DM being unreasonable? Moral questions?

[Mink]

Now, I've been in this campaign of a friend of mines for about 6 months and I really like it. Unfortunately we are only 3 players atm since 3 weeks back and its showing. Our DM has kept the cr since we were 4 and as a result 2 of the 3 players has died once each so far. Now I'm not a DM or has any experience of it but it seems reasonable enough to change that? This way we'll have to run from every encounter and the story is going nowhere.

Now hold on, it gets worse.

Our DM kinda has his "favorite" and "disliked" characters. He helped one of our players making a barbarian/goliathan (since she's never played melee before), min/maxing it aloooot. Now i personally dont have that kind of issue with min/maxing if the character by personality/background wants to be the best at certain things. But here's the deal. She dies the first session with the character. By a curse from an undead (never got to know but prob mummie). Her Large War Axe is melted by some ooze creature. We try chopping off her arm from where the curse is spreading. She dies anyway, turned into ashes. We put her ashes in a jar, take some of her stuff which we carry around for a while. The end right?

Nope. Next session we play shes back, no explanation on how. Her large axe is back. She was put in a jar. The jar is empty now. She didnt have any godly posessions/connections. She also didnt get any kind of penalties from being revived. She's just exactly the same as before and claims she doesnt remember anything. And now she's asking for her equipment back. And I'm like heeeell no. In my eyes she died fair and square. Am I obligated to give her the stuff back? I feel really like the DM just threw his DM magic all over this and nothing happened even tho we know she died. I haven't been in alot of other campaigns before so I dont know if this is that normal? I also feel really uncomfortable knowing that her character died and she's just back now, I mean, I cant even tell how my own character would act around her anymore. Should I be looking for a new campaign?

[GreyBlack]

Did you ask the character how they came back? Maybe the DM and player did a 1 on 1 session which resulted in the resurrection of the character.

If the player can provide an adequate explanation for their resurrection (e.g. "I fought through the depths of hell and climbed the highest peak to be awarded resurrection," or even something as cheesy as, "The curse provides me with immortality, but eats away at my soul whenever I am resurrected."), then I would have no problem with giving the character's equipment back.

On the other hand, if they have no memory, I would be fundamentally distrustful if they had no memory and was suddenly, magically alive. How am I to know that they're not now under the control of some demon lord, seeking to destroy the party from within? As such, I would ask the character how it happened and, if nothing, keep their stuff.

[martixy]

Well, it might be the beginning of something interesting, if played right.

IMO, you can't draw reasonable conclusions from isolated cases.
But you might ask the DM if he's planning something or even just voice your concerns straight out. Even if he was doing it for bad reasons, you might managed to guilt him into pulling off something interesting. :)

[TheCrowing1432]

Wait so, the DM is a dude, and the player is a girl?


Kind of obvious whats going on here.

[Mink]

Did you ask the character how they came back? Maybe the DM and player did a 1 on 1 session which resulted in the resurrection of the character.


We asked her character multiple questions of course on how they came back to life, who they are, and every question was just answered with "I dont remember" or "I dont know". We also tried casting stuff to remove curse, remove poison, turn undead, etc. but it didnt have any effect. We're currently lvl 7 which isnt really a level where true resurrection occurs by chance. I should explain we were in an abandoned mining dungeon when she died and it was just sand all over the ground (bunch of other people who had died) and not a trace of anyone else (we checked the whole place). :smallfrown:

The player told me after she died that she was planning on making a monk afterwards but apparently that didnt happen.

[Jay R]

Ignore it. Really. That's not an important question.

Is the game enjoyable? If it is, then continue playing. If it isn't, continue stopping.

The good fortune of a single other player isn't inherently a bad thing, and something you don't understand isn't inherently a bad thing.

You don't know what happened, and cannot find out any way other than playing. If some god intervened in a way that will affect the party and open up new adventures eight levels from now, no amount of prying will convince the DM to give away his plot. Live with ignorance.

The DM has a favorite player? Fine. Overall, that helps the party.

You don't know how your character would react? How would you feel in person if you thought a friend and partner had died, and they re-appeared alive? Overjoyed, right? That's how your player should react, too.

Suppose my friend Rob died, and his wife gave me his comic book collection. If it turned out to be a mistake, and he's really alive, then of course I give him his comics back.

You aren't playing against her. This is a cooperative game, and she is your teammate against the monsters you fight.

I suspect he's being overly generous to a player. That doesn't hurt you, unless the real issue is that you want your teammate's stuff. In which case, your lack of teamwork is as much a part of the problem as what the DM did. are playing against her. Stop doing it. Get back to playing as a member of the party. You'll have a lot more fun.]

You mentioned but did not describe that he had "disliked" characters. This is a much bigger concern than a "favorite" character. If you have an example, even a small one, of the DM giving somebody less than he or she deserves, that's a real danger signal. That's the issue that might make you decide to leave the game. Not because you don't know whether or not he was nicer to one of your partners than maybe he should have been.

[dude123nice]

Ignore it. Really. That's not an important question.

Is the game enjoyable? If it is, then continue playing. If it isn't, continue stopping.

The good fortune of a single other player isn't inherently a bad thing, and something you don't understand isn't inherently a bad thing.

You don't know what happened, and cannot find out any way other than playing. If some god intervened in a way that will affect the party and open up new adventures eight levels from now, no amount of prying will convince the DM to give away his plot. Live with ignorance.

The DM has a favorite player? Fine. Overall, that helps the party.

You don't know how your character would react? How would you feel in person if you thought a friend and partner had died, and they re-appeared alive? Overjoyed, right? That's how your player should react, too.

Suppose my friend Rob died, and his wife gave me his comic book collection. If it turned out to be a mistake, and he's really alive, then of course I give him his comics back.

You aren't playing against her. This is a cooperative game, and she is your teammate against the monsters you fight.

I suspect he's being overly generous to a player. That doesn't hurt you, unless the real issue is that you want your teammate's stuff. In which case, your lack of teamwork is as much a part of the problem as what the DM did. are playing against her. Stop doing it. Get back to playing as a member of the party. You'll have a lot more fun.]

You mentioned but did not describe that he had "disliked" characters. This is a much bigger concern than a "favorite" character. If you have an example, even a small one, of the DM giving somebody less than he or she deserves, that's a real danger signal. That's the issue that might make you decide to leave the game. Not because you don't know whether or not he was nicer to one of your partners than maybe he should have been.

I personally disagree with your opinion that there is nothing wrong with a DM having a favorite player, even if we leave out the "disliked" part. It's inherently unfair to other players and of course they won't like it. IMHO these are all signs of a bad DM.

[Dousedinoil]

Whenever I kill off a character in my campaign, I always give the players the option to bring them back somehow. At a low level they can't res or wish them back. It's not surprising that she just appeared. People getting emotionally invested in their characters and the DM clearly threw a new player a bone. If a player came up to me after the session and said that it makes them sad and ruined the game for them, you wouldn't say "Too bad, no fun for you."

Also it doesn't sound like he's playing favourites to the point where it's significant. He did kill of your character too and decide NOT to bring him back.

[NamelessNPC]

Maybe she was resurrected because it's the first time she plays, and the dm doesn't want her to have a bad time and leave? You did mention that the group has shrunk recently...

Other than that, as someone has already said, she was a girl, he was a boi, can I make it any more obvious.

[Jay R]

I personally disagree with your opinion that there is nothing wrong with a DM having a favorite player, even if we leave out the "disliked" part. It's inherently unfair to other players and of course they won't like it. IMHO these are all signs of a bad DM.

We can certainly disagree, and that's fine.

If I get the challenge, and loot, normally expected for a character my level, it doesn't bother me that somebody else gets more. Similarly, in the real world, if I get paid what I'm worth, it doesn't bother me that somebody else makes more.

It's not "inherently unfair" to me if I get everything I deserve. It's just not. If I'm having fun, it won't bother me at all.

I'm here to have fun, not to compete with other players. A powerful weapon given to my teammate is being used on my enemies. Net gain to me. I figure I get value out of each item my teammates have.

The only way it could be a problem is if it means that I don't have a challenge any more. But that hasn't been suggested. The real issue seems to be that the OP wants more than one person's loot, and is having to give the excess back. That is not "inherently unfair".

More importantly, we don't know what's coming. There is way too much hidden information for us to have an informed opinion about the matter. The person with the free resurrection may have to pay off a debt, or may be the target of some monster now. It may be related to the plot hook for an adventure five levels away.

I have to trust the DM to play at all. If I trust him, then I'm going to assume that he knows what he's doing.

I once had a group facing giant spiders. When the miniatures went on the table, I saw serious fear in one person's eyes, and they instantly became the wimpiest spiders ever. Each one died to a single hit, and the minis were *off* the table instantly. That was "unfair", if you like. I gave them too easy an encounter. I don't apologize.

In the game I'm currently playing, one character has had an artifact for a long time. I seem to have just gotten one as well. We don't know everything about them. They are powerful, yes, but we don't know the full story about everything they are doing.

And I won't try to second-guess the DM. Whether he is favoring one player or not, second-guessing his intent makes the game less fun, and accepting the situation makes it more fun.

[pi4t]

You don't know what happened, and cannot find out any way other than playing. If some god intervened in a way that will affect the party and open up new adventures eight levels from now, no amount of prying will convince the DM to give away his plot. Live with ignorance.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with asking the DM if there's an in-story reason for the resurrection. "Yes, but you don't know what it is yet" would probably reassure the OP that the DM does know what he's doing, without revealing any spoilers.

[The Insanity]

If not for the fact the girl is new to the game, I'd suspect it's some kind of shapeshifting spy. Maybe even a Monk.

[icefractal]

On the one hand, it might be favoritism. On the other hand, is this really different than her dying and then bringing in a new character with the same class and personality?

Because I have to say, if my character died without even making it one session, I'd quite possibly do just that. Sure, change the name, change the appearance slightly, but if I've got a good character idea and spent some time on it, why should I throw that away barely used?

Now the question is - does the DM extend that same kind of option to other players?

[Windrammer]

Nope. Next session we play shes back, no explanation on how. Her large axe is back. She was put in a jar. The jar is empty now. She didnt have any godly posessions/connections. She also didnt get any kind of penalties from being revived. She's just exactly the same as before and claims she doesnt remember anything. And now she's asking for her equipment back. And I'm like heeeell no. In my eyes she died fair and square. Am I obligated to give her the stuff back? I feel really like the DM just threw his DM magic all over this and nothing happened even tho we know she died. I haven't been in alot of other campaigns before so I dont know if this is that normal? I also feel really uncomfortable knowing that her character died and she's just back now, I mean, I cant even tell how my own character would act around her anymore. Should I be looking for a new campaign?

Was it unreasonable to bring her back without explanation? Sure, maybe a little.

But you were far more unreasonable in this exchange. You're metagaming. You should act as your character should, why would your character react to the return of a friend like that? That makes no sense. The DM has he right to throw around DM magic, but you don't have the right to break immersion and act in game with out of game motives.

It makes you uncomfortable that she's around? What you're trying to say is that you're irritated that she's around, and that's your choice. I will say that I am almost certain you're leaving out part of this story.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with asking the DM if there's an in-story reason for the resurrection. "Yes, but you don't know what it is yet" would probably reassure the OP that the DM does know what he's doing, without revealing any spoilers.

This.

Why? If he does not have a good in story reason for reviving the newbie out of nowhere, just drop it, she's getting some extra playtime out of her character. If you can get him to hint that there is something going on, than that's creepy ****. You should still be glad to have your party member back, but stay aware of hints of high level curses and illusions, doppelgangers, divine plans, evil twins etc. This might become awesome.

If you can't drop the subject and want to keep her stuff because you think it's unfair from an OOC perspective then yes, maybe you should find a new game. You're not enjoying this one anymore, and you're feeding that back to the other players. Not much good lies that way.

[The Insanity]

You're metagaming. You should act as your character should, why would your character react to the return of a friend like that? That makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense. In a world where demons, devils, evil spirits or evil shapeshifters exist, in a situation like this you can't be sure if that's really her or an enemy that's trying to trick you.

[Windrammer]

It makes perfect sense. In a world where demons, devils, evil spirits or evil shapeshifters exist, in a situation like this you can't be sure if that's really her or an enemy that's trying to trick you.
You can be a contrarian if you want but this bears no connection to the OP. They didn't reason that the character was a potential threat, they reacted coldly to them for out of game reasons. That's bad playing no matter how you spin it

[Jay R]

On the one hand, it might be favoritism. On the other hand, is this really different than her dying and then bringing in a new character with the same class and personality?

Yes, it really is different. The issue that the OP is pushing back on is giving her her magic items backs. If it's a new character, then the new one never owned those items.


And now she's asking for her equipment back. And I'm like heeeell no. In my eyes she died fair and square. Am I obligated to give her the stuff back?

[Anlashok]

Refusing to give someone back their equipment after they're resurrected is all kinds of sketchy and douchey. Even for a CE character.

[gartius]

Also the character died in her first session? As a GM I would happily drop a free res on her.

A character is an investment of time which 'onscreen' she has not had a chance to develop more. Someone coming in entirely new to a group needs to be hooked to want to come back. Having your character die straight away undoing any time you spent building said character is not going to want to encourage them to come back.

[The Insanity]

You can be a contrarian if you want but this bears no connection to the OP. They didn't reason that the character was a potential threat, they reacted coldly to them for out of game reasons. That's bad playing no matter how you spin it
You asked about the character's reasons. I don't know what do the player's reasons have anything to do with my comment.

[Mink]

Its been 2 sessions since the revival and its reeaaally awkward. I should clarify that our characters didnt really know each other, they had been hanging out for like a week so its not like "Hey old friend! Glad to have you back!" its more like "woah wtf ehm ok hi i guess?". So now we have this suspicious, dont know to trust or not character in our party. I see many of you are arguing that it isnt a problem BUT just because you're in the same party doesnt lead to you automatically trust each other. The whole "excitement" on whats actually is going on has faded since we havent gotten anymore clues or hints or anything regarding the revival. Its just been glossed over with "i dont know".

She also died in the second session but the DM just ignored it saying we should just skip it. I should also clarify that she isnt new to DnD, shes been playing for over a year. She's just been playing wizards all the time. At this point it isnt really fun anymore since we're actually going on a revival mission to revive the other dude who died. Will probably pull out of this campaign, it was fun til it bull****ted. :smallsmile:

[Crake]

I would recommend just asking the DM what's up, and make it clear that unless he flat out admits this is him showing favouritism, that you plan to treat it entirely in character as your character would, which would be, if you were to ask me, immediately and viscerally kill the clearly fake doppelganger trying to desecrate the memory of my fallen companion who i watched crumble to ash before my very eyes as we desperately tried to save her life.

There's only 2 ways to take this: The DM is playing a disgusting level of favouritism, or there's something deeper going on and should be dealt with in character. The trick is to find out which is the case.

[Quertus]

If not for the fact the girl is new to the game, I'd suspect it's some kind of shapeshifting spy. Maybe even a Monk.


It makes perfect sense. In a world where demons, devils, evil spirits or evil shapeshifters exist, in a situation like this you can't be sure if that's really her or an enemy that's trying to trick you.


We asked her character multiple questions of course on how they came back to life, who they are, and every question was just answered with "I dont remember" or "I dont know". We also tried casting stuff to remove curse, remove poison, turn undead, etc. but it didnt have any effect. We're currently lvl 7 which isnt really a level where true resurrection occurs by chance. I should explain we were in an abandoned mining dungeon when she died and it was just sand all over the ground (bunch of other people who had died) and not a trace of anyone else (we checked the whole place). :smallfrown:

The player told me after she died that she was planning on making a monk afterwards but apparently that didnt happen.

Let me see if I've got this straight: in a world with magic, ghosts, shape shifters, demons, and DMs, two PCs died. While one stayed dead pending a revival quest, the other mysteriously "reappeared". When asked, this character doesn't remember anything, including who they are, except that that's their stuff you're holding?

I'm sorry, that character would have been bound, gagged, subdued, poisoned, stat drained, cursed, and otherwise rendered incapacitated in every way available to my character, until we could get her back to town for a proper evaluation. And, if I had the appropriate knowledge skills, pieces would be removed (hair, blood, etc) to see if they transformed when separated from her person.

[Taffimai]

If I were your DM, there would be two possibilities:

a) I realised after the combat that I'd made a mistake, and that the barbarian should've been alive, so we're all hand-waving the "having been dead" part and moving on, or

b) there's an in-game reason for the character being back that the other players' characters don't know about, and it'll come up later. Something in her background story, an item she picked up earlier that's actually magical but as-yet unidentified, the undead has the ability to spawn thralls (or some such) when it kills someone,...

The fact that she's got her axe again makes me think it's probably a) though. BTW, this is something I would protest, because that smells too much of "the DM doesn't want your character to have it, so it melts until the other player can have it again", which is bad DM'ing. Continuity is my hobby-horse, and it's really not that hard to have her come across some other appropriate weapon. Same goes for the rest of her gear, really. If she can't remember what happened, then she can't remember that the stuff was hers, and doesn't know you have it. It's really easy for the DM to just have her find other things so you don't have to give up your loot. After all, if she'd made a new character it would've had new equipment too.

That said, if this is really more an ooc thing, where she (as a player) is unhappy that you're keeping "her" things, and wants them back more than getting shiny new stuff, you might consider just going along with it to not cause tension at the gaming table. I would think it childish of her, but when playing with other people you sometimes have to put up with their minor character flaws, and this gear can't be worth more than not having an enjoyable time playing. If similar things keep happening though, and you end up not enjoying the game anymore because of them, then you should consider moving on to another group that suits you better.

[Peat]

Mink, have you talked to the DM at all about this? If so, what did he say? What did he say when you refused to give the equipment back? I mean, you think he's being unreasonable, then he's the person you need to talk to, and without any hint of what the DM's thinking, I don't see how to say whether they're being unreasonable or not. From the sounds of it you've made up your mind anyway but I'm still kinda curious.

Also, does your group usually run on extreme paranoid of DM intentions/things that seem strange?