Bladesinger vs. Eldritch Knight

[Aldarin]

Pretty much what the title says. I'm asking what experience you have with both of these archetypes, and the pros and cons of each. I haven't played a fighter in 5E yet, and it seems like the Bladesinger is vastly superior, but I'm not sure. What do you lot think?

[Specter]

If you like being the most resistant party member, go EK. If you like teleporting and creating dimensions and being the smart guy, go Bladesinger.

It seems simplorious, but it's truly the core of everything. As an EK, I'm never down, unless everybody is. And I'm an elf! And the Bladesinger I play with is the guy that attacks mildly and stiĺl cast spells proudly. So, choose.

[Aldarin]

If you like being the most resistant party member, go EK. If you like teleporting and creating dimensions and being the smart guy, go Bladesinger.

It seems simplorious, but it's truly the core of everything. As an EK, I'm never down, unless everybody is. And I'm an elf! And the Bladesinger I play with is the guy that attacks mildly and stiĺl cast spells proudly. So, choose.

Thanks for the input! I'll consider that.

[Zman]

Pretty much what the title says. I'm asking what experience you have with both of these archetypes, and the pros and cons of each. I haven't played a fighter in 5E yet, and it seems like the Bladesinger is vastly superior, but I'm not sure. What do you lot think?

It boils down to Wizard who occasionally hits things or fighter who occasionally casts spells.

The BS will not compete against an EK in melee, it won't be close even fully buffed, but the BS is a Wizard with all that entails. The EK's Spellcasting is weak by comparison but it comes with multiple attacks and consistant damage.

Don't discount an EK/BS Multiclass for finding that middle ground. Even a couple levels of BS give the EK the Wizard Spell list and significantly more Spellcasting.

[Specter]

It boils down to Wizard who occasionally hits things or fighter who occasionally casts spells.

The BS will not compete against an EK in melee, it won't be close even fully buffed, but the BS is a Wizard with all that entails. The EK's Spellcasting is weak by comparison but it comes with multiple attacks and consistant damage.

Don't discount an EK/BS Multiclass for finding that middle ground. Even a couple levels of BS give the EK the Wizard Spell list and significantly more Spellcasting.

True story. Even taking two levels of Bladesinger as an EK gives you +3 AC (assuming an INT of 16, which could be higher even), better than a shield. And taking two levels of Fighter gives you Action Surge and a Fighting Style, whuch is frightful on so many levels.

[Klorox]

True story. Even taking two levels of Bladesinger as an EK gives you +3 AC (assuming an INT of 16, which could be higher even), better than a shield. And taking two levels of Fighter gives you Action Surge and a Fighting Style, whuch is frightful on so many levels.

Two levels of BS only helps an EK in light/no armor. It's not uncommon for an EK to be wearing plate and using a greatsword.

As Zman said:

Eldritch knight: fighter who casts some spells sometimes.

Bladesinger: wizard who swings a sword sometimes.

[Specter]

Two levels of BS only helps an EK in light/no armor. It's not uncommon for an EK to be wearing plate and using a greatsword.

As Zman said:

Eldritch knight: fighter who casts some spells sometimes.

Bladesinger: wizard who swings a sword sometimes.

For those of elven blood, as required for bladesingers, it is actually very uncommon to be the full plate guy.

[Longcat]

Let's compare them:
-HP: EK d10 vs BS d6. EK will have a lot more HP.
-AC: BS has 13+Dex+Int during Bladesong with Mage Armor. EK with full plate has AC 18, with a shield he has 20. If the combined magical enhancements of armor and shield equal +3, the EK has the same AC as the Bladesinger during Bladesong. With optimal gear, barring tomes, the BS can reach AC 27 (15+Dex+Int+2), assuming Robe of the Archmagi and Bracers of Defense. With +3 Full Plate and a +3 Shield, the EK reaches 26. Both have access to the Shield spell for a further +5 in an emergency.
-Weapons/Attacks: Under PB 27, the BS will most likely choose a Dex build, making the Rapier the highest damage weapon for them. Depending on how your DM reads Bladesong (ymmv) it works with TWF as well. The EK can go with either a Str or Dex build and choose between S&B, TWF, GWF and archery. Overall, the EK is much more versatile in their choice of weapons, which is unsurprising due to being a Fighter. The EK gains Extra Attack a level faster and more overall attacks.
-Spells: EK is a 1/3 caster, going up to 4th level spells. The BS is a wizard fullcaster. No contest here.
-Saves: EK has Str+Con, BS has Int+Wis. The BS does gain a bonus to concentration saves during Bladesong, bringing their save more or less up to par.
-Skills: Both have the same number of skills.

Basically, if you want to focus on the martial aspect or use twohanded/ranged weapons, the EK is the better choice. If you want to be a spellcaster with secondary melee abilities, the BS is solid.

[D.U.P.A.]

With Eldritch knight you have an option for Str build. For Bladesinger Dex build is pretty mandatory.

[the secret fire]

With Eldritch knight you have an option for Str build. For Bladesinger Dex build is pretty mandatory.

Yes, this, which is one reason among many why the best multiclass for the Bladesinger is Rogue, not Fighter. Two levels of Rogue is really all you need. Cunning Action on a BS is simply spectacular.

[MaxWilson]

Pretty much what the title says. I'm asking what experience you have with both of these archetypes, and the pros and cons of each. I haven't played a fighter in 5E yet, and it seems like the Bladesinger is vastly superior, but I'm not sure. What do you lot think?

If you think the Bladesinger is vastly superior, then you must be someone who likes wizard spells more than doing lots of damage with weapons. You probably also think light armor and sneaking is cooler than heavy plate armor (though EKs can do the light armor thing quite well too). You probably also don't have a problem with needing to "power up" your defenses (activate Bladesong) before your resilience comes online, and you're probably not too concerned with the thought of ambushes and running out of defense--maybe your DM holds to a predictable cadence and usually gives you a minute or so of warning before the encounter "starts".

Bladesingers and Eldritch Knights are quite distinct, despite their superficial similarities. One's a fighter with some magic; one's a wizard with some melee skirmisher capability. Play the one which is cooler to you and fits your style--since that appears to be the Bladesinger, go with your gut and play a Bladesinger.

As for me, if I want to play a melee wizard, it will be a Life Cleric 1/Enchanter X or Fighter 1/Necromancer X, not a Bladesinger (unless it's a Rogue 2/Bladesinger X). But that's a different discussion.

[Aldarin]

With Eldritch knight you have an option for Str build. For Bladesinger Dex build is pretty mandatory.

I prefer DEX builds for martial characters anyway. They tend to outclass STR builds.

[Cybren]

If you think the Bladesinger is vastly superior, then you must be someone who likes wizard spells more than doing lots of damage with weapons. You probably also think light armor and sneaking is cooler than heavy plate armor (though EKs can do the light armor thing quite well too). You probably also don't have a problem with needing to "power up" your defenses (activate Bladesong) before your resilience comes online, and you're probably not too concerned with the thought of ambushes and running out of defense--maybe your DM holds to a predictable cadence and usually gives you a minute or so of warning before the encounter "starts".

Bladesingers and Eldritch Knights are quite distinct, despite their superficial similarities. One's a fighter with some magic; one's a wizard with some melee skirmisher capability. Play the one which is cooler to you and fits your style--since that appears to be the Bladesinger, go with your gut and play a Bladesinger.

this is solid advice. If you want to play a bladesinger, you shouldn't feel obligated to ask permission to make sure you're selecting the most 'powerful' option, as they aren't really doing the same thing.


As for me, if I want to play a melee wizard, it will be a Life Cleric 1/Enchanter X or Fighter 1/Necromancer X, not a Bladesinger (unless it's a Rogue 2/Bladesinger X). But that's a different discussion.
I'm partial to trying an EK/abjurer split but i'm not sure what the level breakdown would be to make Arcane Ward most worth it, and I'd feel bad for not getting access to Eldricht Strike or Improved War Magic. Maybe if I ever wind up in a gestalt game...

[Gastronomie]

Don't forget that Eldritch Knights can use ranged weapons.

Well, wizards can use ranged cantrips, but weapons generally do better damage.

[Specter]

this is solid advice. If you want to play a bladesinger, you shouldn't feel obligated to ask permission to make sure you're selecting the most 'powerful' option, as they aren't really doing the same thing.

I'm partial to trying an EK/abjurer split but i'm not sure what the level breakdown would be to make Arcane Ward most worth it, and I'd feel bad for not getting access to Eldricht Strike or Improved War Magic. Maybe if I ever wind up in a gestalt game...

Strange as it seems, Wizard is a better option for multiclassing after 10/11 levels of EK. You get to boost your spell slots a lot faster, and the Arcane Ward makes your death even further a possibility. Even little stuff like Tasha's goes full retard with Eldritch Strike. With Bladesinging, you make yourself harder to hit than with a shield, without needing War Caster.


Don't forget that Eldritch Knights can use ranged weapons.

Well, wizards can use ranged cantrips, but weapons generally do better damage.

Attacking 2 or 3 times is usually better than cantripping, but in some occasions you want to use a cantrip's secondary benefit to your aid.

[JumboWheat01]

Let's compare them:
-HP: EK d10 vs BS d6. EK will have a lot more HP.
-AC: BS has 13+Dex+Int during Bladesong with Mage Armor. EK with full plate has AC 18, with a shield he has 20. If the combined magical enhancements of armor and shield equal +3, the EK has the same AC as the Bladesinger during Bladesong. With optimal gear, barring tomes, the BS can reach AC 27 (15+Dex+Int+2), assuming Robe of the Archmagi and Bracers of Defense. With +3 Full Plate and a +3 Shield, the EK reaches 26. Both have access to the Shield spell for a further +5 in an emergency.
-Weapons/Attacks: Under PB 27, the BS will most likely choose a Dex build, making the Rapier the highest damage weapon for them. Depending on how your DM reads Bladesong (ymmv) it works with TWF as well. The EK can go with either a Str or Dex build and choose between S&B, TWF, GWF and archery. Overall, the EK is much more versatile in their choice of weapons, which is unsurprising due to being a Fighter. The EK gains Extra Attack a level faster and more overall attacks.
-Spells: EK is a 1/3 caster, going up to 4th level spells. The BS is a wizard fullcaster. No contest here.
-Saves: EK has Str+Con, BS has Int+Wis. The BS does gain a bonus to concentration saves during Bladesong, bringing their save more or less up to par.
-Skills: Both have the same number of skills.

Basically, if you want to focus on the martial aspect or use twohanded/ranged weapons, the EK is the better choice. If you want to be a spellcaster with secondary melee abilities, the BS is solid.

Let's not forget, if going by the written rules, that Bladesinging is limited to those of Elvlish blood while Eldritch Knight can be played by ANYONE. This does open up a lot more customization options for the Eldritch Knight that you couldn't find on the Bladesinger.

(Yes, yes, put those torches away. I'm aware the DM can change the rules all they want.)

[MrFahrenheit]

Pretty much what the title says. I'm asking what experience you have with both of these archetypes, and the pros and cons of each. I haven't played a fighter in 5E yet, and it seems like the Bladesinger is vastly superior, but I'm not sure. What do you lot think?

Remember that in 5e, if you're single classed, then the subclass you choose should still be played as dependent upon the overall class it comes from. If you think the BS is superior, that means you'd rather play a wizard than a fighter.

[Mr Adventurer]

I've played an EK at low levels. I was an awesome fighter with a couple of magic tricks. Their scarcity was a little frustrating though.

For multi classing Eldritch Knight Fighter with Blade Singer Wizard, what level split works best at around 6th level? 10th level? 20th?

[Jarlhen]

It boils down to Wizard who occasionally hits things or fighter who occasionally casts spells.

This is the correct answer. Which one do you want to be? A wizard that occasionally hits things or a fighter who occasionally casts spells? It's one of the few D&D things I feel can be so elegantly summarized.

[Sir_Leorik]

I have a player with a Bladesinger PC in my campaign. (He's a Fighter1/Bladesinger7.) While in Bladesong, the character is very hard to hit, especially when he spams Shield. However he basically has the hit points of a wizard, doesn't hit very often in melee, and when he does he's restricted to rapier damage (1d8+3 I think). He's much more effective when he casts spells, such as Flaming Sphere, Haste on the party's Fighter, Fireball, etc. Basically Bladesong gives him a very high AC, but the Wizard class isn't meant to be in melee for long periods of time.

An Eldritch Knight has the hit points of a Fighter, access to Heavy Armor, access to the Shield spell, Action Surge, and doesn't need to be an Elf or Half-Elf to take the Eldritch Knight martial archetype by RAW.

[hymer]

Don't forget that Eldritch Knights can use ranged weapons.

Well, wizards can use ranged cantrips, but weapons generally do better damage.

Though, as BS you're likely to be an elf, and you'll be able to use a longbow with proficiency and good dex. Not as well as an EK focused on archery, but better than your cantrips for all or most of your career, depending on specifics of build and item availability.

[djreynolds]

I've played an EK at low levels. I was an awesome fighter with a couple of magic tricks. Their scarcity was a little frustrating though.

For multi classing Eldritch Knight Fighter with Blade Singer Wizard, what level split works best at around 6th level? 10th level? 20th?

There are 2 class features the EK 7th level ability to cast a cantrip and attack, and the bladesinger's 14 level ability. You can't have both.

Also the extra attacks are an issue and the EK's 1/3 caster level. You could try 3EK, 3AT, and 14 bladesinger and just dip the fighter and rogue as you progress in level. This way you get some nice abilities each time you snag a level of fighter or rogue. I might begin with rogue if only for the extra skills, or fighter for con saves.

For the EK, I prefer either abjuration wizard for the arcane ward, or evocation for sculpt spell, this way you can drop a fireball right in melee and not kill you and the paladin in the process.

[DivisibleByZero]

You could try 3EK, 3AT, and 14 bladesinger and just dip the fighter and rogue as you progress in level.

Actually, I like EK 7 / BS 2 / AT 11
But at that point it isn't really an EK or a BS any longer.

EK 12 / AT 3 / BS 5 is also a pretty nice split.