Ship to Ship Combat - Input Required

[Beleriphon]

Hi All,

I'm working on something for a home game and wanted to solicit some input. I'm working on bodging out some rules for ship to ship combat for D&D 5E, with the possible end result being a DM Guild product, if I think they're good enough.

I'm looking for the playground's input into what you would want to see ship to ship rules do. I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts mechanics of the rules since I'm just starting, but I do want to know what kind of things you would want characters to do in a naval conflict, as well what kinds of things ships should be able to do.

For example should ships have a turn rate, or should it be simple like characters. Movement speed in feet, knots, MPH, or all three? Types of ships, classic trireme style ramming galleys working along side 16th/17th century galleons?

[MrStabby]

Different styles of ship and advantages to different styles.

Different propulsion systems and different advantages to each.

Clarification / quantification of spell effects of interest in naval combat - wind spells, fire spells, freezing spells.

Clarification on rules of who can be picked out at what range - can you dominate the helmsman of another ship for example (ok, this may not be a solid rule but a guideline could be given).

How flying interacts with ships - especially cover from rigging, sales etc..

Effects of massive damage vs lots of small damage.




For a start... I may revisit if I think of more.

[CursedRhubarb]

Ship to ship fighting can be an amazing opportunity only limited by your creativity and the time you have to prepare options and setup for it.

Different ship types is great since there are so many possibilities with different civilizations using different types. Most designed for a special purpose and will Excell in that but be weaker in others. For example: a ship designed for speed isn't likely to be heavily armored but keeping up with it could be tough if it runs. One designed to be a floating fortress would be heavily armed/armored but might have medium or slow speed or maneuverability.

Casters can make twists in design too. You can have them specialize in a role but may want to be careful with them. They could be for utility with spells to maneuver the ship and boost speed and clear hazards, defensive with spells to counter casters and create cover, or offensive with spells to blow opponents out of the water.

Ships arms can be deadly and efficient but might want to give cannons, ballista, and catapults a recharge time of 1d6 rounds or more so they don't just cleanse the deck of opponents or players 2-3 rounds in.

[Beleriphon]

Ships arms can be deadly and efficient but might want to give cannons, ballista, and catapults a recharge time of 1d6 rounds or more so they don't just cleanse the deck of opponents or players 2-3 rounds in.

In character rounds a ship is weapon can fire once every 1d4+2 rounds, with a reduction for each crew member manning it (minimum 2 rounds).

[CursedRhubarb]

In character rounds a ship is weapon can fire once every 1d4+2 rounds, with a reduction for each crew member manning it (minimum 2 rounds).

Ah. In that case may want to be sparse with the cannons then and not use historical models. If I'm remembering right a cannon does about 8d10 damage so going up against, say, a man-of-war would be nuts with 56 cannons split into 3 teirs on each side. Even a lvl 20 party would have it rough. (Would mean dodging 448d10 worth of damage every 2 turns or 144d10 to 160d10 every turn if they alternate levels. o.o holy crap)

[Kurt Kurageous]

I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts mechanics of the rules since I'm just starting, but I do want to know what kind of things you would want characters to do in a naval conflict, as well what kinds of things ships should be able to do.

When you are ready to start with the mechanics, seriously look at building on the "official" mass combat rules "Unearthed Arcana: When Armies Clash." It addresses a lot of basic issues you will need to address, and might just keep things simple enough to play.

I would expect rules covered rate of turn in a realistic way relating to the prevailing wind, making wind spells super useful.

I would expect two or perhaps three part HP totals for ships, the hull, the rigging/steering, and the propulsion system if it didn't use the wind exclusively. Ships are really a system of systems, and can be attacked as such.

I would expect critical hits to cause leaking, among other things. Normal hits would just not mean as much. I would expect a ship and crew to have a damage control rating that controls leaking. And leaking does additional HP damage as well as reduces movement towards zero while reducing rate of turn.

I would expect crew experience to matter a lot. I expect fires on board would matter a lot. I would expect ships to have a lot of HP and would expect ship AC to be quite high. I would expect the gnomes would be amazing shipbuilders if they turned their mind to it.

Weapons size rule for Huge should be considered to reduce the damage done by handheld weapons. In effect, a medium attacker that would reduce the number of damage dice by two, meaning most mediums would do only their damage plusses on a successful hit.

I would expect most attacks to be disadvantaged due to the fact that both ends of the shot are moving in three dimensions when on the ocean, less so when on a lake or river.

I would expect that the day you finish writing these rules, WotC will come out with their version and make you very mad. I'd lay even odds that their rules will be less fun than yours. It's happened before.

[MaxWilson]

Hi All,

I'm working on something for a home game and wanted to solicit some input. I'm working on bodging out some rules for ship to ship combat for D&D 5E, with the possible end result being a DM Guild product, if I think they're good enough.

I'm looking for the playground's input into what you would want to see ship to ship rules do. I don't want to get into the nuts and bolts mechanics of the rules since I'm just starting, but I do want to know what kind of things you would want characters to do in a naval conflict, as well what kinds of things ships should be able to do.

For example should ships have a turn rate, or should it be simple like characters. Movement speed in feet, knots, MPH, or all three? Types of ships, classic trireme style ramming galleys working along side 16th/17th century galleons?

I'd want to see two versions:

(1) Simple, results-oriented table for when the PCs are not in control of the ship or don't want to do tactical maneuvering. The goal of this table will be to resolve the maneuvering as quickly as possible and come up with a result: boarding action? PCs escape? bad guys escape? PCs' ship is now sinking? Then the PCs resume play at a normal timescale.

This version probably only needs to be a table to roll on and a list of modifiers, maybe two pages in length total.

(2) Tactical combat a la Spelljammer rules. Speed can be in standardized hexes (Spelljammer used 500 yards to the hex) at whatever timescale is convenient (1 turn per minute for spelljamming ships, maybe as slow as one turn per hour for sailing ships). Facing is extremely important, and wind factors are also potentially very important. The focus should be on giving the players interesting choices to make which actually affect the result of the combat. It will be good if the effects of various spells (Fabricate, Mending, Fireball, Weather Control) on ship-to-ship combat and/or repair/logistics are defined in a concrete way.

Types of ships don't matter much unless they also behave differently in combat or between combats. Cargo capacity, ability to sail against the wind, number of crewmen needed are all potentially interesting but might be out of scope for your product.

I'd totally buy a high-quality 5E-updated set of Spelljammer rules for ship combat. So far I've just done conversions on the fly during play, since my players don't know the SJ rules anyway and are more interested in the results (see point #1 above) so they can hit things with their axes and steal treasure from the neogi.

[ClintACK]

Ah. In that case may want to be sparse with the cannons then and not use historical models. If I'm remembering right a cannon does about 8d10 damage so going up against, say, a man-of-war would be nuts with 56 cannons split into 3 teirs on each side. Even a lvl 20 party would have it rough. (Would mean dodging 448d10 worth of damage every 2 turns or 144d10 to 160d10 every turn if they alternate levels. o.o holy crap)

A cannon isn't a crossbow. They are aimed at ships, not people.

When a cannon hits the ship in the same 10' cube as a character, you *might* want to add some splinter damage, but I'm thinking 2d6 (easy dex save for half). You might model grapeshot (antipersonnel shot, like bird shot in a shotgun) or an explosive shell as a low number of d6 with a dex save for half, the first in a cone or line and the second in a sphere at range.



I'd totally buy a high-quality 5E-updated set of Spelljammer rules for ship combat. So far I've just done conversions on the fly during play, since my players don't know the SJ rules anyway and are more interested in the results (see point #1 above) so they can hit things with their axes and steal treasure from the neogi.

Me too!

[Regitnui]

The 3.5 book Stormwrack had ship stats and combat; admittedly, it was only slightly less bewildering than the usual standards of optional rules in that edition, so I wouldn't claim to be able to give you the gist without reference. I do remember they had something like 6-8 ship styles before Eberron came along with their various (3 water vessels and airships) elementally-powered ships.

[Beleriphon]

Thanks for all of the input folks, keep it coming if you think of anything. You're all on the same page as me, in general at least. I'm thinking of using 30 second or 1 minute combat rounds for ship to ship combat. That way I can represent ships move more slowly than characters, and using character level abilities from the deck of rolling galleon isn't exactly easy.

Thoughts on statistics that ships should have? A size category, AC/HP, damage reduction, speed, turn rate?

I was also thinking since this is a fantasy game I'd have in crazy stuff like gnomish submarines, dwarven ironclad galleys, and what not.

I'm also considering a customization option, like the players want to add more weapons, or make the ship have better AC. That might be more effort that I want to expend at this point.

[MBControl]

One easy rule I would add would be no idivual targeting until a ship is grappled or boarded. Your large weapons can target the front middle or back of the ship, and sails/masts or hull. When the ships meet and become tied together it then becomes a raiding party encounter.

I do think there should be a turn radius and unit of distance. I don't think it will really matter what unit you choose.

If you're familiar with a collectible mini game called Pirates! you could check out there rules, and use them as a guideline to base your rules around. I played it for fun a few times and It covered a lot of the things you'll run into. They also make for awesome, cheap player tokens.

Here's a link: http://ceruleansgames.tripod.com/potcs20061124.pdf

[MaxWilson]

Thoughts on statistics that ships should have? A size category, AC/HP, damage reduction, speed, turn rate?

There needs to be some kind of physical basis for all statistics. Tonnage is a good one to start with.

If everything is defined in physical (as opposed to gamist) terms, that will also give you a good baseline for anyone (DM or player) who wants to start doing physical modifications to their ship. Instead of tweaking stats directly, they'll be tweaking parameters which have an impact on stats.

You'll probably also need to refine the rules for object breakage as part of this rules module, since breaking objects as well as people is what naval combat is all about. The DMG rules for objects simply won't cut it; they're physically ridiculous.

[Beleriphon]

One easy rule I would add would be no idivual targeting until a ship is grappled or boarded. Your large weapons can target the front middle or back of the ship, and sails/masts or hull. When the ships meet and become tied together it then becomes a raiding party encounter.

I do think there should be a turn radius and unit of distance. I don't think it will really matter what unit you choose.

If you're familiar with a collectible mini game called Pirates! you could check out there rules, and use them as a guideline to base your rules around. I played it for fun a few times and It covered a lot of the things you'll run into. They also make for awesome, cheap player tokens.

Here's a link: http://ceruleansgames.tripod.com/potcs20061124.pdf

I was thinking of giving weapons a seige quality, in that they do double damage against objects like creatures that a Seige Monsters (the tarrasque is a good example) and then having them attack at disadvantage against anything that is Huge or smaller.

[Regitnui]

OK, looking at Stormwrack, a ship had the following traits; Sections, areas of the ship that could be aimed at; Propulsion; and Maneuverability in either Poor, Average or Good levels.

The stats block included Size, Seaworthiness ("HP"), Shiphandling (agility), Speed, Overall and Section AC, Number of Hull sections, a Sink number (how many Hulk Sections could be lost), Section HP, Rigging Sections and HP, Ramming damage (how much the ship could do per 10 feet travelled), Mounts (weapon mounts), Space (how big the ship is on a grid), Main Deck Height, Watch (active crew), Complement (full crew), Cargo Capacity and Cost.

My advice? For 5e, narrow that down as much as possible. People don't like having to wade through numbers to get to play.

[Beleriphon]

OK, looking at Stormwrack, a ship had the following traits; Sections, areas of the ship that could be aimed at; Propulsion; and Maneuverability in either Poor, Average or Good levels.

The stats block included Size, Seaworthiness ("HP"), Shiphandling (agility), Speed, Overall and Section AC, Number of Hull sections, a Sink number (how many Hulk Sections could be lost), Section HP, Rigging Sections and HP, Ramming damage (how much the ship could do per 10 feet travelled), Mounts (weapon mounts), Space (how big the ship is on a grid), Main Deck Height, Watch (active crew), Complement (full crew), Cargo Capacity and Cost.

My advice? For 5e, narrow that down as much as possible. People don't like having to wade through numbers to get to play.

Oh yeah, I checked Stormwrack, it has some good ideas of a theatre of the mind kind of combat not that dissimilar to the Star Wars Revised rules. I'm looking more for Star Wars Saga Edition, especially with the rules for multiple PCs having rolls on the ship. So, I'm going to definitely check out Stormwrack for weather rules ideas, since I want the drama of hunting pirates in a raging hurricane.