Balance: Polymorph's escape condition

[Kryx]

I'd like to discuss polymorph's escape condition:

The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies.

So Polymorph (4th) effectively removes the target from combat* unless it has some friends who know the mechanics of Polymorph who can try to break it.

* Effectively removed from combat = they are turned into a small CR creature and are trapped/thrown/flown away/etc

Now if we compare that to similar spells:

Sleep (1st): Hard CC. breaks after 1 round. Scales really poorly.
Color Spray (1st): Hard CC. breaks after 1 min, damage, or someone uses an action. Scales really poorly.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1st): Hard CC. Save if they take damage and at the end of the turn.
Crown of Madness (2nd): Hard CC. Requires concentration and your action. Save at the end of each round
Blindness / Deafness (2nd): Hard CC. Save at the end of each round
Hold Person (2nd) / Hold Monster (5th): Hard CC. The target is vulnerable so it's useful for focusing down the target. Save at the end of each round
Levitate (2nd): Hard CC for melee enemies. No save to end, but allies could logically help pull the target down without knowing the mechanics of the spell.
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp (2nd): Hard CC. can use its action to try to escape
Hypnotic Pattern (3rd): Hard CC. Break on damage or someone uses an action
Banishment (4th): Effectively removed from combat for up to 1 minute. Also very strong as the vast majority of combats are over by then.
Confusion (4th): Hard CC. The target has a 20% chance to act normally, 20% chance to attack a random creature, 55% chance to do nothing, and a 10% chance to run away. Pretty effective hard CC. Save at the end of each round
Dominate Beast (4th) / Dominate Person (5th) / Dominate Monster (8th): Hard CC. Creature has advantage on the saving throw so it's not the best option. Save if they take damage
Evard's Black Tentacles (4th): AoE Hard CC. can use its action to try to escape
Stinking Cloud (4th): Hard CC. Can move out of the area.
Water Sphere (4th): Hard CC. Save at the end of each round
Contagion (5th): Hard CC. Takes 3 fails to succumb so not a great combat option.


So my question is: Why does Polymorph not have a saving throw or some other breaking condition? Are minions expected to know how to break it (by attacking their former master who might seek vengeance)?

Should Polymorph have some save at the end of each round? Even if Polymorph did the party could prepare and use their actions to get it away in 1 or 2 rounds.

Banishment could probably also be knocked down a bit. 1 minute out of combat is a bit crazy. Seems like a creature that is not from another plane should have a saving throw at the end of each turn.

[hymer]

Well, there's this: Polymorph and Banishment are both single-target spells, where Confusion and Evard's Squiddy Stuff can affect multiple targets (likewise with Hold Person cast from a higher slot, e.g.).
As for what minions should be told, I guess it's up to the DM. If the players are trying to optimize, the DM could respond with this pull on the lever if s/he wants to keep the challenge.

[Kryx]

Well, there's this: Polymorph and Banishment are both single-target spells, where Confusion and Evard's Squiddy Stuff can affect multiple targets (likewise with Hold Person cast from a higher slot, e.g.).
Hold Monster can be cast at 6th level or higher to target 2 creatures. That's 1/day and much much higher level than a 4th level spell.

That doesn't explain Dominate Beast or Maximilian's Earthen Grasp.


As for what minions should be told, I guess it's up to the DM. If the players are trying to optimize, the DM should respond with this lever to pull.
By what rationale would a creature know how to break Polymorph? Are we assuming every NPC knows to hurt their master (again, potentially triggering retribution)? Seems silly. Also doesn't address Banishment.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The other way to break it is to break the caster's concentration. I'd say even semi-intelligent creatures would know that stabbing the magic man who turned their leader into Magikarp would be a good idea, so long as running away isn't a better one.

Regarding comparison to other spells, most of them are lower level and/or multi-target. Dominate Person has incredible non-combat applications, and the combat utility of the Dominate line is in its unique ability to turn an enemy into a temporary ally. Even one round of a big bruiser's multi-attack can turn the tide better than merely incapacitating it. Banishment basically gives you Polymorph's desired effect, but better, as you pointed out.

Honestly, I find that turning a buddy into King Kong tends to be the better way to use Polymorph anyway, at least when you first get it.

[hymer]

Hold Monster can be cast at 6th level or higher to target 2 creatures. That's 1/day and much much higher level than a 4th level spell.

I don't follow. Why do you menton this?


That doesn't explain Dominate Beast or Maximilian's Earthen Grasp.

I don't know MEG, so I won't speak to that. Dominate Beast is exceedingly niche. Beasts just aren't important enough (intelligence and CR wise) to be worth dominating for that short amount of time. I haven't seen it cast or even prepared. It could be good to take the boss' pet T-rex away and set it on its master. But you'd almost have to go out of your way to construct a sufficiently critical fight where Dominate Beast was key to solving it.


By what rationale would a creature know how to break Polymorph?

'Rationale'? Don't be like that.
I'm thinking boss fights here. If the players want to CC someone small and unimportant, why bother dealing with it. Just let it work. The boss could, and probably should, be aware of spells and how they work, and polymorph is one of those things they could teach their closest mooks and minions to deal with easily. Or you could go with your interpretation and have it be a problem. Or just use bosses with enough Int for this to make sense.


Are we assuming every NPC knows to hurt their master (again, potentially triggering retribution)? Seems silly.

No wonder it seems silly when you put it like that.


Also doesn't address Banishment.

This is true. Banishment is very good, and quite possibly too good.

It's possible the designers simply thought that Legendary Resistance was meant to deal with CC trivializing encounters. It's certainly an aspect a DM should be(come) aware of once the PCs starting using these spells, and think about dealing with it.

[RickAllison]

I don't follow. Why do you menton this?



I don't know MEG, so I won't speak to that. Dominate Beast is exceedingly niche. Beasts just aren't important enough (intelligence and CR wise) to be worth dominating for that short amount of time. I haven't seen it cast or even prepared. It could be good to take the boss' pet T-rex away and set it on its master. But you'd almost have to go out of your way to construct a sufficiently critical fight where Dominate Beast was key to solving it.



'Rationale'? Don't be like that.
I'm thinking boss fights here. If the players want to CC someone small and unimportant, why bother dealing with it. Just let it work. The boss could, and probably should, be aware of spells and how they work, and polymorph is one of those things they could teach their closest mooks and minions to deal with easily. Or you could go with your interpretation and have it be a problem. Or just use bosses with enough Int for this to make sense.



No wonder it seems silly when you put it like that.



This is true. Banishment is very good, and quite possibly too good.

It's possible the designers simply thought that Legendary Resistance was meant to deal with CC trivializing encounters. It's certainly an aspect a DM should be(come) aware of once the PCs starting using these spells, and think about dealing with it.

So true on Banishment. A high-level party with several spell casters can generally get those to burn off LR quickly.

[Kryx]

The other way to break it is to break the caster's concentration. I'd say even semi-intelligent creatures would know that stabbing the magic man who turned their leader into Magikarp would be a good idea, so long as running away isn't a better one.
Concentration exists on I think every spell listed above. Most casters take ways to prevent concentration fails. It's very unlikely in my experience. Especially since we assume they will use Polymorph or Banish to CC the big hitters.

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I don't follow. Why do you menton this?
You said hold person had a save because it could target multiple people.


'Rationale'? Don't be like that.
I'm not "being like that". It's a serious question that the whole thread is based on. The current breaking cause of Polymorph depends on monsters knowing that they can break it by hurting their boss. I'm asking how any minion in existence knows this. The only rationale I can think of is every minion knows every spell. That's rather dissatisfying.


I'm thinking boss fights here... Or just use bosses with enough Int for this to make sense.
I'm talking about cases where the party Polymorphs the boss. In most cases the boss will lose (40% of the time they succeed. math (http://anydice.com/program/8d0b) based on MM averages (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1829796671))


The boss could, and probably should, be aware of spells and how they work, and polymorph is one of those things they could teach their closest mooks and minions to deal with easily.
So every boss has trained all of their minions to prevent all CC spells? They've drilled them on how to end each one?


It's possible the designers simply thought that Legendary Resistance was meant to deal with CC trivializing encounters. It's certainly an aspect a DM should be(come) aware of once the PCs starting using these spells, and think about dealing with it.
I agree that legendary resistance is important, but that is on top of the save every round or other breaking condition for the other spells.


______


I completely agree, the Polymorph spell is totally malfunctioning in comparison to other spells. It has broken many of my important fights... Especially when the caster has portent, it's essentially an unstoppable NOPE.

I think that just like Crown of Madness (And most other similar spells), creatures should be able to attempt the saving throw until the spell ends, either as an action or at the end of their turn.
Agreed.

My initial thoughts are to give:
Polymorph a save at the end of every turn
Banishment: "Any creature who is not native to another plane can make a saving throw at the end of each turn."

[HoarsHalberd]

Concentration exists on I think every spell listed above. Most casters take ways to prevent concentration fails. It's very unlikely in my experience. Especially since we assume they will use Polymorph or Banish to CC the big hitters.

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You said hold person had a save because it could target multiple people.


I'm not "being like that". It's a serious question that the whole thread is based on. The current breaking cause of Polymorph depends on monsters knowing that they can break it by hurting their boss. I'm asking how any minion in existence knows this. The only rationale I can think of is every minion knows every spell. That's rather dissatisfying.


I'm talking about cases where the party Polymorphs the boss. In most cases the boss will lose (40% of the time they succeed. math (http://anydice.com/program/8d0b) based on MM averages (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=1829796671))


So every boss has trained all of their minions to prevent all CC spells? They've drilled them on how to end each one?


I agree that legendary resistance is important, but that is on top of the save every round or other breaking condition for the other spells.


______


Agreed.

My initial thoughts are to give:
Polymorph a save at the end of every turn
Banishment: "Any creature who is not native to another plane can make a saving throw at the end of each turn."

The rationale is all of the others allow for foes to use the gained turn(s) to butcher the person affected by the spell and/or effect multiple foes. Hold monster lets you easily do massive damage to it during the turn. Polymorph ends as soon as it takes a hit (essentially) and provides a small buffer to damage received.

[Foxhound438]

If the party has casters, wouldn't it be reasonable for the bad guys' team to have some too? especially past levels 1-4, where you're starting to deal with "more serious and widespread threats", wouldn't it make sense in a world where spell casters exist for at least some of them to be non-good enough to be bought by or allied with a powerful "evil" group? it doesn't make sense to me for a BBEG, even if a mundane-type himself, to not have some dispel abilities somewhere on their team.

[Kryx]

Polymorph ends as soon as it takes a hit (essentially) and provides a small buffer to damage received.
That's the whole point. It should never be hit unless the boss has told all of his minions about Polymorph and taught them to break him out if it happens to him.


If the party has casters, wouldn't it be reasonable for the bad guys' team to have some too? especially past levels 1-4
So every group of enemies is now expected to have spellcasters to balance out these 2 options? So large sharks or squids are no longer an option unless they've been told by their spellcaster friends how to end Polymorph... Cmon... The enemies don't need casters to avoid getting wrecked by any of the other hard CC spells.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Concentration exists on I think every spell listed above.Yes, concentration is a limiter on all those spells, but that part wasn't about spell comparison.
Most casters take ways to prevent concentration fails. It's very unlikely in my experience. Especially since we assume they will use Polymorph or Banish to CC the big hitters.Countermeasures make it easier to pass concentration saves, but I don't find them to be as ubiquitous as you do, and it's not fool proof. At the level you get Polymorph, with a (somewhat generous) base 15 con, a caster with Resilient: CON will fail DC 10 CON saves 15% of the time. The same caster with Warcaster will fail ~12% of the time. These are long odds for the enemy, no doubt, but the odds start improving once you start damaging the caster repeatedly, or once for a lot of damage. And of course, if you damage the caster enough, no CON save will protect her from falling unconscious and losing concentration automatically.

Dispel Magic also works on a Polymorphed target, if there happens to be a support caster. (Support casters in general make life difficult for PC casters, just like PC casters make life difficult for NPCs.)

[Kryx]

concentration
Dispel Magic
Once again, both of these options work for every spell on the list. They are not factors when comparing the spells to one another.

[RickAllison]

That's the whole point. It should never be hit unless the boss has told all of his minions about Polymorph and taught them to break him out if it happens to him.


So every group of enemies is now expected to have spellcasters to balance out these 2 options? So large sharks or squids are no longer an option unless they've been told by their spellcaster friends how to end Polymorph... Cmon... The enemies don't need casters to avoid getting wrecked by any of the other hard CC spells.

1) If a party uses a single spell frequently, they are liable to leave someone alive who can communicate the effectiveness. At that point, you only need one person with Arcana or the spell to teach the army how to foil it (though it remains an effective debuff).

2) Potential candidates for knowing the spell's effects: Faerie Dragons, Hags, Pixies, Silver Dragons, Drow Mages, Flameskulls, Flumphs, Storm Giants, Githzerai Zerth, Liches, Mind Flayers, Nothics, Oni, Green and higher Slaadi, Sphinxes, Arcanaloths, Archmagi, and Magi. Plenty of evil options there, and even more if we count people who could have spells swapped out into the lists by the DM (including wizard, sorcerer, Druid, and bard spell lists), including Spirit Naga, vampires, lizardfolk shamans, and Druids. Additionally, any creatures with appropriate class levels would likely know about it. All it takes is one captured Bard and the weaknesses to numerous spells could be known.

Now this wouldn't necessarily be uniform in an army. When a company of orcs sees its Oni leader suddenly turned into a bunny, very few of them may know the effect, especially if the personal guard of the Oni was already defeated and so the orcs most likely to know the spell are dead. In contrast, the personal guards of the Hag coven are likely to have been versed in all manner of spells and how to counter them. Trying to take out their big guys with Polymorph is likely to have one strike his fellow to get him back.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Once again, both of these options work for every spell on the list. They are not factors when comparing the spells to one another.Once again, I addressed the spell comparison separately. Your concern was that Polymorph was very likely to stick around against enemies not schooled in magic, to which I replied that concentration spells have a way of ending before combat is over even if the enemy is relatively clueless. If you are merely concerned that Polymorph is more likely to stick around than other concentration spells, re-iterating the spell comparison argument should do the trick:

The spells you listed are in at least one of three categories: Multi-target, lower level, and Dominate/Banishment. Multi-target spells don't last as long, sure, but their immediate expected effect is larger. By the time the enemy recovers, it's likely too late for them. It's a worthwhile trade-off, one that favors multi-target spells more often than not. Lower level spells should be less effective, so I'm fine with that aspect.

Dominate Person is a great non-combat spell, and niche in-combat. Dominate Beast is even more niche, and if a spell can't be better than it, then half the book constitutes problem cases.

Banishment is definitely a powerful spell. It targets a softer save, scales well, and even has special niche benefits against extraplanar enemies. If anything, Banishment more effectively represents your complaint than Polymorph, because the only thing that can stop it early once it's taken hold is breaking concentration. However, it's still single-target at level 4, meaning you're far more likely to have an effect on the fight by casting a multi-target incapacitating spell that ends more quickly. Combats don't tend to last very long, especially when one side is caught in one of those AoE effects.

[Kryx]

Faerie Dragons, Hags, Pixies, Silver Dragons, Drow Mages, Flameskulls, Flumphs, Storm Giants, Githzerai Zerth, Liches, Mind Flayers, Nothics, Oni, Green and higher Slaadi, Sphinxes, Arcanaloths, Archmagi, and Magi.
Many of those could know about spells. Do you now depend on your BBEG informing every enemy that the PCs fight?

For my case I've only used one in my game (mind flayers), but he didn't bother to tell the cyclopses or Megalodons or Krakens or Harpies about that polymorph spell because he's not involved in those factions at all. Sure there are a few rare cases where polymorph's end condition matters, but for the vast majority of play time where Polymorph was available in my campaign (level 7 to current level 10) that would've been impactful for 1 fight out of ~20-25.


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Your concern was that Polymorph was very likely to stick around against enemies not schooled in magic
My concerns is that Polymorph and Banishment are far more powerful than their equivalent level spells. Concentration and other means that can end those comparison spells has no bearing on these 2 spells compared to those comparison spells because Concentration and similar tactics can be used on the comparison spells as well.


Banishment is definitely a powerful spell. It targets a softer save, scales well, and even has special niche benefits against extraplanar enemies. If anything, Banishment more effectively represents your complaint than Polymorph, because the only thing that can stop it early once it's taken hold is breaking concentration.
I agree. Comparing it to Pathfinder's Dismissal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dismissal) makes it seem godly as that only works on extraplanar creatures.


However, it's still single-target at level 4, meaning you're far more likely to have an effect on the fight by casting a multi-target incapacitating spell that ends more quickly. Combats don't tend to last very long, especially when one side is caught in one of those AoE effects.
It is likely the best CC in the game, single target or not. Every combat could immensely benefit from removing the largest threat for 1 minute. In nearly all cases that means combat is effectively just clean up.

[Foxhound438]

So every group of enemies is now expected to have spellcasters to balance out these 2 options? So large sharks or squids are no longer an option unless they've been told by their spellcaster friends how to end Polymorph... Cmon... The enemies don't need casters to avoid getting wrecked by any of the other hard CC spells.

if the party blows their 4th level spell slots to fight random squids or sharks, that's up to them. but they shouldn't have all week to recover spell slots between every fight. time sensitivity should be a thing in games, or you start seeing these kinds of balance issues where every fight is just burst down by long rest recoverables, and suddenly it's super hard for anything to actually pose a threat to the party.

[MaxWilson]

I don't understand why some people are so obsessed with homogenizing the game. That just makes it more boring.

[Cakeking]

That's the whole point. It should never be hit unless the boss has told all of his minions about Polymorph and taught them to break him out if it happens to him.

I think it really depends on the general intelligence of the npc's they are fighting and the abundance of magic in your campaign. Animals, would not be aware for sure.

What DC arcana check would it be to know how concentrating on spells work? If you really have trouble with the concept of the lord of evil sending out a memo to his troops, who were probably trained in combat of some sort by someone who would train them to fight against casters, then before combat have whatever group of monster make an arcana check to see if they know how magic works in the world.

Can you name some monsters or NPC's that you think wouldn't be aware of how concentration works? if the list is small...it really isnt as issue.

Instead of asking yourself "how would they know" when it comes to magic of any kind, instead ask yourself "why wouldn't they know?"

[Kryx]

if the party blows their 4th level spell slots to fight random squids or sharks, that's up to them. but they shouldn't have all week to recover spell slots between every fight. time sensitivity should be a thing in games, or you start seeing these kinds of balance issues where every fight is just burst down by long rest recoverables, and suddenly it's super hard for anything to actually pose a threat to the party.
CR 10 sharks are not "random squids or sharks. Neither is a CR 12 mini-kraken.

1 spell slot used in combat to turn a deadly combat to an easy combat is definitely the best usage of their spells. For example I sent my CR 10 party against 2 CR 10s. That's 17,700 vs the normal 11,200 deadly XP. Removing 1 makes the encounter medium and rather easy to clean up


_____


I don't understand why some people are so obsessed with homogenizing the game. That just makes it more boring.
You're more than welcome to leave your condescending opinions in other threads and not worry about people like me trying to "make the game boring."

Seriously Max, all you do is bring your condescension to every one of my posts. I have no desire to read it. Please stop replying to me.


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What DC arcana check would it be to know how concentrating on spells work?
You mean what DC is it to know how to break out of a specific spell? I use DC 10+spell level. The average CR 7 enemy has 0 intelligence so they have a 35% chance of knowing about the spell (anydice (http://anydice.com/program/8d0e)). Megalodons have -5 Int so they'd have a 10% chance. Even then his buddy was already carried away so even if he figured it out he has no chance of breaking it.

It also feels rather wrong to have NPCs like Sharks or Cyclopses who have never been exposed to Polymorph even have a chance to know about it. Cyclopses know about spells, but not Polymorph.


If you really have trouble with the concept of the lord of evil sending out a memo to his troops"
I don't have an evil lord or his troops in my game. And a spell shouldn't be balanced around the idea of such.


Can you name some monsters or NPC's that you think wouldn't be aware of how concentration works? if the list is small...it really isnt as issue."
Please read the post. Not once have I brought up concentration as the issue.

[RickAllison]

Many of those could know about spells. Do you now depend on your BBEG informing every enemy that the PCs fight?

For my case I've only used one in my game (mind flayers), but he didn't bother to tell the cyclopses or Megalodons or Krakens or Harpies about that polymorph spell because he's not involved in those factions at all. Sure there are a few rare cases where polymorph's end condition matters, but for the vast majority of play time where Polymorph was available in my campaign (level 7 to current level 10) that would've been impactful for 1 fight out of ~20-25.

It would make more sense if you addressed entire posts instead of singling out paragraphs that's were then elaborated on to address these concerns :smalltongue:. The entire army doesn't need to know. If the BBEG finds out that one of his lieutenants or allies was taken out by a spell like Banishment or Polymorph, then I would expect any halfway intelligent one to ensure any major underlings he doesn't perceive as posing a threat (maybe he thinks the kraken is dangerous to his plans, so he is okay with these PCs taking it out) knows how to deal with such problems. In real life, a CEO who finds out that one branch has collapsed because of a particular flaw is going to make sure that the flaw is fixed for the other branches. If he has a single Hag in any of his troops (they are one of the creatures that have Polymorph as a spell, so they definitely know it's weaknesses), then his lieutenants have the information necessary to share with their personal guard, or potentially all the troops. An evil Pixie would be ecstatic about whispering to enemy forces how to counteract the spells of the party. Arcanaloths would want to study how the party deals when their go-to spell is wasted.

Frankly, it makes little sense that an army wouldn't have at least some troops with knowledge of how to counteract a weapon that is being used against them. Polymorph is such an iconic spell that I wouldn't be surprised if numerous people who lacked Arcana knew how it worked. Maybe in a low-magic world, but any woodcutting village near Pixies likely has at least one person who knows how to counteract their tricks.

[pwykersotz]

Putting the new save at the end of each round might make sense when compared to the other spells, but I think the other spells are a bridge too far. It is incredibly frustrating to have a high level spell break the round after you cast it just because of a lucky high roll. If the mechanic is added, I would be tempted to give disadvantage on new saves that were made while under the effect.

It happened to a player of mine. He was not pleased.

[Kryx]

It would make more sense if you addressed entire posts instead of singling out paragraphs that's were then elaborated on to address these concerns :smalltongue:
I reply to specific parts of the post. In this case the rest of that paragraph depended on the BBEG commanding an army so it wasn't relevant as that is not an assumption I use nor should be it assumed.
I don't have a BBEG, lieutenants, or an army. You have misrepresented my complaint or at best substituted what you think should be in most campaigns.

_________________



Putting the new save at the end of each round might make sense when compared to the other spells, but I think the other spells are a bridge too far. It is incredibly frustrating to have a high level spell break the round after you cast it just because of a lucky high roll. If the mechanic is added, I would be tempted to give disadvantage on new saves that were made while under the effect.
That's the reality of 5e spells. As I showed on the list above every single one of them has either a means to escape, a save end, or both. Except these 2 spells (and maybe some others I haven't noticed yet).

Even if Polymorph has a save most creatures have 50% or less chance of success (the same for Hold Person/Hold Monster). So it'll last a round or two which is the normal for these type of Hard CC spells.

[pwykersotz]

That's the reality of 5e spells. As I showed on the list above every single one of them has either a means to escape, a save end, or both. Except these 2 spells (and maybe some others I haven't noticed yet).

Even if Polymorph has a save most creatures have 50% or less chance of success (the same for Hold Person/Hold Monster). So it'll last a round or two which is the normal for these type of Hard CC spells.

Well, yeah, but you're talking about adding a brand new element to an existing spell. I'm not advocating you retool all of 5e, just that there might be a middle ground which might provide more satisfaction for both casters and victims for the particular spells you are referencing.

[Cakeking]

CR 10 sharks are not "random squids or sharks. Neither is a CR 12 mini-kraken.

1 spell slot used in combat to turn a deadly combat to an easy combat is definitely the best usage of their spells. For example I sent my CR 10 party against 2 CR 10s. That's 17,700 vs the normal 11,200 deadly XP. Removing 1 makes the encounter medium and rather easy to clean up


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You're more than welcome to leave your condescending opinions in other threads and not worry about people like me trying to "make the game boring."

Seriously Max, all you do is bring your condescension to every one of my posts. I have no desire to read it. Please stop replying to me.


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You mean what DC is it to know how to break out of a specific spell? I use DC 10+spell level. The average CR 7 enemy has 0 intelligence so they have a 35% chance of knowing about the spell (anydice (http://anydice.com/program/8d0e)). Megalodons have -5 Int so they'd have a 10% chance. Even then his buddy was already carried away so even if he figured it out he has no chance of breaking it.

It also feels rather wrong to have NPCs like Sharks or Cyclopses who have never been exposed to Polymorph even have a chance to know about it. Cyclopses know about spells, but not Polymorph.


I don't have an evil lord or his troops in my game. And a spell shouldn't be balanced around the idea of such.


Please read the post. Not once have I brought up concentration as the issue.

I wonder where i got that quote from....anyway, no the dc to know how to break almost every single debuff spell that is powerful, breaking the caster concentration.

You are saying polymorph is too strong because it removes someone from combat, and there's nothing they can do about it. There is though, break the casters concentration, then you said it wouldn't be common knowledge among enemies and i am saying it would be. If a monster or npc is strong enough to cause a problem that needs a party of adventurers to take care of it, chances are it knows about casters at least a little or it would be dead by time the party gets there.

Please tell me a few examples of enemies that wouldn't know how to break concentration and end spells like polymorph that are high enough CR to face a party that can use it

[krugaan]

How is polymorph better than fear or hypnotic pattern? They all remove characters from the fight, allow no secondary save (sort of, in fear's case), break on certain outside conditions. Fear and HP are also lower level and AOE, where polymorph is not.

[RickAllison]

I reply to specific parts of the post. In this case the rest of that paragraph depended on the BBEG commanding an army so it wasn't relevant as that is not an assumption I use nor should be it assumed.
I don't have a BBEG, lieutenants, or an army. You have misrepresented my complaint or at best substituted what you think should be in most campaigns.

_________________



That's the reality of 5e spells. As I showed on the list above every single one of them has either a means to escape, a save end, or both. Except these 2 spells (and maybe some others I haven't noticed yet).

Even if Polymorph has a save most creatures have 50% or less chance of success (the same for Hold Person/Hold Monster). So it'll last a round or two which is the normal for these type of Hard CC spells.

Alright, then let's go to discreet groups of enemies rather than anyone with a unified leader. The players get to use a spell to make an encounter easier for a while. They will still eventually have to deal with them or have an enemy still out there. Go a spell level up and you get Wall of Force, which has a similar effect but gives no save whatsoever. The players are either splitting up an encounter (a smart use of resources, and the point of many strategies anyway) or leaving what was likely the most dangerous foe to live and fight again. I fail to see how a caster using limited resources to make one isolated encounter easier is damaging the game. If this makes an encounter with two tough enemies much easier, then perfect! That is the point of the spell and the players were being smart.

So if your complaint is solely about making 1-save spells less dangerous, you have a lot of work to do. Banishment and Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force, just to begin.

Frankly, Polymorph isn't bad at all. When the spell can be negated by an attack without having to worry about a save, it is actually an easier fix than spells that only offer saves on damage. If encounters are always solved by splitting with Polymorph or Banishment, it might be that the encounters aren't varied enough.

[Saeviomage]

I guess one could argue that a polymorphed foe can run away to fight another day.

One could also argue that a polymorphed foe who has personal knowledge of the spell could try to eat something far too big to eat (like a nearby pebble), deliberately choking itself and reducing it's own hit points to zero, immediately triggering transformation back.

Looking through the available forms, I think the most harmless thing you can turn someone into is probably an octopus. They won't start suffocating for half an hour, and their attacks are pretty weak, but they only have a land speed of 5 ft, making escape difficult. Only problem is that they're small, so technically could grapple medium characters if they manage to make it to you.

[RickAllison]

I guess one could argue that a polymorphed foe can run away to fight another day.

One could also argue that a polymorphed foe who has personal knowledge of the spell could try to eat something far too big to eat (like a nearby pebble), deliberately choking itself and reducing it's own hit points to zero, immediately triggering transformation back.

Looking through the available forms, I think the most harmless thing you can turn someone into is probably an octopus. They won't start suffocating for half an hour, and their attacks are pretty weak, but they only have a land speed of 5 ft, making escape difficult. Only problem is that they're small, so technically could grapple medium characters if they manage to make it to you.

I really like the image of every Polymorphed foe the party left getting together as a support group. Of course, monster support groups just seem like a fun idea. Especially if they gang up to get revenge on the party!

[MaxWilson]

So if your complaint is solely about making 1-save spells less dangerous, you have a lot of work to do. Banishment and Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force, just to begin.

In fact, Paladins have a level one spell (Wrathful Smite) which is one-save-only and to most intents and purposes is a mission kill.

Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Polymorph, Banishment, Wrathful Smite are all excellent.


Looking through the available forms, I think the most harmless thing you can turn someone into is probably an octopus. They won't start suffocating for half an hour, and their attacks are pretty weak, but they only have a land speed of 5 ft, making escape difficult. Only problem is that they're small, so technically could grapple medium characters if they manage to make it to you.

Even weak attacks will suffice for the octopus to "kill" itself, and thereby transform back.

[Temperjoke]

Couldn't the reason for it being different be because it's also intended to be used on allies as well as enemies? Having more conditions that can break it would make it less effective using it on other group members.

[krugaan]

Couldn't the reason for it being different be because it's also intended to be used on allies as well as enemies? Having more conditions that can break it would make it less effective using it on other group members.

Shucks, I was hoping the OP would point that out himself.

Yes, that is indeed a major defining difference between polymorph and straight CC spells like fear and hypnotic pattern.

In fact, I don't see what all the fuss is about polymorph anyway. There are relatively few forms which are both harmless and hard to kill.

[Temperjoke]

Shucks, I was hoping the OP would point that out himself.

Yes, that is indeed a major defining difference between polymorph and straight CC spells like fear and hypnotic pattern.

In fact, I don't see what all the fuss is about polymorph anyway. There are relatively few forms which are both harmless and hard to kill.

Well, someone else pointed it out earlier in the thread, but it got ignored then in favor of it being discussed as a CC spell. I blame the fact that it's used exclusively in several games as a CC that turns enemies into harmless critters, instead of turning allies into terrifying beasts.

[krugaan]

Well, someone else pointed it out earlier in the thread, but it got ignored then in favor of it being discussed as a CC spell. I blame the fact that it's used exclusively in several games as a CC that turns enemies into harmless critters, instead of turning allies into terrifying beasts.

Ah, i missed it. CC turning enemies into harmless critters is a bad way to CC, imo, simply because critters will die in a single hit, regardless of whatever the DM or the players say about versimilitude and NPCs knowing about spell effects and whatnot.

If anything, turning someone into a killer whale or whatever with no land movement is better.

[MaxWilson]

Ah, i missed it. CC turning enemies into harmless critters is a bad way to CC, imo, simply because critters will die in a single hit, regardless of whatever the DM or the players say about versimilitude and NPCs knowing about spell effects and whatnot.

If anything, turning someone into a killer whale or whatever with no land movement is better.

Genius. Comedy gold.

[krugaan]

Genius. Comedy gold.

It's a WHALE of a good time!

/kneeslap

But seriously, yeah, it's super effective.

[Zalabim]

I'd like to discuss polymorph's escape condition:


So Polymorph (4th) effectively removes the target from combat* unless it has some friends who know the mechanics of Polymorph who can try to break it.

* Effectively removed from combat = they are turned into a small CR creature and are trapped/thrown/flown away/etc

Now if we compare that to similar spells:

Sleep (1st): Hard CC. breaks after 1 round. Scales really poorly.
Color Spray (1st): Hard CC. breaks after 1 min, damage, or someone uses an action. Scales really poorly.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (1st): Hard CC. Save if they take damage and at the end of the turn.
You have Sleep reversed with Color Spray. Also, Blindness is not Hard CC. How does a creature know it can wake its ally with an action? You forgot to include Entangle in this level.

Crown of Madness (2nd): Hard CC. Requires concentration and your action. Save at the end of each round
Blindness / Deafness (2nd): Hard CC. Save at the end of each round
Hold Person (2nd) / Hold Monster (5th): Hard CC. The target is vulnerable so it's useful for focusing down the target. Save at the end of each round
Levitate (2nd): Hard CC for melee enemies. No save to end, but allies could logically help pull the target down without knowing the mechanics of the spell.
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp (2nd): Hard CC. can use its action to try to escape
You forgot Web in this level. Blindness/Deafness is not Hard CC. At 20 feet, the levitating creature is going to be out of reach of most of its allies, preventing them from helping it. How would they know that sufficient weight can bring the victim back down?

Hypnotic Pattern (3rd): Hard CC. Break on damage or someone uses an action
You forgot Fear in this level. How would a creature know to use an action to break the hypnosis on an ally?

Banishment (4th): Effectively removed from combat for up to 1 minute. Also very strong as the vast majority of combats are over by then.
Confusion (4th): Hard CC. The target has a 20% chance to act normally, 20% chance to attack a random creature, 55% chance to do nothing, and a 10% chance to run away. Pretty effective hard CC. Save at the end of each round
Dominate Beast (4th) / Dominate Person (5th) / Dominate Monster (8th): Hard CC. Creature has advantage on the saving throw so it's not the best option. Save if they take damage
Evard's Black Tentacles (4th): AoE Hard CC. can use its action to try to escape
Stinking Cloud (4th): Hard CC. Can move out of the area.
Water Sphere (4th): Hard CC. Save at the end of each round
Stinking Cloud is 3rd level. You're missing Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in this level.

Contagion (5th): Hard CC. Takes 3 fails to succumb so not a great combat option.


So my question is: Why does Polymorph not have a saving throw or some other breaking condition?
Missing Wall of Force for 5th level.

Polymorph does have another breaking condition. Presumably it is as well known as how to break hypnosis, how to end magical sleep, that levitation can only lift 500 pounds, and that you should not stand next to a confused creature, since both sleep and polymorph are available to CR 1/4 critters.

Banishment is obviously the stronger crowd control option, since it targets a weaker save, doesn't require any extra action to keep the target preoccupied, has no special early break condition, and has special effect against extraplanar creatures. Presumably this is to balance it with Polymorph's other uses.


CR 10 sharks are not "random squids or sharks. Neither is a CR 12 mini-kraken.

1 spell slot used in combat to turn a deadly combat to an easy combat is definitely the best usage of their spells. For example I sent my CR 10 party against 2 CR 10s. That's 17,700 vs the normal 11,200 deadly XP. Removing 1 makes the encounter medium and rather easy to clean up
One fight against two CR 10s where the caster successfully uses a CC spell so they fight them back to back is unquestionably using more resources, and thus a harder fight, than those two CR 10s back to back without needing the caster's intereference, regardless of the chance for the spell to fail or be ended early.


Even if Polymorph has a save most creatures have 50% or less chance of success (the same for Hold Person/Hold Monster). So it'll last a round or two which is the normal for these type of Hard CC spells.
According to your link, the CR 10 creatures are
Aboleth - +6 Con save. Saves 50% of the time against a DC 17.
Death Slaad - Shapechanger. Immune.
Deva - A good creature with magic resistance. +4 Con save. Saves 64% of the time against DC 17.
Guardian Naga - A good creature. +7 Con save. Saves 55% of the time against DC 17.
Madam Eva - An NPC. I don't know her abilities. +5 Con save saves 45% of the time though.
Rahadin - I don't even know. +7 Con save, so saves 55% of the time against DC 17.
Stone Golem - Immutable Form. Immune.
Yochlol - Shapechanger. Immune.
Young Gold Dragon - + 9 Con save. Saves 65% of the time against a DC 17.
Young Red Dragon - +9 Con save. Saves 65% of the time against a DC 17.

So out of the ten creatures listed, 2 of them save 50% or less of the time and they all have good reasons to know about magic. Your pair of CR 10 example seems spurious. A pair of dragons is likely to accidentally end the effect with their fiery breath if one of them does succumb to the spell, for example.


How is polymorph better than fear or hypnotic pattern? They all remove characters from the fight, allow no secondary save (sort of, in fear's case), break on certain outside conditions. Fear and HP are also lower level and AOE, where polymorph is not.

This is probably the biggest hole in Kryx's argument.

[Kryx]

So if your complaint is solely about making 1-save spells less dangerous, you have a lot of work to do. Banishment and Polymorph, True Polymorph, Wall of Force, just to begin
Yup, I already have a list. Started a while ago with Let's list the "broken" spells (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?358754-Let-s-list-the-quot-broken-quot-spells)

_______________________


Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Polymorph, Banishment, Wrathful Smite are all excellent.
Hypnotic pattern has 2 breaks - action or damage
Fear has a save
Wall of Stone would only work on creatures that are large or smaller and has ~90 HP to break out. Definitely lasts a few rounds, but many limiting conditions
Wall of Force is indeed on that list - no way to escape. Should likely have the same situation as wall of stone with the dex save and some hit points as it did in old editions (Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/wall-of-force))
Polymorph / True Polymorph CR is incredibly high. Very little reason to be a moon druid. I already reduce the CR. Save each round on the offensive one solves the issue.
Banishment save each round (unless you're native to another plane) solves it.
Wrathful smite has an escape - as an action.

_______________________


Couldn't the reason for it being different be because it's also intended to be used on allies as well as enemies? Having more conditions that can break it would make it less effective using it on other group members.
There is no save for allies already.

_______________________


Stuff
The list I provided wasn't meant to be exhaustive. You're right that I swapped Sleep/Color Spray. Many of the others you list like web have ways of escaping.
Levitate bringing someone back down isn't hard knowledge - they're floating so you pull them down. Very different from polymorph where you have to kill them to bring them back which is very counter intuitive imo.
Fear: "Snap out of it!" is a very common and well known trope.


]Aboleth - +6 Con save. Saves 50% of the time against a DC 17.
Hold person is a Wisdom save, not Con.
_______________________


How is polymorph better than fear or hypnotic pattern? They all remove characters from the fight, allow no secondary save (sort of, in fear's case), break on certain outside conditions. Fear and HP are also lower level and AOE, where polymorph is not.
Fear breaks after 1 or two turns unless 1 player is dedicating his whole round to chase the guy. Even then a creature can likely get out of sight at the end of most rounds
Hypnotic Pattern can be broken by allies.

Polymorph can also be broken by allies, but the whole point of this thread is that it is illogical for allies to kill the crab assuming it'll turn back into their master without arcane knowledge of this specific spell.

[Tehnar]

I just want to point out that Hypnotic pattern has a huge area, and its easy enough to catch most of the encounter in it. Even if some make their saves, other teammates can usually prevent others from Team Monster from reaching their fellows and freeing them.

[Segev]

This may have been mentioned and I missed it, but polymorph breaks if you do all the hp of the assumed form. If it's being used to turn the wizard into a frog, just smack him with the barbarian's club to break him out of it.

The "turn into a whale" thing's a bit better.

[MaxWilson]

Yo, Kryx, if you want me not to reply to your posts, you need to stop replying to mine. Please stop.

You need to look again at the math for Wrathful Smite. Wisdom check at disadvantage as an action is far more powerful than save-each-round. It will last between 4x and 10x longer than any of those. If you're trying to homogenize the spells, it's really weird that you'd overlook Wrathful Smite but nerf Banishment--they both have effectively the same duration ("whole fight"), especially in those short little three-round combats you mention so often.

[Kryx]

If you're going to engage in the conversation and without condescension then you're welcome to participate.

Wrathful Smite is a DC 13 at 1st level so we're looking at a d20 >= 13 which is 40%.

Duration:
1 turn: 60%
2 turns (2 failed saves) = 36%
3 turns (3 failed saves) = 21.6%
4 turns (4 failed saves) = 12.96%
5 turns (5 failed saves) = 7.77%

All spells of the same type would have the same probability. So would the proposed Polymorph and Banishment.

[MaxWilson]

If you're going to engage in the conversation and without condescension then you're welcome to participate.

Wrathful Smite is a DC 13 at 1st level so we're looking at a d20 >= 13 which is 40%.

Duration:
1 turn: 60%
2 turns (2 failed saves) = 36%
3 turns (3 failed saves) = 21.6%
4 turns (4 failed saves) = 12.96%
5 turns (5 failed saves) = 7.77%

All spells of the same type would have the same probability. So would the proposed Polymorph and Banishment.

Fear imposes disadvantage on ability checks. DC 13 gets broken (0.4^2) = 16% of the time, which means it will last for 6.25 rounds on average.

Wisdom checks, unlike Wisdom saves, tend not to scale even for high-level monsters, so the spell only gets stronger at higher level. A high-level Paladin has a DC of 19; a CR 24 ancient red dragon gets +2 to Wisdom checks; it can spend its action to have a (0.2^2=4%) chance of breaking the spell; the spell will last for 25 rounds on average on that ancient red dragon.

I'm not being condescending; I just strongly disagree with your methodology and conclusions, and your occasional eggregious errors of fact. Wrathful Smite lasts far longer than you think it does. For most intents and purposes it lasts all combat, just like Wall of Force/Banishment, but it's 1st level instead of 4th.

Polymorph isn't an outlier.

[Markoff Chainey]

Honestly, up to now I never realized that the "save-or-suck" use of polymorph is a problem because the other use as a buff was always a much bigger issue on my table. (My group solved that with the houserules more or less, but it still is the bigger issue compared to the other.)

Given that polymorph has this multi-use as save-or-suck AND a buff, it actually should be weaker than comparable spells, yet it is stronger.

Comparing the spells, though, I think it is pretty clear that Polymorph stands out when compared against other CC spells as stronger. Now, as usual, people will go to any length to argue for the arguments sake and for the question of how much imbalance one shall tolerate before making a houserule... Thanks Kryx for pointing that out, I think your point is very valid and strong.

I would like to add a new argument on the topic of the minions beating their boss... if that would be an adequate and widely accepted method, illusions would become a much bigger problem, because any spellcaster could cast an illusion of a giant frog just in front of the BBEG an her minions would start hitting her, because they would think she was polymorphed...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Honestly, up to now I never realized that the "save-or-suck" use of polymorph is a problem because the other use as a buff was always a much bigger issue on my table.No, you have the right of it. Polymorph is best used as a buff. Banishment is pretty much strictly better as CC. But I think Kryx overrates single-target CC in general; in certain fights where there's one obvious guy to target it's good... if there isn't legendary resistance at play. It's usually far better to get multiple shots at disabling foes in the first 1-3 rounds, if you can.

Now, a Sorcerer loves all the uses of Polymorph, because he gets multiple functions out of one precious spell known. But that illustrates the cost of his limited spells known - he has to settle for single-target CC that targets CON saves and doesn't scale.

[Kryx]

Fear imposes disadvantage on ability checks.
Ability Checks are not saving throws. To break free of Fear requires a Wisdom saving throw which is not altered in any way.

_____________


Comparing the spells, though, I think it is pretty clear that Polymorph stands out when compared against other CC spells as stronger. Now, as usual, people will go to any length to argue for the arguments sake and for the question of how much imbalance one shall tolerate before making a houserule... Thanks Kryx for pointing that out, I think your point is very valid and strong.
Hey, thanks for the feedback. In general people are opposed to altering the game and that's understandable. My tolerance for level of imbalance is much lower than many other players so I'm more willing to tweak. Though I still do appreciate well-founded feedback which is why I post it here. :)


I would like to add a new argument on the topic of the minions beating their boss... if that would be an adequate and widely accepted method, illusions would become a much bigger problem, because any spellcaster could cast an illusion of a giant frog just in front of the BBEG an her minions would start hitting her, because they would think she was polymorphed...
Indeed, that could easily be abused. I don't want to nerf the spell - just give it a reasonable escape mechanic like all the other CC spells (sans Banishment).

[MaxWilson]

No, you have the right of it. Polymorph is best used as a buff. Banishment is pretty much strictly better as CC. But I think Kryx overrates single-target CC in general; in certain fights where there's one obvious guy to target it's good... if there isn't legendary resistance at play. It's usually far better to get multiple shots at disabling foes in the first 1-3 rounds, if you can.

You usually get better mileage out of something like Evard's Black Tentacles: not only can it hit multiple targets (multiplying your effect), but it also (1) targets a weak save on most monsters (Dex), (2) does damage in addition to control (like an ongoing Fireball), (3) if the target makes its initial save, you can still use grapples/Pushes/Thunderwaves/Repelling Blast/etc. to force it to repeat the save, (4) once the target fails the save, you can apply various conditions (Poisoned, Frightened, Hex spell) to impose disadvantage on the ability check to minimize the odds of it breaking free again. That's a lot harder to do with saving throws.

Legendary Resistance is still a huge issue, of course--control spells tend not to work on those creatures. The LR imbalance between saving throw spells vs. ability check spells vs. no-save spells (like Wall of Force) is actually one of the larger issues with Legendary Resistance itself. I advocate fixing Legendary Resistance to be more like Counterspell, so that it eats a reaction but not a resource, and can work against any spell, not just ones that target saving throws. That's off-topic for this thread though.

========================


Ability Checks are not saving throws. To break free of Fear requires a Wisdom saving throw which is not altered in any way.

We were talking about Wrathful Smite, which requires a Wisdom check (at disadvantage because of fear) to break free, not a Wisdom saving throw. Fear (the spell) is a different spell, with a different ending condition and its own niche. Polymorph (RAW) isn't better at crowd control than either of them.

[Hudsonian]

My 2 cents:
First I am not considering any of the following solutions: Horde vs 1 or 2 bbeg, dangerous arena (self harming), Likely hoods of failure, Spellcaster mooks, Leg. Res., or Mob training....... These are contentious, and boring (to me). Moving on.

Simply because a BBEG has been polymorphed does not mean that he loses his action. I personally like it when the "Harmless Monster" creates havoc by charging the enemy or it's friends because while it may have lost it's intelligence it does know that for some reason, it was EXTREMELY angry at the guys over there. I would also say that they still have the help action (seeing as how they are running around and getting under peoples feet). I really like the idea of a spell or two failing because there is an irascible fly repeatedly ramming into the face of the spell caster.

Another important aspect of the BBEG being polymorphed is that catching/trapping the small beastie is not guaranteed. Think about it, when was the last time you tried to catch an enraged bunny without causing it harm, in armor, with full hands, and a bad guy swinging a sword at you? Or when is the last time you tried to catch a fly and accidentally "reduced it's HP to 0".

Also, (if it is the BBEG) I would consider the option of Auto-Flee, fight another day. As soon as the BBEG is Polymorphed, scatter.... including the bbeg.

[MaxWilson]

Also, (if it is the BBEG) I would consider the option of Auto-Flee, fight another day. As soon as the BBEG is Polymorphed, scatter.... including the bbeg.

Certain types of BBEGs may lose face (and therefore political power) when forced to flee.

[Temperjoke]

Certain types of BBEGs may lose face (and therefore political power) when forced to flee.

Not much face left when you've been turned into a bunny in front of your minions. :smallbiggrin: Especially if one of your minions is a Starscream (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheStarscream) (tropes page warning)

[Kryx]

We were talking about Wrathful Smite, which requires a Wisdom check (at disadvantage because of fear) to break free, not a Wisdom saving throw. Fear (the spell) is a different spell, with a different ending condition and its own niche. Polymorph (RAW) isn't better at crowd control than either of them.
Ah, I see your point. Sorry I thought we jumped to Fear, but you meant Frightened.


Eyebite (6th level spell): On each of its turns, the frightened creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest and shortest available route, unless there is nowhere to move. If the target moves to a place at least 60 feet away from you where it can no longer see you, this effect ends.

Fear is the template I'd use. So replace the last sentence of Wrathful Smite with "If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn't have line of sight to you, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature."

[krugaan]

Polymorph can also be broken by allies, but the whole point of this thread is that it is illogical for allies to kill the crab assuming it'll turn back into their master without arcane knowledge of this specific spell.

I'll agree its a wee bit illogical, but polymorph is a class defining (one might say genre defining) ability of magic... so knowledge of it doesn't seem so farfetched to me.

As for other verisimilitude issues ... who's to say that ally who's not moving is hypnotic patterned and not, say, held?

"Ah, they're all entranced, just hit 'em once with your greataxe and move to the next one."

[MaxWilson]

Ah, I see your point. Sorry I thought we jumped to Fear, but you meant Frightened.

Eyebite (6th level spell): On each of its turns, the frightened creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest and shortest available route, unless there is nowhere to move. If the target moves to a place at least 60 feet away from you where it can no longer see you, this effect ends.

Fear is the template I'd use. So replace the last sentence of Wrathful Smite with "If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn't have line of sight to you, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature."

I didn't ask you how you'd nerf Wrathful Smite; I just corrected your reading of Wrathful Smite's duration so you could do the correct math to compare it to Polymorph.


Not much face left when you've been turned into a bunny in front of your minions. :smallbiggrin: Especially if one of your minions is a Starscream (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheStarscream) (tropes page warning)

Agreed, if you fail that save the battle for face is 60% lost already. Although if you're e.g. an Oathbreaker or something, you may be able to regain much of that lost face by ripping the enemy to shreds with your Divine Smites in bunny form.

Still, that doesn't mean every enemy will give up and rabbit. Which course is taken depends on roleplaying factors as much as tactical factors. I expect you'd agree.

[Hudsonian]

Although if you're e.g. an Oathbreaker or something, you may be able to regain much of that lost face by ripping the enemy to shreds with your Divine Smites in bunny form.

Still, that doesn't mean every enemy will give up and rabbit. Which course is taken depends on roleplaying factors as much as tactical factors. I expect you'd agree.

Oh MAN I love the idea of a fuzzy bunny smite! if it wasn't so entirely outside of RAW I would allow it. Actually.... I might would still allow it if one of my party came up with it on the spot.

I still think that my favorite way to deal with it is for the fuzzy wuzzy to get in on the action or somehow get itself hurt. I feel like a rabid weasel could pretty easily get itself killed by accident. Or it could completely eliminate AoE by the magic users and a hunters whirlwind.

[krugaan]

Oh MAN I love the idea of a fuzzy bunny smite! if it wasn't so entirely outside of RAW I would allow it. Actually.... I might would still allow it if one of my party came up with it on the spot.

I still think that my favorite way to deal with it is for the fuzzy wuzzy to get in on the action or somehow get itself hurt. I feel like a rabid weasel could pretty easily get itself killed by accident. Or it could completely eliminate AoE by the magic users and a hunters whirlwind.

Whoa whoa whoa, waitaminute...

...

People use whirlwind?

I kid, but really, whats the RAW on polymorphed creatures and what they do? I know the old creature is basically the new creature in every way except alignment and personality, but that seems to preclude the use of polymorph as a buff spell in almost all cases. Do we assume that "personality" includes traits like "knowing who is on your side" and "eating innocent civilians is bad"?

[RickAllison]

Whoa whoa whoa, waitaminute...

...

People use whirlwind?

I kid, but really, whats the RAW on polymorphed creatures and what they do? I know the old creature is basically the new creature in every way except alignment and personality, but that seems to preclude the use of polymorph as a buff spell in almost all cases. Do we assume that "personality" includes traits like "knowing who is on your side" and "eating innocent civilians is bad"?

Personality, by the PHB, tends to include alignment, bonds, traits, ideals, and flaws. Knowing who are your Allies would be a bond and the badness of eating innocents probably falls under ideals and/or alignment. Remember that you aren't restricted to the exact guidelines in the PHB, and that your personality aspects change to fit your development.

"But I'm a Chaotic Good T-Rex, I only eat bad people and non-sentients."
"I may be a Chaotic Evil T-Rex, but I know that I have forged a great friendship with Drakthon."

[Temperjoke]

Whoa whoa whoa, waitaminute...

...

People use whirlwind?

I kid, but really, whats the RAW on polymorphed creatures and what they do? I know the old creature is basically the new creature in every way except alignment and personality, but that seems to preclude the use of polymorph as a buff spell in almost all cases. Do we assume that "personality" includes traits like "knowing who is on your side" and "eating innocent civilians is bad"?

Well, I've always read it as your mind in a different body, with the actions that come as part of the new form being instinctual knowledge. At the same time, your new body doesn't have the muscle memory that comes from practicing casting spells or wielding weapons, which is why you can't use your skills.

EDIT: Also the buffs given by Polymorph aren't just for combat. I mean, you change someone into a flying form to rescue the both of you from falling from a great height, or into a large aquatic form when there isn't a ship convenient, or something specialized for the situation such as a wolf for tracking.

[MaxWilson]

I kid, but really, whats the RAW on polymorphed creatures and what they do? I know the old creature is basically the new creature in every way except alignment and personality, but that seems to preclude the use of polymorph as a buff spell in almost all cases. Do we assume that "personality" includes traits like "knowing who is on your side" and "eating innocent civilians is bad"?

RAW is totally ambiguous because it uses a term ("game statistics") without defining what it means. It clearly includes HP, Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha. Other than that it's basically up in the air. Some DMs, such as Mike Mearls (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/04/if-i-cast-polymorph-on-a-druid-character-can-he-use-wild-shape/) and myself, will still let you use certain class abilities (wildshape in Mearl's case) that don't rely on needing to be in human form.

Here's an Enworld poll from various DMs on which abilities they'd allow to function in Polymorphed (T-Rex) form: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460092-Poll-Polymorph-Shenanigans

Deflect Missiles is the least popular (0%). Empty Body is the most popular (23%), except for "None at all" which is somewhere around 60%. (Judging by comments in the thread, people used the "Other" option when they meant "None".)

There isn't a consensus; you can blame that on the wording of Polymorph. But there's a majority of DMs who prefer to just take the MM stat block and give it to you, and a minority who do something else. Ask your DM for his ruling.

[krugaan]

RAW is totally ambiguous because it uses a term ("game statistics") without defining what it means. It clearly includes HP, Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha. Other than that it's basically up in the air. Some DMs, such as Mike Mearls (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/04/if-i-cast-polymorph-on-a-druid-character-can-he-use-wild-shape/) and myself, will still let you use certain class abilities (wildshape in Mearl's case) that don't rely on needing to be in human form.

Here's an Enworld poll from various DMs on which abilities they'd allow to function in Polymorphed (T-Rex) form: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?460092-Poll-Polymorph-Shenanigans

Deflect Missiles is the least popular (0%). Empty Body is the most popular (23%), except for "None at all" which is somewhere around 60%. (Judging by comments in the thread, people used the "Other" option when they meant "None".)

There isn't a consensus; you can blame that on the wording of Polymorph. But there's a majority of DMs who prefer to just take the MM stat block and give it to you, and a minority who do something else. Ask your DM for his ruling.

Hah, I don't play with polymorph, I just use hypnotic pattern, lol.

The one time polymorph was cast it was by the BBEG, and I suggested whale to the DM. So I spent the entire fight as a whale. Was still pretty funny. I ended up blocking the passageway, and there was discussion on whether or not I should be reduced to make me less of a hindrance...

Eventually the DM decided they could climb over me while I lay there like a... Well, like a beached whale.

As for the other stuff, I think polymorphed PC's should be run almost like npcs. A trex should either attack whatever looks tastiest, looks biggest or smallest, or has dealt a large amount of damage to it, without tactical decisions like positioning or whatever. So if an enemy was illusioned somehow to look like a party member, the trex wouldn't attack it, for example.

Edit: if an enemy were "whalified" and his buddies tried to attack him to break the polymorph, I would totally have the whale attack back in retribution

[MaxWilson]

Hah, I don't play with polymorph, I just use hypnotic pattern, lol.

The one time polymorph was cast it was by the BBEG, and I suggested whale to the DM. So I spent the entire fight as a whale. Was still pretty funny. I ended up blocking the passageway, and there was discussion on whether or not I should be reduced to make me less of a hindrance...

Eventually the DM decided they could climb over me while I lay there like a... Well, like a beached whale.

As for the other stuff, I think polymorphed PC's should be run almost like npcs. A trex should either attack whatever looks tastiest, looks biggest or smallest, or has dealt a large amount of damage to it, without tactical decisions like positioning or whatever. So if an enemy was illusioned somehow to look like a party member, the trex wouldn't attack it, for example.

Edit: if an enemy were "whalified" and his buddies tried to attack him to break the polymorph, I would totally have the whale attack back in retribution

I gotta say, that sounds like a fun group to play with!

[krugaan]

I gotta say, that sounds like a fun group to play with!

Not gonna lie, it's pretty awesome. Gourmet food (friend is a chef), alcohol, and Dnd. 3/4ths of the players are new and the DM likes giving us retarded magical items, but we don't use them very effectively and he overloads the encounters anyway.

I was a sharpshooting dual-wielding pistol bard, but that turned out to be fairly broken with improved invisibility, so I requested a self nerf and got rid of sharpshooter for some other feat.

Moon druid got a special staff with extra forms (like young white dragon, etc) and can turn into any magical beast we can kill.

Stuff like that. 3/4ths of the players are terrible roleplayers too, so we just brute force our way through dungeons (although we did sneak through some at earlier levels).

Running joke is that the moon druid is supposed to eat all the bodies so we don't leave any behind to find, but to date she has refused.

[krugaan]

Suggestion can also be a no-save CC for a much cheaper spell slot, although it is more difficult to use, as well, with harsher restrictions, but theoretically *less* solutions.