Subtle tweaks on Favored Soul sorcerous origin. PEACH

[Arkhios]

I reckon something like this has already been done, several times, but I haven't scoured through the forums to find whether these suggestions have been said or not.

So, the biggest issues I've gathered people have with the Favored Soul as is:

Extra 2 known spells per first 5 spell levels.
Extra Attack (with SCAG cantrip shenanigans*)

*in brackets because not everyone will use SCAG for whatever reasons, in which case this becomes a moot point.

My suggestions for a subtle fix:

Instead of simply gaining extra known spells from your chosen domain, the domain spells are added to your sorcerer spell list, from which you still have to choose your spells as normal. (Exactly like warlocks gain access to their Patron spells)
You gain Bonus Attack as a divinely inspired Metamagic option ("Inspired Attack") which costs 1 Sorcery Point and allows you to use a Bonus Action to make additional attack on your turn whenever you make a weapon attack on your turn. (Basically allowing two attacks on your turn, similar to the War Priest ability).


Edit: As was said, Extra Attack isn't that bad for the Favored Soul to have, and my suggestion didn't fix anything. On the contrary, it would make Edam become Camembert :P

so, go ahead and PEACH :)

[Kryx]

Instead of simply gaining extra known spells from your chosen domain, the domain spells are added to your sorcerer spell list, from which you still have to choose your spells as normal. (Exactly like warlocks gain access to their Patron spells))
Adding to the list isn't sufficient.



The Arcane Trickster (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Bard knows 16 +6 from any class plus an additional 2 from any class if college of lore is taken for a total of 22-24 with 6-8 from any class..
The Cleric can prepare 25+10 of his spells.
The Druid can prepare 25+8 of his spells.
The Eldritch Knight (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20 and has 10 oath spells for a total of 23-25 prepared spells at 20.
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem). He can prepare 25+2.


15 is pathetic. Give them the cleric domain at 1,3,5,7,9 imo. 15 + 10 from a set list is still less than every other 9th level spellcaster.

[Arkhios]

Adding to the list isn't sufficient.

15 is pathetic. Give them the cleric domain at 1,3,5,7,9 imo. 15 + 10 from a set list is still less than every other 9th level spellcaster.

Honestly, you have to take Font of Magic into account. That's a huge benefit only the sorcerers have.
How about a middle-ground, where you get to choose one of the two domain spells each level? That's a total of 20 spells, and besides, there's no reason to make each classes' spell lists "balanced" because each classes are supposed to be different. Sorcerers have tricks up their sleeves that others don't.

[Kryx]

Sorcerer Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494131-Sorcerer-Fix)

Feel free to read the discussion there. The solutions offered are middle ground. They create a class that is still likely weaker than a Wizard overall, but it is a bit different so it's hard to determine that.

[MrStabby]

This looks pretty reasonable as a fix to me. Maybe slightly underpowered but not by much.

The issues I found with the FS were that it eliminated much of the penalty of rapid resource use, little trade off for using sorcery points and spell slots when 2 attacks were there as a backup.

The additional spells are a big boost but don't feel wrong and are an integral part of the character. Maybe allow selection of one domain spell per spell level?

There is also the multiclassing problem to consider, allowing cleric spells based on cha not wis means powerful combinations like spirit guardians on a 2 attack chassis at level 6, and no problem with adding paladin to the build to boost damage.

I would suggest moving casting stat to wis as part of the archetype to help keep some of the cheese in check. Should be ok to do as you chose archetype at first level.

[Cybren]

Adding to the list isn't sufficient.



15 is pathetic. Give them the cleric domain at 1,3,5,7,9 imo. 15 + 10 from a set list is still less than every other 9th level spellcaster.

Indeed, the reason they removed bonus spells from the storm sorcerer wasn't that it made it to good in and of itself, it was that if made draconic and wild sorcerers bad. I imagine in 5.5/6e the sorcerer will have more spells known, likely tied to their subclass

[famousringo]

Honestly, you have to take Font of Magic into account. That's a huge benefit only the sorcerers have.


Font of Magic is functionally the same as the recovery that wizards and land druids get, only wizards and druids don't need to spend their recovery slots to power their class features.

Edit: That being said, I would get down on my knees for any additional spells known I could get for my sorcerer. Sick of falling back to Firebolt spam for lack of a suitable spell. If my DM had offered me your compromise, I would take it in a heartbeat.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Just because people have issues, doesn't mean they're right!

(FWIW, I have issues too. Deep issues. OTOH, I'm right. :) )

I think FS gets Sorcerer balance right, or at least better than the core sub-classes. The extra known spells are necessary and flavorful. Armor proficiency makes sense for a less scholarly magic-user than a wizard. A second attack at level 6? Not likely to be used, since cantrips tend to be better, but it fits a character who has time to dabble because he doesn't have to study magic or try to deal with something beyond human comprehension or even learn guitar.

I like the *idea* of the Wild Sorcerer but hate the mechanics. Just me.

The Dragon Sorcerer is ok.

I also like the efficiency of it: Whenever we get an official Cleric domain, we also get a new kind of sorcerer.

Anyway,

Ken

[Arkhios]

Indeed, the reason they removed bonus spells from the storm sorcerer wasn't that it made it to good in and of itself, it was that if made draconic and wild sorcerers bad. I imagine in 5.5/6e the sorcerer will have more spells known, likely tied to their subclass

God dammit, people, stop sowing that curse all over. 5th edition works just fine, it's you people who have problems with it and your accustomed powerplay backgrounds clashing... ;)

One big (additional) problem I can see in Favored Soul, is that it's only an unofficial Unearthed Arcana suggestion for a homebrew Sorcerous Origin, AND it sheds a long shadow over the official ones, by being far superior compared to all of them. There's "something" in there that just doesn't quite add up, balance-wise (and only compared to other Sorcerers).

What I'm interested in doing is NOT trying to fix Sorcerer as a class in general (in my honest opinion, Sorcerer is great as it is). Instead I wish to fix the Favored Soul Origin to be EQUAL with official Sorcerous Origins. Between official origins, those extra spells known have massive weight in the scale, and that breaks the in-class balance.

I have zero reasons to question why WotC decided to make the Sorcerer as it is. From what I've seen in play, sorcerer works fine.
Besides, Sorcerer's flavor (now and before 5th edition) is that they get their magic inherently, they don't need to study to gain more spells, thus they have less spells known while they still can cast as much spells per day as others, in relatively equal manner. Their magic comes from within themselves, not from a book and some "words of power".

[Kryx]

If you don't want to fix the sorcerer then just remove bonus spells known from favored soul. Done.

[famousringo]

Okay, comparing to other sorcerer subclasses, your level 1 ability changes seem fine. Favoured Souls just end up with a larger list of awesome spells they aren't able to know, more armor, and less HP than a dragon sorc.

But your 6th level change takes an ability that's only really useful for paladorcs and makes it... Actually better for paladorcs. Now instead of going 2/X they can go 5/6 and enjoy a third smite per round.

No idea what the beef with SCAG cantrips is. Simple weapon proficiency doesn't move the needle, any sorcerer can twin BB, and dragon sorcerers can enjoy a bonus on GFB. No idea what FS is supposedly breaking here.

And the level 18 ability makes almost no sense if the domain spells go away, but all the sorcerer 18 abilities suck so that seems balanced.

[Arkhios]

If you don't want to fix the sorcerer then just remove bonus spells known from favored soul. Done.

Which is what I suggested in the first place. What I suggested in addition was to keep the domains still relevant by expanding the favored souls list of spells by the ones from the chosen domain, still subject to individual selection (exactly like warlocks do with their patrons).

[Arkhios]

Favoured Souls just end up with a larger list of awesome spells they aren't able to know
If you're familiar with the 3.5 Favored Soul, such was the case with them too. Having access to all cleric spells, but only able to pick just a few of them. I find it's now more balanced with this tweak. At least you can still pick them, while you don't get them as a bonus above all other spells known.


more armor and less HP than a dragon sorc.
Which is reasonable trade. Less need for upgrading Dexterity, more potential to advance in different directions, and slightly better Armor Class is worth slightly less HP.


But your 6th level change takes an ability that's only really useful for paladorcs and makes it... Actually better for paladorcs. Now instead of going 2/X they can go 5/6 and enjoy a third smite per round.
Duly noted. Scrapped that part from the OP. Extra Attack is fine as it is.


No idea what the beef with SCAG cantrips is. Simple weapon proficiency doesn't move the needle, any sorcerer can twin BB, and dragon sorcerers can enjoy a bonus on GFB. No idea what FS is supposedly breaking here.
I believe the beef is that a Favored Soul (due to being also a Sorcerer) have a huge resource pool to spill for Quickened SCAG cantrips in addition to Extra Attacks. No other single class can do that. My suggestion was an attempt to restrict the usefulness of combining Attack action with Quickened Metamagic (which quite likely every Favored Soul will be taking), though it might be better if it could be used as (CHA mod)/long rest instead of being another Sorcery Point Sinkhole.


And the level 18 ability makes almost no sense if the domain spells go away, but all the sorcerer 18 abilities suck so that seems balanced.
Favored Soul's flavor is to be a divinely inspired class (which, btw, fits well for the Sorcerer chassis), who most likely will want to take at least a few of their domain spells, if not all of them.

I suppose that the Favored Soul's spells could be re-flavored as being divine instead or arcane, and replace their spellcasting foci with Holy Symbols, like with Clerics. It would be pretty close to a ribbon feature. A Light Domain cleric could cast Fireballs with a Holy Symbol anyway, so I don't see how this would break anything for Favored Souls.

[famousringo]

I believe the beef is that a Favored Soul (due to being also a Sorcerer) have a huge resource pool to spill for Quickened SCAG cantrips in addition to Extra Attacks. No other single class can do that. My suggestion was an attempt to restrict the usefulness of combining Attack action with Quickened Metamagic (which quite likely every Favored Soul will be taking), though it might be better if it could be used as (CHA mod)/long rest instead of being another Sorcery Point Sinkhole.


Yeah, I don't see a problem. Any sorcerer can spend a single sorcery point to twin Booming Blade with their action and get the Quickened spell cast, the two attacks, plus some extra d8s. Maybe the Favoured Soul can get a little more single target damage or a little extra efficiency from 6-10 with the Extra Attack, but they should get something for their level 6 ability. It's supposed to be a big power bump, and the fact it gets immediately eclipsed by metamagic cantrip spamming, and falls further behind as cantrips scale up, leaves it the weakest of all level 6 sorcerer abilities, IMO.

Edit: Oh, and divine foci would actually be a pretty nice deal for a class with spellcasting and shield proficiency.

[R.Shackleford]

Really all you need is the Dragon sorcerer to fix the any sorcerer and let them pick which spell list they cast from.

First Level: Choose your spell list from cleric, Druid, or wizard.

Name the Subclass

Subclass: Gives some sort of AC . Unarmed defense, mage armor, medium armor, or whatever. Personally I like the Strength mod + 13.

At 6th level choose an element. You deal extra damage with that element because of *reason*

Most games don't go past 8th level so I wouldn't worry too much about anything past 10.

Sorcery Points: Subtle, Careful, and Empower are at-will.

Quicken: 1 point, Twin 2 points, and Heighten 3 points. You get Cha mod SP per short or long rest.

With how flexible your casting is you don't even need an expanded spell list. You will have tons of options with cantrips and spells.

[Arkhios]

Really not the most subtle fix plus an arrogant notion of "most campaigns don't go beyond yadda yadda, don't bother with it".

In case you hadn't noticed, this thread was about subtle fixes to the Favored Soul origin. Your idea is a complete overhaul of all sorcerous origins, and not very imaginative at that (and definitely not subtle). What point would there be if all origins were practically copies of each other? I understand it might work for you and I respect that, but it's a bit irrelevant with what I was trying to achieve here.

D&D is a class based game which goes through levels 1 to 20. Of course we have to take every level into consideration. Not just campaigns of supposed maximum of 8 levels, and nevermind the point beyond that.

[R.Shackleford]

In case you hadn't noticed, this thread was about subtle fixes to the Favored Soul origin. Your idea is a complete overhaul of all sorcerous origins, and not very imaginative at that (and definitely not subtle). What point would there be if all origins were practically copies of each other?

And in case you hadn't realized it yet, D&D is class based game which goes through levels 1 to 20. Of course we have to take every level into consideration. Not just campaigns of supposed maximum of 8 levels, and nevermind the point beyond that.

First off, way to be super rude and falsify a quote.

Secondly, please note that I stated that games rarely go past 8th level. Why would I care about higher levels if you never get there? I suggest everyone play high levels, but hat doesn't mean they will or have. Though dragon wings becoming angel wings makes for a good favored soul change.

These changes are actually quite subtle,for the most part, at the table in actual gameplay. People won't be able to tell this sorcerer from a normal sorcerer until they really pat attention to it.


Spell list of the Druids or Clerics? 3.5 Favored Soul all the way.


13 + Str for AC really is no different from 13 + Dexterity, though it ties to a "worse" ability score if changed to strength.

Medium armor will make people think you are a favored soul. Really 13 + Dexterity is essentially medium armor. Not much of a change at all.


6th level... Being able to pick radiant instead of the classical sorcerer elements doesn't change muchis from the dragon sorcerer.

Sorcerer Points is what I think every Sorcerer needs a change to. It may not be subtle on paper but in actual gameplay people will still see you as a sorcerer (or type of sorcerer) using metamagic.

Just because there are a lot of words doesn't mean the end product isn'the subtle.

[Arkhios]

First off, way to be super rude and falsify a quote.

Secondly, please note that I stated that games rarely go past 8th level. Why would I care about higher levels if you never get there? I suggest everyone play high levels, but hat doesn't mean they will or have. Though dragon wings becoming angel wings makes for a good favored soul change.

These changes are actually quite subtle,for the most part, at the table in actual gameplay. People won't be able to tell this sorcerer from a normal sorcerer until they really pat attention to it.


Spell list of the Druids or Clerics? 3.5 Favored Soul all the way.


13 + Str for AC really is no different from 13 + Dexterity, though it ties to a "worse" ability score if changed to strength.

Medium armor will make people think you are a favored soul. Really 13 + Dexterity is essentially medium armor. Not much of a change at all.


6th level... Being able to pick radiant instead of the classical sorcerer elements doesn't change muchis from the dragon sorcerer.

Sorcerer Points is what I think every Sorcerer needs a change to. It may not be subtle on paper but in actual gameplay people will still see you as a sorcerer (or type of sorcerer) using metamagic.

Just because there are a lot of words doesn't mean the end product isn'the subtle.

I admit it was a bit rude, but to my defense I just woke up and to be entirely honest I found your suggestion on the rude side as well. Completely disregarding my attempt to fix it and instead presenting your complete idea, which, as you keep repeating "isn't that far from draconic sorcerer". See, that's the problem. It's too similar!

Edit: and again, I'm not even remotely interested in fixing how the sorcerer class works. This was supposed to be quick and subtle fix for just one sub-class, which isn't even in official form yet.