Some DMing help please?

[GreyBlack]

Okay, so. I'm running a campaign that my players and I have jokingly taken to calling the "Dark Souls" campaign. Basically, I'm looking to effectively challenge my players and have them interact with the world in a sense instead of just running from point A to point B. I'll admit to being kind of old school, from the ages of AD&D 2nd edition, so something I've noticed is that the problems can feel somewhat game-y in 3.x onward. So... I wrote up a Kingmaker style romp with the following character creation rules:
1) Character creation is 4d6 drop lowest in order
2) Your character has no memory of their past
3) You begin with no equipment.

In doing so, I was attempting to evoke a horror aesthetic, more of a survival-esque story where the heroes rise to the top against extreme odds.

So, dropping the players into their jail cells (with some basic starting equipment, including some basic spell components if necessary, I'm not that horrible), we began the campaign. There are 2 players, a Druid and a Sorcerer, so I decided to have them start by fighting 3 skeletons when they popped out of their cells. Their builds are generally good, I looked them over to make sure there were no glaring weaknesses, and I let them go at it.

At which point things promptly went downhill. The party even TPK'd against a pseudo-planned random encounter (9 jail cells in their cell block, of them there was a random chance of there being a 1-2 zombies, an empty cell, a fellow prisoner who did essentially nothing but sit and stare at a wall, various alchemical items and significantly better equipment than they could normally afford at that level), so I offered the players a reset. They agreed, saying they wanted to keep their characters (I did take half the XP they had earned to that point), and they continued on.

So... I'm a little concerned that I may have to buff the PC's a bit. The encounters I'm designing aren't necessarily tough, but they do take some strategic thinking (e.g. hall full of armor with one of the armors being a Guardian Phantom Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/phantom-armor/phantom-armor-guardian), which they got halfway to figuring out how to solve it (i.e. Detect Magic)). Especially seeing as there are two of them, I'm considering letting them gestalt to bring the power level of the group up somewhat, likely letting them gestalt T5-6, as one explicitly said he would like to go monk in addition to his other class. However, I have a 2 part question:

1) Do you feel that my encounters are being overly hard for the players, especially given their starting handicap?
2) Is gestalting the best way to help my players out?
3) Can anyone think of another way that I can help them out?

Thank you so much in advance!

[Bucky]

You're using lower CR encounters to compensate for the smaller party, right? What level are your characters?

[rrwoods]

My two cents: if you're doing any sort of "random in order" ability score generation, allow the player to swap any one generated score with the CON score. It can be exciting to make something out of a wonky set of scores, but getting dicked with a crap CON score is never any kind of fun, wacky or otherwise.

[GreyBlack]

You're using lower CR encounters to compensate for the smaller party, right? What level are your characters?

Level 1 party. I'm generally keeping the CR's at 1/3 to 1. The CR 2 they fought was more of the "boss monster" trap which could have been avoided had they searched the previous hallway. There was a secret door which allowed them to bypass that part of the hallway.

They're also generally very successful at handling CR 2 creatures, even at level 1 in a party of 2, so I am somewhat perplexed.


My two cents: if you're doing any sort of "random in order" ability score generation, allow the player to swap any one generated score with the CON score. It can be exciting to make something out of a wonky set of scores, but getting dicked with a crap CON score is never any kind of fun, wacky or otherwise.

Actually? They got really lucky with a 17 Con Oread Sorcerer and a 14 Con Drow Druid, so I'd normally consider your suggestion... except in this case. Also, the Druid traded his animal companion, so that's a thing. Hence my considering allowing them to Gestalt with a t5-6: Hopefully, one of them will take Fighter for a tanky type.

[LTwerewolf]

There's significance in that their weapons aren't fully effective against zombies and skeletons due to the dr 5/bludg and the dr 5/slash. Any time they don't have the appropriate weapon for the encounter, it reduces their damage by a significant margin. The damage reduction increases their effective hit points by quite a bit. It makes the druid and the companion much weaker than they generally would be. The sorcerer's spells run out quickly and they're left with very low damage cantrips to try to get them through things. Remember that level 1 is hyper lethal regardless of most other things, just because a single hit can down a pc. A crit can outright kill them with some weapons from full health. All of this together puts them in a very rough position when it comes to actually dealing enough damage to kill things.

Were the players aware the campaign was going to be like this? If they weren't, their expectations could have also led them astray. When players have the expectation for one type of campaign when it's actually another, the way they think about problems is different.

How much do you describe? In the type of game you're running, the smallest details can make a huge difference. Try describing to them more of their surroundings, giving them more potential options (including things you don't think of which makes the game far more interesting).

[GreyBlack]

There's significance in that their weapons aren't fully effective against zombies and skeletons due to the dr 5/bludg and the dr 5/slash. Any time they don't have the appropriate weapon for the encounter, it reduces their damage by a significant margin. The damage reduction increases their effective hit points by quite a bit. It makes the druid and the companion much weaker than they generally would be. The sorcerer's spells run out quickly and they're left with very low damage cantrips to try to get them through things. Remember that level 1 is hyper lethal regardless of most other things, just because a single hit can down a pc. A crit can outright kill them with some weapons from full health. All of this together puts them in a very rough position when it comes to actually dealing enough damage to kill things.

Were the players aware the campaign was going to be like this? If they weren't, their expectations could have also led them astray. When players have the expectation for one type of campaign when it's actually another, the way they think about problems is different.

How much do you describe? In the type of game you're running, the smallest details can make a huge difference. Try describing to them more of their surroundings, giving them more potential options (including things you don't think of which makes the game far more interesting).

The world is pretty vividly described. Even questions I didn't initially think of are described pretty fully when asked (for example, one of my players asked if the floor was stone for his Oread ability, which I responded that it was, which he used to major effect). However, the players do have methods to deal with all of the damage types presented so far (Sorcerer has been spamming Disrupt Undead to great effect, while the Druid has both a club and a broken scimitar at the moment. I intentionally planned it that way so that they could at least account for damage typing. In addition to this, there are some optional mini-bosses on the first floor that they opted not to fight which would have given them substantial amounts of food, water, and equipment they could survive on).

The players were aware at the outset that I was going to be running a hard-mode, old-school campaign, with my initial statement being to think Dark Souls. Generally, when they've run campaigns, it's been somewhat Monty-Hall-esque. Which is fine, but can get tedious at times, so I wanted to try and keep things fresh and bring a taste of the old days into the new age. Which is not to say that I've been unfair; for example, with the random Zombie chances, I telegraphed to the players that there were slats in the doors that they could check in to see what was inside which, to their credit, they've been checking. In the hallway of armor, I told them that there were magic auras on all of them; while the sorcerer didn't concentrate to differentiate the magic (illusions vs necromancy), he did come up with a way through the trap. Which is exactly what I wanted; I wanted my players thinking outside the box for solutions and I really want to reward them for it.

ACTUALLY.... Originally, I had planned to use the "regaining memories" mechanic as a way to give them trait bonuses. Would it be outside of the realm of plausible to use their first memory upgrade to give them Gestalt access to a class? Or use the upgrade to give them a free VMC? They're just about at level 2 right now (if they hadn't died, they would be 2 right now), so granting them a VMC at 3 to shore that up might help but.... opinions?

[LTwerewolf]

I am VERY much not a fan of gestalt. In fact I would go so far as to say I loathe it. It doesn't solve the problems that a lot of people claim it does. It doesn't make the characters twice as powerful, but it tends to make the dm make the encounters twice as powerful to compensate. In fact, often the gestalt doesn't end up doing a whole lot of anything unless the right class pairs are picked.

You would be better served going mythic imo.

[Ignatius Flamel]

I suggest allowing a "flashback" or some other triggered memory effect to unlock Mythic tier 1, with the "Dependency" Mythic Flaw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/running-a-mythic-game#TOC-Mythic-Flaws) and no way to regain Mythic power except via Mythic Boons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/running-a-mythic-game#TOC-Mythic-Boons).

The bonus HP and mythic bonus feat will be kept even if they suffer from the Dependency flaw and "lose their mythic power"...similarly, the ability bonuses at Mythic tier 2/4/6/8/10 will be kept in these circumstances.

[Geddy2112]

Your encounters are not hard because of the handicap, your encounters are hard because 3 skeletons are going to roflstomp 2 full casters at level 1. Since the druid does not have an animal companion, they are basically feeble casters with no armor asking for death. At level 1 full casters are about as durable as cake frosting, but soon they won't be.

Their AC is at best 13, right? If you gave the druid leather armor and a shield maybe a 16? Numbers are going to overwhelm them. A few good hits and they will drop. Likewise, they have no BAB so at best they get a +3 from attacks/damage from ability mods. Using a broken weapon hurts that, and god forbid they have negative dex or strength...

A skeleton has 16 AC, so they probably won't land hits very often and being broken won't do much damage. The disrupt undead cantrip helps a lot hitting touch and bypassing DR, but still not enough. The druid and/or sorcerer should be mending the weapons to even have a chance of connecting and doing damage.

Gestalting would help but it won't solve the problem of numbers and makes them even stronger gods at higher levels. I suggest an NPC for at least first level. Once they get to level 5 a druid and sorcerer will be mopping the floor with most encounters, and by double digits they are basically gods. You can make the NPC Hodor level mental stats so they are incapable of solving puzzles or offering any non physical assistance. Still keep the puzzle and problem solving aspects in the forefront-if they don't bypass the dangerous monster their NPC won't make much difference, but having a third body/tank/heavy hitter at this level is life and death vs some zombies. They still have to ration limited healing and spells to help/buff or potentially lose Hodor.

Still lethal problem solving dark souls vibe, but with a buffer to get out of level 1. By level 3, they won't need an NPC or gestalt levels.

[Caedes]

Their AC is at best 13, right? If you gave the druid leather armor and a shield maybe a 16? Numbers are going to overwhelm them. A few good hits and they will drop. Likewise, they have no BAB so at best they get a +3 from attacks/damage from ability mods. Using a broken weapon hurts that, and god forbid they have negative dex or strength...


I fully agree with Geddy. lvl 1 is hell on a full caster, when they do not have a meat shield in front of them. There is truth behind the concept that a lvl 1 caster will die to a house cat.

I would consider giving them the slight buffer that Geddy spoke of. They will not need it long and it could give you a hook for later in the campaign. After all. "Hodor" did save their lives and since he is not that smart who knows what kind of trouble he could get into...

[GreyBlack]

I'm kinda liking the Hodor idea. At least until they get through the first dungeon (takes them through ~level 2.5.

Thankfully, though, the sorcerer took eschew materials, so that's no issue. Really, that is their only issue, the lack of someone to tank for them. Thanks for the advice all!

ETA: That's not to say that the casters are dumb. For example, they're targeting touch when they can, and the sorcerer took Mage Armor, boosting his AC to a whopping 17 right now.

[trikkydik]

I am a DM in a 2PC campaign, so i definitely feel your struggle on this topic. I'm actually hoping we could collaborate on this.

My world is probably similar to yours in the aspect that it is chaotic and dangerous. (every session has had close calls.)

Here's what i incorporated into my campaign:

Many NPC's (to offer crowd control, and a means of survival during dangerous encounters)
-The Leadership feat is essentially worthless. They can have as many companions as they want to have, as long as they successfully role play the interactions.
-Im considering Gestalted classes. (in which everyone in the internet suggested for a <3 man campaign)
-Their stats and abilities are seriously beefed up.
-I gave them many feats for free. (combat casting, run, endurance, die hard, overchannel, and a few others that fit into each players MO)
-I was semi liberal on the magical items and equipment they started with. (1 magic weapon or arms of reasonable quality.)

The world i made up is a little different, so certain scenarios will work for mine that don't work for yours. (And vice versa.) Also i started my PC's at level 8, well hopefully go till we get to the end of the world.

But to make some sort of 'end goal' i came up with 8 magical artifacts that all adventurers in this world aspire to acquire. (lol poetry)

the items are all magical:
1.) helmet (Grants unbelievable divination, bordering predicting the future. Also mind control, and knows the locations of all the other 7 artifacts.)
2.) weapon (double sided sword, one side is divine light damage, the other is divine dark damage. i think theyre both 10d6. Also capable of a ray attack)
3.) armor (Literally indestructible and shapechange at will.)
4.) amulet (Nullifies all magic, except wearer. grants all kinds of evocation style spells. capable of mass killings Xnumber/month or [year havent decided.])
5.) ring of death (im sure you can imagine that)
6.) ring of life (same here)
7.) Boots (capable of traveling to any plane of existence at will.)
8.) psy-crystal (this one is pretty weird. It contains the will of a godly psionic creature. So the crystal grants the owner abilities that originate from the monster. But i use this crystal to create evil spawns.)

The legend states that if any one person acquires all 8 items they become a god.

To top that off i made some 'Boss' NPC's that have either 1 or 2 of the items in their possession. And those are the respective Antagonists of their associated country/region.

So far its been very entertaining and fun. But its always a struggle from my DM perspective because sometimes i throw too much at them and it takes away from the game.

I guess another tip i discovered is to give my PC's a means of 'divine' escape. (because in a 2 man campaign, lets face it, i cant kill them. that would stop the campaign in its tracks.)

Each DM has his own personal style, but i place the most emphasis on role playing. And i keep the game fast paced. (Ex- if the campaign is in combat, and one of the players is rummaging through the books and not paying attention, i make him suffer huge penalties.)

I've learned how to turn a 1 on a D20 into a "Epic failure of success"

(Example - during the encounter with the flock of 8 Fire-breathing drakes, they had jumped off of a high mountain cliff, and were free falling for a really long time. That's when the drakes noticed them, and attacked.
I said, "The drakes are preparing a coordinated fire blast, you each see fireballs gathering in their mouths."
I counted to 10 and said, "Times up, what will you do?"
1 player said, "flail about and try to 'Fall away'"
I said, "HAHAHA, awesome, roll the D20"
He rolled a natural 1.
I said, "you smash your head on the side of the mountain, take xD6 damage. The recoil from hitting the mountain, on your head, bounced you to safety just barely missing the fireblast."
the other PC said, "i uhhhhh.... i uhhhh.."
He got burned really bad and almost died.

I think i just went on a stupid tangent that didn't help, but its more effort at this point to delete it all. lol.

I suggested the Gestalted thing yesterday to my PC's and ill let you know what happens from it.

After reviewing this thread i think i provided no helpful input lol. sorry about that.

To answer your questions though.
1) Do you feel that my encounters are being overly hard for the players, especially given their starting handicap?
I think you know that answer better than anyone. IMO id say no. I find that the more difficult the struggle, the better the PC's become.
2) Is gestalting the best way to help my players out?
LOL i dunno, ill try it next session and let you know if it works. but honestly, since you prefer old school i don't think it would help much. maybe better off getting cohorts or a NPC to help them a little
3) Can anyone think of another way that I can help them out?
If you read through my rant, i was hoping to maybe help out a little with "big picture topics." (again it was all just suggestions, take with a grain of salt.) But it sounds like your campaign is solid, and you'll perfect it over time
Good luck fellow DM.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Maybe instead of full on Gestalt, just "gestalt" a tasty Template or Race (aka remove the LA, maybe do it on a Savage style progression).

Letting the Sorcerer have a couple of extra spells known or so for each spell level will also help him a lot, especially with a Druid by his side. Less dependency on Scrolls and magical items.