Mage-Fu: Building a Dragon Sorc/4E Monk

[ES Curse]

Greeting playground! I've been thinking about the Monk a lot lately, and wanted to share a build I'm thinking about. Since Metamagic can be applied any time you cast a spell, regardless of the origin class, I considered using Sorc levels to make the 4E monk more "magical". This is an interesting combo, and let me use an example character for this:

Half-Elf 4E Monk 5/Dragon Sorc 3
8,16,12,8,15,16 (+2 CHA, +1 DEX and WIS from race, +2 WIS from ASI)
Start Dragon Sorc for 4 cantrips (At least 1 range cantrip ala Firebolt/Ray of Frost and one of Booming Blade/Shocking Grasp), 2 spells (doesn't really matter long-term), CON save proficiency, and Draconic Resilience.

Now take 5 Monk levels, picking the Burning Hands discipline when you go 4E. From there (level 6 now), take another 2 Sorc levels so you get Metamagic.
Metamagic is the star of this build because it allows you to do all kinds of fun things with your 4E spells!
-Stunning Strike, then use a quickened Burning Hands for unavoidable damage!
-Your monk spells ignore material components, so a subtle monk spell requires no components!
-Use empowered/extended/heightened spells to make the most of your spent ki!

Now take Monk 6 to swap out the joke cantrip and have 2 more disciplines. I recommend Thunderwave and Shatter because they work best with Metamagic, but you could ignore one of those for a non-spell discipline if you like. From here, take another Sorcerer level for an ASI and get another cantrip.

At 10th level, you have a Monk with cantrips, Metamagic that can be applied on short-rest recovered ki spells, d6 martial arts die, and even some Sorcerer spells to play around with. Combining Jump and Step of Wind should give a x6 jump distance modifier, which I'm sure someone could make use of.

Weakness seems to be the very heavy MAD of this build. Half-Elf is pretty much your best choice because you can get all 4 points in useful stats, though standard human might be good for trading the extra CHA for +1 CON. If any of you know a good way to clean/optimize this, I'd love to hear it.

[MrStabby]

I tried working through something similar but couldn't make it work. The lack of spells level stacking from monk and sorcery was what ruined it. With a paladin sorc for example you can get higher level spells slots.

Furthermore the monk automatically gets bonus action abilities as a class feature, which get wasted by quicken.

Next, some of the interesting g spells are not described as casting the spell as normal - preventing metamagic.

Finally too many stats need to be good.


I do hope you find a way to make it work though as it would be fun.

[Temperjoke]

I know you were hoping to use Metamagic with your monk, but if you want a better spellcasting monk, it might be a better fit to mix Monk and Druid. You'll have more synergy in your stats that way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Drop your Cha to 13 and pick Sorcerer spells without saves-- as-is the extra points aren't doing you much good. I also might put the Sorcerer levels off until 12th or so-- you want to get to 11th level Monk ASAP so you can get Fireball, Fly, and Stoneskin, I would think.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Despite the bummer of the ki drainage of the 4E monk spells, if you approach the class as a blaster first and foremost, and augment it with sorc blasting and metamagic, it actually becomes viable.

Elemental Monk 12/Draconic Sorcerer 8.
A 12th level monk with the fireball ki spell (4 ki) could conceivably cast fireball NINE TIMES A DAY (this is assuming 2 short rests a day) without ever burning a sorcerer spell slot. That’s pretty dang blasty.

Doing Variant Human or Half-Elf ends up at level 20 with the exact same stats and one feat but going Half-Elf also gets us the racial traits plus one more skill proficiency. So, go Half-Elf.

Str 8 Dex 16 (18*) Con 10 Int 8 Wis 16 (18) Cha 16 (18*) plus feat (Mobile)
* either one of these could end on 20, your choice.

Obviously Con is LOW, so concentration spells are to be avoided, this is a blasty monk, and he uses mobile to get in and do Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade and get out. Obviously you go Red/Gold dragon to add on Cha bonus to fire damage (although that will be a very late addition at Sorc 6). Meta-magic possibilities: can quicken Green-Flame blade, which is gnarly, can twin booming blade or the monk’s hold person, can empower monk’s fireball. Of course, you can only get two of these metamagics so choose wisely.

One might be tempted to get Elemental Adapt to make sure fire spells get through fire resistant enemies but the truth is the vast majority of these are just fiends or fire elementals. If you aren’t fighting those the majority of the time, you will be just fine without Elemental Adapt.

With 8 levels of sorcerer, these might be good spells to pick:
5 Cantrips: Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Green-Flame Blade, Minor Illusion, Ray of Frost
9 Spells (4/3/3/2): some options: Chromatic Orb, Shield, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Counterspell, Haste (conc), Hypnotic Pattern (conc), Banishment (conc.), Greater Insivibility (conc.), Polymorph (conc.), Vitriolic Sphere

For monk, take Burning Hands, Hold Person (conc), and Fireball.

So, if we were to take our first level in Sorc, we’d get Con prof. (but no Dex con) and have +4 or +5 Dex save and +6 Con save at level 20. If we start with monk, we’d have +10 or +11 Dex save and +0 Con save. Better to start with Sorc for Con saves, methinks. Go 1st level Sorc, getting important cantrips like Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade, then go monk for levels 2-13, making sure to take mobile feat at level 4, then finish the rest with sorcerer.

[R.Shackleford]

Vuman Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15

1st level take Tavern Brawler, eventually picking up defense style from paladin. Go vengeance and use Oath of Enmity as your flurry of blows.

Refluff your heavy armor as unarmored (price is for your special diet ). Or give up armor and shields for unarmored defense (dueling style would be a good weapon style choice).

You could also go Dex and ask for your DM to make unarmed strikes finesse since they really should be.

Boom, Mystical Monk of face punching

[Grod_The_Giant]

Vuman Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15

Refluff your heavy armor as unarmored (price is for your special diet ). Or give up armor and shields for unarmored defense (dueling style would be a good weapon style choice).

You could also go Dex and ask for your DM to make unarmed strikes finesse since they really should be.

Boom, Mystical Monk of face punching
That's... a hell of an alteration. You don't really need Unarmored Defense if you're taking Dragon Sorcerer levels, though-- 13+Dex should be fine. Do a one-level dip Monk dip for fist damage and finesse and you don't need permission there, either.

[ES Curse]

The goal of the build was to use Metamagic to make the disciplines worth the ki spent and give a monk some cantrips. Reading over my options, you can fulfill the cantrip aspect with WIS by a few different dips:
-Druid 1: Produce Flame, Poison Spray
-Nature Cleric 1: Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy, [other cleric cantrip], Produce Flame
-Arcana Cleric 1: Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy, [other cleric cantrip], Firebolt, Ray of Frost

Not a fan of Sacred Flame and Poison Spray (not part of the "4 Elements"), but there aren't many options until you get to the Arcana cleric. Getting 2 Wizard cantrips allows for actual fire/ice/wind/earth stuff to happen, which is cool.

But doesn't Metamagic work very well with the 4E monk? Especially once you have Stunning Strike, you can use DEX save spells for guaranteed damage.

[MrStabby]

But doesn't Metamagic work very well with the 4E monk? Especially once you have Stunning Strike, you can use DEX save spells for guaranteed damage.


You can, but it is still less good for you than just more levels in one or other of the classes.

Even at level 20 when sacred flame is doing 4d8 damage a time with no chance of failure, you compare it to other uses of a bonus action like another strike (or two with flurry) that add Dex modifier to damage - these are very likely to hit as well, given advantage.

[ES Curse]

Not RAW, but would the stored flame from "Produce Flame" have any effect on unarmed attacks? The text says said flame does not harm you or your equipment, but logically would harm the opponent if you made an unarmed strike with a flaming hand. Thoughts?

[MrStabby]

I wouldn't rule that.

Create bonfire might work - stun, quicken bonfire and next turn they take damage as well. It still seems a little convoluted .