LA +0 Vampires with substantial weaknesses?

[Ignimortis]

So I'm trying to start a 3.5 game for new players, and a friend of mine asked to play a vampire. I'm OK with that, since it's a custom setting (low-magic, standard quasi-medieval fantasy) and I can add w/e I want, but I'm at a loss exactly how to make a vampire race not OP. He specifically asked for vampires to have weaknesses, since he's a WoD fan and also quite dislikes having characters without weak points.

So far I've figured out that sunlight instakill will have to go for sure, because it'll make this unplayable in most conditions. Garlic is just silly, and running water severely limits travel at low levels.

Any advice on how to make low-powered, blood-dependent pale people work with 0 LA? Preferably not making them undead, since that seems to account for a huge part of their power.

[Larrx]

So I'm trying to start a 3.5 game for new players, and a friend of mine asked to play a vampire. I'm OK with that, since it's a custom setting (low-magic, standard quasi-medieval fantasy) and I can add w/e I want, but I'm at a loss exactly how to make a vampire race not OP. He specifically asked for vampires to have weaknesses, since he's a WoD fan and also quite dislikes having characters without weak points.

So far I've figured out that sunlight instakill will have to go for sure, because it'll make this unplayable in most conditions. Garlic is just silly, and running water severely limits travel at low levels.

Any advice on how to make low-powered, blood-dependent pale people work with 0 LA? Preferably not making them undead, since that seems to account for a huge part of their power.

3.5 hugely over valued unkillability. If a (PC) vampire is forced back to his/her coffin, then the adventure is lost just as hard as if they had died. So . . . vampires have way too much LA just in general. You know how bad vampire 'weaknesses' suck, so discard those. Maybe some light sensitivity for verisimilitude.

I would apply 1 LA for the typical WoD advantages (spawn, ghouls, blood bond, etc.). The other stuff, increasing stats (with blood), summoning bats, etc . . . I would just let a player have for free.

Of course shave off all the permanent stat bonuses vamps get in 3.5.

[eggynack]

If the problem with LA is the high starting level, rather than the cost itself, you might want to go with the vampire savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Alternatively, you could go with the necropolitan template from libris mortis, which is an undead with +0 LA, albeit one with an XP cost associated. Maybe toss that on lesser drow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2) or something to capture the problem with light without the death thing. Then you can copy the abilities you want through class. Like, druid or wild shape ranger for form swapping, or wizard or beguiler for mind control, with the former also having a bit of that form swapping. It all really depends on what you want out of a vampire.

[Necroticplague]

So I'm trying to start a 3.5 game for new players, and a friend of mine asked to play a vampire. I'm OK with that, since it's a custom setting (low-magic, standard quasi-medieval fantasy) and I can add w/e I want, but I'm at a loss exactly how to make a vampire race not OP. He specifically asked for vampires to have weaknesses, since he's a WoD fan and also quite dislikes having characters without weak points. Well, the normal Vampire template, once you take it's monstrously high LA into account, is actually a rather weak template, so OP isn't a problem by default. Level 9 fighter>Vampire Fighter 1.


Any advice on how to make low-powered, blood-dependent pale people work with 0 LA? Preferably not making them undead, since that seems to account for a huge part of their power.

How about making some kind of 'living dead' subtype, that is to undead what 'living construct' is to constructs, then making a race that's kinda like Warforged, then swapping out some of the construct abilities for vampiric ones (armor plating->blood drain).

[Zanos]

So I'm trying to start a 3.5 game for new players, and a friend of mine asked to play a vampire. I'm OK with that, since it's a custom setting (low-magic, standard quasi-medieval fantasy) and I can add w/e I want, but I'm at a loss exactly how to make a vampire race not OP. He specifically asked for vampires to have weaknesses, since he's a WoD fan and also quite dislikes having characters without weak points.

So far I've figured out that sunlight instakill will have to go for sure, because it'll make this unplayable in most conditions. Garlic is just silly, and running water severely limits travel at low levels.

Any advice on how to make low-powered, blood-dependent pale people work with 0 LA? Preferably not making them undead, since that seems to account for a huge part of their power.
In WoD, vampires only real weaknesses are fire and sunlight. But it's worth noting that WoD vampires, while having several natural advantages, have to spend blood on basically everything, and most of their power comes from experience. A freshly sired WoD vampire is barely stronger than a human.

That said, a WoD vamp is probably more similar to a class than a race.

[Gildedragon]

Go necropolitan with:
A) fire weakness
B) light sensitivity
C) bite attack
D) cannot naturally heal HP; they heal by dealing damage with their bite attack
E) no ability score changes

Add a bonus or two: maybe bat form as wildshape (divine minion says that is around La +1)

[eggynack]

The vampire template is probably over-LA'd, but it's not by as bad of a margin as in some cases. That dominate ability on its own can be really really powerful, and you get a lot of really strong immunities and abilities on top of that. I dunno where I'd put it, because in some ways, yes, a fighter 9 is better than a fighter 1/vampire 8, but the vampire has individually powerful abilities that let it do things the fighter can't. Like, again, dominate creatures indiscriminately until everyone is under its thrall, before using said creatures to solidly approximate the value of that fighter 9. I guess my real point is, ditch that dominate ability and then you can plausibly drop like five LA from the thing. Maybe four, maybe six, I dunno. I mean, there're also all those weaknesses that the fighter lacks, though you plan to ditch those somewhat. This definitely isn't a super straightforward case like with lizardfolk or hobgoblins.

[Inevitability]

Option one: go with Half-Vampire, then let him buy off the LA later on.

Option two: let him gestalt the vampire progression class with a tier 4 or lower class.

[Gullintanni]

One idea might be to have Vampire's abilities rendered non-functional by sunlight in your campaign setting.

No fast healing, no damage reduction...such that in sunlight, the vampire is essentially just a human without the Feat and Skill points.

[ShurikVch]

Kingdoms of Kalamar have Sharjani, who are basically "living vampires": Blood Craving, Vulnerability to Sunlight...

There are 4 different "grades": Least, Lesser, Greater, and Lord

Lesser Sharjan is only LA: +1

[Arutema]

In that vein, there's also the LA 0 Pathfinder Dhampir (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/RacesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dhampir), the mortal offspring of vampires which are treated as undead by positive and negative energy. They also have a somewhat over-stretched feat chain to benefit from feeding on blood.

[Green and Red]

I would take the vampire template, and start with tossing out most of it. Its really completely overloaded with stuff.

Maybe go a bit further into "living" undead, like someone suggested comparable to living construct.

So, to start:
-Undead immunities, toss away most. They want to be alive-ish, they get that, fully. Maybe give them a con score, that starts dropping every day they dont feed or something.

-special abilities, also toss most. Gaseous Form, create spawn, dominate... or weaken them significantly. Like summoning wolves etc. only working where there would be wolves nearby, downgrading dominate to charm, or... lots of possibilities. Energy drain is also likely overpowered at lower levels. What exactly to do with create spawn is really up to where this is supposed to go as a campaign and what the player intends to do.

-stat boosts and other raw increases. either toss or cut down significantly.

-Fast healing, damage reduction... goodbye.

Givent that a bunch of these abilities are far less overpowered as levels go up, maybe let them get some back over time.


Now, weaknesses.
Sunlight instant death is probably way to far to be playable in most campaigns, but weakening with maybe hurting over prolonged exposure could still. Also consider how easy (or not) it would be to counteract, which depends on available magic items and such.

Invitation probably has to go completely.

Garlic and religion can probably stay, as long as its not overwhelming.

If the adventure travels around, anything about being bound to a coffin/grave may have to go, but so do any advantages that go with it. Alternatively having to cart a coffin or pile of gravedirt around with you is also a burden.

Maybe consider some of the less common vampire weaknesses, like obsessive counting of things, being burned by pure silver, or adverse reactions from animals.


Also, dont underestimate how much of a weakness "being a vampire" in itself means in most campaign worlds. Regardless of how evil (or not) the character ends up actually being, the reaction of most people will be run away screaming, getting out the metaphorical torches and pitchforks and such. Nevermind "official" responses from goverment and temples and such.
Even with something like that aside, extreme distrust and dislike will be the norm, if they are found out.

How much this matters depends on the campaign and how RP-heavy the playstyle is.

[DMVerdandi]

I would make it into a full racial class instead.
20 levels.

One cool thing you could do is make it a warlock variant.
Have all of the classic vampiric abilities work as invocations. Flight, summoning creatures of the night, turning into mist, Charming and controlling others,etc.
Secondly, instead of having eldritch blast, trade it in as a static bonus for a bite, and then instead of blast invocations, have bite invocations.
One for eating skill points, one for eating hp, one for eating feats, one for eating abilities, and one for eating spell knowledge.

Give it spell points to use for spells gained through the vampiric bite.


Slightly(but not slightly) inspired by the vampire class from bravely default.
It essentially plays like a blue mage (Gets abilities from monsters, etc.).

[Ignimortis]

Thanks for replies and suggestions, everyone!


How about making some kind of 'living dead' subtype, that is to undead what 'living construct' is to constructs, then making a race that's kinda like Warforged, then swapping out some of the construct abilities for vampiric ones (armor plating->blood drain).

I think I'm going to go with that. Here's what I managed to write up thus far (+2 total stat being a homerule/PF backport, all the other races are also redone for that):

Vampire:
Former humans or elves who were twisted by influences from the Negative Energy Plane, vampires are neither living, dead, or undead, being stuck somewhere in between. Their own life energy is constantly dwindling, forcing them to ingest blood to nourish themselves, and thus vampires are regarded as monsters, cunning and dangerous predators, which exist only to haunt mortal folk.
Racial Traits: +2 Charisma - vampires possess unearthly charm and are often more beautiful than they were in life.
Humanoid (augmented): unlike other humanoids, vampires are immune to poison, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and effects that cause the sickened condition.
Medium: as Medium creatures, vampires have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Base land speed 30ft.
Darkvision: Vampires can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and vampires can function just fine with no light at all.
Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful bite attack. If it hits, it drains blood, dealing 1d2 points of Constitution damage. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 1 temporary hit point per two HD the vampire possesses. A vampire must use this ability successfully at least once a day to sustain itself, otherwise it suffers a stacking -1 penalty to all rolls for every day without blood, until it reaches a total of -10 penalty, at which point it falls into an endless sleep, from which it can be revived only by being given blood (deals 1 CON damage to the giving character), which sets him at -9 penalty.
Sunlight Vulnerability: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds vampires for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. They are also considered specifically vulnerable to spells such as sunlight.

I can easily add something like weakness to religious symbols or fire, maybe compensating for it with lesser vampiric buffs like racial +hide/MS bonuses.

The thing about vampires as a class that doesn't make it appealing - it's not gonna be a long campaign, thus the character won't come into any power before endgame at all, and he seems interested in socially-focused classes, especially beguiler, and taking a lot of things away just to let him play a vampire feels rather unfair.

[MilleniaAntares]

Dreamscarred Press's Lords of Night book has a revamped vampire template intended for player use. If you look around, you should find the playtest version.

[inuyasha]

The Green Ronin book Fangs and Fury has a "Vampire Scion" template, which is also a template for player use. It also has some fun feats and prestige classes. My favorite examples are probably the feats that let you drink the four humours, spinal fluid, and synovial fluid.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Thanks for replies and suggestions, everyone!

I think I'm going to go with that. Here's what I managed to write up thus far (+2 total stat being a homerule/PF backport, all the other races are also redone for that):

My read is that this is fairly strong. I'd add a damage die to the bite attack (piercing type) and add a progression for it bypassing damage reduction similar to monk unarmed strikes. I'd also insert the wording that the bite attack only drains blood and deals Con damage if it would deal damage. I'd also more specifically define the type of creature it can be used on so it's more thematically appropriate. After all, plants, oozes, vermin swarms and elementals are all technically living, and I'm not sure draining blood from fire elementals is quite what you're going for.

I'd also add more minor +/-2s to skills and thereabouts. Little niche things that might be useful, or might not, and generally balance out.

Going back to the necessity to use the blood drain a number of times per day, one way that you might go instead is to leave the vampire fairly underpowered normally. Instead of dealing Con damage the bite attack might grant a blood charge to the player, which could be consumed to gain... dunno. Some benefit, perhaps based on the various Luck feats.

[Berenger]

I tried to make something like this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480150-D-amp-D-3-5-d20-Modern-Vampire-LA-0&p=20486176

[Ignimortis]

Dreamscarred Press's Lords of Night book has a revamped vampire template intended for player use. If you look around, you should find the playtest version.

This was of much use, thanks!


The Green Ronin book Fangs and Fury has a "Vampire Scion" template, which is also a template for player use. It also has some fun feats and prestige classes. My favorite examples are probably the feats that let you drink the four humours, spinal fluid, and synovial fluid.

A bit too powerful, but I can use some weaknesses listed there. Thanks!


My read is that this is fairly strong. I'd add a damage die to the bite attack (piercing type) and add a progression for it bypassing damage reduction similar to monk unarmed strikes. I'd also insert the wording that the bite attack only drains blood and deals Con damage if it would deal damage. I'd also more specifically define the type of creature it can be used on so it's more thematically appropriate. After all, plants, oozes, vermin swarms and elementals are all technically living, and I'm not sure draining blood from fire elementals is quite what you're going for.

I'd also add more minor +/-2s to skills and thereabouts. Little niche things that might be useful, or might not, and generally balance out.

Going back to the necessity to use the blood drain a number of times per day, one way that you might go instead is to leave the vampire fairly underpowered normally. Instead of dealing Con damage the bite attack might grant a blood charge to the player, which could be consumed to gain... dunno. Some benefit, perhaps based on the various Luck feats.

I was toying with an idea of feeding progression a-la TES IV, but it seems to be too much mechanically, since it will draw a lot of attention to itself, possibly detracting from actually playing the class, not the race. I can whip up a simpler system, maybe... Skill bonuses to Hide/MS/Bluff seem pretty balanced. Thanks a lot!


I tried to make something like this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480150-D-amp-D-3-5-d20-Modern-Vampire-LA-0&p=20486176

Seems a bit too underpowered to me, but I like the idea that you can feed from animals and so on, but you don't want to unless necessary. Thanks!

[Mystral]

So I'm trying to start a 3.5 game for new players, and a friend of mine asked to play a vampire. I'm OK with that, since it's a custom setting (low-magic, standard quasi-medieval fantasy) and I can add w/e I want, but I'm at a loss exactly how to make a vampire race not OP. He specifically asked for vampires to have weaknesses, since he's a WoD fan and also quite dislikes having characters without weak points.

So far I've figured out that sunlight instakill will have to go for sure, because it'll make this unplayable in most conditions. Garlic is just silly, and running water severely limits travel at low levels.

Any advice on how to make low-powered, blood-dependent pale people work with 0 LA? Preferably not making them undead, since that seems to account for a huge part of their power.

Let's see.

First of, a vulnerability to fire would fit, if he's a fan of WoD.
He could have a form of critical hit vulnerability. Every time a critical hit is scored against him with a piercing weapon, there is a 25% chance of it hitting his heart, staking and paralyzing him.
He should still be weakened by sunlight at the least. Perhaps a penality to all attributes, depending on light level? (-2 indoors with a window or on overcast days, -4 in direct sunlight)

[ShurikVch]

First of, a vulnerability to fire would fit, if he's a fan of WoD.
...
He should still be weakened by sunlight at the least. Perhaps a penality to all attributes, depending on light level? (-2 indoors with a window or on overcast days, -4 in direct sunlight)How about the Troll Blooded feat?
Regeneration 1 (penetrable by fire or acid), severed limb may be reattached or regrow in several days; got fatigued in sunlight

Also, Arctic template (Dragon #306) cause -1 racial penalty on saving throws vs. fire & heat

[Troacctid]

Have you looked at the vampire race from Planeshift: Zendikar? It's for 5e, but it would be fairly easy to convert.