Building a Bully Support

[Blackjack488]

So...I play a lot of 3.5 and Pathfinder, and one thing I love doing is playing support characters (especially those with utility or defensive roles, like Alchemists or Tanks). But one thing I've thought of recently that I want to do for an upcoming campaign is to play a support who's built around pushing people around and intercepting damage. So if an enemy assassin jumps past our front line and goes for our healer, I want a character who can get in the way, block their attacks, then shove that assassin to some disadvantageous position where they can't hurt anyone. Essentially, Bull Rush on steroids.
She would presumably have a lot of Strength and Constitution, giving them good tank stats and plenty of shoving-capacity. For weapons, I can't imagine her using anything other than a massive shield, simply because a tank-support probably isn't doing much DPS. As for the rest, pretty much anything goes, though I imagine Dexterity and Intelligence would be secondary priorities (for the movement speed buff to get where I'm needed, and simply because I personally dislike playing dumb characters from a roleplaying perspective)

However, I'm having some trouble figuring out a class/multiclass that would suit such a role. A friend of mine pointed me toward the Warlord (specifically the Marshal), but that wasn't quite what I had in mind, as it seemed more like a warrior-bard than anything. Someone else pointed me toward a Monk/Barbarian multiclass, but I have very little experience with multiclassing, and since both classes seemed built around sustained damage, I'm not sure if that works, either (though I do like it from a character perspective). And since this seems like a rather odd role to have in the general playerbase (at least the one I have exposure to), I decided I'd ask for help from you guys.

So what do you guys think? What kind of class/multiclass/build should I shoot for to get a tanky defensive bully of a support? Is it even possible to do so?

Looking forward to any assistance at all. ^^

~Blackjack

[The Glyphstone]

Are you sure this is meant for 3.x? You mention Warlords, but the only class of that name is a 3rd party Pathfinder class. 4E has Warlords, though, and a Monk/Barbarian multiclass in 4e would actually be possible as well, but its not in 3.x.

[Blackjack488]

Admittedly true. The game is intended for 3.5, however, and he was using those classes as potential examples. He also mentioned that he was willing to adapt those classes to fit the system, though I'd rather stick to 3.5 classes if I can. Sorry for the confusion.

[Gildedragon]

You want an Intimidate focused build probably
Barbarian or Crusader work nicely for that
DScP's PoW Warder does too, but it isn't Cha focused iirc

[Troacctid]

For weapons, I can't imagine her using anything other than a massive shield, simply because a tank-support probably isn't doing much DPS.
Not a good assumption—the best tanking classes also tend to be damage-dealers with Strength as a primary stat, and reach weapons, which are almost always two-handed, are by far the best for defending due to the increased area you can control.

Some good examples of classes you might pick:

Crusader: Probably the strongest "tank" class in the game. Fills the role right out of the box with powerful Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and is also a potent melee threat.

Cleric: Melee-focused clerics make great defenders because they are strong and tough in a fight while also being able to efficiently use spells to hinder enemies and support allies. They can also summon extra meatshields with summoning spells, and use Shield Other to take damage for their friends. Many cleric prestige classes are focused around this concept, including Ruby Knight Vindicator, which combines cleric with crusader.

Favored Soul: See cleric.

Dragonfire Adept: Very consistent class that delivers no-save AoE debuffs while face-tanking with lots of HP.

Champion of Gwynharwyf: Very much a bully who charges in and scares the bad guys away. Has a reasonable selection of support abilities combined with offensive and defensive melee power and fear effects.

Incarnate: Good and Lawful incarnates combine strong defensive stats with a wide variety of utility effects. Evil ones deal a bit more damage instead, but get a zombie meatshield, which is fine too. The class works great with a dip in crusader or warblade to get some extra punch.

Bard: Bard is one of the few classes that can actually force enemies to attack you, thanks to its enchantments. You also get some nice buffs and debuffs. It's very possible to build a bard for melee, although it takes a fair amount of system mastery, and the small hit die is a little awkward. The animal companion variant helps a ton for this kind of build because it literally gives you an extra guard dog trained to defend your team.

Fighter (Dungeoncrasher): You mentioned bull rushing. This is the only class that really focuses on bull rushes, unless I'm forgetting something. (There's like Master of the Unseen Hand or whatever, but I'm not counting telekinesis.) It does so in a very aggressive fashion and tends to be a primary damage-dealer—a glass cannon, even—rather than a tank.

[Ger. Bessa]

In 3.5, absorbing damages in your HP stat isn't a good strategy. good "Tanks" aren't defensive, they are lockdown controllers like trippers with big range, polymorph grapplers or staredown intimidators.

If you let the monsters get to your HP, it still costs your team ressources, wich is bad. The only way to do that is to be a summoning caster and let the summoned monster/nature's ally take the hits (and even that costs you daily spells, but they also deal damage and grapple/trip). For that kind of build, look for druid handbooks or "Mastering the Malconvoker".

[Blackjack488]

Out of all of these listed, the Crusader, Champion of Gwynharwyf, and Dungeoncrasher all sound the closest to what I had in mind. The Crusader has insane survivability, especially with things like Steely Resolve, Furious Counterstrike, and Mettle; the Champion provides resistances no one else could get to, along with the rage that I found appealing from the Monk/Barbarian multiclass; the Dungeoncrasher has the right feats for the job, though they lack the kind of survivability I'm after. Honestly, if it were possible to blend the three together, that'd be ideal, though I think Dungeoncrasher with a more tanky setup would be the easiest to build.


In 3.5, absorbing damages in your HP stat isn't a good strategy. good "Tanks" aren't defensive, they are lockdown controllers like trippers with big range, polymorph grapplers or staredown intimidators. If you let the monsters get to your HP, it still costs your team ressources, wich is bad.

While that is true, the key element here is that my super-tanky, super-defensive character is the one getting hit, rather than the cleric, bard, or assassin who would suffer greatly from the blow. Between being built for it and having an enormous shield, my AC would probably be much higher than the guy behind me. And even if the blow gets through, it likely wouldn't be enough to cripple or kill someone who's built for having a lot of HP. Sure, getting hurt is still bad, but not as bad as losing a cleric mid-battle. After that, you can use Bull Rush, fear-inducing feats, or even basic attacks to scare them away and keep them from your squishier party-mates. This would produce something like a front-/mid-line defensive character, or at least that's what I have in mind. Hope that makes sense.

[Gildedragon]

The good karma luck feat might be up your alley

[Waker]

The others have already made most of the good suggestions. But another old option would be the Devoted Defender from Sword and Fist. Requirements aren't that hard to meet. It's got a d12 HD, full BAB, good Fort and Reflex, an AC bonus, the option to swap places with your defended target, block attacks for your defended target and you get AoOs when someone attacks your defended target in melee.

[Quertus]

The others have already made most of the good suggestions. But another old option would be the Devoted Defender from Sword and Fist. Requirements aren't that hard to meet. It's got a d12 HD, full BAB, good Fort and Reflex, an AC bonus, the option to swap places with your defended target, block attacks for your defended target and you get AoOs when someone attacks your defended target in melee.

Ah, good, I'm not the only one who knows about the Devoted Defender.

Statistically, I think it's pretty bad - but that didn't stop me from taking it. :smallwink: Mixed with Crusader, it might not be too shabby.

[Troacctid]

Out of all of these listed, the Crusader, Champion of Gwynharwyf, and Dungeoncrasher all sound the closest to what I had in mind. The Crusader has insane survivability, especially with things like Steely Resolve, Furious Counterstrike, and Mettle; the Champion provides resistances no one else could get to, along with the rage that I found appealing from the Monk/Barbarian multiclass; the Dungeoncrasher has the right feats for the job, though they lack the kind of survivability I'm after. Honestly, if it were possible to blend the three together, that'd be ideal, though I think Dungeoncrasher with a more tanky setup would be the easiest to build.
They'd be fairly easy to combine.

Ape-Totem Barbarian 3/Dungeoncrasher Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Crusader 1/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10/Crusader X would be a fine build, I think. For feats, you'd probably want Righteous Wrath + Knight of Stars (prerequisites), Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper (for the bull rush effects more than the Power Attack buff, although the uber-damage option is still nice to have), Knockback (if you can get big enough; permanency + enlarge person is about 3000 gp off an NPC spellcaster and does the trick pretty nicely), Combat Reflexes, maybe Imperious Command (good with Fearsome armor from Drow of the Underdark).

[Blackjack488]

Good luck Karma feat sounds almost like the bread and butter of this build, along with Bull Rush, Knockback, and Shield Defender/Shield Mate (or something similar). That sounds like a pretty solid start to shoot for, and things that I can get relatively early on. Everything else is an improvement on those or something else useful (but less useful). That's a good start, and a solid foundation. Awesome.


Ape-Totem Barbarian 3/Dungeoncrasher Hit-and-Run Fighter 2/Crusader 1/Champion of Gwynharwyf 10/Crusader X would be a fine build, I think.

That is a LOT of multiclassing for a first multiclass character. I think I could pull it off, but is there any way to make it a little more straightforward while keeping the same idea?

[Troacctid]

That is a LOT of multiclassing. I think I could pull it off, but is there any way to make it a little more straightforward while keeping the same idea?
If "the same idea" is a combination of the three, then no—by definition, you can't combine three different classes in one build without having three different classes in your build. :smalltongue: (Well, four classes in this case, since Champion of Gwynharwyf is a prestige class strictly for barbarians, so it counts as two, since you need the barbarian levels.)

If you remove any of the three, then you could of course have fewer classes.

[Blackjack488]

If "the same idea" is a combination of the three, then no—by definition, you can't combine three different classes in one build without having three different classes in your build. :smalltongue: (Well, four classes in this case, since Champion of Gwynharwyf is a prestige class strictly for barbarians, so it counts as two, since you need the barbarian levels.)

If you remove any of the three, then you could of course have fewer classes.

XD Yeah. By "same idea", I meant the overall role. Mostly the four core feats I mentioned, the tank stats, and any other way there is to make this character fit the frontline/midline defense/support role.

If that's as simple as it gets, though, that's fine. I'm just trying to make my life (and my DM's life) a little easier. XD