans player was describing what the good units were.

I can tell you straight up that the Verminlord made an appearance. From my experience, 'Hero' models evaporate fairly quickly. One of the rules of the game, or, rather, a rule that isn't in the game, is that Heroes/Characters can't or don't join units. Which means they can be singled out via magic or shooting really easily. Nearly all Generals in AoS rather need to be of the 'back-line' variety, and any front-line General needs to either have a poop-ton of Wounds and/or a good save - otherwise they die immediately in the first two turns.

Skaven have some good back line Generals, and they have Leader Behemoths in the form of Verminlords. Same as in 40K, one Behemoth gets singled out immediately, and you really want two Behemoths if you want one. In a fairly dumb move, Verminlords aren't even unique. That said, Skryre doesn't have Verminlords. So I don't know if that's helpful. :smallsigh:
But a good threat to put on the board is the Warp Lightning Cannon. 6 Wounds and a 5+ Save that is increased to 4+ in the Shooting Phase. Meanwhile for 180 Points, Durandin are pulling in a Cannon that only has 3 Crew with 5+ Saves who die immediately if the opponent is close enough.

[Drasius]

But a good threat to put on the board is the Warp Lightning Cannon. 6 Wounds and a 5+ Save that is increased to 4+ in the Shooting Phase. Meanwhile for 180 Points, Durandin are pulling in a Cannon that only has 3 Crew with 5+ Saves who die immediately if the opponent is close enough.

When you math it out, the WLC is less damage (~2.6 wounds against ~2.9 wounds on the Dwarf Cannon), but they're mortal wounds. The dwarf crew are 4+ armour when within 1" of their cannon due to being in cover. Then you've got re-rolls to wound if you're shooting at more than 10 models and re-rolls to hit if you've got a engineer next to it which puts it further ahead. A better comparison would have been the flame cannon. Same range as the WLC, doesn't roll to hit like the WLC, does mortal wounds like the WLC and simply deletes anything you point it at with an engineer next to it. I just hope that the flame cannon is at least a bunch more points, but at the end of the day, ~2.6 wounds a turn for 180 points seems pretty bad, doubly so when the range is short and you've got no defense against deep strikers.

Edit: 200 points? Are you frelling high? That's a complete joke.

[Cheesegear]

The dwarf crew are 4+ armour when within 1" of their cannon due to being in cover.

The difference is that the crew have 3 Wounds. It's not enough, unless you're bringing two or something.


Then you've got re-rolls to wound if you're shooting at more than 10 models

If you aren't using Cannons to shoot at Behemoths, you're using them wrong.


and re-rolls to hit if you've got a engineer next to it which puts it further ahead.

The Engineer costs more points (80) or Cogsmith (100), and the Cannons immediately get shafted when the model with 5+ Armour dies. Which he should. Your opponent is going to focus down that Engineer something fierce, if they know what they're doing.


A better comparison would have been the flame cannon.

Flame Cannon is OOP, and in the 'Legacy' rules. It's on its way out.


Edit: 200 points? Are you frelling high? That's a complete joke.

Like I said, OOP. I wouldn't be so sure that anyone even has one unless they were already playing Dwarfs from before. I was playing Dwarfs since 5th (?) and I don't even have one.

[Drasius]

The difference is that the crew have 3 Wounds. It's not enough, unless you're bringing two or something.

The Engineer costs more points (80) or Cogsmith (100), and the Cannons immediately get shafted when the model with 5+ Armour dies. Which he should. Your opponent is going to focus down that Engineer something fierce, if they know what they're doing.

I wouldn't be so sure that anyone even has one unless they were already playing Dwarfs from before. I was playing Dwarfs since 5th (?) and I don't even have one.

You have to bring a Leader anyway, so their cost isn't really that important and if he's hanging at the back with the cannons, he's not going to get mulched.

All 3 people who play dwarves up here have at least 2 of each type of dwarven artillery, minimum. Everyone has multiple flame cannons, so I just assumed that was standard proceedure.

Regardless, I'm going to maintain that hoarde armies suck until shown otherwise, so I'll try and stop raining on everyone's parade with my complaints.

[Cheesegear]

You have to bring a Leader anyway

For a General? Sure. But an Engineer shouldn't be your General.
If you're going to roll Legacy Dwarfs (because you're using Flame Cannons), Thorek Ironbrow (a.k.a. The Anvil of Doom) and Kraggi are going to be your default Leaders. Thorek has 8 Wounds, is a Dwarf Wizard, and throws out Mortal Wounds that hit on a 2+. He doesn't have a Command ability, but the Dwarf ones aren't even good, so it's not like you lose a whole lot.

If you don't have an Anvil, then I guess Grimm Burloksson is the next best Leader, since he'll give you 30" Thunderers.


so their cost isn't really that important and if he's hanging at the back with the cannons, he's not going to get mulched.

Someone hasn't heard of Chameleon Skinks, or Gutter Runners, or Assassins, or any 'Infiltrating' unit with Ranged attacks. Heroes can't join units. Any ranged attacks directed their way, hits them. Even if they're apparently surrounded 3-deep on all sides by other models. Only an Arillery's crew get a Cover bonus from their piece, and Engineer is not crew.

Currently Dwarf Miners are illegal because they don't have points costs. But, Day 1 Errata is already confirmed on TGH. But, as long as they aren't like, 100 Points for 5, I'll be taking Miners.


Regardless, I'm going to maintain that hoarde armies suck until shown otherwise, so I'll try and stop raining on everyone's parade with my complaints.

From what I'm looking at (the App), Clanrats have a 6+ Save and Bravery 4. Garbage. Same as Grots.
But Ork Boyz aren't good. Termagants aren't good. The 'horde' part of a horde army is rarely what makes it effective. What makes a horde army effective is that main units are cheap as dirt, while the big stuff is generally supposed to be where the power is, and costs a bit extra. Which is fine, because the 'mandatory' units that suck that you have to take, are cheap.

[Eldan]

That's not what I mean by a horde army. I remember the times when Skaven and Gobbos could win by pure mass, having more bodies than the enemy could kill. I miss those times. Except I still have them in ninth age.

[Cheesegear]

That's not what I mean by a horde army. I remember the times when Skaven and Gobbos could win by pure mass, having more bodies than the enemy could kill.

I think the way to do it in AoS, would be instead of one unit of 40 Clanrats, you'd have four units of 10, and then just more units of 10. Clanrats with their amazing Bravery 4, are going to fold like paper to Battleshock alone, and the way to mitigate that would be to have your casualties spread out into multiple units, where some units might be completely ignored altogether. So long as your horde unit is Battleline or [Blank], you can have as many of them as you want.

If you have a massive unit of 40, and your opponent focuses them down, and you lose, say, 12 in one turn. Roll a D6, you get 4, which means you then lose another 12 models all off the one unit. It would need playtesting, for certain, but I'm convinced that units over 20 models - regardless of what they are - are not good. That doesn't mean that you couldn't just spam units of 10-20 models, if they're cheap enough. Which Clanrats are.

MSU is probably how people will end up winning AoS. I'm sure of it.

[Erloas]

It seems like they are doubling down on the base ideas for the game with the handbook. It is just unfortunate that the base ideas for AoS are almost completely contradictory to what most people liked about WHFB. If you actually liked WHFB and want a game like that then there is nothing at all to like in AoS. If you wanted a completely different game that just uses the WHFB models, then AoS might be a reasonable game.

The thing is I've always liked WHFB a lot more than 40k. Much of what I didn't like about 40k has just gotten worse in 40k, and many of those "bad" ideas have been carried over to AoS. Many of what I thought made WHFB a better game than 40k has been taken out completely.

And at this point I could never see myself going back to GW for anything. Their prices have always been rather insane and while they have stopped getting worse lately, that is hardly a ringing enforcement of their future direction. There are game mechanics in other games I like a lot more, there is better background worlds. The only thing GW games had going for them is a solid player base, but my local TT gaming community has been dead for years now and any game I end up playing with be with just one or two other people, so I may as well play the games that are the most fun (I only ever played 40k because it was that or nothing for ~4 years). And at this point if I move again it will probably be to a big enough urban area that I can find games in any system I want. There isn't even any GW models that I absolutely love any more. So much of what I actually liked hasn't changed in a long time and most everything they've been releasing lately I've found completely unappealing (Sigmarines) or over the top and basically turned up to 11 and missing all the charm and character they used to have.

[Requizen]

It seems like they are doubling down on the base ideas for the game with the handbook. It is just unfortunate that the base ideas for AoS are almost completely contradictory to what most people liked about WHFB. If you actually liked WHFB and want a game like that then there is nothing at all to like in AoS. If you wanted a completely different game that just uses the WHFB models, then AoS might be a reasonable game.

The thing is I've always liked WHFB a lot more than 40k. Much of what I didn't like about 40k has just gotten worse in 40k, and many of those "bad" ideas have been carried over to AoS. Many of what I thought made WHFB a better game than 40k has been taken out completely.

Well yeah, they basically went forward and made AoS more like 40k than WHFB. For some people who like the ranks and flanking and stuff, that's the worst thing they could have done, for others, it's great. I honestly don't expect every tabletop player to feel the same about every game, different games appeal to different people, and I totally understand why people are driven away with bad feelings about GW and the game in general. But, I'm happy to see that a lot of WHFB people have found a new home in 9th Age or Kings of War, they sound like great systems if you like that sort of game!



ION: The guy I sold my Daemons to wants to return them (he hasn't paid yet but he's a good friend so I was ok with him using the models), and I think rather than finding another buyer, I might use them in AoS for a while. I sold them because I really hate Deathstar in 40k and that's basically the only way to play them outside of casual, but I think they might be pretty fun and solid in AoS.

I do still want to do Order at some point, but this would be a quick way to get started and have fun with models that I really liked before (like my legendary GUO, Brick).

[LCP]

For some people who like the ranks and flanking and stuff, that's the worst thing they could have done, for others, it's great.

At some level though you do have to acknowledge that the first group are pretty much 100% of the people who already owned models for the game - who sank a lot of time, money and energy into building their collections, and who at this point still seem to heavily outnumber the new converts. It's not just a case of "I like A, you like B", it's "you owned A, I like B, A is now B, enjoy your B!". The sense of betrayal is pretty real; 9th Age is a direct product of that feeling, not a value-neutral market competitor. I would say it's a better-written and better-balanced game than WFB 8th edition and I think most people would agree (presentation and production values aside), but you can bet that if the writers had tried doing it before the launch of AoS it would have sunk without a trace.

Speaking from my personal point of view, I put some significant amount of time into helping and promoting the 9th Age project, because it's the only way to preserve the hobby I enjoy - but it's not like that hobby can just carry on regardless of what GW does. The tournament scene in the UK has halved pretty much purely out of skepticism about the game's future - 9th Age has kept it from collapsing but people are rightly skeptical about whether a volunteer project with limited model support from small companies can survive in the long term. AoS really did take something away from me and the sour grapes aren't going to start tasting better any time soon.

[Requizen]

At some level though you do have to acknowledge that the first group are pretty much 100% of the people who already owned models for the game - who sank a lot of time, money and energy into building their collections, and who at this point still seem to heavily outnumber the new converts. It's not just a case of "I like A, you like B", it's "you owned A, I like B, A is now B, enjoy your B!". The sense of betrayal is pretty real; 9th Age is a direct product of that feeling, not a value-neutral market competitor. I would say it's a better-written and better-balanced game than WFB 8th edition and I think most people would agree (presentation and production values aside), but you can bet that if the writers had tried doing it before the launch of AoS it would have sunk without a trace.

Speaking from my personal point of view, I put some significant amount of time into helping and promoting the 9th Age project, because it's the only way to preserve the hobby I enjoy - but it's not like that hobby can just carry on regardless of what GW does. The tournament scene in the UK has halved pretty much purely out of skepticism about the game's future - 9th Age has kept it from collapsing but people are rightly skeptical about whether a volunteer project with limited model support from small companies can survive in the long term. AoS really did take something away from me and the sour grapes aren't going to start tasting better any time soon.

Oh, I totally understand that. The move GW made was a terrible one - screw over a huge playerbase to create a new system that's very different in order to appeal to different players. That's one that nobody should make, especially ones that are worried about their bottom line. I'll always understand WHFB players who hate GW for this, it's totally reasonable and anyone telling them to get over it and move on is really missing the point. Some WHFB players will enjoy the change, many have made the switch. Others won't, and it's in no one's hand to force them to.

[Drasius]

If you have a massive unit of 40, and your opponent focuses them down, and you lose, say, 12 in one turn. Roll a D6, you get 4, which means you then lose another 12 models all off the one unit. It would need playtesting, for certain, but I'm convinced that units over 20 models - regardless of what they are - are not good. That doesn't mean that you couldn't just spam units of 10-20 models, if they're cheap enough. Which Clanrats are.

Units with more than 10 models get +1 bravery for every 10 additional models IIRC, and Skaven units double this bonus, so a unit of 40 would be bravery 10, a unit of 30 would be bravery 8. But yeah, you'd either need 10 models or 40, but even having 8 units of 10 isn't going to accomlish anything since they'll be annihilated the instant anyone looks at them and they're not going to last for 5/6 turns to cap objectives. If it worked like maelstrom, then yeah, a boatload of small units would do great.

[Cheesegear]

Units with more than 10 models get +1 bravery for every 10 additional models IIRC, and Skaven units double this bonus

+1 Bravery for every 10, not sure where you got the double bonus if you're Skaven, though. I think you might be referring to a specific unit, and applying to all Skaven units, maybe?
But I don't know what that unit is, because it isn't Clanrats.

[Drasius]

+1 Bravery for every 10, not sure where you got the double bonus if you're Skaven, though. I think you might be referring to a specific unit, and applying to all Skaven units, maybe?
But I don't know what that unit is, because it isn't Clanrats.

It's from a formation bonus. I was clearly misremembering and thought that basic units might have a use. My mistake.

[Requizen]

So I think the plan is to use my Daemons to start, decide if I want to keep them or start Order after a while. Chaos also has some expansion options that interest me, like Skaven shooting to support or Slaves to Darkness for the amazing Chaos Knights and characters they offer.

The nice thing about this situation is that it lets me get started quickly at any point size, though I'm not sure about my effectiveness. How does this look for 1000 points:

Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
Pink Horrors
Pink Horrors
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
Flamers of Tzeentch
Seekers of Slaanesh x10
1000/1000

Not very strong in melee, but pretty solid casting and shooting. Seekers are amazing in melee, so I can use them as a flanking/hunting unit for the things I need dead.

Alternatively, Nurgle focused:

Great Unclean One
Plaguebearers
Plaguebearers
Plague Drones
Burning Chariot of Tzeentch
820/1000

Burning Chariot is just too good to pass up even in a theme list. Seriously, just look at the profile. Nurgle is a bit better in melee, but mostly is just stupid hard to kill. Points left gives me room for either a Daemon Prince, 3 Spawn (either individual or separate units), the 10 Seekers, or a unit of Horrors. Heck, with the way Summoning works in Pitched Battles, I could even just leave it open for such an occasion.

What do you think, how would these lists hold up as starting points? Our group is probably going to start at 1000 points as people build up their armies, so I expect to be at this level for a while.

[Cheesegear]

Just got rocked by Destruction (Urruks). First game I won on Victory Points, second game I was tabled on Turn 3.
Their Faction Trait, is anything within X" (I forget) of a Destruction Hero, can move D6" in the Hero Phase, this does not affect any of their other actions that turn.

This means that Destruction Wizards are Eldar.
- Stand behind LoS blocking terrain.
- In Hero Phase, move D6" inches.
- In Hero Phase, cast Magic spells (Urruks prefer Foot of Gork, and it is amazing)
- In Movement Phase, move back behind the LoS Blocker.

Also, Missions (that I remember)
1. 2 Objectives on the board. If, at any time, you control both of them (with 5 or more models), you win. End the game. If nobody has won by Turn 5, go to Victory Points.
2. 4 Objectives on the board. Starting from Turn 3, if you control all of them (with the most models), you win. End the game. If nobody has won by Turn 5, whoever has the most Objectives wins. If neither player wins, go to Victory Points.
???
4. 4 Objectives. At the end of the game (Turn 5), the Objective in your opponent's DZ is worth 4 Points, the Objective in your DZ is worth 1 Point, and the two Objectives in the middle are worth two Points each. You control an Objective by having the most models in range - 6".
5. 3 Objectives. Only Heroes can Score. You earn points cumulatively for each turn that your Hero ends your turn on an Objective.
e.g; 1 Turn = 1 Points, 2 Turns = 1+2 Points, 3 Turns = 1+2+3 Points, etc. Noting that the instant your Hero leaves the Objective, you start again, even if the same Hero can somehow leave the Objective and manage to make it back on in the same turn (e.g; Destruction Battle Trait)
???

I think. I maybe have the Mission numbers wrong, but those are what I remember.
Victory Points are the amount of points your opponent's dead models are worth. 'Making Points Back' is still a thing in AoS. :smallsigh:

The game is very, very Objective focused. Basically, some Missions read "If you can Score Domination, win the game." which is basically how 40K may as well be. If I'm Scoring Domination, my opponent has done something catastrophically wrong, and the game may as well be over. For better or worse.

[Requizen]

What army were you running? I do hear very strong things about Orruks, but I think it'll be a while before we start to get a good idea of what armies are great and which are weak. Across different sites, I've heard that all of the following were OP: Orruks, Seraphon, Stormcast Eternals, Tzeentch Daemons focusing on casting and shooting, Ogres, Death mix with mass buffs and Heroes, Brettonians, High Elves (especially legacy units), Dwarven Artillery, Skaven with as much Ranged damage as possible, and the new Sylvaneth. Which is like half the armies in the game.

[Cheesegear]

What army were you running?

Dwarfs. With a Celestial Hurricanum.


but I think it'll be a while before we start to get a good idea of what armies are great and which are weak.

The book has been in Open Copy for almost two weeks. That's how long it took. Unless the Day 1 Errata changes things, I already know how the meta is going to play out.
Looking at the Missions, you can clearly see that the game is fairly Objective based, with auto-win conditions for most of them. You need to be fast, to get to those Objectives early, and you need a lot of models, in order to hold Objectives. Some you need five models on the Objective, some Missions, the Objective is controlled by whomever has the most models within 6". Your opponent can be sitting pretty on the Objective with six models, but if you rock up with 7, you get it.

Speed. Destruction has this is in spades. Pretty much every model they own gets an extra D6" movement for free. Speed is great for Objective-grabbing, but it's also really good for getting units into combat as early as possible, and, in Destruction, a lot of their units (e.g; Ogors, Urruks) are built for Melee. What is literally ruining my games right now, is that Dwarf Miners don't have a points cost. The global campaign has just started, and without Miners, Dwarfs are slow as balls. It's crippling me. Imagine if my units had the same armour saves, but better movement? Wouldn't that be great? ...Oh, hi Seraphon.

Since I can't move a whole lot, it falls down to Artillery (and the Anvil) to get it done. I'm not even trying to play the Mission, and I'm instead going for Victory Points. It sucks, but until Miners get legal, I have no other choice.
One of my friends suggested Gyrocopters, but then I pointed out that they're units of of one model, and that was that... That said, I have just bought myself a Steam Tank.


I think what's really going to be interesting that nobody should be playing a single race. They should be playing their Faction. That is, I shouldn't say that I play 'Dwarfs', I should say that I play 'Order', and buy myself a Celestial Hurricanum (did it), Steam Tank (did it) and probably a Mage-on-Griffon, and have my Battleline units be Longbeards or something. 'Playing Dwarfs and Dwarfs only' is not how the meta is going to go.

[Drasius]

I think what's really going to be interesting that nobody should be playing a single race. They should be playing their Faction. That is, I shouldn't say that I play 'Dwarfs', I should say that I play 'Order', and buy myself a Celestial Hurricanum (did it), Steam Tank (did it) and probably a Mage-on-Griffon, and have my Battleline units be Longbeards or something. 'Playing Dwarfs and Dwarfs only' is not how the meta is going to go.

"I should cherry pick the best units out of the other battle brother codecies". Ah, the 40kification (fortification? No, wait, that's already a word!) of AoS, oh the irony is strong. Now you too can enjoy a horrible mis-mash of random stuff that doesn't belong within earshot of the other random stuff that makes up an army. Welcome to 6th ed 40k AoS 2.0

[Requizen]

Funny, I've heard gunlines are the things dominating a lot of places right now, just killing everything off before scoring becomes an issue. I honestly think the "global meta" or whatever will still take a bit of time to cool down.

Didn't get a game in today but going to an actual GW tomorrow to see if anyone is playing there. The one near me has actually posted results, so I assume people there are getting games in. I guess I could just hang around for a while and see.

[Drasius]

Funny, I've heard gunlines are the things dominating a lot of places right now, just killing everything off before scoring becomes an issue. I honestly think the "global meta" or whatever will still take a bit of time to cool down.

Didn't get a game in today but going to an actual GW tomorrow to see if anyone is playing there. The one near me has actually posted results, so I assume people there are getting games in. I guess I could just hang around for a while and see.

Our store is right into it as expected. I'm going to try and paint enough units to win without playing a single game. Thankfully, I bought enough skaven for a 2500 army at the tail end of 8th and only have ~40 clannies painted, so I'm good to go without actually buying anything. Already got 2 units of giant rats done, 2 units of clannies 70% done, a pair of weappons teams 50% done and a BSB ~30% done in a day. I think I've got this. Apparently 1 win = 1 point, every 5 wins gets you 5 bonus points. Same deal with painting, 1 warscroll = 1 point, paint 5 warscrolls, get 5 bonus points and GW stores have prizes for most points for every store.

If I knock out 2 units of giant rats, 4 units of Clanrats, 4 units of stormvermin, 3 weapons teams, a BSB, a pair of warlords, a trio of warplocks and a grey seer, that's 20 warscrolls, so 40 points. 20 AoS wins might be a tough ask, but so is ~100 models. I think I can do it though. Funny, I'm usually a rediculously slow painter, but I'm getting through these skaven and a decent clip and really enjoying it too (so far...). Definately a nice change.

[Requizen]

Played my first game last night! Would have preferred a 1v1 for my first one, but the GW near me is really small and the one table that was open had 6 people wanting to play, so 3v3 it was. Skaven/Skaven/Daemons(me) vs Dark Elves/Sylvaneth/Death. We played a mission where the objectives are meteors that fall on each players' turn 2 and are progressive. Both ended up falling on one side of the table, and the mobility of my Flamers and Burning Chariot helped thin out their troops on that side. The GUO ended up sloughing through lots of things - Black Knights, Skeletons, casting Mortal Wounds onto the Treelord and Spirit of Durthu, and then eventually charging the lone Sorceress in the backline to claim their objective. Dude was a boss, and they didn't even attack him because 10W/4+(3+ with Mystic Shield)/5++ with self healing is really annoying to even think about hurting. The blackshirt counted it as 3 wins for Chaos, since if the other side won, he would have had to do 2 Order/1 Death victory. Tying our store between Chaos and Order!

I really enjoyed it! The game just runs really smoothly. Got me thinking about the next thing I'd like to add to my army. I don't think I want to add too many Skaven to my forces (I don't like painting horde units), but I think I may pick up a Plagueclaw or two, those things did work against big units. And, since it's Nurgle, it combos with Epidemius, one of the best darn force multipliers in the game. Alternatively, I think I'd like to pick up a big "centerpiece" unit. The GUO does it alright, and I also have 2 Princes, Be'lakor, and Fateweaver, but nothing big and nasty like the Dreadlord on Dragon we faced or the Treelord/Durthu they had either. Maybe a Mutalith Vortex Beast, one of the Maggoths, or a Manticore Chaos Lord.

[Cheesegear]

The game just runs really smoothly.

It's always run smoothly. It's always been a good game (albeit simplistic). The problem has been that there were no checks and balances. If I wanted to take five Cannons, I could take five Cannons. If someone brought out Nagash and wanted to Summon eleventy billion Skeletons, they could. Now they can't, and the game is worth playing. Because it's now fair. Or, at least, more fair than it was.

Now that slots and points are involved, people can - and will (I know I have) - start talking about efficiency-for-points, meta-gaming, and 'best-in-slot'. Hence why I said 'more fair'. The game is far from perfect, but with the proper checks and balances, we now know what is 'best', or, at the very least, we know what's bad.


Alternatively, I think I'd like to pick up a big "centerpiece" unit. The GUO does it alright...

Is your GUO the Glottkin model? I like that one a lot.

[Requizen]

Is your GUO the Glottkin model? I like that one a lot.

No, I've got an old school metal GUO. I love it, but it's a bit on the small side, especially when others use the big ol' FW one. I do like the Glottkin though, and his rules are actually pretty solid. He's a bit point-heavy for middling point games, but cheaper than the Archaon/Everqueen/Nagash level.

Hoping to get another game in tomorrow after work, we'll how the schedule goes. Different store, hoping to get some points on the board for Chaos.

[Cheesegear]

Got rolled again, by another extremely fast army.

Slaves to Darkness
(G) Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - 140 Points

Marauders (x10); Axes, Shields, Tribal Banner - 60 Points
Chaos Knights (x5); Ensorcelled Weapons - 200 Points
Chaos Knights (x5); Chaos Glaives - 200 Points
Chaos Knights (x5); Chaos Glaives - 200 Points

Marauder Horsemen (x5); Javelins, Tribal Banner - 100 Points
Marauder Horsemen (x5); Javelins, Tribal Banner - 100 Points

Total: 1000 Points

His Lord chose Tzeentch during Deployment, to give himself re-rolls to Saves.

[Requizen]

Got rolled again, by another extremely fast army.

Slaves to Darkness
(G) Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - 140 Points

Marauders (x10); Axes, Shields, Tribal Banner - 60 Points
Chaos Knights (x5); Ensorcelled Weapons - 200 Points
Chaos Knights (x5); Chaos Glaives - 200 Points
Chaos Knights (x5); Chaos Glaives - 200 Points

Marauder Horsemen (x5); Javelins, Tribal Banner - 100 Points
Marauder Horsemen (x5); Javelins, Tribal Banner - 100 Points

Total: 1000 Points

His Lord chose Tzeentch during Deployment, to give himself re-rolls to Saves.
That's the sort of Mortal Chaos army I'd like to collect lol. I love cavalry, and the Chaos Knights models are fantastic. And the Mount Lord is a great option, relatively cheap compared to Behemoth leaders but still tough as nails and killy as anything.

How did the Javelin Marauder Horsemen work out? They seem like a really solid harassment unit, but squishy and poor Bravery.

[Cheesegear]

More lessons learned;

Multiple more-than-minimum-sized units, aren't really worth it, unless you're going for specific bonuses, or plan on bonus-stacking.

For example, if you have a unit that gains a bonus when it reaches 20+ models, yeah, it's worth reaching that 20+ model unit size. If you need +1 Bravery (or +2 if you're Skaven in what is basically a mandatory Formation) for every ten models, then yes, it's worth having a higher model count. If you plan to stack bonuses (re-rolls to Wound, +1 Save, extra attack, etc.), then, having the most number of models affected is arguably a better use of the buff.

However, if you don't gain a discernible bonus by having more than the minimum unit size, or you don't feel like 'bonus stacking' is worth it because Mortal Wounds don't allow saves, and as good as your Death Star is, they can just die as easily as anything else, then yes; It actually is better going MSU.

This is most obviously seen on unit Champions, Banners and Musicians. In quite a number of cases, these things actually provide huge buffs to the unit (especially Banners). If you buy the minimum 10 models for your unit, you get a Champion, Banner and Musician for free. Job's good. However, if you buy another ten models for the unit - and you don't need +1 Bravery, and you don't get a bonus for having 20+ models, etc. - you're still paying the original price, but you aren't getting those free Champions, Musicians and Banners again, are you? But you're still paying the same price. Even if your Champion's only ability is to have +1 Attack, that's still one attack you lose on what could have been a second unit that costs exactly the same amount of points.

For a good example of what I'm talking about; Blood Knights. In each Hero Phase, the unit brings back one model up to however many it started the game with. Yes, these can be Champions and Musicians - the Standard Bearer always dies last in a unit of Blood Knights. If you have one unit of 10 Blood Knights, and your opponent kills two of them, you get one model back, per the rules, obviously. If you have two units of 5, you now have two Banners, which means you now get potentially two models back per turn, instead of just one. Same number of models, same points cost. But better on the table.
Noting that Undead are Bravery 10. To get them to take a Battleshock Test at all, you'd need to remove 5 models, if you remove five models from a five-model unit, they're not taking a Battleshock Test. :smallwink:

[Drasius]

More lessons learned;

Multiple more-than-minimum-sized units, aren't really worth it, unless you're going for specific bonuses, or plan on bonus-stacking.

For example, if you have a unit that gains a bonus when it reaches 20+ models, yeah, it's worth reaching that 20+ model unit size. If you need +1 Bravery (or +2 if you're Skaven in what is basically a mandatory Formation) for every ten models, then yes, it's worth having a higher model count. If you plan to stack bonuses (re-rolls to Wound, +1 Save, extra attack, etc.), then, having the most number of models affected is arguably a better use of the buff.

However, if you don't gain a discernible bonus by having more than the minimum unit size, or you don't feel like 'bonus stacking' is worth it because Mortal Wounds don't allow saves, and as good as your Death Star is, they can just die as easily as anything else, then yes; It actually is better going MSU.

This is most obviously seen on unit Champions, Banners and Musicians. In quite a number of cases, these things actually provide huge buffs to the unit (especially Banners). If you buy the minimum 10 models for your unit, you get a Champion, Banner and Musician for free. Job's good. However, if you buy another ten models for the unit - and you don't need +1 Bravery, and you don't get a bonus for having 20+ models, etc. - you're still paying the original price, but you aren't getting those free Champions, Musicians and Banners again, are you? But you're still paying the same price. Even if your Champion's only ability is to have +1 Attack, that's still one attack you lose on what could have been a second unit that costs exactly the same amount of points.

For a good example of what I'm talking about; Blood Knights. In each Hero Phase, the unit brings back one model up to however many it started the game with. Yes, these can be Champions and Musicians - the Standard Bearer always dies last in a unit of Blood Knights. If you have one unit of 10 Blood Knights, and your opponent kills two of them, you get one model back, per the rules, obviously. If you have two units of 5, you now have two Banners, which means you now get potentially two models back per turn, instead of just one. Same number of models, same points cost. But better on the table.
Noting that Undead are Bravery 10. To get them to take a Battleshock Test at all, you'd need to remove 5 models, if you remove five models from a five-model unit, they're not taking a Battleshock Test. :smallwink:

Our store had a notable game today. Pair of Sigmarine heros and a unit of 8 Dracothian guard vs Manfred, 5 blood knights, 5 black knights and 6 spirit hosts and a Varghulf? Vargeist? The big one, not the unit(IIRC). The Dracothian guard got tabled in exchange for the spirit hosts. The Blood Knight player was outraged that the DG guys healed a wound on saves of 6, meanwhile, he's healing guys every turn and putting blood knights back on the table every turn for free. Lulzy.

Current reigning champ is an Empire army that'd make Nuln proud. Helblaster, Rocket Battery, 30ish riflemen, 3 snipers, a steam tank and a master engineer and a griff hound in 1k. Has easily tabled virtually everyone he's faced. It's basically a tau gunline, interceptor and everything, that can shoot into and out of combat, in AoS.

[Requizen]

First things first: FW points for Matched Play (https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/aos_matched_play_points.pdf). As expected from FW, lots of things that are really powerful but also really heavy on points. Mourngul costs more than more than a Celestant-Prime, only 100 points shy of a Stardrake. If I stick with Chaos, may be picking up a nice big nasty thing from FW.


This is most obviously seen on unit Champions, Banners and Musicians. In quite a number of cases, these things actually provide huge buffs to the unit (especially Banners). If you buy the minimum 10 models for your unit, you get a Champion, Banner and Musician for free. Job's good. However, if you buy another ten models for the unit - and you don't need +1 Bravery, and you don't get a bonus for having 20+ models, etc. - you're still paying the original price, but you aren't getting those free Champions, Musicians and Banners again, are you? But you're still paying the same price. Even if your Champion's only ability is to have +1 Attack, that's still one attack you lose on what could have been a second unit that costs exactly the same amount of points.
Agreed, spreading out bonuses is super good. There are some horde units (Skellies, Zombies, Grots) that stack up bonuses quick, but I feel like most infantry don't care too much.

Here's something interesting/stupid: You can technically make every dude in a unit a Banner Bearer/Musician. GW specifically said they don't lose the weapon they're holding, so you can end up with a bunch of people who buff the unit. Buffs don't stack, but it basically makes it impossible to lose the bonus (unlike me, who charged Seekers through Deadly Terrain and lost the Icon. Yeah.)

Noting that Undead are Bravery 10. To get them to take a Battleshock Test at all, you'd need to remove 5 models, if you remove five models from a five-model unit, they're not taking a Battleshock Test. :smallwink:
Daemons are the same, but you end up liking to take the Battleshock test anyway because on a 1 you get dudes back. Reality Blinking = opponents cringing.

Current reigning champ is an Empire army that'd make Nuln proud. Helblaster, Rocket Battery, 30ish riflemen, 3 snipers, a steam tank and a master engineer and a griff hound in 1k. Has easily tabled virtually everyone he's faced. It's basically a tau gunline, interceptor and everything, that can shoot into and out of combat, in AoS.
Empire/Freeguilds sounds like one of the strongest armies at the moment. Handgunners are an insanely good Battleline unit - relatively cheap, can shoot and fight and then shoot in combat next turn, easy to buff their Bravery with any nearby Heroes. One of the store people will be playing them next week and I'm pretty terrified for it.


Speaking of which, I played my first real game last night! Was a good time. Chaos (Daemons) vs Destruction (Orruks, Grots, Ogres, Gargant). We waived the Battleline restriction for him because he didn't know about army construction and Allegiances before he got there and didn't have enough Ironjawz to make 2000 points of them.


Great Unclean One
Be'lakor
Herald of Tzeench, Disc
Plaguebearers
Pink Horrors
Pink Horrors
Plague Drones
Seekers of Slaanesh
Seekers of Slaanesh
Flamers
Flamers
Burning Chariot



Orruk Megaboss
Warchanter
Ardboys (two weapons each)
Ardboys (Great weapons)
Brutes
Gore-Gruntas
Ironguts
Leadbelchers
Grot Warboss
Grot Fanatics
Grots x40
Grot Shaman
Aleguzzler Gargant


The guy with the General's Handbook couldn't make it in (he's a store owner but was out for some reason), so we didn't have any of the missions or anything. We got points off of *ahem* some pictures we found, and then just played the mission off of the 4-page rules, that is, kill points. We also didn't have the pages for Artifacts/Allegiance bonuses, so we skipped on those.

I won the roll for table, so I just picked a standard "Dawn of War" style deployment. We started deploying and I finished first by virtue of less units, choosing to take the first turn.

I moved up centrally for the most part. Plague Drones, Plaguebearers, and GUO screened the Tzeentch stuff. I kept one unit of Seekers out of charge range (so I thought) and the other moved up quickly to charge a unit of Brutes in the back. I love their speed! I cast Shield onto Be'lakor, and everything else was out of range. I got a couple shots off on the Gargant with Flamers/Chariot, but not much stuck. I tried to charge the Brutes, but the Grot Fanatics popped out of the Grot blob and charged first! Unfortunately for me, this means I couldn't get my charge off, but unfortunately for him, the Seekers tore through the Fanatics without a second thought.

He's Destruction, so he just moved/ran everything up. Shaman popped Shield onto the Gargant. Leadbelchers ended up out of range, so not much happened with them. He charged the Seekers with the Brutes, and without the first swing I was in real trouble, but luckily he only removed 2 Seekers and I did a Wound back. Reality did not blink, but I held them up from my more important shooting Tzeentch stuff.

We roll. He gets to go first. I realize my measurements were in vain. Uh oh!

He shields the Gargant again, and then everything runs up a bit. Leadbelchers did all of 1 wound to a Plaguebearer in shooting, and that was it for that phase. The Gargant charged the Drones, Ironguts charged the other Seekers, Gore-Gruntas charged Be'lakor, Grots charged Plaguebearers. Ardboyz try to charge the GUO and fail. Now we're in it! The Brutes from the last time cut down another Seeker and a half. The Gargant kills one Plague Drone, but these guys have 5 attacks each! They do some wounds back, dropping his combat effectiveness next time around. Be'lakor takes a wound but deals back 6 in return! Killing one off and damaging another. Plaguebearers and Grots go about as well as you'd expect - I have less but more durable, he has more but they die like flies. Ironguts kill a Seeker and they kill a dude back in return in a stunning display of not-terrible rolling.

I feel pretty weak after two turns in a row, but he hasn't killed off anything completely yet, so it isn't all bad. I buff up Be'lakor with Shield, pop some Mortal wounds into the Gargant with Bolt, and then move up to do some damage. Burning Chariot kills off the Grot Shaman, stopping the Shield train. First unit of Flamers do some wounds to the Brutes held up by the Seekers, since I'm scared of them coming out. The other ones and a unit of Pink Horrors kill off another Gore Grunta and wound the last one. HoTzeentch misses everything. GUO shoots at the Gargant, taking off another wound with vomit. He then charges the Ardboyz with Greatweapons, while the Pink Horrors charge the remaining Gore-Grunta, preventing him from piling into Be'lakor. He and the Seekers make short work of the Ironguts, while the Gargant kills another Plague Drone, taking a wound in return. Brick, the GUO boss, kills 3 Ardboyz and only takes 2 wounds in return. Brutes finally finish off the Seekers, while the Gore-Grunta kills off a couple Horrors. Plaguebearers and Grots sorta... continue. I do get 2 back as Reality Blinks, though.


We roll. I go first! The Double Turn is a double agent!

I shield the GUO this time, dunno why instead of Be'lakor who really can make more use out of it (he ignores Rends). GUO heals back to full anyway, because reasons. I pop a couple Mortal Wounds into the now-free Brutes who scare me more than they probably should, taking them down to 2 models left. In movement, I fly the Chariot over the Gargant, hoping to get some more MWs on but failing. Flamers jump around, getting into better spots, while Pink Horrors screen them. Seekers Run to get in a better position... and the Icon Bearer dies in Terrain. Poop. I pop a lot of shots into the final Brutes, killing one off and leaving the final one on a single wound. Chariot tries to kill the Megaboss with flames but does nothing as his armor saves it. Other Flamers bring the Gargant down a bit lower. I charge the Gargant with the Chariot, Be'lakor charges the Warboss, and the Seekers charge the Ardboyz with two weapons. I swing Be'lakor first, doing 2 wounds but not much else as the dice go cold on me. He swings the Gargant into the Chariot, hoping for an instagib, but with the weaker profiles and bad dice, nothing happens. The chariot latches on with the Screamers, which do d3 Wounds each and drop it. His Warboss, in another stunning display of dice, murders Be'lakor with a laugh. Should have Shielded him! Gore-Grunta is still tied down with Horrors, Grots and Plaguebearers do nothing but Reality Blinks again, giving me one back. The Seekers trade... unfavorably, but survive.

While killing Be'lakor is big, things are looking pretty grim for him. I'm ahead in kill points (4 at this point) and he only has 2, with low prospects of racking them up. His Warboss moves in to charge the GUO, and his Leadbelcher stays stationary to get the extra shots. The remaining Brute goes for the hail mary charge on some Flamers. Leadbelcher shooting only does 2 shots, sadly, and no wounds. Brute makes it in, though, and kills 2 Flamers. Warboss charges the GUO, but I activate him first and kill the Boss before he does anything, because these guys are actually just awesome in combat. His Chanter charges the Chariot, doing only 1 wound and taking 3 in return. He does kill off the Seekers, though.

I go first for this round. Considering everything except his hiding Grot Warboss and a unit of Ardboyz is in combat, though, I doubt it would have changed much.

GUO heals to full and Shields himself. Herald casts his unique spell, which does no wounds because it's really inconsistent. Flamers and Chariot kill off the Brute and the Chanter, bringing me to 6 KPs. In combat, GUO takes 1 wound and deals 7 to the Ardboyz in return. Reality Blinks on the Plaguebearers and Pink Horrors as well, which was good or bad depending on what side you were on.

We decide to call it as the store is closing. He rolls what we consider the "important rolls", i.e., could he kill off the one Flamer, the Chariot, and the Plaguebearers to tie the game up, and as it turns out, no, the dice said no.

Not Played

6-3 Kill Points. Minor Victory to Chaos this day! We both agree that we each made mistakes, but for our first real AoS game it went well. Fun times were had by all!

-Ironjawz are brutal as all get out in Assault, the only thing that could stand up to them was the GUO.
-I was also way more scared of the Gargant than I should have been, it was definitely scary but a mediocre save means it fell at a reasonable rate.
-He realized too late that he should have clumped up the Ironjawz in a deathball to take advantage of the Megaboss's buffs. It would have been a much different game if he had.
-Always Shield Be'lakor. 3+ ignoring Rends is too good, too good.

Looking forward to the next one! There's Open Play at a nearby store on Sunday so I'll probably swing by to mark that one for Chaos as well.

[Requizen]

General's Handbook gets a FAQ before it comes out. (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Errata/Warhammer_aos_generals_handbook_en.pdf) Must be a record or something :smallbiggrin:

Cheese, Miners are 120 for 10 (does the Mining Cart count as one of the models? I would have to assume so). Seems pretty good for your "Deep Strike" unit that 100% requires response.

[Cheesegear]

Cheese, Miners are 120 for 10

Amazing. I priced them at 140, so, I'm really happy.


(does the Mining Cart count as one of the models? I would have to assume so)

Nope. Because the Mining Cart is optional.


Seems pretty good for your "Deep Strike" unit that 100% requires response.

Not exactly. They have to set up 9" away, and their Shooting attack only has a 6" range, and the 16" Harpoon can't be used if they Moved that turn. It's still better than nothing, since Dwarfs only have a 4" Move, which sucks.

[Cristo Meyers]

So if I were going to, say, build a Sylvaneth/Order based army, what would be a good place to start? I haven't been following AoS at all until, well, right about now when I got curious and pretty much fell in love with the Sylvaneth models I blame you, Rezquizen.

I mean, I know the bare bones of the game, but at a GW price point I'd rather not be buying totally blind.

[Requizen]

Not exactly. They have to set up 9" away, and their Shooting attack only has a 6" range, and the 16" Harpoon can't be used if they Moved that turn. It's still better than nothing, since Dwarfs only have a 4" Move, which sucks.
Yeah, mobility is mobility, for a slow army they're basically invaluable. And at a very reasonable point price!

So if I were going to, say, build a Sylvaneth/Order based army, what would be a good place to start? I haven't been following AoS at all until, well, right about now when I got curious and pretty much fell in love with the Sylvaneth models I blame you, Rezquizen.

I mean, I know the bare bones of the game, but at a GW price point I'd rather not be buying totally blind.

I blame me too. A lot of the Thursday night crowd are going to play at least a little bit, at least during the global event.

Sylvaneth actually are getting easier to start up if you wait a couple weeks, there will be a Start Collecting! box for them, that looks like so. (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-njjc5YC8PZ8/V40iNbJhKOI/AAAAAAAALR0/tBOX3yIZSmgvHYzeYEgnnN-bxMuQqXBuwCLcB/s640/white%2BDwarf%2B130%2Bstart%2Bcollecting%2Bsylvane th.JPG) It comes out to 520/620 depending on what you build the big dude as, but only 1 Battleline (Troops) unit, so you'd end up buying one more unit of Dryads or Tree-Revnants. If you can find a Free Spirit Warhost (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Forest-Spirit-Warhost) around, it's also a good deal if you want those models.

Edit:

Also, points for Silver Tower models if you have them. (http://i.imgur.com/qKYhgUi.jpg) I was thinking of picking up the game anyway, who knows now.

[Drasius]

My cunning plan was revealed today to my store, as I put in 11 points for Chaos, catapulting Chaos from 0 points to winning by 2 (and myself into the lead by1). Fairly happy with how my weapons teams have come out so far, despite the fact that apparently I can't take a decent photo.


http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/Skaven/DSC_1059_zpskaqpxy61.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/Skaven/DSC_1060_zpssu9nunbu.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/Skaven/DSC_1061_zpsajptxzgo.jpg~original
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/Drasius_Rift/Skaven/DSC_1063_zps8eriemwk.jpg~original


I can maybe get another 12-15 points done, and that might be enough to secure the win, but it's going to be close. Got 16x 40k models to paint for oath of moment this month too, but they're almost done, so now it's just concentrating on cranking out more rats.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to the Order Grand Alliance
Part 1; Traits & Stormcast Eternals

Disclaimer; These Guides will not feature any references to Compendium/Legacy units. You can't buy them anymore, so it would be disingenuous to recommend them in any capacity. If you've already got some, then you probably already know how good they are.

Battle Trait: All of your models within 12" of any General or Hero can re-roll Battleshock Tests. While this Trait appears exceptionally good, because Battleshock removes models, regardless of number of Wounds and with no save. If you know what's good for you, you should already be building around not taking Battleshock as few times as possible. You should already be doing this, not to mention the default Command Ability, Inspiring Presence. On paper, this looks like one of the better Battle Traits. In practice, it isn't, because you're Order, and you should already be mitigating Battleshock as much as possible.
As more and more post-TGH Battletomes get released with their own Battle Traits, this Trait will quickly fall by the wayside. Unless you're not actually interested in playing one Faction and one Faction only; Because Grand Alliance. It's in the name.

Command Traits
1. Use two Command Abilities in the same turn. Or Inspiring Presence, twice - see what I mean about the Battle Trait?
2. Re-roll Battleshock within 24" of your General. Or you can simply take more than one Hero and use your Battle Trait like you're supposed to.
3. Units within 10" of your General can re-roll Run and Charge moves. That's more like it.
4. +1 Wound. *vomit*
5. Your General gets +1 Attack with any weapon of his choosing in the combat phase. Better than Battleshock which you do anyway.
6. 6++.

Overall, not a good Table. But, if you're using the Grand Alliance and not a single Battletome, you're already cheesing the poop out of the game anyway. It's not like you'll need an extra Trait to make your army more broken.

Artifacts of Order
Note; Never random roll your Artifacts if you have a choice.
Quicksilver Potion; Once per game, your Hero activates in the combat phase, first. Even if it's not even your turn. This is very good for getting the most out of your Hero with only one Wound left.
Obstinate Blade; Increase the Rend on one of your weapons by 1. Not bad.
Relic Blade; Increase the Damage on your Melee weapon by 1. This is much better.
Hoarfrost; Any model wounded by this weapon gets -1 To Hit for the rest of the game. Neat.
Talisman of Blinding Light; Once per game, in your combat phase, enemies are -1 To Hit against your Hero.
Phoenix Stone; Regenerate a Wound per turn.

Some good ones, some bad ones. All of them have their effectiveness altered by what Hero that they're on, and who they're against. You get one Artifact, and may take an additional Artifact for each Warscroll Battalion in your army. So, if you can find a nice Battalion that you want, you get a second Artifact for free. Nice.

Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Celestant-Prime: 8 Wounds, 3+ Save. Throws out Mortal Wounds like a boss. He isn't set up at Deployment. Instead, he can be held in Reserve, and for each turn he is held in Reserve, he gains +2 Attacks in Melee. Then he does a Superhero Entrance, at least 9" away from enemy models, and all enemy models within 12" of the Prime have -2 Bravery. In fairness, he's a beast in combat doing -3 Rend and 3 Damage per hit. Unfortunately, he's 360 Points and doesn't come with a Command Ability (aside from Inspiring Presence). So, while he's nice to have in larger games, he shouldn't be your first choice. You can if you want, there's nothing wrong with The Hammer of Sigmar, it's just that there's a better choice or two for Generals for the Stormcasts.

Lord-Celestant on Dracoth: 7 Wounds, 3+ Save. Only slightly worse than the Prime for over 100 Points less. He's not quite as strong as the Prime in Melee (depending on how long you kept the Prime in Reserve), but he's still pretty strong. His Tempestos Hammer is the best weapon, but, if you're going heavy on Stormcast Eternal units, he gets +1 Attack with the Thunderaxe for every SE unit around him, which makes it solid. The Lord-Celestant has Inspiring Presence up to 11. No SE units within 24" take Battleshock at all. This will be pretty important, later on. Basically, this guy should probably be your first choice for General. You can work your way up to a Stardrake later on.

Lord-Celestant: The one on foot is a lot less good than the one on Dracoth. He only has 5 Wounds, and still throws out Mortal Wounds per turn, just not as many, and a lot more randomly. His Command Ability is that SE models within 9" get +1 To Hit. Not a strong choice.

Lord-Castellant: Has an extra Wound over the Celestant and his main weapon is slightly better (the Lord-Celestant has two weapons). He has a hate-on for Chaos and even more for Chaos Daemons, able to throw out Mortal Wounds without even rolling against those units. If you're not up against Chaos, he starts buffing SE units. You get +1 to your save rolls, and, if you roll a '7' for your Save, you heal a Wound from a model. It's not as strong as it sounds.

Lord-Relictor: Not great. Throws out Mortal Wounds or heals a unit. Otherwise he's about as good as the Celestant. No Command Ability, but he gets not!Magic (i.e; His 'spells' can't be Unbound), and he even costs less than the Celestant.

Knight-Azyros: SE units that Lightning Strike (see later) can set up anywhere within 5" of an Azyros, even if that would put them within 9" of an enemy unit. Once per game, he can put D3 Mortal Wounds on a unit, or D6 if they're Chaos.
Alliance-Wide Buff: All Shooting attacks against enemy models within 10" of an Azyros have +1 To Hit.

Knight-Venator: 'The Shooty One'. The Venator's Bow is fairly solid, and the Star-Eagle on is pretty deadly. Once per game, you can make one attack, that does 3 Damage, or D3+3 against a Hero or Monster. Sure, you hit on a 2+, but you can still roll a '1', or fail To Wound. For 120 Points? It's asking a lot. If you want the Venator to be any good, you're going to have to pair him with another model or unit, and that's more points.

Knight-Vexillor: SE's within 12" can re-roll Charge. Once per game, deal Mortal Wounds. But, the real bonus is his Teleport. Pick an SE unit, anywhere on the board, remove it, and then set it up anywhere else you want, only 3" away from enemy models. This is an extraordinarily strong ability, even if you can only do it once. The problem with the Vexillor is that he's 200 Points, while a Lord-Celestant on Dracoth in only 20 Points more. So yeah. This model is stupid strong. Once per game. And he's 200 Points. Well worth it though. Problem is, nearly all Stormcast Eternal units are expensive.

Knight-Heraldor: Pick an SE unit in the Hero Phase, that unit can Run/Retreat and Charge in the same turn. Nice. It's not even a Command Ability. In addition, he can cause Mortal Wounds against units in Terrain, and that's nice. At only 120 Points, you may not even want to gouge your eyes out to get him!

Battleline
Liberators: 2 Wounds and 2 attacks each is pretty strong. The 4+ Save is also good. What's not so good, is the Bravery 6. Bravery <7 on multi-wound models is really bad, because Battleshock doesn't care how many Wounds you have. The 100/5 price tag is also pretty steep, since you definitely want more than 5 models in any given unit, which basically take the unit to 200/10, which will give you an extra Grandweapon to do extra Damage. It's a very nice unit, but you'll want to avoid Battleshock like the plague. Maybe if there was some way you could make your SE's not take Battleshock at all?

Judicators: 'The Shooty Ones'. Again, Bravery 6. You'll want to look into that. All Judicators re-roll 1s when attacking Chaos models in the Shooting phase. As with all shooty units, the better one is usually the one with 24" range, unless it has significant bonuses, which the Judicators' alternate weapon, doesn't have. At 160/5, these are even more expensive than Liberators. You aren't going to need more than one unit of Judicators, and then just spam whatever else your Battleline requirement is with Liberators.

Other
Prosecutors (Hammers): Liberators that Fly. They can also throw their Hammers. Unfortunately, at 100/3, their price tag is pretty bad...and again with the Bravery 6. :smallsigh:
Prosecutors (Javelins): These aren't even close to Judicators that Fly. Fortunately, at 80/3 (i.e; 160/6) their price tag is actually worth paying, since they're cheaper than Judicators and can actually move around the board. Also, and this is never going to get old; Bravery <7 on multi-wound models is bad. Make sure that there's something in your army fixing Battleshock.

Retributors: Now with 3 Wounds...and Bravery 7! We've arrived. On a '6' To Hit, they deal 2 Mortal Wounds. Their special weapon is 'Just do D3 MWs. Don't even roll.' Retributors are fantastically strong, and at 220/5, they'd want to be (these will not be trying to score, don't bother with 440/10).

Decimators: 3W, B7. Slightly cheaper than Retributors, but not as good. They gain extra attacks for each enemy model within range, but that just means that they're garbage at fighting large, single targets. Against large-count units, you can use any other SE unit that carries 2 Attacks base, for cheaper. Seriously. Liberators are half the cost, and Battleline.

Protectors: Your Monster hunters. In addition, enemy shooting attacks are at -1 To Hit, making them even more survivable (as if 3 Wounds wasn't enough). Decimators aren't good at fighting single targets. Well, if Protectors are Monster hunters, wouldn't that make them bad at fighting hordes? ...Not even remotely my friend. Protectors have 3 Attacks each. Because screw you, that's why. At 200/5, they're quite good.

Gryph-Hound: The Dog, the Myth, the Legend. A Gryph-Hound gets better if it's near a Lord-Castellant, but no-one cares about that model. You aren't paying an exorbitant price for the Lord-Castellant, you're paying for GRYPHDOG. For 40 Points, set up Gryphdog as close to your best and most shootiest unit you own. If any enemy unit sets up nearer than 10" to Gryphdog, roll 2D6. Any unit within that many inches to the enemy unit, can shoot at the set up unit, as though it were their Shooting phase. Gryphdog doesn't give an Interceptor bubble around himself, no, Gryphdog gives an Interceptor bubble around the enemy unit. All units within range of the unit can make a Shooting attack. Gryphdog just barks. Arf! Arf! Arf! Or whatever sound a Gryphdog makes. Now, there aren't a lot of units in AoS that can set up closer than 9" to enemy models, but the ones that do, are real pains in the arse. Gryphdog is also fantastic against Summoning, since Summoners generally want to put their new units right in your face...And when that happens, Gryphdog barks and the intruders get shot in the face. By everything.
If you're playing Order, a Gryph-Hound is almost mandatory in any army you make. It's only 40 Points. How are you not!?

Warscroll Battalions
Warrior Brotherhood: So you read the Knight-Azyros, and were like "What's Lightning Strike?", this is. Bring an arse-ton of units. Each unit gets +1 Bravery if there's another SE unit within 6". Yay! Bravery 7 (and 8)! Any unit in the Battalion does not have to set up during deployment. Instead, they can come down anywhere - at any time - more than 9" away from enemy models. Did you bring your Knight-Azyros? If a unit from this Battalion is within 8" of two other units from the Battalion, re-roll 1s To Wound. Your minimum buy-in for this Battalion is close to 1500 Points, easy.

The Skyborne Slayers: Any unit from this Battalion can choose to not deploy. Instead, pick a point on the battlefield, for the rest of the game, models from this Battalion must arrive within 12" of that point, and only 5" away from enemy models. This is not Lightning Strike. In addition, models from this Battalion don't take Battleshock Tests. You did it. *Slow clap*. You magnificent bastards. You did it. We finally got there. Yes. Yeesss! ...The minimum buy-in is 1020 Points. So take that, 1000 Point games. :smalltongue:

Extremis Chambers

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (B): 600 Points. Hot damn. 16 Wounds, with a 3+ Save, re-rolling 1s. If the re-roll turns into a successful save, deal a Mortal Wound to the enemy unit. If a model the Stardrake is fighting has <6 Wounds on their profile, the 'Drake can just eat them. The Stardrake can also bring the lightning, and start smashing stuff with Mortal Wounds. Funny story, though. The Stardrake is better than the Lord-Celestant. If you read closely, you'll see that the Stardrake has the Command Ability, not the guy on top. :smalltongue: All your SE 'beasts' on the board can re-roll To Wound with their animal weapons.
Wizards in your army can +/- 1 to their casting rolls. But there are much cheaper ways of getting this exact bonus.

Drakesworn Templar (B): 500 Points isn't better. It's basically the same as the Lord-Celestant - including +1 to cast for Wizards - except lacks a fixed Command Ability, and correspondingly, the Templar isn't as good as the Lord-Celestant in combat. But that's not what's important. You're paying for the Stardrake.

Lord-Celestant on Dracoth: TGH says you can take one under the Extremis Chambers. But it doesn't matter. It's not like Extremis has a unit that turns Battleline if you have Allegiance. The only keywords you really need to look for are Stormcast Eternals. Which everything has anyway.

Other
Fulminators: 5 Wounds, 3+ Save. Bravery 7. Great. +1 Save during the Shooting phase. 240/2 is still real steep, and you shouldn't do it.
Tempestors: Ditto. But with Crossbows. The unit they shoot at gets -1 To Hit until your next turn. 240/2 is still real steep, and you shouldn't do it.
Concussors: Ditto. They stun their target in Melee, hence the name. The Dracoths in this unit, however, are much better, just straight up doing MWs. 240/2...:smallfrown:
Desolators: Ditto. If there are four models in the unit, they get an extra attack, if there are six models in the unit, they get another one. 280/2 makes me want to cry.


If you play Order, but aren't interested in Stormcasts, the Knight-Azyros, and Gryph-Hound are still massive, individual force multipliers, and you should definitely look into them. Other SE multipliers only help other SE units, and you don't need to worry.

[Cheesegear]

How I spent my Sunday; First non-40K model that I've painted in a long, long time...

Belegar Ironhammer Warden King

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Warden%20King_zpsoygmveu0.jpg

Paint time; ~6 hours.

Only reason that he's not based is because I haven't decided how to base my Duardin yet.

[Drasius]

How I spent my Sunday; First non-40K model that I've painted in a long, long time...

Belegar Ironhammer Warden King

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/Cheesegear/Warden%20King_zpsoygmveu0.jpg

Paint time; ~6 hours.

Only reason that he's not based is because I haven't decided how to base my Duardin yet.

And not a drop of yellow on him. He looks pretty flash Cheese, well done!

[Requizen]

Learning lessons from today:


Battalions aren't worth it when your tax units aren't good. Heralds of Nurgle are too expensive for something that basically just activates Loci, and Nurglings are just horrible.
Ogres are brutal. Brutal.
Rend is super important.
Doesn't matter how many fancy rules you have, an army full of low wound 5+ save units is pretty subpar
Daemon Princes suck when you can't roll a single 3+ save


Kind of having fun with Chaos, kind of feeling like starting something else. I'd love to start Stormcasts, but they're so bloody expensive if you want anything not in the starter kits. And the good stuff isn't the starter kits, for the most part.

[Cheesegear]

And the good stuff isn't the starter kits, for the most part.

lolwat.

Main boxed game;
Lord-Celestant on Dracoth. Basically mandatory for his Command Ability.
Lord-Relictor; He's 'fine', but you can replace him with pretty much anything.
x10 Liberators. Again, basically mandatory. x2 Battleline.
x3 Retributors are 'fine', but actually come in blocks of 5. But we'll circle back.
x3 Prosecutors (with Hammers) are pretty bad. Do some conversion work, give 'em Javelins.

So far, the Retributors aren't quite usable, and the Prosecutors need converting. Lord-Relictor isn't bad, just unnecessary.

Start Collecting!
Lord-Celestant. Ew.
Another 5 Liberators. Now you actually have a Scoring unit of 10, and another of 5.
x3 Prosecutors; These are the real ones, not the snap-fit ones, so give them Javelins.
x2 Retributors; Ta-da! That's your five.

Order
(G) Lord-Celestant on Dracoth - 220 Points

Liberators (x10) - 200 Points
Liberators (x5) - 100 Points

Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (x3) - 80 Points
Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (x3) - 80 Points
Retributors (x5) - 220 Points

Total: 900 Points

Lord-Celestant - 100 Points

You have 1000 Points, with what amounts to pretty much no dead weight (aside from the extra Celestant). Just from starter boxes. What are you even talking about!?

Knight-Azyros - 100 Points
Judicators (x5) - 160 Points
Judicators (x5) - 160 Points

Total: 1420 Points

Lord-Relictor - 80 Points

[Requizen]

lolwat.

I don't agree that Liberators are nearly as good as Judicators - you have an army with lots of very strong front-line combat units, why not have your Battleline units be ones of the better ranged foot dudes in the game?

Like you, I also consider Extremis Chambers to be Stormcast. And there are really, really no ways to get them for a reasonable price. I don't mind paying big for the Stardrake, since it's a massive model and looks about as kickass as you can dream, but I'm no fan of the pricepoint of the Dracoths.

I also don't really know any decent way to convert Javelins and Shields onto the snapfit Prosecutors, and I sure as heck ain't running them with hammers and no shields.

So I guess what I should have said was "I really want to make an army of Dracoths, Judicators, and Javelin Prosecutors, and that's not conducive to buying the starter sets". Apologies.

[Cheesegear]

Like you, I also consider Extremis Chambers to be Stormcast.

Extremis Chambers are Stormcasts. Check the keywords. The thing that I'm bothered by is that there's no reason to split them up. The point of splitting up a single Faction, is for Allegiance-Battleline swaps. But, since neither Stormcasts nor Extremis Chambers have Battleline swaps, what is the point in splitting them up, like they have?

I guess we'll find out when Stormcasts/Extremis get their own post-TGH book.

[Requizen]

Actually I think what annoys me most about playing Chaos so far is that, at least for Daemons, there doesn't seem to be any just power units that kick ass and take names. Princes and Be'lakor sort of do, the GUO rather does, but there don't seem to be an equivalent to something like Ironjaw Brutes or Gutbustas that delete the things they walk towards.

Maybe need to branch out into Slaves to Darkness for things like Chaos Knights or the like. Or need to get more combos going, I think maybe a Sorc Lord with Steed supporting Be'lakor might be pretty scary.

[Cheesegear]

I still just don't rate Dracoths though. 240/2 isn't strong. I know, that between two models, you've got 10 Wounds, and that's a lot. But it doesn't matter how many Wounds you have, because Scoring Objectives in the game is more often than not, based on model count. 480/4 still doesn't fix the problem. It's only when you get to six models do Dracoths become viable, and at that point? 720 Points! For one unit! That's not even Battleline or a Leader so you still have taxes to pay.

Compared to Prosecutors with Javelines. 80/3 is well, three models isn't good. But I'm certainly glad to pay 80 Points for only three models. 160/6 solves the model count issue and is still easily affordable.

[Requizen]

I still just don't rate Dracoths though. 240/2 isn't strong. I know, that between two models, you've got 10 Wounds, and that's a lot. But it doesn't matter how many Wounds you have, because Scoring Objectives in the game is more often than not, based on model count. 480/4 still doesn't fix the problem. It's only when you get to six models do Dracoths become viable, and at that point? 720 Points! For one unit! That's not even Battleline or a Leader so you still have taxes to pay.


Disagree. There is only one mission that requires 5 units to hold an objective. The rest are either "have more models than your opponent" or "any of your models and none of your opponent's" to hold. Both are easier with more units, but when you're as rough and tumble as Dracoths, you can scare people off your points or just straight up kill them.

[Drasius]

The guy here who runs a unit of 6-8 Dracoths has lost every game bar 1 that he's played with them. As soon as he drops them and takes other stuff, he wins. Cool as they are and relatively nasty as they are, they don't stand up against the really scary stuff (Manfred/Mawcrusha/Hellpit etc) and other things would wipe out battle line stuff just as easy for way less points without being quite so vulnerable to a Bunch of Artillery/Kurnoth Hunters/Warpfire Projectors.

[Cheesegear]

Cool as they are and relatively nasty as they are, they don't stand up...

The second that anything starts throwing out Mortal Wounds (and there are quite a number of those), Stormcasts start dropping like flies. Dracoths might have 3+ Armour, but once you get into -2 Rend territory and Mortal Wounds, Dracoths start taking it sideways. If you want the 10" Move (and you do), you're way better off with Prosecutors at one third the cost.

I like Dracoths. I really, really do. But then TGH came out and I saw their pricetag (Currency or Points, take your pick), and was like "Nope!"

Just about the only thing that makes Dracoths worth taking, is the Knight-Vexillor's teleport ability. But any Stormcast unit can make use of that for far less points. Similarly, as I progress through the Order Tome, they'll be a number of things that you could combo with Dracoths. But you could combo anything with anything, for less points than Dracoths. And, ultimately, playing 'just Stormcasts' isn't how the game works.

Stardrakes give bonuses to Wizards. Stormcasts don't have any Wizard units. The only one that even comes close is the Lord-Relictor, and he's a Priest. The game is designed from the ground up, to intend for Grand Alliances, not single Factions.

If your plan is to make Dracoths work, it wont be by playing 'Just Stormcasts.'

[Requizen]

The second that anything starts throwing out Mortal Wounds (and there are quite a number of those), Stormcasts start dropping like flies. Dracoths might have 3+ Armour, but once you get into -2 Rend territory and Mortal Wounds, Dracoths start taking it sideways. If you want the 10" Move (and you do), you're way better off with Prosecutors at one third the cost.

Yeah, but what unit in that game isn't that true for? I guess horde units don't care as much about MWs or high rend (because they don't care about losing models), but there are very few units in the game that ignore MWs or Rending.

[LCP]

I have a question for AOS points-book-havers - how many points are Ripperdactyls?

[Cheesegear]

I have a question for AOS points-book-havers - how many points are Ripperdactyls?

140/3. Terradons are the same.

[LCP]

So, prompted by the discussions above about building competitively - is there any reason for someone who's willing to use them not to spam rippers in skink patrols? 140/280pts to delete a unit of your choice on T1 seems like a bargain.

[Drasius]

So, prompted by the discussions above about building competitively - is there any reason for someone who's willing to use them not to spam rippers in skink patrols? 140/280pts to delete a unit of your choice on T1 seems like a bargain.

Because you want to get games in the future?

[Cheesegear]

140/280pts to delete a unit of your choice on T1 seems like a bargain.

Of your choice? On Turn 1? I hardly think so. Are you 100% sure you're not talking about Terradons? It's the Terradons that drop the rocks (and not even that happens on Turn 1). You're going to have to explain to me how Ripperdactyls can delete units, because I don't see it.

[Drasius]

Of your choice? On Turn 1? I hardly think so. Are you 100% sure you're not talking about Terradons? It's the Terradons that drop the rocks (and not even that happens on Turn 1). You're going to have to explain to me how Ripperdactyls can delete units, because I don't see it.

3 attacks per model with their beaks once the toad is placed, their skink patrol formation grants them re-rolls to hit and wound when they declare their swooping attack IIRC. For every hit, you get another attack that can generate more attacks. Even at base levels, a unit of 3 is generating ~32ish wounds. At least there's no rend and only 1 damage, but that's an incredible amount of saves to roll for 140 points. Since they move, what, 10"? 14"? and fly, there's not much that can get away from them reliably either. That's 10 unsaved wounds on a 3+ armour save model. 6 Razordons statistically 1 round Archaon before he can strike back as long as he doesn't have mystic shield or is in a forest. That's kind of OK for 280 points, I guess.

Also IIRC, a Saurus BSB summoned in next to the target hands out re-rolls to hit as well, so you can do it without needing the formation if you don't want skinks for whatever reason, though obviously no re-roll to wound.

[Cheesegear]

their skink patrol formation...

Ah. Something I'm not paying attention to. Probably why I missed it.

[Requizen]

Except that with Rules of One you don't generate extra hits off of generated extra attacks, and Ripperdactyls are the unit they use as an example.

[LCP]

That's bad writing then - the ripperdactyl rules (at least the ones they have online) explicitly say they do.


Because you want to get games in the future?

As I said, for someone willing to use them. There's always gentleman's agreements to be had around cheesy builds but if this one existed I was thinking that it made competitive list-building pretty much moot. There would be the Ripper List and then there were Lists That Will Lose To The Ripper List.


their skink patrol formation grants them re-rolls to hit and wound when they declare their swooping attack IIRC

That's actually in their base rules - they get the double re-rolls just in exchange for "coming down to ground level" (a fairly meaningless penalty if you measure base-to-base). The skink patrol lets them set up in reserve and then drop anywhere on the board - including directly into combat - turn 1 (or on a subsequent turn if you want to hold them back for some reason - but then your opponent will know where the toad is and can run away). Plus they get +1 to wound if the Skink Priest leading the formation has LOS to their target.

A Skink Patrol of 1 Skink Priest, 2 Chameleon Skinks and 1 Ripper Unit can deploy just 1 model (the Skink Priest - who is titchy and easy to hide out of LOS, and can have a Cloak of Feathers to fly around at 14" a turn), and then T1 set up all 3 of its proper units anywhere on the board with no limits on proximity to the enemy. The chameleons can subsequently teleport away too. Point, click, delete.


Edit: Ah it's a GH rule. So they are errata-ing the base game as well as adding a pts system.

[Drasius]

Is that only for matched play, or is that just a thing that happens now? 'Cause if so, you'd think that they'd change their pdf's so people who don't buy the handbook are playing wrong.

[Requizen]

Is that only for matched play, or is that just a thing that happens now? 'Cause if so, you'd think that they'd change their pdf's so people who don't buy the handbook are playing wrong.

Technically the Rules of One are always in effect for Matched Play, but are optional for other types of play if people wish to use them.

But let's be real, aside from people running fun/themed games or campaigns, you're going to be playing Matched Play. Probably 95% of the time.

[Cheesegear]

Edit: Ah it's a GH rule. So they are errata-ing the base game as well as adding a pts system.

Yes. That is why the game is worth playing post-TGH.


Is that only for matched play, or is that just a thing that happens now?

Only for Matched Play, which is the only mode worth playing.

[LCP]

Yes. That is why the game is worth playing post-TGH.

Closing basic bugs in the engine that have been known about pretty much since GW started making wargames doesn't qualify AOS as "worth playing" IMO. It might be worth playing for other reasons, but that reason alone, while necessary, is not sufficient.

[Requizen]

So I'm actually really intrigued in starting a SE army after our little chat. At least, as a core for an Order army. I'm just worried about their efficiency as a low model count army, which I feel is a pretty reasonable concern with how easy some other armies can remove models via MW and high rend stuff.

Obviously it isn't as bad as it is in 40k, but will I be kicking myself for not going for a higher model count force? For example, Chaos Warriors have essentially the same statline as Liberators for less points, but with a different support structure.

[JNAProductions]

I feel like Sigmar is, ultimately, a system that is simultaneously harder to udnerstand and has less depth than 40k. Without universal rules, it requires you to know EVERY SINGLE MODEL to really master it, but because it's so damn simplified, it's just much more basic than 40k. Less rules is not a good thing. (It's not a bad thing either-Sigmar games tend to take a lot less time than 40k games, just because they go much faster.)

[Requizen]

I feel like Sigmar is, ultimately, a system that is simultaneously harder to udnerstand and has less depth than 40k. Without universal rules, it requires you to know EVERY SINGLE MODEL to really master it, but because it's so damn simplified, it's just much more basic than 40k. Less rules is not a good thing. (It's not a bad thing either-Sigmar games tend to take a lot less time than 40k games, just because they go much faster.)
You're right, it's not good or bad. But I believe there is much more depth to it than you may perceive at first. Probably not as much as 40k, but you also don't need to know nearly as much to play.

[Cheesegear]

Without universal rules, it requires you to know EVERY SINGLE MODEL to really master it...

Like I said, to play 40K (or old WHFB) I'm expected to know almost 120 Pages worth of rules, if I'm to take the game seriously. Not including my Codex/Army Book.
To imply that it's difficult to remember the <10 Warscrolls in your army, means something.

[JNAProductions]

Like I said, to play 40K (or old WHFB) I'm expected to know almost 120 Pages worth of rules, if I'm to take the game seriously. Not including my Codex/Army Book.
To imply that it's difficult to remember the <10 Warscrolls in your army, means something.

Oh, it's easy to play. But I mean to master EVERYTHING. Since there's no universal rules, that means knowing every last warscroll from every army.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, it's easy to play. But I mean to master EVERYTHING. Since there's no universal rules, that means knowing every last warscroll from every army.

Well, it doesn't.

[Requizen]

Oh, it's easy to play. But I mean to master EVERYTHING. Since there's no universal rules, that means knowing every last warscroll from every army.
That's a little disingenuous. There's just as much of that in 40k, in order to be at a "competitive" level you're expected to know how all sorts of units work across multiple codices, those different army's special rules/detachments/artifacts, their guns and their different effects, the psychic powers even if you don't use them, etc. And for some armies (for example, Nids) that might also mean being aware of multiple different sources outside of the codex for those armies, like supplements, campaigns, White Dwarfs, and random dataslates.

Just because some rules are USRs doesn't mean 40k is somehow so much more centralized and without spread out things you have to know. The "knowledge barrier" to 40k is probably much higher and also not free (legally).

[Cheesegear]

The game is brand new. I'm not going to pretend that I know how all the units work. I'm not even going to pretend that I know how my own Order book works (but I'm learning), but it's not actually your responsibility to memorise every unit in the game.

Roll Mission. Learn what you need to do to win the game.
Deployment;
Where's your General? How many Wounds and what Armour Save?
Any Wizards or Priests? How many Wounds and what Armour Save?
Any Heroes handing out other buffs? What do they do and Wounds and Armour Save?
What does that Monster do?

By simply asking my opponent questions, I learn what I need to do to win. I learn how my opponent plans on winning, even if I've never seen the unit before. It's my responsibility to memorise my Warscrolls (I haven't seen a single army with more than 10 distinct units), it's my opponent's responsibility to memorise their Warscrolls. And it's both players' responsibility to let each other know what they're doing and how they're doing it.

Obviously, I have to remember what my opponent tells me...Alternatively, I can keep asking them the same question over and over and over again.

[Requizen]

Things one thing I will predict to be "meta strong" once Matched Play starts to settle is Wizards with d6 MW spells, especially of they're also able to cast 2 per turn. There are plenty of foot heroes with 5W, so the ability to potentially snipe them out is huge, and they can more easily cut down multi-wound power units than Wizards just Arcane Bolt. Also capable of knocking Behemoths down a couple wound categories if they use charts, which is good.

[Cheesegear]

Things one thing I will predict to be "meta strong" once Matched Play starts to settle is Wizards with d6 MW spells,

Anything that does D6 MWs is immediately worth taking, and is quite a strong reason for why I only rate models with 7 or more Wounds to be Generals.


especially of they're also able to cast 2 per turn.

Which only illustrates how important having your own Wizards and Priests are for Unbinding.


There are plenty of foot heroes with 5W

And nearly all of them are bad. See the thing about Generals needing 7 or more Wounds.

Also, you are factoring in [Spell]+Arcane Bolt, right, as the two spells? Not [Spell]+[Same Spell]? Rule of One. Just checking.

[Drasius]

Also, you are factoring in [Spell]+Arcane Bolt, right, as the two spells? Not [Spell]+[Same Spell]? Rule of One. Just checking.

Either that or spell + mystic shield. +1 saves is not to be scoffed at if your opponents army isn't based around doing mortal wounds, doubly so if you've got a built in re-roll mechanic to your unit.

Or maybe it's just that I see a lot of big, killy units (either Monstrous Creature or group of Monstrous Infantry) that really benefit from moving from terrain to terrain and having a 2+ after mystic shield.

[Cheesegear]

Either that or spell + mystic shield. +1 saves is not to be scoffed at if your opponents army isn't based around doing mortal wounds, doubly so if you've got a built in re-roll mechanic to your unit.

Mystic Shield is indeed a pain, and why I like to go after Wizards, and why I have my own. But Requizen isn't wrong. If you can roll D6+D3 MWs to someone's General or lynchpin Hero on Turn 1, with no apparent immediate consequences, you should probably go for the throat.

[Requizen]

Yeah, Casting Level 2 (keep wanting to type ML2 lol) is super good. If you don't instagib something with your d6 spell, you can finish it with Arcane Bolt. If you do instagib it, you Shield someone. Win/win. A lot of combo models end up being foot Heroes. Necromancers for Skeleton/Zombie blobs, Sorcerer Lords for Daemonic Power, and if you're lucky, you can snipe a Knight-Azyros before the Lightning Strike comes down.

But the thing I like is that it's difficult. Most of these spells have a 12" or 18" range, with only a few being "super long" at 24". And casting comes before movement (unless you're Destruction, because Destruction), so it becomes a game of position/counter-position to keep your lynchpin units alive. Which is good.

I've resolved on Stormcast. Decided to split a Starter Set with an acquaintance and have a Start Collecting preordered (even though, as I said, the plan is to add mostly Judicators, Prosecutors, and Dracoths in the future), and already have a paint scheme picked out. Now all to do is figure out what Order stuff is necessary to add - obviously a Wizard or three of some sort.

[Sayt]

So, I have some Bretonnians sitting in my closet collecting dust, mostly just basic Knights of the Realm, A Paladin, Green Knight and a box or two of longbowmen. How did they get treated in the generals handbook? Is it worth pulling them out, dusting them off and (finishing) painting them for casual play?

[Cheesegear]

So, I have some Bretonnians sitting in my closet collecting dust, mostly just basic Knights of the Realm, A Paladin, Green Knight and a box or two of longbowmen. How did they get treated in the generals handbook?

Perfectly fine.


Is it worth pulling them out, dusting them off and (finishing) painting them for casual play?

I don't think so. A quick run through the 'book', or, at least going through the entries for the models you have, tells me that if you haven't been playing AoS, then you can probably still not play AoS if you don't have money to buy new models. The models you have...Just aren't very good, and TGH only gave them points. The Green Knight is fine at 200 Points, especially since he doesn't even die right, and he can Infiltrate anew every time he comes back...

But the glaring problem is the rules, not the points.
Bretonnians go from Louen himself at 10 Wounds and 400 Points (which isn't a lot, considering), to 'everything else' with only 5 Wounds. I assumed that a Lord on Pegasus might get +2 Wounds, but, no such luck. As I mentioned in a previous post, Heroes - and especially Generals - with less than 7 Wounds...Aren't survivable. Straight off the bat, Cannon. Two shots, one misses, wounds on 2+, with Rend -2. Even a 3+ Save is down to 5+. That's bad. Then your opponent rolls a (un)lucky 5 or 6, and your General/Hero is just dead. The Green Knight only has 5 Wounds, but at least he comes back...Sometimes.

A Bretonnian Lord is 140 Points, has 5 Wounds and is kind of okay.
A Choas Lord on Daemonic Mount is also 140 Points, has 7 Wounds, and hits like truck, and has a 5++.

With that perspective, there are probably all sorts of things in the Bretonnian list that are overcosted. :smallfrown:

[Sayt]

Well, that's a bit disappointing. The thing I forgot to mention is a quartet of pegasi, though I expect that doesn't change much.

[Requizen]

I dunno, they seem a bit overpointed but you can always take them out for a game, it doesn't cost you anything but some time. Try em out, cavalry is pretty good and people are still learning how everything works as far as meta and builds go.

[Requizen]

Hm, do you guys think Rend or Damage > 1 is more important?

So I'm comparing Javelin Prosecutors and Judicators as ranged options. Judicators have more range, Prosecutors are faster and cost less points per model. It's a reasonable comparison, I think. The big difference in their shooting profile is that the Judicators have Rend -1, but the Prosecutors can have Damage 2 if they're in the right range (very easy to do with mobility and strong frontline units). So the Judicators get more wounds through, but any wounds that the Prosecutors get through will do more.

What is your guy's take on the difference? Damage 2 is great against multi-wound models because it helps chunk through them quicker (only need to get 2 through on Ogors instead of 4 for Judicators), but Rend takes priority if suddenly you come against lots of 3+ save units or things having saves buffed (Sylvaneth hanging out in Woods comes to mind).

[LCP]

Did the GH change how Damage works? At release I remember that Damage > 1 applied whether your target was multi-wound or single-wound - the wounds just overflow onto the rest of the unit.

As such the only situation in which Rend -1 is better than Damage 2 is if targeting a unit with a 2+ save. In all other situations Damage 2 is strictly better.

[Requizen]

Did the GH change how Damage works? At release I remember that Damage > 1 applied whether your target was multi-wound or single-wound - the wounds just overflow onto the rest of the unit.

As such the only situation in which Rend -1 is better than Damage 2 is if targeting a unit with a 2+ save. In all other situations Damage 2 is strictly better.

No, that's how it works, I just wasn't sure since I hadn't run the numbers. 3+ saves are hard to break through as well, especially if they can reroll.

5 Judicators shooting at a 4+ unit -> 1.48 wounds
5 Prosecutors shooting at a 4+ unit (assuming 2 damage range) ->2.22 wounds

Yeah you're totally right. I guess it comes down to how hot your opponent's saves are, sometimes it feels like 5+ saves are 3+ or better :smallbiggrin:

[LCP]

It's another thing about AoS' combat system that feels semi-innumerate to me... Damage and number of attacks are almost interchangeable in their effect. The only difference between ramping one up compared to the other is the variance of the result (e.g. 1 attack at Damage 10 is swingier than 10 attacks at Damage 1), but in practice both stick within a fairly limited range that minimises this difference.

A correction to my above post - when I said "better than", I should have said "better than or equal to". Against a 2+ save, Rend -1 is exactly as good as Damage 2 - both multiply your damage output by 2. Against any worse save Damage 2 is strictly superior (although if your opponent has rerolls that would complicate the situation).

EDIT: If your opponent has full rerolls (i.e. not just rerolling 1s) then Rend 1 starts being better than Damage 2 at 3+ saves. If they can only reroll 1s then the threshold is still at 2+ (but then Rend is genuinely a little better, not just equivalent).

[Requizen]

Went up against a Celestial Hurricanum today. That thing is insane. Anywhere between 3 and 3d6 Mortal Wounds per shooting phase until you chunk it down, without needing to roll to hit or anything. Nuts. Point cost is appropriate, but without the range or damage to kill it, it was just able to eat through so much stuff.

Daemons are off to buyers, picking up Stormcast starter set and a box of Judicators tomorrow. Unless I change my mind...

[Cheesegear]

Guide to the Order Grand Alliance
Part II; Seraphon

Disclaimer; These Guides will not feature any references to Compendium/Legacy units. You can't buy them anymore, so it would be disingenuous to recommend them in any capacity. If you've already got some, then you probably already know how good they are.

Leaders
Slann Starmaster: With a respectable 7 Wounds and 4+ Armour, the Slann comes in at a nice 260 Points. After Deployment, roll a D6 and your SERAPHON on the board get buffed. A Slann is a Level 3 Wizard, who knows Light of the Heavens, which can be cast on CELESTIAL DAEMONS (read; Seraphon) or CHAOS DAEMON units. Celestials roll two dice for Battleshock, discarding the highest, and Chaos units do the same, but discard the lowest. Instead of casting one spell, the Slann can attempt to change the Seraphon-wide buff, except he has to do this before he casts Spells, and if he rolls a '1', he can't cast for the rest of the turn. In addition, a Slann can measure range or LoS from any SKINK HERO within 15", which is handy for casting Arcane Bolt from behind a wall. A Slann's Command Ability is that Seraphon within 10" can re-roll failed Saves in the shooting phase. Very nice. Since all Seraphon are Bravery 10, it's not like you'll need Inspiring Presence.

Lord Kroak: Since Kroak is immortal, he managed to survive the destruction of the Old World. Yay! Kroak doesn't have Wounds. In fact, he's one of the only (the only?) character in the game that actually cares about his Bravery - it's 10, BTW. Add up the number of Wounds that Kroak has taken that turn, and roll Battleshock, if he fails, he's dead. If he doesn't, he regenerates and can't die. This means that unless Kroak takes 5 or more Wounds in one turn, he can't even die. And even if he does, it's not a sure thing. Kroak is a Level 4 Wizard with a Nova power that doesn't really work, but does extra Wounds to CHAOS DAEMONS, and his second signature spell does D3 MWs to D3 - sometimes D6 - units. His Command Ability gives you 0<3 re-rolls on any dice until your next Hero Phase. All that, and he's over 500 Points, which isn't too bad.
As you can see, Kroak doesn't give out the Seraphon-wide buff, and he can't cast through Skink Heroes. In fact, he has no rules tying him to Seraphon at all. Including his Command Ability. Kroak doesn't buff your army like other Generals. No, Kroak buffs you, the player, regardless of your army. Kroak also has a stunning ability to not die, which makes him a good General for many Order army lists. Not all, but many.

SLANN WIZARDS can Summon any Seraphon unit. Outside of Matched Play, it's stupid strong. That's probably why it's limited in Matched Play. :smallwink:
As with all WIZARDS, never underestimate the power of Mystic Shield.

Leaders
Saurus Heroes, even on foot, have 7 Wounds. This immediately makes all of them actually playable. Some are better than others, sure. But that's always going to be the case.

Saurus Oldblood: 7W, 4+ Save. Ignores Rend -1. Decent. SAURUS within a tiny range can re-roll 1s To Wound. His Command Ability allows you to do a conga-line to get slightly closer to make Charges. Ignore for...

Saurus Sunblood: Same deal, but Ignores Rend -2. He has five attacks, which can generate extra attacks, and can generate extra Wounds. His Command Ability is pick an enemy unit; All SAURUS get re-rolls To Hit in Melee against that unit. This guy is so much better than the Oldblood that it's not even a joke, and for only 20 Points.

Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (B): 12 Wounds for 320 Points doesn't seem like a good deal. A Slann is 260 and appears to be a lot more helpful. The Oldblood on the top has a decent Shooting attack, and in Melee he's just as good - if not better - than the Oldblood on foot. Like most Leader, Behemoths, it wouldn't be right if the Monster wasn't better than the Hero riding it. Carnosaurs like fighting MONSTERS. I mean, they're slightly more effective at fighting Monsters than other things. Once 'this model' slays an enemy model, the Carnosaur can Run and Charge in the same turn for the rest of the game. If enemies take Battleshock around a Carnosaur, dice-off, if you win, your opponent loses D3 models. That means, your opponent, who wants to roll 1s and 2s on Battleshock, will lose models anyway, because Carnosaurs are just that scary.
His Command Ability is giving all SAURUS HEROES within a huge bubble, +2 Attacks on one weapon. Pretty good. So, the Slann is for when you want an army-wide buff. Carnosaurs are for when you want to play HeroHammer.

Saurus Eternity Warden: Saurus Hero statline. If he's within 2" of a SLANN, he can take Wounds for them on a 2+. Basically, he gives Slann a 2+ Ward Save, but the Warden takes the Wound if the Save is passed. In addition, Saurus Guard within 5" of him gain an extra attack, taking them to 3. He's a pretty strong force multiplier.

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (B): For 60 Points less than the Oldblood, the Scar-Veteran is only slightly worse in combat. But, the difference is that he brought a Shield instead of a ranged weapon, and so ignores Rend -1, which potentially makes him more survivable. But, most of the Monster-hunting units in the game will pack Rend -2, and obliterate you regardless. Against Handgunners (Rend -1), the Scar-Veteran is better. Against Cannons (Rend -2) you're dead either way. As always with L/Bs, the Carnosaur is still a Carnosaur, regardless of who is riding it. So, yeah. While an Oldblood asks you to spam Heroes, the Scar-Veteran only buffs a single SAURUS unit, letting them generate extra attacks on 6s To Hit. There's nothing at all wrong with the Scar-Veteran for 60 Points less (mostly because a Carnosaur is going to Carnosaur), it's just dependent on how many Saurus Heroes you're spamming.

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One: A Saurus Hero with a better Move. Ignores Rend -1. Generates more attacks*. Command: All SAURUS units within range can re-roll Charges and re-roll 1s To Hit. This is actually a huge buff since it affects all eligible units, not just one. He costs exactly the same as the Oldblood on foot and Sunblood. But, let's not beat around the bush, it doesn't matter. Because you and I both know you're bringing a Slann or Carnosaur for your General. When not choosing your General, and just some random Hero, the Sunblood is probably better - probably, but maybe not.
* This method of generating attacks is complicated, but it does actually get around the Rule of One, since extra attacks aren't generating extra attacks. After the SV attacks, roll a dice, on a 4+, attack again (3 attacks, BTW). After those attacks, roll again, on a 6+, attack again. The attacks are not generating attacks, rather, a simple dice mechanic is. An SV could have nine attacks with his War-pick alone.

Saurus Astrolith Bearer: Saurus Hero, but with only six Wounds, which means it's possible to one-shot him. Possible, because 6W isn't 5W. Like other Battle Standards, he can decide not to move for that turn. If he does so, SERAPHON WIZARDS get +1 to cast, and, while the Banner is planted, every SERAPHON around the model get re-rolls To Hit.

Battleline
Saurus Warriors: At 100/10, Warriors are fairly solid, largely in part to their Bravery 10 (like everything else Seraphon). 5+ Save and ignores Rend -1. Not the greatest, but they do have two attacks each (one weapon, one jaws). +1 To Hit if you've got 20, but, unlike pretty much every other unit, you get +1 weapon attack if you have 30 (max unit is 40). So, the fact that Saurus Warriors get two bonuses for more models puts them fairly high up on the list. However, any enemy unit that takes Battleshock near Warriors gets +1 because of their Banner. More Banners = More penalties. So, while it would be very nice to have 20 or 30 Warriors for re-rolls To Hit and extra attacks, +2 or +3 to your opponent's Battleshock is also very attractive.

Other
Saurus Guard: 100/5 is pretty expensive for 1W models. But they're actually really good in Melee, even without an Eternity Warden - but you can probably take one anyway because they have 7W. Their Standard and Musician is the same as the Warriors. They ignore Rend -1, which is always good. If a SERAPHON HERO is near them, they get +2 Bravery (Is B12 even a thing?), but no-one cares about that, because they also get +1 to their Save. Giving them 3+. So, they're twice as expensive as Saurus Warriors, but are they twice as good? ...Uhh...No. Saurus Guard are Battleline if you have all Seraphon though, so it might be worth looking at, but we'll circle back.

Saurus Knights: Slowest cavalry in the game? At 7" Move, they're not hot, when it comes to cavalry. Alternatively, they're 120/5 with two Wounds each, actually making them really good cavalry. Just slow(er). Ignores Rend -1 like Saurus Shields do. Where Saurus really shine, is when they Charge (as with all Cavalry), if they roll a 6 To Wound, they automatically inflict a MW, in addition to the other wound that they're doing. So potentially dealing two Damage, where one of those wounds can't be saved.
It's also important to note that this is one of those cases where +1 To Wound doesn't mean what you think it means (at least in AoS). While technically, yes, if you're hitting on a 3+, with +1, you would technically hit on a 2+, that's true. But (in AoS) that's not actually what's happening. The 2 on the dice, becomes a 3, due to +1. So, the To Wound roll, for Saurus Knights, can happen on 5+, or 4+, etc. If you can somehow find a way to give them bonuses To Wound. Again, Battleline if you have all Seraphon, and all-Cavalry armies aren't even bad...Especially if they're 120/5 with two wounds each.

Leaders
Skink Starseer: 5W/4+. Not great. He can Fly, but he's only got 5" Move so it's not like it matters. He's a Wizard, so is only a 160 Point Mystic Shield caddy, but he also has Curse of Fates, which targets a unit, and you get to increase or decrease a dice roll by 1. It can be clutch when targeting a single model (like a Hero or Monster) that you need to fail or pass an Armour Save (say, against something that's about to do D6 Damage), but against units, it's not very good.
Both you and your opponent choose a number on a dice. Reveal dice. Straight up, you get that many re-rolls until your next Hero Phase. Unless, you and your opponent have chosen the same number, in which case your opponent gets that many re-rolls. This is stupid strong, and at 160 Points, is much cheaper than 540 Point Lord Kroak. Is also not a Command Ability, so the Starseer doesn't have to be your General, and it's also far less random. Since Lord Kroak's Command Ability, actually has the potential to get you nothing at all, and maxes out at 3. While a Starpriest maxes out at 6 re-rolls, with no dice-rolling at all, just bluffing your opponent.

Skink Starpriest: 4W/5+, even worse. Is also a WIZARD and a PRIEST, so can be double targeted by units that hate either caster-type. This probably isn't a good thing. But it increases your terrain choices, if you're in a meta that tells you to bring a terrain piece for your army. Per turn, pick a unit within range, when they roll 6s To Wound, they deal double Damage. Solid. Pair with Saurus Knights or Salamanders. As a Wizard, he's a 100 Point Mystic Shield caddy, that can also cast Summon Starlight; Pick a unit, if the unit is SERAPHON, enemy units have -1 To Hit against it, if it's anything else (i.e; an enemy unit), that unit has -1 To Hit against whatever they attack. In addition, if the unit is CHAOS DAEMONS, they also take D3 MWs. Fairly strong force multiplier at only 100 Points, but at 4 Wounds, don't expect it to last long unless you have other, juicier targets.

Skink Priest: His Priest power is, on a 4+, pick a SERAPHON unit, that unit gets re-rolls to Run, Charge and Saves. If you have the right cloak on, the Power affects all Seraphon units within 8" instead of just one. Very strong. His other cloak just lets him Fly, which is nowhere near as good.

Engine of the Gods (B): This one has all the keywords, except the most important one; Wizard. :smallfrown: This is arguably one of the most broken models in the game, and is actually banned in more than a few metas. The Stegadon is still a Stegadon (see Behemoths), and it's just as killy as normal. But what makes the model broken, is its random table. Roll 3D6b2 (or 4d6b3 if there's a SLANN sitting next it), and do a thing. None of the results are particularly bothersome, except #1-2, which is nearly always 'the bad result' in any table you roll on, and 14-17 lets you Summon a unit - but in Matched Play, Summoning costs points so likely does nothing - but 18...18, gives you another turn after the one you're taking right now. If you have a Skink Starseer or Lord Kroak (who is a Slann, so double force multiply), if you do your order of operations right, you can potentially re-roll into 18s if you feel like it. That one result, while actually kind of hard to get, can break the game if you just manage to pull it off once, or even twice.
If using 'Initiative', you can't get two turns in a row, twice in a row.

Turn 1. Player A goes second.
Turn 2. Player A wins initiative, getting two turns in a row. Player B gets his turn.
Turn 3. Even if Player A wins Initiative again, he didn't get two turns in a row.

An Engine's ability to go twice, is based solely on the player's ability to roll triple 6s.
For players reading this Guide for fighting Seraphon 'Know Your Enemy'-style, if you go first, and there's an Engine on the table, shoot it first. Once you've dealt 5+ Wounds to it, it can no longer roll 18s on its table. Rolling 18s is likely the only reason that your opponent has taken it, and removing that ability, shafts it. It's still a Stegadon, sure. But it's no longer broken. If you go second...You can't really stop your opponent rolling an 18 on Turn 1, can you? :smallfrown:

Battleline
Skinks: 80/10 is good until you see their 6+ Save. Just take heaps, they've still got B10. They also ignore Rend -1, just in case. If you have 20 models, they get +1 To Hit in the shooting phase, if you have 30, +2. Again, another sweet Seraphon case where you get two bonuses instead of just one if you have even MOAR models. In Melee, Skinks are stupid. If your opponent doesn't initiate on them first, when it's your turn to initiate, choose the Skinks, and move them 8" away. Your opponent, now not within 3" of the Skinks, has just lost a combat step. Skinks do not belong in Melee and have a rule that actively prevents them from being in combat, and another rule which hugely benefits their shooting. So, if you've built your Skinks with Clubs instead of Javelins or Boltspitters...WRONG!

Other
Chameleon Skinks: The best Seraphon unit, and arguably one of the best units in the game. 120/5 isn't a lot for what they can do, even if they do only have one Wound. They don't setup. Instead, you can set them up anywhere. Not within 9", not within 5". Anywhere. The only limitation to Chameleon Skinks is the 3" limitation that's part of the game anyway. If the entire unit is in terrain, their Save becomes 3+. In your Hero Phase, you can remove Chameleon Skinks from the board, even if they're in combat. You can then make them reappear anywhere you want in your next turns. Repeat ad nauseum. This trick is great for removing your Skinks from combat, and just have them reappear 3" next to the same unit they were in combat with, and then riddle them with Dartpipes. If you roll a '6' To Hit with a Dartpipe, it does 2 Damage, or 3 Damage against CHAOS DAEMONS.
Show up anywhere. Shoot. Disappear. Show up anywhere. Shoot. Disappear. That's four turns. On the fifth and last turn, just show up on an Objective and get points. If the Skinks can do damage on your last turn, that's a bonus.

Skink Handlers: Only Lord Kroak knows why, but Skink Handlers aren't built into their Artillery like War Machine Crew. You have to pay points if you want your Salamanders and Razordons to be slightly better. That said, your Artillery 'crew' is completely optional, and if you don't want to pay the points, you don't have to. So that's...Something.

Kroxigor: 180/3 is kind of bad. But they do have 4W/4+. Kroxigor get to re-roll 1s To Wound if they're within 3" of SKINKS. So, while they aren't technically Skinks, they're in this part of the Guide for ease-of-use. Kroxigor are fairly decent in combat. They're faster than Saurus Knights for Lord Kroak knows what reason, but, they do have 8" Move, while the cavalry only have 7".

Terradon Riders: Standard Flying Cavalry for 140/3, which is fine, 'cause they have 3 Wounds apiece. What's not fine, is that they only have a 5+ Save, and will fall out of the sky pretty fast unless you bring more than the minimum. Their main use is for their ability to drop rocks, in which case any unit they move over, they can roll a number of dice equal to the number of models in the unit. 4+ To Hit, do D3 Mortal Wounds apiece. Pretty good. Unfortunately, as with all Fliers that do damage in the Movement phase, the main limitation to the attack is that you have to have somewhere to finish your move...That's more than 3" away from enemy models. It's tough, but at 14", Terradons are some of the faster Fliers in the game, unfortunately, as a unit, and not a single model (like a Phoenix), their footprint is actually quite large, especially if you've gone for more than the minimum.
4+, D3 Wounds, is very strong. But a clever opponent, just wont let you pull it off. In addition, post-TGH, you're probably playing with base-to-base rules instead of 'from the model', which is a rule that sucks. In that case, Swooping Dive does nothing.

Ripperdactyl Riders: Flying Cav. again. Except these are your melee ones. Once again, Swooping Dive does basically nothing if you're playing with TGH, which you are, because you're reading this. Ripperdactyls ignore Rend -1, which makes them more survivable than Terradons. In Melee, Ripperdactyls (not the riders) that Hit, generate an extra attack. Post-TGH, attacks do not generate extra attacks. The rules have been changed. Ripperdactyls are even the specific example. Ripperdactyls also come with a neat debuff, that gives the Ripperdactyles 3 Attacks instead of 1 if the target unit is within 2" of a Blot Toad.

Artillery
Salamanders: Salamanders are extremely short ranged Cannons. They make up for their short range by Wounding on 3s instead of 4s, but Cannons have two attacks. But Salamanders are 60 Points, and Cannons are 180. So you get what you pay for. If a unit takes any Wounds from Salamanders' shooting attack, on a 4+, that unit immediately takes another D3 MWs. Suddenly, 60 Points per model seems a bit cheap. If you take Salamanders in units (which you can), suddenly, 180/3 (the comparative cost to a Cannon) doesn't seem bad at all, in fact it's way undercosted. Salamanders that hang around Skink Handlers (40/3) have an extra 4" range (woo!). Remembering only that you don't need multiple sets of Skinks for multiple sets of Salamanders. Skink Handlers will affect all models within 3". Just like how one Engineer can service 3 Cannons at the same time...Somehow.

Razordons: The Objective defenders - they even have a better Save than Salamanders. A Razordon's shooting attack is very short ranged, but, they have the potential for a lot of attacks (especially when taken in multiples). Within 6", their Shooting attack gains Rend -1 (remembering that you can shoot while in combat), and, in addition, when they get Charged, they can 'Overwatch' and make a free shooting attack. Fairly strong unit that also has the potential to be totally useless if your opponent knows what Razordons do. Skink Handlers make Razordons re-roll 1s To Hit.

Behemoths
Troglodon: The Troglodon can attempt to Unbind like a Wizard, even though he isn't one. This is handy because your Behemoth doesn't need to be babysat by a Wizard to throw off Fireballs. That's...About it. It has a shooting attack that if it deals Wounds, it gets +3" to Charge move if it Charges the unit it shot at. But it doesn't have a lot of attacks and has no Rend. The Troglodon is not a strong Behemoth at all. But, at only 200 Points, it's one of the cheaper ones in the game. But, also importantly, the Troglodon isn't even ridden by a HERO. Which is probably why it isn't a Leader, even though it really, really looks like it should be one. So...Whatever. Pass.

Bastilodon: Yeah, buddy! 8 Wounds, 3+ Save. Doesn't sound like a lot for a Behemoth. But Bastiladons ignore Rend. Not -1, not -2. All of it. In addition, they have a 4++ against MWs which makes them stupid strong. Bastilodons also have a reasonably ranged shooting attack, with 2D6 shots, Rend -1 and 2 Damage per shot, doing extra damage to CHAOS DAEMONS, because Seraphon gonna Seraphon. In each Combat Phase, pick up to 6 units, nominate each unit a number, and roll 12 dice, each dice that corresponds to the number-marked unit, deals a MW to that unit. That is...Ridiculously strong. Since it happens in your opponent's turn as well. Of course, it gets less good when you have less than six units around your Bastiladon, but, either way, any unit you want to kill only has a 16% chance to get hit anyway. Anyway, Novas that deal Mortal Wounds are always going to be strong. Especially on such a resilient model that can just plough down the board without worrying overmuch about being shot at because ignore Rend and 4++ against MWs. So it's not like it even cares about being Fireballed. Make you sure cast Mystic Shield on it, for a 2+ Save that ignores Rend. Make sure you have a Slann around to make saves re-rollable.

Stegadon: As Monsters go, it's pretty strong - but the Bastiladon is better. The Stegadon is best used as a force multiplier for SKINKS. Skinks within 5" of a Stegadon can re-roll Battleshock (aren't Skinks Bravery 10? Why are they even taking Battleshock?), and Skinks within range can move an extra D6" in the Hero phase and that unit can re-roll 1s to hit until your next Hero phase. How much do you love Skinks? If you're building a full Skink army (+/- a Slann, who benefits from having Skinks around...Though, fair's fair, if you have a Slann, and didn't build your Stegadon as an Engine of the Gods, you're doing it wrong), then Stegadons are where it's at. If you've got more Saurus than you know what to do with, and need something that hits like a truck, you're better off with a Bastilodon or Carnosaur...Although if you're hard into Saurus, you should already have a Carnosaur.

Grand Alliance: Order
Bloodclaw Starhost
Oldblood, 3 Saurus Heroes, 3+ units of Saurus. All of the Saurus not-Heroes, get an extra bite attack. In addition, all Heroes from this Battalion within 20" of the Oldblood can use their Command Abilities even when they aren't the General. This is one of the places where Seraphon Allegiance is nice to have; Saurus Knights and Saurus Guard become Battleline which makes this Formation really, really good. If you're going hard into Saurus, there really isn't a reason not to pay the 100 Points for this Battalion. Having four Saurus Heroes all using their Command Abilities at the same time is well worth it, especially since all Saurus Heroes come stock with 7 Wounds and can't be one-shotted. The only Hero you should avoid is the Eternity Warden, since it doesn't have a Command Ability (and has a dedicated Formation to himself anyway).

Heavenswatch Starhost
Skink Starseer and two other Skink Heroes - including Troglodons, which aren't even HEROES - and then pretty much any Skink units you want. The Starseer lets a unit re-roll 1s To Hit, and Starseers are horrendous lynchpin Heroes since they only have 5 Wounds. But, that's not why you take this Battalion. In your Hero phase, each MONSTER from this Battalion heals a Wound. It doesn't sound like much, but if you have three or even four Monsters per turn regenerating a Wound each, it starts to add up. The Skink Heroes in this Formation are taxes, and what you're really doing with this Formation is spamming Monsters - that just happen to have Skinks on them.

Order Battletome: Seraphon
Sunclaw Starhost
Sunblood and Saurus Warriors. The Warriors get an extra bite attack, and gain Rend -1 on their Melee weapons. 80 Points is a lot for such a minor bonus. But smoke 'em if you've got 'em, I guess.

Eternal Starhost
Eternity Warden and Saurus Guard. Again, having Seraphon Allegiance is nice because the Guard become Battleline. All Guard within range of the Warden get +1 to Saves. In addition, if the Guard don't Move or Charge in your turn, their Polearms do D3 Damage instead of 1. The second part doesn't require the Warden to be alive, the Warden just helps the Guard to survive when they get Charged or are in otherwise protracted combats. Once the second turn of combat hits, the Guard become powerhouses as they start annihilating units left and right. Remembering that the Warden already has an ability that gives Guard an extra attack just by standing around. So your Saurus Guard have three attacks each, and on the second turn of combat, they do D3 Damage each. Brutal. Remembering that a Warden works great as a lynchpin Hero since he has 7 Wounds and doesn't actually suck.

Firelance Starhost
Scar-Veteran and Saurus Knights. Again, Knights become Battleline when you try hard. Knights get +3" to their Charge range, and on 6s, do two Mortal Wounds instead of 1. Not bad for 60 Points. It would be a lot better if you could somehow improve the Knights' armour save, and you should definitely look into it.

Shadowstrike Starhost
The Battalion that makes everyone hate Seraphon, and you should abuse it if you can. A Skink Starpriest or Priest, Skinks or Chameleon Skinks, and Terradons or Ripperdactyls. If you actually bother to setup this Battalion (don't), they can 'Scout' 2D6", but no-one cares about that. Flying units in the Battalion (remembering that a Skink Priest can Fly with the right wrong Cloak) can choose not to Deploy, but instead setup anywhere outside 3" on Turn 1...And then Charge. Remembering that Chameleon Skinks don't need to Fly, since they do the same thing anyway. Turn 1, Chameleon Skinks and Ripperdactyls show up. Chameleon Skinks riddle whatever unit you want with Darts, and Ripperdactyls Charge and make a mess out of anything. Turn 1, dominate, and for 120 Points this Battalion is absolutely worth it, and you should definitely do it if you hate everyone and you want everyone to hate you. The only thing 'wrong' with this Formation - if you do it right - is that it doesn't have any Battleline in it, but I'm sure you can work it out.

Thunderquake Starhost
So you want to play Monsters, but don't want to pay Skink taxes? Fine. Be that way. Engine of the Gods or Troglodon, x2 Stegadons or Bastiladons, and a tax unit of not-really-Skinks. Like the Heavenswatch, each Monster in the Battalion heals a Wound per Hero phase, but heals D3 instead, if within range of a SLANN. Which you should definitely do if you have the points. Which you do, because this Battalion has 3 Behemoths and is therefore unplayable in low points games anyway. Each Hero phase, pick a thing; Re-roll To Hit and Charges, or re-roll To Wound and Saves. Bastiladons are laughing forever as now they can't be killed; Re-rollable 3+ Save (remember your Mystic Shields because who needs friends?) that ignores Rend, and 4++ against MWs, and regenerating 1/D3 Wounds per turn. Do you like Dinosaurs Celestial Daemons?

Starbeast Constellation
Everything. Which basically makes it unplayable. So don't worry about it.

[Cheesegear]

Went up against a Celestial Hurricanum today. That thing is insane.

In related news...


Dwarfs. With a Celestial Hurricanum.


I got my first 'GFY' today playing AoS, when I paired my Celestial Hurricanum (Mystic Shield) with a (proxied) Bastilodon, because I wanted to see if the combo worked before I put money down. In no uncertain terms, I was told that if I have a Celestial Hurricanum and Bastilodon in the same army, I will not get games. I can have one or the other, but not both.

[JNAProductions]

You know, my friends all say that Sigmar is better because there are no broken combos, so you can play whatever you want, unlike 40k, where it's hard to get games as Eldar.

Bull hockey.

[Requizen]

In related news...I got my first 'GFY' today playing AoS, when I paired my Celestial Hurricanum (Mystic Shield) with a (proxied) Bastilodon, because I wanted to see if the combo worked before I put money down. In no uncertain terms, I was told that if I have a Celestial Hurricanum and Bastilodon in the same army, I will not get games. I can have one or the other, but not both.

I can believe it. I haven't played against a Bastilodon yet, but two hard to kill things with long range, high damage attacks would be enough to make me tear out my hair. The Hurricanum just insta-deleting Be'lakor because he had the gall to be within 28" put that thing on my short list.

I picked up my Starter Set yesterday, along with a box of Judicators and a Paladin box - serving the multi-purpose of building Protectors, giving Grandhammers to the Liberator squads, and putting a Starsoul Mace in the Retributors. Also picking up a Start Collecting Stormcast tomorrow. A nice cheap way to build the core of the army, will round it out with Decimators at some point, some characters, and probably a unit of Fulminators later. Dunno if I'll go into adding more Order on just yet, I want to stick to the Lightning Lads for a while.

The one question I have, though - it's possible to turn the regular Liberators into Crossbow Judicators using the leftovers from making the Bow dudes. This would let me get a head start on building my Skyborne Slayers, but I'm still wary of the the Crossbow's usefulness. Though, I'm also not sure I need 3 units of Liberators instead of 2 plus 2 Judicators. Do you think I should go ahead with the conversion or just get another box of Bows?

[Cheesegear]

I can believe it. I haven't played against a Bastilodon yet, but two hard to kill things with long range, high damage attacks would be enough to make me tear out my hair. The Hurricanum just insta-deleting Be'lakor because he had the gall to be within 28" put that thing on my short list.

The thing is, I wasn't even casting Comet, I was casting Mystic Shield.
I already knew that Slann+Bastilodon is fair broke, because I can read, but it roughly amounts to the same thing with a CH. You trade your eggs in one basket on the Bastilodon, for a dual threat.


but I'm still wary of the the Crossbow's usefulness.

As has been drilled into me to death with Thunderers - who suck - check range. Unless you're opponent has first turn and is either very fast, or Infiltrating/Deep Striking, short-ranged weapons just aren't that good if you happen to go first.

Start 24" away from enemy units. If you're going first, your opponent hasn't had their Movement phase yet, and hasn't Infiltrated yet. Move however far you can move, add the range of your weapon, if your Move+Range doesn't equal 24" or slightly over, your unit does nothing for the first turn. If you're playing an opposing gunline, it's highly likely that your opponent wont move forwards, and may not Infiltrate 'til later, and continue to pound you.

If you go second, <24" threat range becomes less detrimental, but it's still annoying.

[Requizen]

The thing is, I wasn't even casting Comet, I was casting Mystic Shield.
Nah it's not comet, it's Storm of Shemtek. If you can't chunk it down to the lower end of wounds, you just take a dumb amount of MWs as soon as it has range. Just crazy.



As has been drilled into me to death with Thunderers - who suck - check range. Unless you're opponent has first turn and is either very fast, or Infiltrating/Deep Striking, short-ranged weapons just aren't that good if you happen to go first.

Start 24" away from enemy units. If you're going first, your opponent hasn't had their Movement phase yet, and hasn't Infiltrated yet. Move however far you can move, add the range of your weapon, if your Move+Range doesn't equal 24" or slightly over, your unit does nothing for the first turn. If you're playing an opposing gunline, it's highly likely that your opponent wont move forwards, and may not Infiltrate 'til later, and continue to pound you.

If you go second, <24" threat range becomes less detrimental, but it's still annoying.
Except I'd probably be using them in the Skyborne Slayers, where they do have Deep Strike. So... Potentially useful I think. Will probably proxy them a bit to test.

[Cheesegear]

Guide to the Order Grand Alliance
Part III; Fyreslayers

Disclaimer; These Guides will not feature any references to Compendium/Legacy units. You can't buy them anymore, so it would be disingenuous to recommend them in any capacity. If you've already got some, then you probably already know how good they are.

Auric Runefather on Magmadroth (B): 320 Points for a Leader, Behemoth that sucks. It's breath weapon gets worse the less models that are in the target unit, which means it doesn't 'clean up' when it gets to chaff, and it's tail attack does the same thing. When it takes damage, you get to do Mortal Wounds against enemies that dealt the wound on a dice roll. But what sucks, is that friendly units also take damage. So it's a Monster that hurts your own team. If you think that this model isn't trash, I've got news for you. Pick a unit in combat with the Magmadroth and subtract D3 Bravery. That's alright. The Weapon-breaker ability is great because it debuffs HEROES and MONSTERS, and those are generally the more scary things that you'll have to deal with. Command Ability: All FYRESLAYER units within a large range re-roll 1s on saves. If you actually care about Fyreslayers, you'll probably want his Command Ability, unfortunately, the Magmadroth is so trash that it's hardly worth it...And we've still got more.

Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth (B): Magmadroths. Are. Trash. At least this one is 100 Points less than the above. This is your PRIEST for Fyreslayers, and he hands out a buff that targets a single FYRESLAYER unit giving them re-rolls To Wound. Once per game, he buffs all Fyreslayers within range. Magmadroth is trash. Buffs aren't that good. At least for a Behemoth, this one barely scrapes over 200 Points.

Auric Runeson on Magmadroth (B): Still with the trash Magmadroth. The guy on top isn't great, either. The Runeson's ranged weapon does D3+2 Damage to MONSTERS, but it's only one Attack with only Rend -1. So, it's great when it works. Problem is, it wont work. The one bonus the Runeson gets worth talking about, is that he gets to re-roll 1s To Hit against one unit per turn. So maybe your Javelin will actually hit a Monster. Command Ability: All FYRESLAYERS within range roll 3D6b2" for Charges. Decent. But saves from the Runefather are probably more important.
Joke Rule That Sucks: These rules were supposed to go away because everyone hated them. Evidently not. The same unit that you re-roll 1s To Hit against, takes +1 to their Battleshock tests at the end of the turn, if you insult your opponent's models. While the entry says that you're insulting your opponent's models, there is no way in Hell that your opponent isn't going to take it as an insult to themselves. This rule is stupid. First, because 'joke rules' shouldn't exist in the first place, but, more importantly, this rule actively gives incentives to the player when they get mad and/or insults the opponent's models. This rule is so anti-social I need to punch whoever wrote the entry in the head. Don't they understand anything? :smallsigh:

Point is, Magmadroths suck.

Auric Runefather: 6W/4+, not bad. But not having 7 Wounds puts it on the back foot immediately. Same deal as the one on the Magmadroth, but doesn't have a Magmadroth, so is therefore 200 Points less. Command Ability: FYRESLAYERS within range can pile-in 5" instead of 3". Not great. But, the other bonus is that he gains a 4+ Ward Save, which actually means a Fyreslayer within 3" takes the Wound instead. This isn't bad, per se. But having it tied to Generalship is pretty crappy, because you aren't interested in 5" pile-in moves because you're already in combat, and maybe you want to use Inspiring Presence that turn, so you don't get your 4++. '4+ bodyguard save' should have been tied into the base abilities, like a Seraphon Eternity Warden.

Auric Runesmiter: 5W/4+ - getting into 'bad' territory now. His PRIEST ability is handing out the same re-roll To Wound buff, but he can't buff everything once per game like the one on the Magmadroth. Instead, he gets Magmic Tunnelling, which is actually useful. The Runesmither and one other FYRESLAYER unit, can Infiltrate (9"). As Duardin, Fyreslayers have the grand Move total of 4", with no Flying units, and, even more suckier, none of their units come with Banners or Musicians to give better Run moves or double Movement. If you want to play 'just Fyreslayers' (you're in for a bad time), an Auric Runesmiter (or two, or three) is invaluable. Unfortunately, Runesmiters come in the Magmadroth kit and that may as well be money down the drain. :smallfrown:

Auric Runeson: Again, insulting your opponent's models gives you bonuses. This can't possibly end badly. The Runeson has the same Javelin attack that kills MONSTERS, but, without the 12" Move of the Magmadroth, the 12" Range on the Javelin isn't so hot...I think I just implied you might actually want a Magmadroth...I feel dirty...Fortunately, if you're not on a Magmadroth, your Command Ability is better; All FYRESLAYER units within range can re-roll To Wound against models with 3 or more Wounds on their profile. So, a Runeson - not on Magmadroth - is how you actually kill Monsters.

Grimwrath Berzerker: And we're back to 6W. Has a 6++, with +1 for each enemy unit within 3" (i.e. in combat range). If he dies in the combat phase, on a 2+, he doesn't die 'til the end of said phase, which means that if he hasn't activated yet, he can still activate and make attacks, even if he's technically dead. After the Berzerker makes his attacks, roll a dice. If you get less than the number of Wounds you dealt, attack again. At 100 Points, with a natural Ward Save, a Berzerker isn't even terrible.

Auric Runemaster: What. The. Hell. Whoever wrote Fyreslayers needs a punch in the head. I'm not even kidding. After Deployment, your opponent gets to pick one of their units. Their unit re-rolls 1s To Wound. WHY AM I TAKING MODELS THAT BUFF MY OPPONENT!? THIS MAKES NO SENSE! I HATE EVERYTHING! But it's not all bad, right? If the Runemaster gets within 10" of that unit, all FYRESLAYERS get +1 Attack (on any weapon) against that unit. But, say, if your opponent shoots the Runemaster, long before he ever gets anywhere near 10", you get nothing. His PRIEST power deals damage to models in terrain. Nobody cares.
I checked the App to make sure there were no discrepancies with the printed version and the (always-updated) digital version. Nope. The Runemaster actually is that terrible. Carry on.

Battlesmith: Your TOTEM. FYRESLAYERS around the Icon automatically pass Battleshock and can re-roll Saves. More importantly, he doesn't have to not-Move to do it, either. This is a lynchpin Hero of the highest order. Unfortunately, only has 5 Wounds and is a ripe target for a Cannon or getting D6 Mortal Wounds thrown at. If the Battlesmith dies, a Fyreslayer unit within range may choose not to move for the rest of game, and they get re-rolls To Hit and To Wound. So, if your Battlesmith is going to die (and your opponent has no reason not to focus him down immediately), make sure he dies on an Objective, so the the unit you choose not to move for the rest of the game, is actually doing something useful. Noting that choosing not to move for the rest of the game is entirely optional, just that you wont be able to take it back.

If you're going 'Grand Alliance' mode (and there's no reason that you shouldn't), none of these Leaders are particularly helpful to other armies. All of their buffs only affect Fyreslayer units.

Battleline
Vulkite Berzerkers: 80/5 160/10 isn't good. 5+ Save, 6+ Ward. Their Ward save gets better if you have 10 or more models, and better again if you have 20. So, a full unit is looking like 400/25, which definitely isn't worth it, even if they do have a 4+ Ward. Overall, not a strong unit.

Other
Auric Hearthguard: 100/5 is pretty bad. Fortunately, they're not bad as far as Fyreslayers go (i.e; Everything sucks). Hearthguard have 'Handguns' with 2 shots each, and, if they do damage to a MONSTER, on a 5+, said Monster halves its Move and -1 To Hit. In addition, Hearthguard get +1 To Hit (with all their weapons) if they're standing next to a FYRESLAYER HERO. Since Hearthguard are the only Fyreslayers with a ranged weapon with more than a 9" range, they make perfect additions to a Runesmiter and using Magmic Tunnelling. By standing around the Runesmiter, they'll get +1 To Hit, unfortunately, Runesmiters don't show up 'til the Movement phase - after the Hero phase - which means on the turn you arrive, the Runesmiter will have missed his Hero Phase, and you wont get re-rolls To Wound until next turn.
If you have Fyreslayer Allegiance (and there really isn't a reason why you should...), then Hearthguard are Battleline. It's probably a better choice than Vulkites.

Hearthguard Berzerkers: Only barely better than the Vulkite Berzerkers. Fortunately, they aren't that much more expensive. They come with a 6+ Ward, that turns into 4+ if they stand next to a FYRESLAYER HERO. So grab your Battlesmith, and give your Berzerkers a 5+rr/4++ to make them last longer. To get your 4++ on Vulkites is going to cost you 320 Points. To get your Berzkers to 4++, you'll probably spend the same amount of points, but you wont suck. Everytime a Berzerker hits with its Poleaxe, on a 3+, the target takes a Mortal Wound, in addition to the Wound it may take from the attack. The Broadaxe Wounds better, has -1 Rend and does two damage. But, on a 3+, the Poleaxe automatically wounds and allows no save, and may do another Damage. It's not even close.
If you have Fyreslayer Allegiance (and there really isn't a reason why you should...), then Hearthguard are Battleline. It's probably a better choice than Vulkites.

Grand Alliance: Order
Lords of the Lodge
Magmadroth (:smallyuk:), Runemaster and Battlesmith, and Hearthguard Berzerkers. Once per battle, add the number of HEROES from this Battalion on the board to your Initiative roll. If you don't use Initiative ('cause it sucks), this does nothing. If the Berzerkers are within 6" from a Hero form this Battalion, they can pile-in and attack twice. Not a great bonus. Especially 'cause Magmadroths are not good and Runemasters are bad with a capital AWFUL.

Forge Brethren
Auric Runesmiter (that's the good one, with the Tunneling) and three units of Hearthguard (those are the good ones, that love Tunneling). 6s to Wound in the combat phase by this Battalion subtract 1 from the save roll for the attack. This is not Rend, it will work against a Bastilodon. In your Hero Phase (remember, you don't get one on the turn you Tunnel), one unit from this Battalion within range of the Runesmiter gets +1 to Saves. This is a fairly strong formation because there are no taxes (unless you put the Runesmiter on a Magmadroth for no reason). If you take two or three of these Battalions, you'll be fine, as Fyreslayer Allegiance will make the Hearthguard Battleline.

Order Battletome: Fyreslayers
This Battletome contains both Battalions from the Grand Alliance book because new Formations for a dedicated book are hard to come up with.

Warrior Kinband
Runeson and three units of Vulkite Berzkers. If the Berzerkers have Throwing Axes, they can throw them twice. They can also pile-in an extra D3". For 40 Points, maybe that's not even worth paying. Runesons - like everything else - really want to be hanging out with Hearthguard.

Grand Fyrd
All three other Battalions, but two Warrior Kinbands just to cover bases. This Battalion sucks. Because it's bonus is so nebulous and stupid that it's not even worth playing.
Declare something that you want to happen during the battle. Your opponent gets to decide if its acceptable. If it's not acceptable, you have to declare something bigger. If you fail your 'oath', a Major Victory counts as Minor, and a Minor Victory counts as a Draw. Your opponent gets to decide whether or not you win, before the battle even starts. This is so stupid that if I wasn't already angry at the writers of Fyreslayers, I might threaten to punch them in the head.

TL;DR
I hate Fyreslayers. I hate them. They have no good models for Generals, their Behemoths are terrible, they have bad Move, which isn't helped by next-to-no ranged weapons. Bad Saves, which is made up for by conditional Ward Saves, their standard Battleline unit is basically terrible (bad Move, bad Saves), and to get their Allegiance Battleline units, you'd have to have Fyreslayer Allegiance, which is just a terrible idea. Everytime you see a Magmadroth, take five seconds to look at a Seraphon Carnosaur, instead. Do you like Duardin? Do you like Dinosaurs Celestial Daemons? Great. Completely ignore the Magmadroth, and invest in a Carnosaur and/or Bastilodon instead. You wont be completely disappointed when your Carnosaur takes a wound, and then deals extra MWs to the friendly models around it, because Carnosaurs aren't terrible and don't have that stupid rule.

Take one Runesmiter, take a unit of Hearthguard (maybe a Battlesmith). You've done it. You have all the Fyreslayer models you need. You're done. Ally them into a real Order army. They probably wont perform as well as other models (e.g; Chameleon Skinks, Shadow Warriors), but if you really, really - no, really - want Fyreslayer models, those are the usable ones.

Sorry kids, but the contempt I feel for Fyreslayers is huge. When it comes to the Order Grand Alliance, I can't put them anywhere except on the bottom rung.

[Drasius]

Fyreslayers are the bad times

Yeah, this gels with what one of our players up here experienced, back when matched played wasn't a thing. We calculated it out and even though he took extra points compared to his opponent, he still got rolled every single match. They're really just that terrible.

ION: Had my first game of AoS, a small skirmish between a skaven warlord + 10x Stormvermin vs some high elf CC hero and 10x Swordmasters. Seemed fun enough. Skaven warlord's command ability is fairly rough, though I strongly suspect that he's going to be a red smear before he gets to use it in larger games. I failed my charge, but then showed why I play daemons with 6/10 5+ saves and my warlord gave the HE dude a thorough drubbing.

[Cheesegear]

[Fyreslayers]'re really just that terrible.

Like, I look at the Dispossessed Duardin, and I see the following;
1. Decent armour saves
2. Proper ranged attacks
3. Battleshock resistance, and
4. Ability to Unbind spells

#4 is kind of crap on Fyreslayers. Your Dwarfs. No, you're DUARDIN PRIESTS. Fyreslayers have Dwarf. Priests. That can't even Unbind. Worst. Dwarfs. Ever.
But, between 4+ or 5+rr Armour Saves and Battleshock resistance, Dispossessed have the same 4" Move as Fyreslayers, but with actual Saves and no Battleshock, by the time Dispossesed make it into Melee, they'll still have models left to fight. That's not even including the fact that Dispossesed get Musicians that give auto-4" on Run moves. So, your Melee unit has no ranged weapons? Cool. It moves 8" this turn, no downside.

You nailed it.

Fyreslayers are the bad times.

[Requizen]

So I bought 2000+ points of Stormcast for 2 lists, both have the same core (Skyborne Slayers) but with a bit of flexibility for the time being.

Skyborne Slayers - 140
Lord Celestant - 100
Judicators (Bows) - 160
Judicators (Crossbows) - 160
Liberators (Shields, Grandhammer on Prime) - 100
Liberators (Shields, Grandhammer on Prime) - 100
Protectors (Starsoul Maces) - 200
Decimators (Starsoul Maces) - 200

Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (Tempest Hammer, Shield) - 220
Knight-Vexillor - 200
Retributors (Starsoul Maces) - 220
Prosecutors with Javelins (Trident on Prime) - 80
Prosecutors with Javelins (Trident on Prime) - 80

1960/2000

Skyborne Slayers - 140
Lord Celestant - 100
Judicators (Bows) - 160
Judicators (Crossbows) - 160
Liberators (Shields, Grandhammer on Prime) - 100
Liberators (Shields, Grandhammer on Prime) - 100
Protectors (Starsoul Maces) - 200
Decimators (Starsoul Maces) - 200

Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (Tempest Hammer, Shield) - 220
Knight-Azyros - 100
Fulminators - 240
Prosecutors with Javelins (Trident on Prime) - 80
Prosecutors with Javelins (Trident on Prime) - 80

Lord-Relictor because points left over - 80

1960/2000

First list is teleport shenanigans with a fast General and the Prosecutors, second is slightly less teleporting but a strong, fast frontline unit in the Fulminators with Azyros supporting for the rerolls. Will probably replace the Relictor in the second list with a Venator once I get him.

And luckily, it all came out to exactly the same amount as I sold the Daemons for. Win/win.

Edit: Should the Protectors and Decimators take Starsoul Maces? Free MWs is great, but their weapon profiles are also pretty good all things considered - both have the potential to put out way more than d3 wounds on a per-model basis if they engage the right target.

[Cheesegear]

1960/2000

Gryph-Hounds are 40 Points.

[Requizen]

Gryph-Hounds are 40 Points.

And once I buy the Lord-Celestant box, he will make a special appearance in pretty much every list.

And I will name him Spot.

[Yaktan]

So, after reading the guide on the Seraphon, I started looking at the pretty dinosaurs on the GW site. I like how the knights look, and think the carnosaurs are quite cool. Then I noticed that the Start Collecting box costs the same as a carnosaur, so I started thinking about what you could do with a couple of those boxes.

After adding the giant death laser this is the list I came up with.



Old-Blood on Carnosaur--320
Astrolith Bearer--160
Starpriest--100
Starpriest--100


Warriors x10--100
Warriors x10--100

Bastilodon--300

Salamander x2--120

Firespear Battalion--60
Scar-veteran on Carnosaur--260
Knights x5--120
Knights x5--120
Knights x5--120

Total: 1980


What does the playground think?

[Requizen]

So, after reading the guide on the Seraphon, I started looking at the pretty dinosaurs on the GW site. I like how the knights look, and think the carnosaurs are quite cool. Then I noticed that the Start Collecting box costs the same as a carnosaur, so I started thinking about what you could do with a couple of those boxes.

After adding the giant death laser this is the list I came up with.



Old-Blood on Carnosaur--320
Astrolith Bearer--160
Starpriest--100
Starpriest--100


Warriors x10--100
Warriors x10--100

Bastilodon--300

Salamander x2--120

Firespear Battalion--60
Scar-veteran on Carnosaur--260
Knights x5--120
Knights x5--120
Knights x5--120

Total: 1980


What does the playground think?
I like it. That was pretty close to what I was going between when I was deciding SE or Seraphon, 2 Start Collecting sets are just so valuable. Even if you don't even use the Warriors, you're getting so many free Knights.

Since you are Seraphon Allegiance and therefore Knights are Battleline, plus the Astrolith Bearer boosting casting, you could also put the Warriors off the list and have 220 points of Summoning, bringing them on the board if you need them or having something else. Convert the remaining Knight into a Scar Veteran on Cold One, and you can also Summon him, so there's a bit of flexibility afforded based on what you need.

Otherwise it looks solid! The Seraphon SC is an extremely good box for new players.

[Cheesegear]

I talked smack about Fyreslayers sucking. So the Blackshirt challenged me to a game, 'cause he has Fyreslayers.
He was very quick to add in 'No Compendium units', so...Whatever.

Dispossessed
Warden King - 120 Points
Runelord - 80 Points

Warriors (x30); Axes and Shields, Runic Icon - 300 Points
Longbeards (x10); Axes and Shields - 140 Points
Longbeards (x10); Axes and Shields - 140 Points

Ironbreakers (x10); Drakefire Pistol and Cinderblast Bomb - 160 Points

Ironweld Arsenal
Cogsmith - 100 Points
Cannon - 180 Points
Cannon - 180 Points
Steam Tank - 300 Points

Stormcast Eternals
Knight-Azyros - 100 Points

Swifthawk Agents
Shadow Warriors (x10) - 200 Points

Total: 2000 Points
x4 Leaders
x3 Battleline
x2 Artillery
x1 Behemoth

Fyreslayers
Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth - 220 Points
Grimwrath Berzerker - 100 Points
Battlesmith - 100 Points

Vulkite Berzerkers (x20) - 320 Points

Warscroll Battalion; Forge Brethren - 80 Points
Auric Runesmiter - 100 Points
Auric Hearthguard (x5) - 100 Points
Auric Hearthguard (x5) - 100 Points
Auric Hearthguard (x5) - 100 Points

Order Serpentis
War Hydra - 240 Points

Shadowblades
Assassin - 80 Points

Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Castellant - 100 Points
Judicators (x5) - 160 Points
Judicators (x5) - 160 Points
Gryph-Houd - 40 Points

Total: 2000 Points
x6 Leaders
x3 Battleline
x0 Artillery
x2 Behemoths

I declare that my General is my Steam Tank. Check it, your General is any model you want. Doesn't have to be a Leader, doesn't even need to be a HERO. True facts. Basically you give any model you want, Inspiring Presence for free. Seems legit. Especially since I built my list correctly and have plans in place (see; Longbeards, below).

I had less units that the Blackshirt, so I went first. The Shadow Warriors 'scouted' into forward terrain. Knight-Azyros, the Red Lantern, Flew forwards 12", and just had to roll a 2+ on his Run dice to not screw everything up. I rolled a '5'. Even better. 12+5" = 17", meaning the Blackshirt's DZ is only 7" away, and many units are in range to get annihilated. I move forwards with the rest of my army.
The Red Lantern says "Shoot this idiot." The Cogsmith says "You got it, chief." Two Cannons and a Steam Tank later (FIRE EVERYTHING!1!), the last Wound on the Magmadroth, is, of course, taken by the Tank Commander's Long Rifle. The Magmadroth explodes - because it sucks - and deals 2 Mortal Wounds to the Lord-Castellant. The Red Lantern gives a thumbs up. The Tank Commander gives a thumbs up. The Cogsmith gives a thumbs up. Opposing General down. Turn 1. Job's a good'un. My Shadow Warriors put a couple of wounds on the Battlesmith.

A unit of Hearthguard and the Runesmiter show up, and melt holes in one of my Cannons. Vulkite Berzerkers charge my Red Lantern, and rip him limb-from-limb, but who cares? He already did the thing.

In my Hero Phase, my Longbeards say Warden Kings suck because they only have 5 Wounds. This lets my DISPOSSESSED HERO use his Command Ability, even when he's not the General - which he isn't - 'cause he needs to prove himself or some nonsense. I take re-rolls To Wound against the Vulkite Berzerkers, and my Steam Tank softens the Vulkites right before I Charge my Ironbreakers into them, while my Warriors charge the Hearthguard and Runesmiter. I know I should be dealing with the Hydra, but it regenerates 3 Wounds a turn, I'm down a Cannon, and my opponent still hasn't revealed the Assassin.

The Grimwrath Berzerker charges the Shadow Warriors. Fortunately, my opponent activates his Berzerkers first to try and break my Ironbreakers (spoiler alert; he doesn't), so I ditch that combat and activate my Shadow Warriors first. I dump over 15 attacks into the Berzerker, and I kill him, but he does that thing where he doesn't 'die' 'til the end of the phase, and kills my Aelfs. Point is, I probably wouldn't have been able to kill the Zerk if I hadn't attacked first.

Overall, the battle was messy. I couldn't kill his Hydra, and he couldn't kill my Steam Tank. I cut huge chunks out of his army, but he couldn't deal with 4+rr Saves. After I squashed his Infiltrating Hearthguard like bugs, he had nothing that could combat my Cogsmith & Cannon, where I removed 5-6 models per turn. I'm fairly certain that my opponent will always be able to deal with one Cannon, but rarely two, and especially not with a Steam Tank also.

Play of the match came when the Assassin materialised from behind or underneath the Gryph-Hound or however an Assassin does it. I had to call BS, but nope. Turns out rules are rules, and 'a unit' is anything. I didn't target the Gryph-Hound, ever, because I had no units that the Gryph-Hound would affect, so I left it alone. I think the plan is to Gryph-Hound whatever comes out of Infiltrate, and then, after Gryphdog has used his welcome, Charge the Infiltrating unit with Gryphdog, and unleash an Assassin...Because it's funny? :smallconfused: Did a number on me though. 6 attacks, all Hit, all Wound, then because I Charged that turn, I didn't get to re-roll my Saves, and the Assassin gets to activate whenever it wants - even if its my turn to activate - and just demolish. I failed four, 4+ Saves from six.

Ultimately, it wasn't even a close game, not really. I had a lot of points left on the board at the end, but, my ultimate goal, was to simply target down all of the Blackshirt's Fyreslayers and make sure he had none on the board by the end of the game. Because screw Fyreslayers, that's why. Again, I can't stress enough how important it is for a General to have more than 6 or 7 Wounds, because people like me, will do exactly what I did, and a Magmadroth has 12 Wounds, and I still BALEETED! it on Turn 1.

[Drasius]

Played an actual 1k game of AoS today. Took the Verminus warscroll thingy plus a grey seer.


120 - Gey Seer - General
100 - Warlord
180 - 30x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
280 - 20x Stormvermin
60 - 1x Warpfire Thrower
80 - 1x Ratling Cannon
60 - 1x Poisoned Wind Mortar

1000

against a Tomb Kings force


1x Tomb King on Chariot - General
1x Wizard/Priest thingy
20x Skellies
6x Archer Chariots
1x Bone Giant
1x Scorpion thingy


I played like crap and lost, but confirmed that:
- 20x stormvermin with a warlord buff handing out ~60 odd attacks a turn hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's just flat out deletes things
- Clanrats suck, even in big units, but make a good screen/chaff in min squads. As such, there's never a reason to bring more than the min amount of battleline clanrats
- A 6" move is insufficient with minimal shooting in the army
- Grey Seers aren't worth 120 points
- I hate playing Death Armies
- If you're not dealing 20+ wounds a turn, you might as well not bother
- Ratling Cannons are decent
- Hiding weapons teams 3.5" into a block of infantry is dirty
- Poisoned Wind mortars are swingy as hell, but can be devastatingly brutal when they work
- Realmgates are the worst
- Monsters and deepstrikers are the best
- Still having your models on 20mm square bases allows for a disgusting amount of attacks with 1" weapon range base to base.

I think I might very much like to proxy a warpgrinder team to go with the stormvermin, even if they would "only" be hitting on 3's

Next 1k might be

100 - Warlord
60 - 10x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
280 - 20x Stormvermin
140 - Doomwheel
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon

1000


Play of the match came when the Assassin materialised from behind or underneath the Gryph-Hound or however an Assassin does it. I had to call BS, but nope. Turns out rules are rules, and 'a unit' is anything. I didn't target the Gryph-Hound, ever, because I had no units that the Gryph-Hound would affect, so I left it alone. I think the plan is to Gryph-Hound whatever comes out of Infiltrate, and then, after Gryphdog has used his welcome, Charge the Infiltrating unit with Gryphdog, and unleash an Assassin...Because it's funny?



Master of Disguise:
Instead of setting up Shadowblade normally, you can place him to one side and say that he is set up in hiding. At the start of any combat phase you can reveal Shadowblade; set him up within 1" of any of your Exiles units. He can then pile in and attack, even if it is your opponent’s turn to select a unit to attack with.

Bolding mine. Was he within 1" of an Exile unit? If not, then while he can hide anywhere, he can't ever come out unless it's within 1" of an exile unit (in this case, the War Hydra was the only option)

[Requizen]

I talked smack about Fyreslayers sucking. So the Blackshirt challenged me to a game, 'cause he has Fyreslayers.
He was very quick to add in 'No Compendium units', so...Whatever.
...
Ultimately, it wasn't even a close game, not really. I had a lot of points left on the board at the end, but, my ultimate goal, was to simply target down all of the Blackshirt's Fyreslayers and make sure he had none on the board by the end of the game. Because screw Fyreslayers, that's why. Again, I can't stress enough how important it is for a General to have more than 6 or 7 Wounds, because people like me, will do exactly what I did, and a Magmadroth has 12 Wounds, and I still BALEETED! it on Turn 1.
The hatred is real :smallbiggrin:

Played an actual 1k game of AoS today. Took the Verminus warscroll thingy plus a grey seer.


120 - Gey Seer - General
100 - Warlord
180 - 30x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
280 - 20x Stormvermin
60 - 1x Warpfire Thrower
80 - 1x Ratling Cannon
60 - 1x Poisoned Wind Mortar

1000

against a Tomb Kings force


1x Tomb King on Chariot - General
1x Wizard/Priest thingy
20x Skellies
6x Archer Chariots
1x Bone Giant
1x Scorpion thingy


I played like crap and lost, but confirmed that:
- 20x stormvermin with a warlord buff handing out ~60 odd attacks a turn hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's just flat out deletes things
- Clanrats suck, even in big units, but make a good screen/chaff in min squads. As such, there's never a reason to bring more than the min amount of battleline clanrats
- A 6" move is insufficient with minimal shooting in the army
- Grey Seers aren't worth 120 points
- I hate playing Death Armies
- If you're not dealing 20+ wounds a turn, you might as well not bother
- Ratling Cannons are decent
- Hiding weapons teams 3.5" into a block of infantry is dirty
- Poisoned Wind mortars are swingy as hell, but can be devastatingly brutal when they work
- Realmgates are the worst
- Monsters and deepstrikers are the best
- Still having your models on 20mm square bases allows for a disgusting amount of attacks with 1" weapon range base to base.

I think I might very much like to proxy a warpgrinder team to go with the stormvermin, even if they would "only" be hitting on 3's

Next 1k might be

100 - Warlord
60 - 10x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
280 - 20x Stormvermin
140 - Doomwheel
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon

1000
Tomb Kings are considered pretty darn good at the moment, especially Chariots which he appeared to have quite a few of.

I like the new list! I think WLCs are a bit RNG-heavy for my taste, but hey you're playing Skaven so it kinda comes with the territory.

[Cheesegear]

Bolding mine. Was he within 1" of an Exile unit? If not, then while he can hide anywhere, he can't ever come out unless it's within 1" of an exile unit (in this case, the War Hydra was the only option)

If he was using the Dark Elf Rules, that would be true. He's using the Shadowblade Assassin rules from Grand Alliance: Order, and the rule is Hidden Murderer, not Master of Disguise.

It's different. (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-shadowblade-assassin-en.pdf) :smallwink:

[Yaktan]

I like it. That was pretty close to what I was going between when I was deciding SE or Seraphon, 2 Start Collecting sets are just so valuable. Even if you don't even use the Warriors, you're getting so many free Knights.

Since you are Seraphon Allegiance and therefore Knights are Battleline, plus the Astrolith Bearer boosting casting, you could also put the Warriors off the list and have 220 points of Summoning, bringing them on the board if you need them or having something else. Convert the remaining Knight into a Scar Veteran on Cold One, and you can also Summon him, so there's a bit of flexibility afforded based on what you need.

Otherwise it looks solid! The Seraphon SC is an extremely good box for new players.

Is there something in the Battletome about summoning? Because on the warscrolls, it only gives the summon spells to Slaan, not all Seraphon wizards.

Also, I was considering going with Order Allegiance for the artifacts.

[Cheesegear]

Because on the warscrolls, it only gives the summon spells to Slaan, not all Seraphon wizards.

That is correct.

[Yaktan]

And I just realized you need 3 battleline for 2k, so there goes my plan for artifacts. Ah well, I will have to be content with death lasers.

[Requizen]

Had 1000p Stormcast Eternals vs Ironjawz last night.

Lord-Celestant on Dracoth (G)
Lord-Celestant
Liberators
Judicators (Bows)
Fulminators
Prosecutors with Javelins
Prosecutors with Javelins

Megaboss
Warchanter
Ardboyz (2 weapons)
Ardboyz (Greatweapons)
Brutes
Gore-Gruntas

Rolled mission 2, the one with 4 objectives. I tried to spread out my force to threaten both my objectives and make a play for both of his (stupid) and he centralized his forces to get the most out of Rampaging Destroyers and Waaagh! (smart) He finished deploying first and decided to take second turn (very smart).

I misplayed quite a bit in my first turn. I got one unit of Prosecutors 18" away from his Gore-Gruntas, I thought between them and the Judicators I should have been able to chunk down the unit so it wasn't super scary on the charge. Unfortunately I only brought one down to a single wound with all the shooting, leaving me in a very bad position. I also moved my Fulminators way away from everything else, hoping to keep them out of charge range so I could counter charge. Would have been smarter to just keep them behind the Liberators. He ended up charging a bunch, Gore-Gruntas killing my Prosecutors in one charge since they got the long range charge for extra damage. He did misuse his Waaagh! though, as he rolled it in the Hero Phase when everything was still clumped up. Might have helped me, but maybe not. His Brutes charged into my Liberators, sending all but the Prime back to Sigmar.

He didn't get the double turn, yay. I whittled down the Gore-Gruntas and Brutes with the shooting, and then the foot Celestant moved in and threw Hammers at the Brutes, bringing them down to 2 models. He charged them afterwards, smashing them to bits handily (though not before they killed the remaining Liberator). Celestant on Dracoth blasted the Gruntas and Boyz with his Lightning Breath and then charged the Gruntas, killing them off as the Dracoth rolled a 6 to wound for 2 attacks, dealing 11 wounds by himself. Angry Dragon. Fulminators failed the charge, my positioning was so so so bad. In retaliation, he charged the a unit of Boyz into the Celestant on Dracoth and the Fulminators each, and the Megaboss fought the foot Celestant, cutting him down in moments. Fulminators do not impress when they don't charge, but the Celestant killed a bunch of Boyz without hesitation.

I go first again. Literally sweating on that one. Boyz on the Celestant get whittled down a bunch, and then flee from massive Battleshock! Boyz on the Fulminators get blasted and do no wounds back, but they keep them locked up, which is bad. Oh his turn, the Megaboss charges in to help against the Fulminators, but one still stands at the end of his turn.

He gets the double turn! Curses! Fulminator dies, nothing else is in range to do anything. I take a gamble - if I can kill his last squad of Boyz and hold 2 objectives, I win Minor Victory no matter what. Unfortunately, the Prosecutors in range kill only one in shooting and fail the 9" charge even with their 3d6" charge roll. Bad. Celestant runs onto an objective.

I don't get the double turn, though I don't know if it would have helped. He moves his Warchanta onto the far objective. His remaining Boyz (only 3 left) and the Megaboss move 3" away from the Prosecutors... and the Megaboss rolls a 2 to charge! Boyz don't have enough to kill the Prosecutors, though I kill none back. In my turn, he does only 1 wound to them. Javelin Prosecutors continue to be disappointing in melee as well, but that doesn't matter. Turn 5, game ends.

We each control 2 objectives. I've killed 540 worth of units (Gruntas, Ardboyz, Brutes) and he's killed Liberators, the Lord-Celestant, Fulminators, and one unit of Prosecutors, which adds up to... 520!

Minor Victory for Sigmar this day!

Extremely close game. I misplayed a lot - I never moved the Judicators, and they could have held the point they were on and still shot at least a couple arrows, they did nothing on the last two turns. I positioned poorly as well. He misused a couple rules, and also lost a couple more Boyz than he should have to Battleshock since he forgot about their banner. So, a few mistakes on both sides, but still not bad.

[Requizen]

Got 2000 points in with my Stormcast this time. Just about done building the models I've bought so far, just some minor conversions to do.


Lord-Celestant on Dracoth
Knight-Vexillor

Prosecutors with Javelins
Prosecutors with Javelins
Retributors (2x Starsoul)

Skyborne Slayers
Lord-Celestant
Judicators (Bows)
Judicators (Crossbows)
Liberators
Liberators
Protectors
Desolators

1960/2000 (still waiting on that Gryph-hound :P)



Frostlord on Stonehorn

Skal
Icebrow Hunter
Frost Sabres
Frost Sabres

Eurlbad
Huskard on Stonehorn
Stonehorn Beastriders
Mournfang Pack
Mournfang Pack

1980/2000


So, I had a few more models than he did.

We rolled Mission 2 (even though I just played it against the last guy), on a table that was much more densely terrain-ed. He won the first roll, and gave his Frostlord reroll 1s to hit and +1 damage on weapons, gave his Hunter the Elixir of Frostwyrm (spew MWs), and the Huskard got the Ice Mammoth Skull Plate (reroll saves against Rend -). Battalions, man. I took the +1 attack and Quicksilver Potion on the Lord-Celestant on Dracoth and Relic Blade on the Foot Celestant (which I forgot to use).

Setup was pretty fast. All my Skyborne Slayers went into "reserve", as did his Hunter and Frost Sabres. I castled up my Vexillor and Retributors in a corner and the Dracoth Celestant and Prosecutors on the other side, while he put everything else nice and centralized. I though my starting board presence was small with 13 models, but he had 7 on the table!

Obviously he went first, and did what Destruction does - he ran up everything, and popped the Hunter and kitties out 9" away from my Dracoth Celestant. I figured too late that I should have bubbled the Javelins around the Celestant, but it was too late. He did a couple MWs with the Elixir of Frostwyrm, and then charged the Hunter and 2 cats into the Celestant and another 2 into a unit of Prosecutors. I popped Quicksilver and smashed his Hunter down to 2 wounds remaining, and he did 1 damage in return and killed 2 Prosecutors on the other combat (who did no wounds in retaliation). Passed that Battleshock with the nice Order reroll! I brought down all my Skyborne Slayers onto one of "his" objectives, in a chokepoint where I could put my Liberators in a wall and keep the Judicators and Celestant safe, while putting the Protectors aggressively forward. Teleported the Retributors onto one of the Mournfang units, and shuffled around the free Prosecutor squad. The Prosecutors and Dracoth Celestant popped the Hunter down in shooting, and the Judicators popped a bunch of wounds into the Huskard (which were halved, sadly). Then, the Protectors did their thing - they charged the Huskard. It's a Monster. 10 attacks got me three 6s to Wound, all of which he failed to save, and I dealt a total of 15 damage with the unit. Which he halved down to 7, but between them and the shooting from the Judicators, it was enough to drop the thing. First Blood! Dracoth Celestant popped the cats he was fighting, and the Protector Prime from the other combat stayed alive a bit longer. Retributors kill off one Mournfang but lose a dude in return.

He wins Initiative. Down 5 models, he's nearly half gone, but my Alpha Strike has been blown and the Retributors didn't do their job as well as I'd hoped. He moves the Beastriders over to help the one Mournfang with the Retributors, and the Frostlord pulls back to the Protectors. The full unit of Mournfang goes toward my wounded (but still standing) Dracoth Celestant. His shooting is ineffective, but his charge erases the Retributors and 4/5 of the Protectors, leaving the last one out of range of combat, boo. I kill off one Mournfang with the Celestant, and kills off the last Prosecutor. His Mournfang rolls a 6 for Battleshock, killing the remaining one on the Celestant! Lucky for me, though I liked my odds of killing him off anyway. In my turn, I move up my Desolators to support the remaining Protector, and leave the Judicators, Liberators, and Foot Celestant castled up on the objective. The Dracoth Celestant and Prosecutors make short work of the remaining Frost Sabres, and the Desolators and Protector ding a couple of wounds off of the Frostlord, but all die in the process. The Spear swinging 4 times at 3+ (rerolling 1s)/3+ with Rend -1 and 4 damage is just nuts, and makes short work of everything.

He gets Initiative again. He's only got 3 models left on the table, but Stonehorns are stupid hard to kill. His Frostlord moves back to the remaining Skyborne Slayers and crushes through the Liberators, while the Beastriders and Mournfang charge the other Liberator unit, evaporating them. I shift up the Prosecutors to shield my Celestant on Dracoth, and they plink off a couple more wounds from his Frostlord. The Bow Judicators make short work of the Mournfang, and the Crossbows show their stuff by putting a bunch of wounds into the Beastriders, along with the Lord-Celestant's hammer cape (HAMMER CAPE!). He likes his odds, and charges the Beastriders, killing off their remaining 3 wounds!

He gets the Initiative once again. The Frostlord is all by his lonesome, but it's more than scary enough to warrant it. He charges the Crossbow Liberators, smashing them to bits. It's down 6 wounds at this point, so I shoot a bunch into him, taking him down to another 2 (he rolled the reroll 1s to save on the Everwinter table, making him very tough). I charge in the Foot Celestant again, but only take him down to 3 remaining and then dying in return.

I get the final Initiative, shooting ineffectively with many stupid whiffs. I don't charge, but just shuffle my Bow Judicators to hold the point (held by model count in this one, so his Behemoth is at a disadvantage). He charges them to death, and the game ends.

He holds one objective, plus one from previously in the game (which, in this mission, means you still hold it. I hold two, since my Knight Vexillor was hanging out on one, smugly doing nothing ever since his teleporting fun times. Then we go to kill points. He's killed 1320 worth of units, I've killed 1380. Minor Victory for Sigmar again! Extremely close, this time.

This was not a list that I was very good against. Liberators and Decimators had no place here, especially since I didn't give the Decimators any Starsoul Maces. I also probably was too cautious with the Dracoth Celestant - if he had gotten the charge on one of the Stonehorns, I probably could have done some real damage with him. But the Protectors evaporating the Huskard was very good, and the Judicators pulled their weight, at least plinking things down. I don't know if I like the Retributor bomb as much. It's cool, sure, but maybe I just rolled poorly because it seemed to lack the punch I needed. Probably not the best army to put it against, though.

Definitely need more practice using the Skyborne Slayers. I think timing is everything - I possibly could have held out on using them, waiting for him to spread out some more, but I was worried about losing all my stuff before that happened.

tl;dr - play safe and to the mission. Also, Stonehorns are probably underpriced considering they effectively have ~24 wounds with the whole halving incoming damage thing and they delete most units that aren't super tanks in one go.

[Cheesegear]

Got annihilated today;

(G) Abhorrant Ghoul King - 100 Points
Crypt Haunter Courtier - 120 Points
Varghulf Courtier - 160 Points

Crypt Ghouls (x10) - 100 Points
Crypt Ghouls (x10) - 100 Points
Crypt Horrors (x9) - 420 Points

Total: 1000 Points

Entire army revolves around bringing back the Crypt Horrors. The Ghoul King packs the Death Ring artefact that lets him come back with D3 Wounds after he dies.

[Requizen]

Got annihilated today;

(G) Abhorrant Ghoul King - 100 Points
Crypt Haunter Courtier - 120 Points
Varghulf Courtier - 160 Points

Crypt Ghouls (x10) - 100 Points
Crypt Ghouls (x10) - 100 Points
Crypt Horrors (x9) - 420 Points

Total: 1000 Points

Entire army revolves around bringing back the Crypt Horrors. The Ghoul King packs the Death Ring artefact that lets him come back with D3 Wounds after he dies.

I've not had the pleasure of going against FEC yet, but that looks absolutely brutal. If you can't take out the Courtiers relatively quickly, that's a pain train with no brakes.

What kind of chaff do you use? I find lately that there is a very real need to have cheap units to soak charges and slow things down. Even though points I spend on Liberators could go towards "better" units, being able to keep even a single charge from hitting my more important units is 200% worth the cost. I've even bumped up one of my units to a 10-man squad just to bubble wrap harder. Stopping one charge gives you another turn to try and pop the Varghulf or Haunter, and then whittling things down actually does something. Even more disgusting with the Death Allegiance, though.

Side note - apparently there will be an "ITC" for AoS from the folks over at Frontline pretty soon, very excited if that's true. They've done quite a bit for the 40k scene (whether people agree with them or not), so their support of AoS is only a good thing in my book.

[Cheesegear]

Well, the global campaign is over, and AoS in my local store shows no signs of slowing down. People who already knew how to break the game if they ever bothered to pick up AoS, have now picked up AoS, and have finally bought their armies after six weeks. There's an AoS tournament happening this weekend in my area (I'm not going), and then another - better - one in October. So, yeah. Anyone who's even opened an AoS book already knew which units were good and which units were bad. The only thing The General's Handbook really did was give stuff points and nerf Wizards.
The idea that we would 'have to wait and see' to how the meta plays out was ludicrous. The meta was already made, the only question was whether or not stuff was reasonably costed or not.

In any case;
Order won 45% of The Realms, with the other 55% being fought over in various degrees by the other three Factions. Which shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.

[Requizen]

Out of curiosity, what are you seeing as the "uber broken" units? Beastclaw Raiders are generally agreed to be undercosted/overstatted around here, but at least somewhat balanced by the low model count (though that's little consolation when they table things). Artillery/Warmachines are pretty big as well, with the Hurricanum and Flame Cannon being the biggest offenders in my eyes. And of course, 40 Handgunner Free People's armies is pretty much considered everybody's nightmare, though our Empire Free People's player isn't mean enough to do that.

I think it's really easy to make a strong list, but honestly after getting smacked around the 40k tourney scene, I don't think the disparity between finely-tuned "rear-kicker" lists and your moderately well put together AoS force is nearly as big as it is in 40k. Fluffy lists will always get rolled, but that's expected in any game.

[thedanster7000]

Can I just drop in and ask: why does anyone play AOS? It's essentially a (small) collection of bad rules resembling a game, that's unbalanced and barely playable. Everyone could just laugh it off if it didn't destroy WHFB, which, despite not being as big as 40K, still had a large fanbase and was a good game. Then someone decides since it's not doing as well as 40K, so they change the models to look like 40K, get rid of all the WHFB products and support, then throw those free rules out there. This would be more acceptable if better rules aren't written every time someone smashes on a keyboard. It's a poor marketing scheme that destroyed a good game.

Just ranting because I used to play Warhammer.

[Cheesegear]

why does anyone play AOS? It's essentially a (small) collection of bad rules resembling a game, that's unbalanced and barely playable.

The General's Handbook is out. Your argument is invalid.

[Requizen]

Can I just drop in and ask: why does anyone play AOS? It's essentially a (small) collection of bad rules resembling a game, that's unbalanced and barely playable. Everyone could just laugh it off if it didn't destroy WHFB, which, despite not being as big as 40K, still had a large fanbase and was a good game. Then someone decides since it's not doing as well as 40K, so they change the models to look like 40K, get rid of all the WHFB products and support, then throw those free rules out there. This would be more acceptable if better rules aren't written every time someone smashes on a keyboard. It's a poor marketing scheme that destroyed a good game.

Just ranting because I used to play Warhammer.

These are the sort of arguments that are brought up by people who have not played the game, or at least, haven't played it since GW started giving a crap about the game. If you're bitter about the change from WHFB to AoS, that's fine and totally understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that the game actually works nowadays. Saying it doesn't is a bit petty, but I do understand why some people are very averse to it.

[Cheesegear]

If you're bitter about the change from WHFB to AoS, that's fine and totally understandable, but that doesn't change the fact that the game actually works nowadays.

Only thing that worries me, currently, and only for newer/younger players, is that the game is quite solidly built around combos. This unit, and That unit, by themselves, aren't very good. This unit and That unit, using their combined Abilities suddenly make a power combo and off you go. You have to pick a General with a good Command Ability, and you intentionally take units that take advantage of that Command Ability, and you need ways to keep your General alive and not get one-shotted, etc. Basically, you can't build your list organically, and that's a problem. Not for me, personally. Because...

The reason that there's only 4 pages of rules, is because every unit in the game has their own rules. I've found that 'People Who Don't Read Good' can't play Age of Sigmar. Or, more accurately, they can't build good army lists and don't understand the nuances that make their Faction work. Especially given the fact that you can take any single model in your entire Grand Alliance. You have access to every unit in the book. Have you read all of the unit entries? Do you remember that guy's ability from 20 pages back, and how you can pair it with another model you just read?

Most importantly; Are you still stuck in the Single Faction mindset? If you don't have a post-TGH Battletome (currently, Beastclaw Raiders is the only one, and is arguably the best Faction in game, probably because of it), you shouldn't be playing a single Faction.

[thedanster7000]

Ah, I hadn't heard about the GH because I don't really follow GW anymore. I'll give it a look, perhaps this game is redeemed.

[Requizen]

Ah, I hadn't heard about the GH because I don't really follow GW anymore. I'll give it a look, perhaps this game is redeemed.

It's still not WHFB, though Kings of War or Ninth Age are popular for that. AoS is a really solid little skirmish game though, I'd recommend looking at the updated rules a bit to see if you'll enjoy it! Ask here too, Cheese, Drasius and I have been playing and can answer questions.

[Drasius]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X8uZleH5xdM/WAFVBp5csBI/AAAAAAABITk/4VPvV26KyLohEE-M0yzR25t-5ROe6MSlQCLcB/s1600/CuwKGlrUIAARj1a.jpg

And you thought that 40k was the only system to dial things to 11 and then keep twisting the dial? While technically impressive, IMHO, this is pretty much the definition of overkill for the remnants of a game that used to be about ranked infantry. I remember seeing the leaked pics of this and thinking that it might be cool, but now, it's just going to be too unwieldy to use for regular games in addition to undoubtedly having such blatant OP rules that it won't be fun or interesting to fight.

Yet more nails in the coffin for AoS for me I'm afraid.

[LCP]

In all fairness, that's a Forge World piece right? Forge World were putting out impractical "display shelf" models that you were never realistically going to use for gaming right from day one. I can't remember exactly when the Fire Dragon (https://thebrushsucker.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/fire_dragon_miniature_warhammer.jpg) came out but from the forum posts I can find on google it's been around for at least ten years.

It does look very big-for-the-sake-of-big though. Maybe it's just that it's a work in progress, but looking at the photo I don't really see much more detail than there is on the old metal Carnosaur, which probably comes up to that thing's ankle.

(Unless it's a 3-up? They used to make large scale prototypes of all their miniatures - with how much of their work is done in CAD now I don't know if they do that any more)

[Requizen]

Yeah, considering the things FW has been pushing lately include the Tau'nar and the Warlord-Class Titan, big sizes don't surprise me anymore.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Monsters are more balanced in Age of Sigmar than they ever were in fantasy due to their power actually dropping the more wounds they suffer and the fact that everything can hurt anything else.

Ranked infantry getting annihilated by over powered stuff was how fantasy has always worked except maybe (and that's a big maybe) in early 6th ed.

I also prefer ranked infantry games actually based around how armies fought at a point in history rather than nonsensical mechanics that don't represent how any fight would ever play out but bitter moaning about stuff that isn't anything new is pointless.

Its a work in progress so its probably a 3 up. Wouldn't be surprised either way.

[LCP]

Monsters are more balanced in Age of Sigmar than they ever were in fantasy due to their power actually dropping the more wounds they suffer and the fact that everything can hurt anything else.

Ranked infantry getting annihilated by over powered stuff was how fantasy has always worked except maybe (and that's a big maybe) in early 6th ed.

Gotta argue with that. Monsters were fine - even a little under-used - throughout 6th and 7th, and even in 8th it was only a small selection of monsters (mostly those that were Unbreakable/Stubborn and had access to a good saves) that were over the top. Plenty of monsters remained seldom seen.

[Drasius]

As I've said before and will undoubtedly say again, the decreasing power of Monstrous Creatures as they take wounds is one of the best representations I can think of and one of the very, very few things that I fervently hope is integrated into 8th for 40k.

In 8th ed WHFB, nobody really used MC's since they were cannon bait and you would dread to hear 8" from the back of the base. It was only a few MC's that would be used, with the existence of dragons almost as mythical then as in real life since it was just going to get shot off the board with sniper accurate cannon fire on the first turn.

[Requizen]

Hm, not sure what to take between Skyborne Slayers and Warrior Brotherhood. Warrior Brotherhood allows for more flexible positioning (since you don't need to deploy around a single point and can come in delayed over a few turns), but has a higher requirement. Though the requirements are also flexible, as I'd rather bring Retributors + Protectors instead of Skyborne's Decimators + Protectors. You can get around the larget deployment bubble by making one of the heroes a Knight-Azyros for his Lantern, letting him bring Retributors in right next to their target. And of course, there's Skyborne being Shockimmune vs just a bonus from Brotherhood.

What do you guys think between them? I know I'm going a Deep StrikeCelestial Realm force, but I'm not sure the specifics yet.

[Requizen]

Had our tourney this past weekend, was a good time! I only got to play the first round (I was the ringer and someone came late), but the games were varied and good. We had:

-Ironjawz with Ironfist and Mawkrusha
-Ironjawz with Gordrakk and second Mawkrusha
-Khorne mixed Daemons/Mortals/Bloodborne
-Tzeentch Daemons with lots of shooting
-Brayherd/Warherd super Elite army
-Flesh Eater Court with Ghoul Patrol, 3 Terrorgheists, and a Zombie Dragon (one of those had a Ghoul King)
-Death mix with Nagash, Neferata, a Necromancer, Zombies, Skeletons, and a couple Tomb Scorpions.
-Free People's army with lots of artillery, a Hurricanum, and some Brettonian Knights

So a bit of everything for variety. The Ironfist Ironjawz player ended up the champion, going undefeated and playing a pretty tactical day.

I personally was pretty scared of the Death armies - Nagash went up to a 2+ ignoring rends when combo'd with Neferata, and ended up going unkilled all day. The FEC army had 4 behemoths and his Ghouls were pretty durable and were able to control the board thanks to their battalion. I honestly don't know how I would have dealt with either if we had played, quite cool to see the field.

We ran Border War, Escalation, and Gifts From the Heavens straight out of the book. It went ok, but there probably needs to be a more granulated scoring system on my part in the future. Luckily we had only one undefeated person, so it wasn't a big deal.

People already talking about modifications to their lists and strategies, which is good for the scene!

[Cheesegear]

Our AoS tournament has been pushed back. Similar to our 40K tournament soon, huge demand and limited places has meant that the AoS tournament will also be a doubles tournament. I'm pretty sure my partner will be a Death army with respawning Crypt Horrors - the army list can be seen earlier in thread.

[Yaktan]

So, some of the people at my FLGS are getting into Sigmar, and so I was thinking of starting on an army for that since I am one Broadside away from finishing my Tau.

I was liking the Seraphon, but there is someone already building some of those, and I like being different. On the other hand no one appears to be doing stormcasts, so I was thinking of looking at those. (also, I think they would be more amenable to my painting skills)

Since I really, really like the stardrake, here is what I came up with:


Skyborne Slayers 140
Lord-Cellestant 100
Judicators (bows) 160
Judicators (crossbows) 160
Liberators 100
Liberators 100
Retributors 200
Protectors 200

Stardrake 600
Prosecutors 80
Prosecutors 80
Prosecutors 80

[Requizen]

So, some of the people at my FLGS are getting into Sigmar, and so I was thinking of starting on an army for that since I am one Broadside away from finishing my Tau.

I was liking the Seraphon, but there is someone already building some of those, and I like being different. On the other hand no one appears to be doing stormcasts, so I was thinking of looking at those. (also, I think they would be more amenable to my painting skills)

Since I really, really like the stardrake, here is what I came up with:


Skyborne Slayers 140
Lord-Cellestant 100
Judicators (bows) 160
Judicators (crossbows) 160
Liberators 100
Liberators 100
Retributors 200
Protectors 200

Stardrake 600
Prosecutors 80
Prosecutors 80
Prosecutors 80


Looks solid to me. I'm honestly of the opinion that Skyborne or Warrior Brotherhood is the only way to run Stormcast. There are some footslogging builds... but I honestly haven't seen any of them do well at all. Do note that you need a unit of Decimators for Skyborne instead of Retributors, no choice there (though there is in Warrior Brotherhood).

The Stardrake is a cool model, I agree! I want to get one at one point - but do be aware that it's a big scary model that will run through many things and spits out ranged mortal wounds. People may or may not hate you for bringing it. I personally don't think it's overly powerful compared to some of the stuff out there (though my SE bias should be taken into account), just know that the first game you bring it and it soaks more damage than it should followed by wiping multiple units in a turn, people may call cheese.

In related news, I picked up my Celestant Prime. I think, in general, he underperforms by himself, but when the rest of your army is also deep striking, he is an effective tool to combo with them and snipe out important models/units with his insane melee profile and free mortal wounds.

[Yaktan]

Oh, yeah, I just got confused on the retributors, keeping all the stormcast names straight is tricky when you are first looking at them.

[Requizen]

https://warofsigmar.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/blogging/picture4/1362/15055663_544128712450593_5984539193064956211_n.jpg

Sort of odd that they put in named characters, immediately devaluing duplicate boxes for some people. Also odd that Ironjawz get a Gargant for some reason.

But you can't argue with those insane savings. I'll be getting the Stormcast one for sure.

[Yaktan]

Looking at the Stormcast box, here is a list I came up with.


Skyborne Slayers 140
Lord-Celestant 100
Judicators 160
Judicators 160
Liberators 100
Liberators 100
Decimators 200
Protectors 200

Celestant-Prime 360 (?)
Knight-Azyros 100
Prosecutors 80
Dracothian Guard 240

Total: 1940


This would use the Battleforce, one start collecting box, two boxes of Judicators, and one box of paladins.

Not sure what to do with the last few points. Probably a gryp-hound, but that requires an extra $40 kit, which goes against my building-on-a-budget planning.

Not sure which Dracothian Guard are best. I am leaning towards the fulminators, since they have the bonus against shooting which would be useful as one of my 3 units that starts on the board. On the other hand, the Concussors are more reliable when they don't get the charge, and the longer range on the lightning means they can better help snip enemy heros and stuff.

[Requizen]

Looking at the Stormcast box, here is a list I came up with.


Skyborne Slayers 140
Lord-Celestant 100
Judicators 160
Judicators 160
Liberators 100
Liberators 100
Decimators 200
Protectors 200

Celestant-Prime 360 (?)
Knight-Azyros 100
Prosecutors 80
Dracothian Guard 240

Total: 1940


This would use the Battleforce, one start collecting box, two boxes of Judicators, and one box of paladins.

Not sure what to do with the last few points. Probably a gryp-hound, but that requires an extra $40 kit, which goes against my building-on-a-budget planning.

Not sure which Dracothian Guard are best. I am leaning towards the fulminators, since they have the bonus against shooting which would be useful as one of my 3 units that starts on the board. On the other hand, the Concussors are more reliable when they don't get the charge, and the longer range on the lightning means they can better help snip enemy heros and stuff.

Don't count on the Concussor's lightning to do a whole lot. One shot hitting on a 4+ is alright but nothing special.

In general - The Concussor is better all around in combat. The Fulminators are only stronger on the charge, after that or if they get charged the Concussors are better. The Fulminators like you said also have the +1 save against shooting, which is pretty good overall, and aren't bad in combat (their mounts do more damage than them normally, but that's whatever), and their shooting attack is actually really good. I'd say Fulminators - they're more defensive and cheaper, though you get less MWs out of them than Concussors.

The Azyros in your list is a bit misplaced - it's not really doing much other than maybe providing the +1 to hit. His big use is in conjunction with Warrior Brotherhood to give them the better Lighting Strike, and he doesn't do anything with the Slayers. If the kit in the box is the full Knight-Azyros kit, consider building it as a Knight-Venator, who is more self-sufficient.

[Yaktan]

Good to know. I did not realize they were a double kit.

The Venator does seem to fit better with the list, where it will be him, the prosecutors, and the fulminators starting on the board, with everything else coming in to support.

[Requizen]

Yet another reason to love the current AoS team. Look at this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2016/11/23/771057500d487f985630693995193f9f_5394.jpg

Go on Facebook and put up your thoughts. I don't have any current things I can think of but I know what I'll be pondering all weekend long.

[Yaktan]

So, today checking the General's handbook at the FLGS to see if Dracoth Riders are battleline (they are not) I realized that Liberators come in units of 5, not 10, so the battalion box has 2 units of liberators, not one. I felt a little silly for not realizing this earlier. On the other hand, it does make my Sigmarines-on-a-budget plan $50 cheaper, assuming I can kitbash the extra crossbows from a judicator kit onto one set of liberators.

Also, what are people's thoughts on the magic maces for protectors and decimators? From running the numbers, a protector will do about 1.5 average damage to a monster with a 4+, while the mace does 2 average; however the mace can only do 3 max, while the glaive has a much higher upside. Also the glaive has 3'' range rather than 1''.

For the decimators, it is around 4-6 models that need to be in range of their axes before the damage starts to equal with the maces. This does not seem that hard to get with 2'' range. On the other hand, against heros, monsters, or the dregs of units, the maces still do their consistent damage. And I was going to say something about possibly messing up your attacks with the other weapon, but after re-reading the rules, I see that you do all your attacks against one unit, and then apply the damage. (I think I am reading that right....)

[Cheesegear]

For the decimators, it is around 4-6 models that need to be in range of their axes before the damage starts to equal with the maces. This does not seem that hard to get with 2'' range. On the other hand, against heros, monsters, or the dregs of units, the maces still do their consistent damage. And I was going to say something about possibly messing up your attacks with the other weapon, but after re-reading the rules, I see that you do all your attacks against one unit, and then apply the damage. (I think I am reading that right....)

Have you read this yet? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21028206&postcount=78) Decimators aren't good, and Protectors are great.

[Yaktan]

Yes, I have read that. But I need both of them for the skybourne slayers, so the idea is how to make the best of having them.

[Requizen]

You do need to bring Decimators, who are (relatively) bad. The nice thing is you can (almost) always guarantee that they'll get to an appropriate target with Skyborne Slayers. One of the nice things about the Warrior Brotherhood is that you can run Retributors instead. Both are good for various reasons, though.

That said, I'd say give the Decimators 2 Starsoul Maces because when they don't go against hordes, they're really meh. They'll get on average 3 swings or less against elite/medium sized units and only 1 against monsters/heroes. The Maces will do similar or more damage against anything that's not hordes, which is good times.

Protectors are still reasonably good against things that aren't hordes. The Maces also have less range than their regular weapons, and they're getting 3 swings no matter what. I think I read the math was about the same between a Mace Protectors vs a regular one against a standard target, but they have a much higher potential against Monsters. So... it's a bit of a toss up but I'd say keep them all with Glaives because there's nothing quite like rolling five 6s against a Mawkrusha and removing from the board without a thought.

[Yaktan]

Ok. That makes sense, the glaives have a higher floor than the axes, so they do not neccessarily need the consistency of the maces as much as the decimators do. Also, I guess it depends on if 2/3 the average damage is worth the rare 6-to-wound into 6 damage.

Interestingly over on reddit they think the decimators' axes are too good to replace with maces....

In other news, with the growing interest in Age of Sigmar, my FLGS is planning a tournament next month for all the people who are getting into it. It would be a 740 point limit, with composition limits/requirements of a 1000 point army.

Currently I am thinking of getting the Battalion box, and based on what I want to have eventually, I would be able to fit this list:


Celestant-Prime 360
Knight-venator 120

Liberators 100
Liberators 100

Total: 680 points


Basically the liberators form a solid anchor, while the venator peppers important enemy units. On turn 2 or 3 the Prime comes in for HAMMERTIME!

The store owner said he wants a friendly tournament for all us new people, and he is bringing something like this:


Firespear battalion 60
Scar-vet on cold one 100
Saurous cavalry x10 240
Saurous cavalry 120
Saurous cavalry 120

Skink starpriest 100

Total: 740


So what does the playground think of my list? Too strong? Too weak? Hillarious to play when the prime come in and starts deleating stuff? Too easy to die before he shows up?

Alternatively, I just realized I could proxy one dracoth rider as a lord-celestant on dracoth, which would give me:


Lord-Celestant on Dracoth 220
Knight-venator 120

Liberators 100
Liberators 100
Protectors 200

Total: 740


This seems a more rounded list than the first one, what does the playground think?

[Requizen]

Expensive characters at small point values are a trap, unless they're something that can table the opponent by themselves like Beastclaw stuff. One hero is enough for us Stormcast at that level (other armies that rely on combos such as Bloodbound are different). The exception is something cheap like the Lord Relictor.

I think for that point level the Lord Celestant on Dracoth is enough hitting power, probably drop the Knight-Venator. You'll also have to be careful with the Dracoth hero since he'll get separated by speed really quickly.

Honestly the best Stormcast build for that point level (imo) is something like this:

LC on Dracoth
Judicators
Judicators
Prosecutors with Javelins
Prosecutors with Javelins
700

Where your Lord Celestant just runs around smashing faces while everything else jumps around in back doing damage from a range (which they're quite good at). If you want to run more punchy dudes you probably want something like this:

Lord Celestant
Liberators
Liberators
Protectors
Retributors
720

Note that this list is slow as crap, but anything you reach you should either tie up with Libs or obliterate with everything else. Lord Celestant's +1 to hit bubble makes the Retributors deal 2MWs on 5+ to hit which is nuts, and the Protectors can help a reasonable amount against shooty lists with their -1 to hit.

At low point levels (aka 1000 or less) you need every unit to work well together. I feel like your lists were a bit scattered - Liberators want to tie up things but were too slow to keep up with the LC on Dracoth and the Venator is quick and ranged enough to not need bodyguards at most times. Celestant-Prime is probably too expensive for a pure SE army at 740.

[Yaktan]

ok. Good to know.

It turns out out tournament is comming up, and the battalion boxes are not out yet, so I went ahead and got the other boxes I wanted since my FLGS had a nice black friday sale, so I have this list:


Lord-celestant

Judicators
Judicators

Protectors
Prosecutors

700 points.


I probably could get away with building the two Retributors from the Start Collecting box and the other paladins without arms, to run them as Retributors here (I want protectors for building up to skyborn slayers). Especially with the Lord-celestant the retributors seem much nicer.

[Closet_Skeleton]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/29/top-5-lists-from-blood-glory/

Looks like Goblins are still one of the top lists.

While the winning army is two heroes and no monsters or artillery.

So much for Age of Sigmar ruining warhammer where basic infantry always sucked.

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/29/top-5-lists-from-blood-glory/

Looks like Goblins are still one of the top lists.

While the winning army is two heroes and no monsters or artillery.

So much for Age of Sigmar ruining warhammer where basic infantry always sucked.
Req's analysis of the top Blood and Glory Lists:


Warrior Brotherhood is the hotness for Stormcast. If you're not running this or Skyborne Slayers (though WB seems to be preferred at the moment), you're likely doing it wrong.

Interesting to note that he's utilizing double Knight-Azyros. While it makes sense, I'd also not really thought of it since you generally prefer to have a smashy Hero in there as well - but they're cheap and you get pinpoint strikes at two separate instances. And they're no slouches in combat, though nothing overly special.

I personally don't agree with Maces on the Protectors, but honestly it's pretty meta-dependent. Both are good against Monsters, though the Glaives have a higher ceiling. If you're not going against Monsters that often, the Maces are better in general. When you're running 4/10, you'll have enough of both, though.

The list is pretty obvious - start with nothing on the board, use the Azyroses (Azyri?) to put the Retributors and Protectors where they can kill things, and then everything else does objective things and/or body blocking. 10 man Paladin bricks are good, but so are 5 man bricks, so that's just preference.

I don't understand the Prosecutors, though. The axes are doing an approximation of Decimators, I suppose, though I'd still prefer either other big weapon for that sweet damage 2 against anything that's not hordes. But paired hammers? Not even shields? I get that the 3d6" charge range is nice for the 9" Lightning Strike bubble, but they're just kinda... ok at best? There's a reason people take Javelins, and it's not just for the 20 points saved. But what do I know, I'm not the 1st place winner.

I'm a relatively big fan of this list. People love to complain about Stormfiends (and they are a bit of a pain), but in this case I'll give it a pass since he's not running Skyre shenanigans.

The Nurgle core is something I will always give a thumbs up to. Plaguebearers will likely see a point bump in the next edition, because for 100 points they're harder to kill than most army's purported durable units. And that makes sense for Nurgle, but I've seen them tie up things quadruple their cost because 5+++ and the Banner is just silly.

I like the triple threat list here. Stormfiends, Fatey, and the GUO are all things that can ruin your day. Maybe Fatey a bit less so depending on your army, but Gift of Change goes off 3/4 of the time and blasts out d6 MWs, and then he can still Arcane Bolt on top of it. Lynchpin armies like Bloodbound will cry when faced with that.

So a strong wall of cheap Nurgle dudes with WLCs behind and the triple God threat (sorry Khorne and Slaanesh, you're not wanted here) punching your face. It's just a solid army. Sayl + Stormfiends in the only thing I'd consider a "gimmick", the rest is just a solid force. Love seeing armies like this.

Ugh.

Uuuuuughh.

You can combat this list. It's not broken and blowing out power levels in the way that things do in other games. But there's few things in AoS I hate as much as a Frostlord Stonehorn healing 3d3 wounds per turn with Battlebrew on top of it. And 3 Thundertusks blasting out d6 MWs each, even after they run. Just disgusting.

I'm glad to see the Grots though. Big blobs of dudes is a fun way to play the game, and they're effective at their job in this case as well. Blob in front of/around the monsters, keep them safe until the Stonehorn can charge. You need really good positioning and a modicum of luck to combat this setup, though strong shooting lists should be able to drop the Thundertusks sorta quickly.

I generally expect to see more Wood summoning when it comes to Sylvaneth. The list that people like to complain about with Sylvaneth is "cover the board in trees, laugh at people trying to move", but this isn't that list. This is just Alarielle the wrecking ball being supported by two big monsters and Kurnoth Hunters from a range. The Tree Revenants are pretty interesting, since they sorta suck (100/5 for 1W, 5+ models is generally bad), but threatening backline objectives with their teleport makes them relatively tactical.

I'd like to find a VOD of this army being played - it's a pretty atypical Sylvaneth list. I imagine it's a bit straightforward with monsters running up the field while the Battleline sits on objectives and the Hunters stand in back with their great 30" range, but that can be countered pretty easily by other top lists so I'd like to see how it plays out.

Nnneyyyhhh. Alright, it's only 2 Beastclaw monsters so I'm somewhat less annoyed.

152 Grots is a lot. Like, a lot a lot. "I don't even know how to fight that" a lot. And up to a 3+ save on them, with wounding on 2s, and -1 to hit them if everything goes off. Hot dang. If you can chunk them down and take out the Shamans, it's a bit easier to fight, but that's a big brick that's going to sit in the middle of the table and just fite things.

I like it in general, because I'm glad a fluffy blobs of Grots list is viable in this game.

The variety in these armies is nice. We have a tactical list, a straightforward multithreat with well rounded core list, two monster mashes, and a blob list. That's awesome.

Sad that there's no Death though. Would have liked to see each GA represented.

[Felhammer]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/29/top-5-lists-from-blood-glory/

Looks like Goblins are still one of the top lists.

While the winning army is two heroes and no monsters or artillery.

So much for Age of Sigmar ruining warhammer where basic infantry always sucked.

That is a lot of fanatics. I know they hit hard but they are really fragile.

[Requizen]

That is a lot of fanatics. I know they hit hard but they are really fragile.

They don't need to hit at all, to be honest. They charge at the beginning of any charge phase, including your opponents.

"Oh, I see you're about to charge Nagash into my unit. Would be a shame if he got stopped cold by a single Fanatic cannonballing into his ankle".

[Yaktan]

So, our Sigmar tournament is next week. I mostly have my army put together for it.

However, today I am picking up the battleforce, and realized I could change my army around a bit, since I still have a week to get stuff put together.

Here is my current list:

Hammertime!

Lord-celestant 100

Judicators 160
Judicators 160

Prosecutors 80
Retributors 220

Total: 720


Here is my tweaked list:

Lord-celestant on Dracoth 220

Judicators 160
Judicators 160
Liberators 100

Prosecutors 80

Total: 720


I also briefly considered just replacing the Retributors from the first list with Fulminators, but decided that would leave me with too few bodies.

The advantage of the first list is the retributors form a mighty fine brick, especially when boosted by the Lord Celestant.

The advantage of the second list is my general is more durable, has more speed to get places, and has the really nice no-battleshock bubble.

What do people think? If it matters, my lord on dracoth would have the glaive, since long term I want fulminators.

[Requizen]

So, our Sigmar tournament is next week. I mostly have my army put together for it.

However, today I am picking up the battleforce, and realized I could change my army around a bit, since I still have a week to get stuff put together.

Here is my current list:

Hammertime!

Lord-celestant 100

Judicators 160
Judicators 160

Prosecutors 80
Retributors 220

Total: 720


Here is my tweaked list:

Lord-celestant on Dracoth 220

Judicators 160
Judicators 160
Liberators 100

Prosecutors 80

Total: 720


I also briefly considered just replacing the Retributors from the first list with Fulminators, but decided that would leave me with too few bodies.

The advantage of the first list is the retributors form a mighty fine brick, especially when boosted by the Lord Celestant.

The advantage of the second list is my general is more durable, has more speed to get places, and has the really nice no-battleshock bubble.

What do people think? If it matters, my lord on dracoth would have the glaive, since long term I want fulminators.

I like the second list a lot! You'll have a solid backline with the Judicators and some mobility to do objectives and rush opponents. I think it'll do well.

[Requizen]

If you want some background noise for today, Warhammer TV will be doing a stream for the next 6 hours or so from this post. Stream link: https://www.twitch.tv/warhammer

Playing AoS, first Narrative and then Matched.

[Yaktan]

I am going to run the second list, and got my Lord on Dracoth put together yesterday, so I have all the guys for it ready to go.

I must say, I do really like how the Dracoth riders look in person. Though putting on the weapon arm is a little tricky since the spots to glue on the arm are angled such that it is tricky to hold it in place when you glue both at once.

[Requizen]

They're wonderful models, for sure.

So I learned that Adepticon's AoS events are going to have you roll for random Traits and Artifacts. That sucks a bit, especially since the Order traits are about half not great. The Artifacts aren't bad, though, but I'd much rather get to choose mine.

Had a test game against Beastclaw Raiders last night. I was running the list from yesterday's stream to try it out, he was running pure Beastclaw.

Celestant-Prime
Lord-Celestant
Knight-Venator

Liberators (Shields, Grandhammer)
Liberators (Shields, Grandhammer)
Judicators (Crossbows, Shockbolt Bow)
Judicators (Bows, Shockbolt Bow)

Protectors x10 (4 Starsoul Maces)
Decimators (2 Starsoul Maces)
Prosecutors with Javelins
Prosecutors with Javelins

Skyborne Slayers

1980/2000

Frostlord on Stonehorn
Huskard on Thundertusk

Thundertusk Beastriders
Stonehorn Beastriders
Mournfang Cavalry
Mournfang Cavalry

Yhetees

2000/2000

We rolled and got Gift from the Heavens, which is one I haven't played too much. He rolled his traits, getting reroll 1s to hit on the charge and add 1 damage to a weapon on his General. I got Reckless, yay! And then on my Lord-Celestant I got Phoenix Stone (meh) and the Knight-Venator got the Talisman of Blinding Light (pretty good for him).

He won the roll to deploy, and put his Mournfang and Yhetees on one side, Stonehorns on the other, and Thundertusks dead center. I had the Knight Venator, a unit of Prosecutors, and some Liberators on one side in a corner and the other Prosecutors in the other corner, everything else up in the sky.

I let him have first turn, knowing there wasn't too much for him to do. Everything moved up, but the Thundertusks were out of range for their breath and the Stonehorn were too far to charge. This is why you take Destruction allegiance. Also, I don't think he knew you can run and charge with Stonehorn, or run and use the breath weapon with Thundertusks. I don't think it would have changed too much of the game, but it was worth noting that he didn't do either.

I decided not to come down on Turn 1, instead just taking some potshots and positioning my Liberators for a charge. I shot off 5 wounds from a Mournfang and failed the charge.

We rolled for priority, which ended with my choice. I didn't know where the objectives were yet, so I let him have first again. His dropped on the side of the board with the Mournfang, and he moved up to charge. The only Thundertusk in breath range failed on a 1, lucky for me. That side all charged into the Liberators and Prosecutors, while the General on Stonehorn charged the lone Prosecutor unit, obliterating them. The Liberators and Prosecutors on the other side were slain by the Yhetees and Mournfang.

My metor came down in my center zone. Then, the Skyborne Slayers arrived! I positioned the landing zone between the two objectives. Only one part of the unit has to be in the bubble, not all models, so even though the objectives are nearly 3' apart and I only have a 2' diameter, I could chain out the Judicators into the 6" holding bubble, giving me both Objectives. The Protectors set up to charge the Huskard, the Decimators moved toward the Yhetees and Mournfang. The remaining Liberators set up to try and screen out the Stonehorns, and the Lord-Celestant just positioned himself to give charge rerolls to everything. Shooting dropped the weakened Mournfang unit, and charges obliterated the Huskard and cut down one of the remaining Mournfang. The Yhetees with their silly jump pile in were able to bring the Lord-Celestant to a single wound remaining, which hurt.

I won the priority roll again, taking the double turn. The Celestant-Prime came down (Prime Time!) behind the Thundertusks to support the Protectors. The Knight-Venator earned his paycheck, dealing 6 wounds to the Thundertusk that was still alive thanks to his Star Fated Arrow. I finished it off with the Prime's Comet and the Crossbows, which was wonderful. The Bows and the Celestant's Hammer Cloak killed the Yhetees. Charges saw me kill the remaining Mournfang and put the non-General Stonehorn down to 4 wounds left (that halving power is strong).

His turn 3, I've already racked up 10 points to his 0 and he has 2 Stonehorns left. He charged the Protectors, killing all but one Starsoul Mace. "Take a Battleshock to kill it off". "I'm Immune with Skyborne Slayers". "Let's just call it here then, shall we?".

Quick game, but fun nonetheless. Maybe not for him, especially since right before I got there he lost to Clan Skryre with their tunnelling shenanigans. So two games in a row with alpha strike lists is pretty brutal, but we had some laughs and rolled dice. Sad the Prime didn't get to charge, though.

I think he could have won if he didn't take my bait with the Stonehorn General. Peeling off his most powerful dude to kill 3 Prosecutors (80 points!) was exactly what I wanted, and exactly not what he should have done. I think if he had stuck together as a big 4 Monster wrecking ball, I would have had a lot of trouble killing things off. My initial charge only got the Thundertusks in combat (who aren't as scary as the Stonehorns), but if he had clumped them up in a blob, I would have probably been locked with 3 monsters by virtue of 10 Protectors taking up a lot of space. Spreading out to prepare for Objectives when you don't know where they'll be is bad, and his General ended up on the opposite side of the board from the one in his DZ.

I tend to like Skyborne Slayers over Warrior Brotherhood, though I haven't played the latter yet. Battleshock immune, no reliance on Azyros for deep striking, cheaper buy in - I think the Slayers are just fine, especially when you bring the Prime for the 1-2 punch.

[Yaktan]

Nice to hear the report. Especially since that list is quite similar to the one I am putting together. (I suppose there are only so many things to do with Skyborne Slayers + Celestant-Prime) The main difference is I will have Fulminators instead of 5 of the protectors and one prosecutor unit. The battleforce came with dracoths, so I am using them. Also they look really cool.

UPDATE:

Had the tournament today. Went quite well. I managed to win all 3 games.

My list was:

Lord-Celestant on Dracoth

Liberators
Judicators
Judicators

Prosecutors


First game was against Tzeench deamons, with Fateweaver, a Prince and two squads of Horrors. We had the mission with an objective in each quadrent. Fateweaver got distracted chasing after my prosecutors while my Lord took down the prince with some archery help. Since it was the first game of Sigmar for both of us, we only got through turn 2. We both held 2 of the objectives, so I got a victory with the more valuable unit destroyed (prince vs. prosecutors).

Second game was against some generic Chaos. Sorcerer on Mainticore, chariot, cavalry, and a big blob of chaos warriors. My judicators whitled his chariot down a bit, but then I whacked it for 12 damage or so with my lord when he charged. Then I got double turn and put 7 wounds or something onto his manticore with my lord. We only got through turn 3 I think, but my Lord was almost dead from his chaos warriors coming to help the manticore. The mission was the one with objectives in your base and on the border, with different values. I won this since we both held our home objectives, but I had my prosecutors on one of the side ones.

Third game was against a nurgle list. We got the comet mission. He managed to take down my Lord when I tried charging into his unit of Plauge Drones, but my liberators then took out the hearld who was trying to hide behind them and held up his drones and a unit of plague bearers for most of the game. His comet came down in one corner, and he got nurglings on it for a turn before my prosecutors got there and the two units sat there slap-fighting for the rest of the game, denying him any more points from that. My objective came down really lucky right where I had my two units of Judicators, so they sat there while he sent a 20 man squad of plague bearers at them. Since they were slow, I managed two turns on the objective before he got there, and started whittling down my crossbow squad. He got two 1's for battleshock in a row as he came in, and got back 10 guys total. Made it really slow to whittle him down. Ultimately I was about to finish off his squad when the rest of his army finished off my liberators and came to join the party. But by then it was turn 5 and I pulled off the win from back in turn 3 when I was holding the objective before he got there. I think after the first turn both of us kept on getting double turns, which made things interesting.

[Requizen]

Glad to hear it went well! That's a solid low point list - if I end up doing the 1000 point AoS games at Adepticon I'll probably run something similar. Small points really are their own game, I hope more people embrace them for tournaments to shake up the meta and stuff.

[Yaktan]

Yeah, it did well. Though I now think I know part of why the winning list from a tournament that got posted earlier in the thread went with 6x Hammer Prosecutors instead of Javalin Guys. My Javalins were slap fighting with nurglings for 3 rounds or so, because noting else I had could get over to the objective to deny him getting points from it every turn. Hammers could have done better slugging it out on the objective, especially with a special weapon to get 3 swings for 2 damage from the prime.

[Requizen]

New FAQ updates for AoS: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/22/faq-update-for-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/

Goblin Congalines are dead but Fanatics and Skulkers are still quite good, Ring of Immortality is (mostly) dead, Chaos Talisman got a nice buff, Escalation got oddly reworked, and Damage rolls were made way more confusing in an FAQ change that will probably be mostly ignored because it's dumb.

Pretty good overall from GW I think, but they couldn't update a FAQ without causing some amount of confusion haha.

[Yaktan]

That was how I was already doing damage rolls; I think it is errata because they did not actually specify which way to do it before (1 roll for all the hits vs. 1 roll per hit).

[Requizen]

Yeah I should have edited it: they had a first draft up that said when you make an attack with D3 or D6 damage, you only roll once for the weapon and apply that to all hits from that weapon. Which meant that if you shot with Kurnoth Hunters (who deal D3 damage per arrow), you would have to roll each one separately. If a single Hunter got 2 arrows through, they would deal (D3)x2, rather than 2D3 damage, which is separate from the other hunter who got only one shot through and does it's own (D3)x1, which is not only more confusing, but more swingy.

The Facebook group got slammed with responses and questions so they switched it to what you see now.

[Yaktan]

Ah, yes, that would be annoyingly painful.

[Killer Angel]

An AoS thread? :smallsmile:

wow, I'm neglecting this forum too much.

And about the new faq... yeah, goodbye Ring of Immortality, you served us well, but it's time to let you go.


Actually, my armies are:

Order:
Seraphon
Dwarves
(plus some units of empire and Sylvaneth)

Death:
Tomb Kings
(plus some units of Vampire Counts)

[Requizen]

I think the ring may be useful on ~100 models still - if your Necromancer or Wight King is the General, it means you can bring him back and retain the Command Trait, which is better in some cases than just buying a second version of that leader. But yeah, it's no longer an autoinclude.

I've got a tourney practice game on Wednesday and a 1000 point event in a couple weeks, hoping to get some good games in for batreps!

[Requizen]

Last week I played against a Mourngul for the first time. Since it was a very low point game, the conversation basically went like this:

"Mind if I bring my fancy new model?"
"Sure, mind if I bring a countering unit?"
"Wouldn't have it any other way."

We played a 800 point Three Places of Power (recently found a store that's doing an escalation campaign), and the thing was nearly half his points. I managed to pop his Vampire Lord with my Knight-Venator, and so thought that I could win since he couldn't score anymore, but it turns out that Fly lets you charge over blocking unit and his Mourngul walked up and murdered the Bird Knight. My Protector squad got vengeance, though, since 400 points of Protectors with 4 Starsoul Maces will make short work out of even the most terrifying monsters.

I could see that thing being extremely terrifying for an army that can't put out the same amount of damage as my SE can against big nasty things, especially thanks to that -1 hit debuff.

We've got a 1000 point tourney on Saturday, in preparation for Adepticon in March, so I'll probably be running something like this:

Knight-Venator
Lord Celestant on Dracoth (Tempestos)

Judicators (Bows)
Judicators (Crossbows)

Prosecutors (Javelins)
Fulminators
1000/1000

It served me well against Sylvaneth last week, and I think any of the Dracoth units are absolutely brutal at low point values, though you'll generally only get a unit of them at most. I feel that at any point value, you can't bring only one Hero in a TAC list just due to Three Places of Power being a thing. Which is good, I think the variety of game types makes it difficult for one type of cheese list to be good at everything.

[Drasius]

Our AoS tourney was/is short 1 player to max it out, so I offered to bring my old 8th Ed Skryre Army (and a pair of borrowed WLC's). Am I a bad person for running this:


Leader
140 - Arch Warlock
100 - Warlock Engineer
100 - Warlock Engineer
100 - Skaven Warlord

Artillery
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon

Battle Line
60 - 10x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats
60 - 10x Clanrats

Other
280 - 20x Stormvermin
60 - Poisoned Wind Mortar
60 - Warpfire Projector
60 - Warpfire Projector

200 - Clan Skryre Battalion

2000/2000 points

The Skryre Battallion allow each of the WFC's to fire in the hero phase, but must take a get's hot test for d3 wounds afterwards. They may also fire normally in the shooting phase.

It's not thaaaaat bad, right?

[Drasius]

Not that anyone cares because AoS, but the list above:
- Won game 1 vs a mixed Khorne Daemon/Mortal army with a sprinkle of Tzeentch casters and a burning chariot. Won on objectives, but was robbed of my turn 5 and I rolled it out and would have won a major :'''(
- Tabled a mixed Khorne Bloodbound/Daemons army turn 4, but I lost on objectives 15-7. Claimed all 3 secondary objectives though, so at least it was 4 points for a los instead of 1.
- Conceeded against a frosthorn(?)/stonetusk(?) list as I did a skaven and backstabbed myself with a bunch of stuff blowing itself up turn 1 and playing on the only board with big LoS blockers large enough to hide the giant rape mammoths

Not the worst outing for my 2nd/3rd/4th games ever. Ironically, I played my 2nd/3rd/4th ever games of 40k in a tourney with my Sons and went 2/1 instead of 1/2. Overall it wasn't huge fun to play as it was mainly just cannons pointing at stuff and deleting it with little to no interaction with my opponent. I don't think my opponents had that much fun either, but they said it wasn't too bad when asked. Personally, I'd keep 2 cannons but drop the others and the battalion. The Stormvermin have the potential to be crazy and just obliterate anything they touch when buffed by a Skaven warlord with Gnaw gnaw on their bones and lord of war. 3 attacks each, hitting on 2's if you outnumber your opponent, wounding on 3's, -1 rend 1 damage. I was routinely rolling 30-40 attacks while some models were still out of range (and the 2" range really helps, combined with the fact that they're still on square bases so 3 ranks can attack). The warpfire thrower had a shocker of a game, blowing itself up trying to overcharge first turn in 2/3 games and then doing a single mortal wound (on a d6 roll) and then getting evaporated by bloodletters. The poisoned wind mortar didn't get a single wound on anything across all 3 games. I think I'd drop them both for more clanrats as charge blocker / chaff, though maybe with all the spare points from dropping 2 cannons and the formation, I'd have enough chaff that I could just park the weapons teams behind 3 or 4 layers of rats. The 2 warlocks and the arch warlock did OK, generally casting mystic, arcane, warp lightning and howling warpstorm with fair consistancy, though I wouldn't say they were worth 340 points. I think the arch warlock and maybe 1 engineer would have been enough for a more normal list. The Skaven warlord got sniped in the face at the earliest opportunity every game and there was little to nothing I could do about it. I need to learn to play him better, but because gnaw gnaw is such a massive, massive buff to stormvermin, everyone just points a cannon at him until he goes away (which was first time all 3 games). Having only 5 wounds sucks (he says as he was sending 8 cannon shots a turn into his enemies characters...). Clanrats did surprisingly well. Generally held up things in time for my stormvermin to come over and obliterate it and even won a couple of combats by some minor miracle. I can't ever see myself taking them in units of more than 10 unfortunately since bravery 4 and losing 20+ models a turn means that a unit of 40 evaporates just as fast as a unit of 10 against real opposition.

So, if I ever play again, I'd keep:
100 - Warlord
140 - Arch Warlock
100 - Warlock Engineer
280 - Stormvermin
60 - Clanrats
60 - Clanrats
60 - Clanrats
60 - Clanrats
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon
180 - Warp Lightning Cannon

1120/2000

I have no idea how to fill out the remaining 880 points without buying a bunch of models I hate. Maybe another block of stormvermin, maybe expand into some Tzeentch daemons for some flamers or burning chariots, possibly some screamers. The skaven are reasonably fast for infantry, but still too slow when other stuff moves 12 or 16 a turn. That's why I need more chaff I think, to hold things up and pin them in place so I can charge my stormies in and wreck up the place. Might look into some Chaos warriors or something too, but I think I have enough 40k on my plate as well as a 30k Sons army to buy/build/paint that more fantasy is quite low on the list. Who know. I had some fun at the tourney though, but more rats and less cannons would have made it better.

[Requizen]

Interesting, that's probably a level of shooting that many players aren't used to handling at this point in AoS. I can see you instagibbing many important units with a list like that, but Skaven can be finnicky. I don't think it's too mean or filthy, but that depends on the opponent. That BCR player definitely had the tools to deal with you, but footslogging Khorne without Sayl or other shenanigans would probably just cry (as it seemed they did).

I think getting some sort of solid frontline might be a good idea. Blobs of Plaguebearers are always good in my book, as is a big block of Chaos Warriors with some buffs thrown on. Something to run towards/between the opponents and keep them away from your pew pew. The ability to shoot into combat is great for Skaven.

I was doing some list planning of my own, but then they announced the Stormcast book and I have to restrain myself until I get it in my hands and know what to bring. I'm still a huge Skyborne Slayers proponent, but the new book and new rules could shake things up significantly. Hoping they make Stardrakes better for their steep price, been looking for a reason to buy one.

[Drasius]

Interesting, that's probably a level of shooting that many players aren't used to handling at this point in AoS. I can see you instagibbing many important units with a list like that, but Skaven can be finnicky. I don't think it's too mean or filthy, but that depends on the opponent. That BCR player definitely had the tools to deal with you, but footslogging Khorne without Sayl or other shenanigans would probably just cry (as it seemed they did).

I think getting some sort of solid frontline might be a good idea. Blobs of Plaguebearers are always good in my book, as is a big block of Chaos Warriors with some buffs thrown on. Something to run towards/between the opponents and keep them away from your pew pew. The ability to shoot into combat is great for Skaven.

With any luck at all, I think I could have beaten him. I lost a WFT weapons team and a Cannon 1st turn due to overheats as well as massive damage to 2/3 remaining cannons due to overheat as well, followed by a buffed up unit of 20x stormvermin failing a 4" charge on a full health mammoth thing then getting charged and losing priority. That plus being on the only table with big enough LoS blockers meant it was all downhill.

Regardless, yeah, more chaff and another combat block is the way to improve the list I think. 20x Chaos warriors and a Chaos sorc (he's the one that hands out that huge buff to hit and to wound, yeah?) would probably be enough, though I'm fairly sure I've got another block of 20x stormvermin hangnig around somewhere and I've definately got a handfull of skaven warlrods from the various Island of Bloods that I bought. Some Rat Ogres would also be an interesting choice, but this was always meant to be a Clan Skryre list without any Stormfiends, so yeah. No mixing the impure lesser races or clans with our mighty best Clan forces. They'd only get jealous and betray us.

Thank you for the feedback and suggestions though, I do kinda like that there's some tactical elements just like old fantasy, but it's definately harder to see than in 8th. Lots about being the right distance away to try and minimise the results of a bad priority roll but able to make the best of a good one too. Or just, ya know, alpha strike peoples faces off and not worry about that tactics business.

[Cheesegear]

I do kinda like that there's some tactical elements just like old fantasy, but it's definately harder to see than in 8th.

QFT. People who don't read good, don't play AoS good. Which is weird for such a 'simple' system. Almost like it's not simple at all. :smallwink:


Or just, ya know, alpha strike peoples faces off and not worry about that tactics business.

Or that.

[Grim Portent]

New Duardin faction is coming soon.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/15/a-new-race-descends-on-the-mortal-realms/

Basically steampunk sky pirates. Have to admit I love the one with a top hat and monocle built into his helmet. :smallbiggrin:

[Theodoric]

Squats!

They look pretty neat, really have their own theme going on with those ballloons/ball-shaped-science-contraptions.

[Erloas]

On one hand I think they look pretty cool. But on the other it just seems like GW decided they needed to jump on the Steampunk bandwagon that is gaining strength right now (has been for a while).
So its something new for GW but not actually original at all (which has sort of been the whole GW thing since it started, I guess I just expect more from a company that has been around for 30 years than one that is just starting up).

I guess it doesn't actually matter, at this point I have no intention of ever going back to GW.

[LCP]

The one with the top hat just looks like the sculptors are testing what they can get away with.

This is the kind of thing where if it was someone's converted army I would be blown away, but when it's being put out as the base kit by GW it just feels... eh.

[Rizhail]

The one with the top hat just looks like the sculptors are testing what they can get away with.

This is the kind of thing where if it was someone's converted army I would be blown away, but when it's being put out as the base kit by GW it just feels... eh.

"So he's a dwarf, suspended from a balloon contraption along with a cannon, with a pepperbox gauntlet and what is totally not a chainsword chainfist (just looked again, it's totally mounted on the back of the gauntlet). Let's cover him with armor and add a tophat; HQ unit for the army is done!"

I swear, this army looks like someone has spent a lot of time playing World of Warcraft; the steampunk airships, overemphasis on cannons and mechanical contraptions, it all fits that aesthetic. Hell, I swear those Gatling rifles are actually in the game!

And based on how over the top and sci-fi-ish these look, I won't be surprised in the slightest if folks take these models and play them in 40k as a Counts-As Space Marine army or something, just so they can have Squats.

[Grim Portent]

They do fit the AoS '80s cartoon with 300% more power metal' aesthetic to a T though. The whole setting feels a bit like a Gloryhammer album got smashed into a Dream Evil album and then moulded onto the nine worlds of Norse mythology, and these guys fit into that pretty well.

[Erloas]

I think it fits their original style pretty well. But with AoS they were supposed to be going in a bold new direction.
You can put "steampunk dwarves" into your search engine of choice and come up with lot of material. It is a very well worn idea. There are already other companies out with models that would fit perfectly into the look and scheme.

It does nothing to show that they can be original or do new and interesting twists on the existing. It really just seems like it reinforces the "someone on the design team thinks this would be cool so now we have to make rules for it" sort of mentality they've been labeled with for the last years.

[Cheesegear]

I just want to see how hard they push the 'Sky Pirates' theme. Because the Fyreslayers' fluff sucks, and the Dispossessed are basically the same as Dwarves ever were.

[Professor Chimp]

And based on how over the top and sci-fi-ish these look, I won't be surprised in the slightest if folks take these models and play them in 40k as a Counts-As Space Marine army or something, just so they can have Squats.And you'd be right. If I still played 40K, I would actually consider doing that.

[Grim Portent]

I just want to see how hard they push the 'Sky Pirates' theme. Because the Fyreslayers' fluff sucks, and the Dispossessed are basically the same as Dwarves ever were.

Isn't Fyreslayers' fluff basically 'we're looking to collect all the magical gold that is all that remains of our dead god, to this end we sell ourselves as mercenaries to anyone who isn't Chaos and wander around the realms. Also fire! FIRE! FIREEAHAHAHAHA!'?

[Killer Angel]

I just want to see how hard they push the 'Sky Pirates' theme. Because the Fyreslayers' fluff sucks, and the Dispossessed are basically the same as Dwarves ever were.

I really like them, it's a logical evolution of things like the gyrocopter / bombardier, and I find them far more appealing (to me, at least) than the fyreslayers.
You can't go wrong with steampunk dwarves. :smallbiggrin:

Grudgesettler bombs! (https://postimg.cc/image/gi7e28guf/)

[Cheesegear]

Isn't Fyreslayers' fluff basically 'we're looking to collect all the magical gold that is all that remains of our dead god, to this end we sell ourselves as mercenaries to anyone who isn't Chaos and wander around the realms. Also fire! FIRE! FIREEAHAHAHAHA!'?

Grimnir (possibly Gotrek, I guess) a God of the World-That-Was, is chained up on a mountain, Prometheus-style. Sigmar releases him, and tells Grimnir to fight one of the Star-Gods, the Fire Dragon Vulcatrix. In one of the most METAL! things to ever happen, the Slayer-God fights the Dragon Fire-God, and they both explode, showering the Realm of Fire in meteors and smashing one of the mountain ranges to bits.

Duardin fluff all goes downhill from there.

[Beelzebub1111]

I am curremtly in a path to Glory campaign and am getting my ass handed to me. I am playing Beastmen with a Slaanesh lordon a daemonic mount. The biggest problem is the Tzeentch player. With the Lord of Change, he consistantly summons soulgrinders and more lords of change, the only way to beat him is to get within 9 inches of him in the first round, if you go second you lose. Period.

I can't wait until we go back to the map campaign

[Drasius]

I am curremtly in a path to Glory campaign and am getting my ass handed to me. I am playing Beastmen with a Slaanesh lordon a daemonic mount. The biggest problem is the Tzeentch player. With the Lord of Change, he consistantly summons soulgrinders and more lords of change, the only way to beat him is to get within 9 inches of him in the first round, if you go second you lose. Period.

I can't wait until we go back to the map campaign

This is why summoning costs points in matched play - If you play narrative/open and don't have houserules on summoning, it's going to be a faceroll 9 times out of 10 for the summoning player unless you can remove all those wizards before they really get any steam up. Unfortunately, as you said, that translates to - before they get a turn, but if you can alpha 2/3 of any army off the table, your list is probably going to do fairly well regardless...

[Beelzebub1111]

Ordinarily summoning isn't a problem. But for the Tzeench player is roling 3 dice changing the lowest die to the highest then add 1 to the two highest of that. That makes a normally difficult roll of 10 very easy to summon another lord of change which can then summon

[Cheesegear]

Ordinarily summoning isn't a problem. But for the Tzeench player is roling 3 dice changing the lowest die to the highest then add 1 to the two highest of that. That makes a normally difficult roll of 10 very easy to summon another lord of change which can then summon

Ever played against a Nagash? Or Slann?

[Erloas]

So I don't know why I'm still getting emails from GW... but anyway I see they sent out something on "two new armies" for 40k. Is it just me or are the "Sisters of Silence" just a renaming of "Sisters of Battle?" And more to the point (and why I'm posting here) aren't they basically just Stormcast with more sci-fi swords and the pecs are a bit differently shaped...

It really is like they aren't even trying any more. Their new army is a renamed old army, all of their vehicles are recycled marines, and their infantry are slightly recast models from AoS. They didn't even change the color scheme from the Stormcast.

[Cheesegear]

Is it just me or are the "Sisters of Silence" just a renaming of "Sisters of Battle?"

Not even close. They're completely different.


aren't they basically just Stormcast with more sci-fi swords and the pecs are a bit differently shaped...

Custodes? Yeah. Kind of.


Their new army is a renamed old army

No they're not.


They didn't even change the color scheme from the Stormcast.

Except if you knew your 40K fluff, you'd know that Custodes have been gold for like 20 years, and Sisters of Silence have been gold since at least Collected Visions (2007), which is, itself, a compilation book, so the original images would have been produced before then.

EDIT: This post is barely related to Sigmar, so I'll stop.

[Tome]

So I don't know why I'm still getting emails from GW... but anyway I see they sent out something on "two new armies" for 40k. Is it just me or are the "Sisters of Silence" just a renaming of "Sisters of Battle?" And more to the point (and why I'm posting here) aren't they basically just Stormcast with more sci-fi swords and the pecs are a bit differently shaped...

It really is like they aren't even trying any more. Their new army is a renamed old army, all of their vehicles are recycled marines, and their infantry are slightly recast models from AoS. They didn't even change the color scheme from the Stormcast.

As CG said, Sisters of Silence and Custodes are old concepts that have been in the fluff for ages but only just been given models. Models that are pretty accurate to their art depictions.

Though it is a bit disappointing that they lumped them with standard marine vehicles instead of the grav-rhinos and what have you that they're also supposed to have.

[Beelzebub1111]

Ever played against a Nagash? Or Slann?

I thankfully have not. Although I do field a Great Bray Shanan so I can't quite talk too much. Casting roll 9 to get any chaos monster. Behind enemy lines no less.

That said 9 is hard to get off without any boosts

[Requizen]

Did ok at Adepticon AoS events. 3-0 in the first Vanguard, 2-1 in the second, 3-2 in the champs. Ran Hammerstrike force for the 1000 events and Skyborne Slayers with Longstrikes and Fulminators for the 2000, think the Fulminators may have been a mistake overall, but they sure are a hate magnet.

New Stormcast book is quite good. Staunch Defender + Mirrorshield on the General is super strong and the Luckstone makes the Venator's one shot pretty reliable. I only used the Battletrait a couple times, probably should have abused it more. Still, first big tourney with the Stormcast and felt pretty good about it! Hope to start putting up better scores.

Was thinking of starting something new, but with moving and the new edition of both 40k and TGH coming out I think that's a bad idea. Probably just gonna finish painting what I have for now and see what comes at the end of the summer.

Anyone else had noteworthy AoS happenings? The scene is getting pretty strong it seems, more and more events and clubs starting up all the time. How are your clubs and games going?

[LeSwordfish]

There's an AOS "Kill Team" campaign over easter at my local GW, and I'm thinking of picking up some Wood Elves of some kind to join in. Any thoughts on Glade Guard/Sisters Of The Watch/Shadow Hunters?

[Requizen]

Glade Guard are a bit one-trick. When they pop their -3 Rend shooting, they're one of the most damaging things in the game, but in regular shooting they're pretty average at best. Sisters of the Watch are overall better, but 100 points more expensive is pretty rough. However, double shooting with a better profile and "overwatch" is really solid. Maybe one of each?

I can't find Shadow Hunters anywhere, though. Wildwood Rangers?

[LeSwordfish]

Shadow Hunters are the other thing in the box with the Sisters, but maybe they're High Elves instead?

[Requizen]

Ah, I see them now. Under Swifthawk Agents for some reason.

200 for 10 feels a bit steep, but on the other hand they're both capable in melee and ranged, decent move, and essentially have a really powerful Scout move, so that's pretty interesting. I think they could be a cool all-arounder, depending on what points you're playing at.

In small games, I think any of those three options could be pretty good since you can play tricksy and go around with feints and shooting to whittle down most armies before the fighting even starts. Fast things like Destruction moves or Cavalry might force a bit more caution, but that comes down to playstyle. I think it could be great fun though!

Aelves in general seem to have a lot of overpriced infantry, but honestly I'm not familiar enough with their synergies and tricks to say if it's appropriate or not. I would imagine some of them to get a look in GHB2, I think they've priced a bit high on some units that have shooting attacks.

[JNAProductions]

Why do Bloodthirsters have more wounds than Great Unclean Ones?

[Requizen]

Probably because the GUO has more going for it. Ignoring wounds on a 5+, regaining d3 per turn, and it's a Wizard so it always can cast Shield on itself. Plus, Tallyband makes it even harder to attrition down.

But mostly probably because of the new model. I would expect a new GUO to have a massive model and more representative wounds.

[LeSwordfish]

I had my first game of Age Of Sigmar the other day, a scenario game where randomly-controlled monsters spawned in around me and my opponent (with 12 wounds worth of independently-acting models each) as we tried to gather treasure. It felt more than a little flat, really - more fun than i'd had with Kill Team, but perhaps that's because I was winning. A lot of things just felt broken - my shooting got significantly more effective once I got locked in combat, because I wasn't moving so all my "bonus attacks for not moving" effects triggered. I expressed confusion at this, and the blackshirt who was refereeing cheerily said "well, you've got a whole army of Legolas!" I decided not to ask what the rationale was for goblins doing the same thing. I'm probably going to keep playing in this narrative campaign, and I've worked out that I could have a neat 1k points list with only two-three more boxes, but I can't see myself continuing beyond that.

I do like the "keywords" system though - it seems a lot neater than the various "friendly units" "units from the same detachment" "units from the armies of the imperium regardless of detachment but only on a tuesday" qualifiers that 40k is weighed down with. It's probably flexible enough to expand and use more things for over time, such as "Battleline" etc.

[Cheesegear]

I do like the "keywords" system though

One of my confusions (it's not a gripe, per se), is that a great many of the Keywords don't appear to mean anything. At least, not in the Order book. I know that Keywords are a big deal in the Chaos book. But, even then, some Keywords don't mean anything in that book, either.

[LeSwordfish]

They don't need to: it's not really like you need to know them by heart. And part of the point is that it categorises it, so you can have something that, say, re-rolls to wounds against Aelves, without needing the equivalent of the bit in the CSM books where they have to print a massive list of space marine factions because nobody actually defined what a Space Marine is.

[Requizen]

I had my first game of Age Of Sigmar the other day, a scenario game where randomly-controlled monsters spawned in around me and my opponent (with 12 wounds worth of independently-acting models each) as we tried to gather treasure. It felt more than a little flat, really - more fun than i'd had with Kill Team, but perhaps that's because I was winning. A lot of things just felt broken - my shooting got significantly more effective once I got locked in combat, because I wasn't moving so all my "bonus attacks for not moving" effects triggered. I expressed confusion at this, and the blackshirt who was refereeing cheerily said "well, you've got a whole army of Legolas!" I decided not to ask what the rationale was for goblins doing the same thing. I'm probably going to keep playing in this narrative campaign, and I've worked out that I could have a neat 1k points list with only two-three more boxes, but I can't see myself continuing beyond that.

I do like the "keywords" system though - it seems a lot neater than the various "friendly units" "units from the same detachment" "units from the armies of the imperium regardless of detachment but only on a tuesday" qualifiers that 40k is weighed down with. It's probably flexible enough to expand and use more things for over time, such as "Battleline" etc.

Things that feel broken seem to have had their ups and down in the last year of Sigmar. Shooting felt broken, and then less so as melee heavy armies, especially those with extra moves or teleports, became strong. They're pretty good right now, but only in the context of a couple undercosted units (Kurnoth Hunters, Tzaangor Skyfires), most gunline lists don't do that well against meta armies, though I did see a couple Free Peoples armies go 3-2 and 4-1 at Adepticon, so it depends on the players for sure.

What's your Narrative list like? I don't see a lot of Aelves so it sounds cool!

[LeSwordfish]

My 12-wound "kill team" is:
Waywatcher (on average 2 wounds per turn with Rend-1, Overkill against hordes but absolutely mullered the Stormcast, Command Ability reduces to-hit),
four Sisters of The Watch (Shoot twice if they don't move, leader shoots four times, have Overwatch, do bonus Rend against Chaos),
three Glade Guard (can get treasure, more Narrative than the Shadow Hunters).

The narrative is treasure hunting in an old elven city being consumed by the Realm of the Dead, so it's Illyria's Watch - a small group of hunters and watchwomen venturing into the city for the first time to claim their relics from those who would sell them as trinkets.

My 1000-point list is something like:

Waywatcher
Nomad Prince
3x 10 Glade Guard
10 Sisters
10 Shadow Hunters
With something like 100 points left. I've spotted how to get 3+rr save Eternal Guard so might take some of them to camp cover.

I've converted both Waywatcher and Nomad Prince up from Glade Guard parts, and painted a test model of each the sisters and the guard, so I might put some pictures up when i'm home.

[Requizen]

Sounds like a lot of fun! I want to get in more Narrative stuff, there's a big one in the area in a few months and we're doing a Regiments of Renown league right now so it's a nice change of pace from just Matched all the time.

[Adrastos42]

One of my confusions (it's not a gripe, per se), is that a great many of the Keywords don't appear to mean anything. At least, not in the Order book. I know that Keywords are a big deal in the Chaos book. But, even then, some Keywords don't mean anything in that book, either.

I figure it's just future-proofing. It doesn't cost anything to be thorough with keywords now, and it might be helpful later.

[LeSwordfish]

I played two more games in the "Dark Deeds" campaign - you can get Treasures, which mean gold (to spend on gear, new members, and replacing dead ones) and XP (to spend on team buffs and expanding your territory.) Each army starts with 12 wounds and can go up to fifteen.

First game: four-way brawl vs Stormcast Eternals (with hammers), Stormcast Eternals (with bows), and Seraphon

Two Treasures were right in the centre of the board, so instead of going to them I swept sideways to catch the Seraphon as they were leaving.
It was a pretty good plan, only spoiled by the arrival of a Wandering Monster pack of Ghouls, who chowed down on one of my Watch Sisters and tarpitted the rest for a few turns.
Seriously, one of them took like an entire army's worth of shooting and DID NOT DIE.
I also fired a few Arcane Bodkins out of the Melee at Zilli-Zilli, the Seraphon skink-priest who somehow had a 3+ save. He took a long time to kill too.
I offered one Stormcast player a deal - if he went for the other Stormcast instead of me, I'd leave one of the two central treasures for him. He refused.
After several extremely hairy combats in a row, I beat down the skinks with the treasure and made a dash for it - only to be caught by Leonidas, a Retributor-Prime. Illyria, my Waywatcher, stuck him in the ankle with a point-blank Damage 2 arrow, and although she got her ribs stove in with a dirty great hammer straight afterwards (three attacks, two sixes for Three Mortal Wounds each) the Lord's Bowman of the Glade Guard finished him off.
With both treasures from the centre of the board and one of my own, I was able to make a dash off the board edge.
Illyria and the single sister were my only casualties - Leaders always recover, and with my bounty of gold I was able to hire back the sister, hire another and two more glade guard, and even pick up full plate armor a mithril coat for Illyria, boosting her to a 2+ save!


The poor Seraphon player was wiped out, while everyone else was more or less fine. He gets to start again with a new 12-wound warband though.

Second Game: against the bow/big hammer Stormcast from before

Killing Leonidas reduced him to Half Move for a game, so he trundled gently across the board as my elves elf all over the place to collect three treasures again.
He kills several of me as I elf my way over to him, and then another Sister in close combat before my shooting counts and kills all of his models. Illyria takes out Leonidas again - I suspect a rivalry is building here.
All that treasure allows me to replenish my force, and all that XP goes towards expanding me across the campaign map and putting me tied for lead with the Seraphon player.


A good couple of games! I'm going to try not to break the campaign system too badly - I've already got a 2+ on my Waywatcher and one free casualty replenishment per game - but I suspect that the games being so swingy that sooner or later I'll lose everything and have to start again.

[Requizen]

I played two more games in the "Dark Deeds" campaign - you can get Treasures, which mean gold (to spend on gear, new members, and replacing dead ones) and XP (to spend on team buffs and expanding your territory.) Each army starts with 12 wounds and can go up to fifteen.

First game: four-way brawl vs Stormcast Eternals (with hammers), Stormcast Eternals (with bows), and Seraphon

Two Treasures were right in the centre of the board, so instead of going to them I swept sideways to catch the Seraphon as they were leaving.
It was a pretty good plan, only spoiled by the arrival of a Wandering Monster pack of Ghouls, who chowed down on one of my Watch Sisters and tarpitted the rest for a few turns.
Seriously, one of them took like an entire army's worth of shooting and DID NOT DIE.
I also fired a few Arcane Bodkins out of the Melee at Zilli-Zilli, the Seraphon skink-priest who somehow had a 3+ save. He took a long time to kill too.
I offered one Stormcast player a deal - if he went for the other Stormcast instead of me, I'd leave one of the two central treasures for him. He refused.
After several extremely hairy combats in a row, I beat down the skinks with the treasure and made a dash for it - only to be caught by Leonidas, a Retributor-Prime. Illyria, my Waywatcher, stuck him in the ankle with a point-blank Damage 2 arrow, and although she got her ribs stove in with a dirty great hammer straight afterwards (three attacks, two sixes for Three Mortal Wounds each) the Lord's Bowman of the Glade Guard finished him off.
With both treasures from the centre of the board and one of my own, I was able to make a dash off the board edge.
Illyria and the single sister were my only casualties - Leaders always recover, and with my bounty of gold I was able to hire back the sister, hire another and two more glade guard, and even pick up full plate armor a mithril coat for Illyria, boosting her to a 2+ save!


The poor Seraphon player was wiped out, while everyone else was more or less fine. He gets to start again with a new 12-wound warband though.

Second Game: against the bow/big hammer Stormcast from before

Killing Leonidas reduced him to Half Move for a game, so he trundled gently across the board as my elves elf all over the place to collect three treasures again.
He kills several of me as I elf my way over to him, and then another Sister in close combat before my shooting counts and kills all of his models. Illyria takes out Leonidas again - I suspect a rivalry is building here.
All that treasure allows me to replenish my force, and all that XP goes towards expanding me across the campaign map and putting me tied for lead with the Seraphon player.


A good couple of games! I'm going to try not to break the campaign system too badly - I've already got a 2+ on my Waywatcher and one free casualty replenishment per game - but I suspect that the games being so swingy that sooner or later I'll lose everything and have to start again.

That sounds like a lot of fun! What system are you guys using for that, Hinterlands?

[9mm]

So I've got a ton of non-gw minis built up from D&D, but have no games to use them in. How tied to GW models is AoS? Could I use my collection in non-sanctioned games, or am I better off trying to find another game?

[Requizen]

So I've got a ton of non-gw minis built up from D&D, but have no games to use them in. How tied to GW models is AoS? Could I use my collection in non-sanctioned games, or am I better off trying to find another game?

You can use whatever you want as long as it's recognizable as what it is and your opponent is ok with it. If you go to a GW store you wouldn't be able to use them and tourneys are hit or miss. But casually sure just do whatever.

[Erloas]

So I've got a ton of non-gw minis built up from D&D, but have no games to use them in. How tied to GW models is AoS? Could I use my collection in non-sanctioned games, or am I better off trying to find another game?
I guess it would mostly depend on what you are looking for in a game.
There are a lot of board games out that would easily use other models in place of the models or tokens they come with. Quite a few too that blend the lines between table top war games and board games.
You want to use as many of the models as you can at once or maybe swap between different models each time you play?

Not knowing what you have, I would guess trying to play AoS would give you small parts to many armies but doubt you would have almost duplicates of a type of model to have a playable force.

[Requizen]

So Seraphon, an army long regarded as somewhere just above unplayable, took 4th at the largest AoS tournament in the world. Granted, it was mostly because Kroak + Balewind absolutely demolishes most Daemon armies which are prevalent right now, but still, it's refreshing to see.

In personal news, finally have enough Vanguard-Raptors to run the nasty meta Aetherstrike list. Can't wait to bring it to a competitive game and see how it does.

[Requizen]

Livestream is up! Lots of interesting info!

[Requizen]

Edit: wrong thread.

[Cheesegear]

So, I'm reading this funky fresh Kharadron Overlords book. Borderline unplayable without Arkanaut Frigates.
Basically, Dark Eldar, but for Sigmar.
I don't care. Dwarven Sky-Pirates. Lookin' like Skyrim's Dwemer. Sign me up.
Cost of a Frigate; $165 AUD.

I'm out.

Posted from phone.

[Requizen]

So, I'm reading this funky fresh Kharadron Overlords book. Borderline unplayable without Arkanaut Frigates.
Basically, Dark Eldar, but for Sigmar.
I don't care. Dwarven Sky-Pirates. Lookin' like Skyrim's Dwemer. Sign me up.
Cost of a Frigate; $165 AUD.

I'm out.

Posted from phone.

Yeah even at US prices it's hard. I wanted to get a 1000 point force just for kicks, but the ships are... prohibitive. If I was going to go all in and make it my main army, sure, but it's difficult to justify that price for a side force.