Continuous wondrous items with dischargeable effects?

[Xarteros]

Hey all, I was browsing some elemental-themed wondrous items and I came across the "Heart of Water/Earth/Air/Fire" spells. Each one has some passive bonuses and can be discharged for a relevant spell effect, ending its remaining duration. Stuff like Light of Lunia would also be decent examples.

My question is: If I make a continuous wondrous item for the passive effects of the spell, how would the activated effects work? Would it merely suppress the passive bonus for a round (as if the spells effects are renewed once per round)? Would the activated functions even be usable, or usable more than once?

I'm looking for any RAW that might indicate how this functions, or even precedent items from official sources that function on a similar basis. If, for instance, it says somewhere that continuous spell effects from items only apply once per round, that would probably be enough to get my answer

I'm not really looking for house rules/opinions, since my DM is the go-to guy for that one way or another, but he accepts basically any official rules (because anything the players can exploit, he can also exploit to keep things balanced).

Thanks in advance :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

You'd have a continuous effect, plus daily charges, with the continuous effect only active so long as a charge remains. The warlock's scepter is an example of this type of item, off the top of my head.

Another somewhat obvious example would be a wand of heart of water, which simply uses the normal duration of the spell, including the option to discharge it.

[Xarteros]

The issue with the Warlock's Scepter is it has limited charges, and is therefor more like a wand than a wondrous item.

It's a good precedent for having the passive be negated when the effects are discharged, but I still need something that would determine how the activated effect is replenished.

If I, for instance, made this a command-word item instead of a continuous item (with no limit to charges per day), could I activate the passive effects as if the spell were cast, discharge the activated effects at my leisure, and simply re-activate the item on the following round?

[Troacctid]

It is very common for wondrous items to have limited charges. Look in the Magic Item Compendium, it's full of them. Anklet of translocation, healing belt, belt of battle, and scout's headband are some prominent examples.

If you have an item that just casts heart of water at will, then all the wielder has to do is activate it several times at the start of the day, have a bunch of instances of the spell running concurrently, and discharge them one at a time, leaving no need to re-activate the spell after discharging. That would make it effectively a continuous freedom of movement effect, and it would be priced accordingly. (Continuous freedom of movement is worth 40,000 gp, according to precedent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#freedomofMovement).) I imagine you would save a lot of money by making it 1/day instead.

[Âmesang]

I certainly saved a lot of money by stuffing 'em into a runestaff but I'm also fine with simply having each spell be cast once per day and working normally; I hadn't thought about 'em being continuous.

…I have been wondering if having all four spells active actually counts as the equivalent of "heavy fortification" or if it just prevents extra damage and nothing more. :smalltongue:

EDIT: I suppose I can imagine them being priced like a continuous per-round item which would effectively allow you to use the swift action functions at will.

[Xarteros]

I certainly saved a lot of money by stuffing 'em into a runestaff but I'm also fine with simply having each spell be cast once per day and working normally; I hadn't thought about 'em being continuous.

…I have been wondering if having all four spells active actually counts as the equivalent of "heavy fortification" or if it just prevents extra damage and nothing more. :smalltongue:

EDIT: I suppose I can imagine them being priced like a continuous per-round item which would effectively allow you to use the swift action functions at will.

It mentions in the subtext that if all 4 spells are active you gain immunity to crits and sneak attacks, so yes.

See, that's the style of effect I was thinking about. If the spell could re-cast itself every round, assuming they don't actually stack, you would have the option to use any single one of the activated functions (but not all, because they take swift actions to activate) which would negate the passive bonus for the remainder of that round.

I can't seem to find any rules that mention how a continuous effect is actually applied (like activating/renewing per round) or what parameters 'use activated' items can have beyond the basic 'swing the sword, don the hat, drink the potion' ones. Heart of Fire has a +10 bonus to land speed, so if I can activate the effect of a magic sword by swinging it, could I not also activate the spell-replication effect of some 'Heart of Fire boots' by taking a step?

As a side note, can you activate multiple command-word abilities simultaneously? I've always felt that it's silly to ever require a standard action to speak a command word, and if you're creating a permanent-use item with several activated spell effects, I'm not sure if you could activate them all at once or if you had to do it one-by-one. I know several items from MiC have a swift/immediate/free mental action to activate, but I can't seem to find any source on why they work the way they do (since many of their activation methods work contrary to the standard spell effects). Ideally, I'd love to pay extra for the ability to use free-action mental commands, and then I could just make the item I need refresh itself at my will.

I appreciate the help so far guys =)

[Troacctid]

I can't seem to find any rules that mention how a continuous effect is actually applied (like activating/renewing per round)
Continuous really just means change the duration to permanent. Instead of 1 hour/level or until discharged, it would be permanent until discharged. I'm guessing you probably don't want it to effectively be a consumable item, which is why I suggested having it recharge every day.


or what parameters 'use activated' items can have beyond the basic 'swing the sword, don the hat, drink the potion' ones. Heart of Fire has a +10 bonus to land speed, so if I can activate the effect of a magic sword by swinging it, could I not also activate the spell-replication effect of some 'Heart of Fire boots' by taking a step?
Taking a step as a standard action, yes. Taking a step as part of normal movement, no. Activating a spell from an item always takes the same action as casting the spell normally unless the item's description states otherwise, so unless you're basing the item on Quickened Heart of Fire and pricing it accordingly, it'll be a standard action.


As a side note, can you activate multiple command-word abilities simultaneously?
Only if they have free action activation times.


I know several items from MiC have a swift/immediate/free mental action to activate, but I can't seem to find any source on why they work the way they do (since many of their activation methods work contrary to the standard spell effects).
For game balance. The items would be unattractive to players otherwise. You can read about the design of the MIC in this article series: Part 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a), Part 2 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070309a), Part 3 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070316a)

[phlidwsn]

The issue with the Warlock's Scepter is it has limited charges, and is therefor more like a wand than a wondrous item.

Look at the MIC version, not the original from Complete Arcane. It went from 50/ever to 5/day as I recall.

[Xarteros]

Continuous really just means change the duration to permanent. Instead of 1 hour/level or until discharged, it would be permanent until discharged. I'm guessing you probably don't want it to effectively be a consumable item, which is why I suggested having it recharge every day.


Taking a step as a standard action, yes. Taking a step as part of normal movement, no. Activating a spell from an item always takes the same action as casting the spell normally unless the item's description states otherwise, so unless you're basing the item on Quickened Heart of Fire and pricing it accordingly, it'll be a standard action.


Only if they have free action activation times.


For game balance. The items would be unattractive to players otherwise. You can read about the design of the MIC in this article series: Part 1 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070302a), Part 2 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070309a), Part 3 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070316a)

Yeah, the main thing I want to avoid is the technicality of it being completely consumed by discharging the activated effect, but I just can't find any specific rules to support how many charges per day (if any) it's limited by etc. As it stands, a command word activated item would seem the most useful for them. Not being able to activate them all is pretty stupid in its own right, since it doesn't take a full round to say a word, and you would normally be able to say a word as part of any action since it's free. The DMG mentions that command words can be basically anything, with examples listed of short words. What it ought to be is that speaking the word is a free action, but it takes a standard action for the item to actually produce the effect, unless there is some other reason it needs to take a standard action to talk.

If you can swing a sword as part of a full round action and the continuous magic effect comes into play effectively freely, would a continuous effect of Heart of Fire not also be activated as part of a movement action? Discharging would still clearly need the swift activation, since that's inherently part of the effect. I'm just trying to see the exact borders of the confining rules, I don't even really need to use these spells specifically.

My issue with the MIC's swift/immediate/free mental actions is that so many potential items depend on that kind of usage, but there isn't any rule I can find to govern when they are appropriate. Third Eye Clarity gets an immediate action to negate a single incoming stun or daze, which is a mandatory way to activate it since you can't use an action to negate a stun or daze that is already affecting you. While I suppose I can argue to make comparable items function with the same action by using items like that as precedent, I'd still love to find some rules somewhere that mention when they might be appropriate to have. My DM is always pretty open to suggestions, but both of us prefer finding and following a rule to minimise the amount of house rulings we need to keep track of.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, the main thing I want to avoid is the technicality of it being completely consumed by discharging the activated effect, but I just can't find any specific rules to support how many charges per day (if any) it's limited by etc.
That's because it's a custom item. You have to decide how many charges you want it to have. Fewer charges means a lower price.

Incidentally, there do already exist non-custom items that just straight-up cast heart of air 2/day (for 4,420 gp) and heart of water 2/day (for 10,900 gp) at the minimum caster levels: eternal wands, found on page 159 of the Magic Item Compendium.

The rules for custom runestaffs are also very clear-cut and formulaic—a runestaff containing a single daily charge of each of the four spells would cost 7,900 gp: 200*(spell level)^2 for the highest level spell, plus 100*(spell level)^2 for each other spell. That's a fairly deep discount compared to command-activated items, and it comes with the very helpful perk of using your caster level.


As it stands, a command word activated item would seem the most useful for them. Not being able to activate them all is pretty stupid in its own right, since it doesn't take a full round to say a word, and you would normally be able to say a word as part of any action since it's free. The DMG mentions that command words can be basically anything, with examples listed of short words. What it ought to be is that speaking the word is a free action, but it takes a standard action for the item to actually produce the effect, unless there is some other reason it needs to take a standard action to talk.
You should be casting the spells at the beginning of the day, not during combat, so the action economy of the command words probably won't matter.


My issue with the MIC's swift/immediate/free mental actions is that so many potential items depend on that kind of usage, but there isn't any rule I can find to govern when they are appropriate. Third Eye Clarity gets an immediate action to negate a single incoming stun or daze, which is a mandatory way to activate it since you can't use an action to negate a stun or daze that is already affecting you. While I suppose I can argue to make comparable items function with the same action by using items like that as precedent, I'd still love to find some rules somewhere that mention when they might be appropriate to have. My DM is always pretty open to suggestions, but both of us prefer finding and following a rule to minimise the amount of house rulings we need to keep track of.
The sidebar on page 233 of the Magic Item Compendium sort of explains it.


If you can swing a sword as part of a full round action and the continuous magic effect comes into play effectively freely, would a continuous effect of Heart of Fire not also be activated as part of a movement action? Discharging would still clearly need the swift activation, since that's inherently part of the effect. I'm just trying to see the exact borders of the confining rules, I don't even really need to use these spells specifically.
Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/basics.htm#usingItems) is the relevant rule.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
Continuous items generally do not require activation, though.

[Xarteros]

Thanks for the feedback mate =)

See, I was considering some form of price reduction to limit the activated powers to X uses per day, but I just can't see a way to neatly retain the passive powers, which are the part I want more.

I love the theme of the spell, being able to focus the power into some short burst abilities, and I feel like a magic item with that sort of potential would be really nice to have, to bust out with some extra power when needed but have useful passives in between.

Fair point about buffing at the start of the day, I'm normally dealing with much shorter duration buffs when it comes to magic items so I keep forgetting that these ones last hours. Still, it feels weird that even in that psionic item activation you linked me, it specifies that it's a standard action just to think the command to your item. Half my issue with weapon enchantments is that the ones I want all tend to be on standard actions, so stacking them means walking around with weapon drawn and active all the time, or walking into battle and spending the first 5 rounds talking to my axe =P

Could anyone who can craft psionic items be able to apply that same mental trigger to a magic item? Or do all of those activation methods just represent the powers that the item emulates? I'm a bit unfamiliar with psionics, since I've never had a DM who allows them (mostly to keep games streamlined)

[Troacctid]

It's the same (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems) for magic items, I just linked the psionic version of the page by accident.

[Xarteros]

It's the same (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems) for magic items, I just linked the psionic version of the page by accident.

Well, a command thought at least wouldn't require you to make a sound

[Âmesang]

It mentions in the subtext that if all 4 spells are active you gain immunity to crits and sneak attacks, so yes.
"Yes" to what? :smallconfused: Specifically the text says, "you become immune to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks."

I've this feeling that an assassin's death attack would still work, regardless of damage. Effectively it becomes a sneak attack doing +0d6 damage, no?

[Xarteros]

Ah, I see what you mean now. I guess RAW, it technically doesn't state that you're immune to the actual attempt, but RAI seems pretty clear on that one.