Mentor teaching skills and abilties he doesn't himself possess?

[The Insanity]

Would you be okay with a character who studied and experienced many different techniques, skills and abilities, although only the theories, but never actually practiced them himself, be able to teach them to others?
To put it in mechanical terms - lets say, as an example, that we have a high level Fighter, an old veteran of many battles. Should he be able to train someone in the Warblade class? If Warblade is sufficiently similar, what about a Warlord (PoW)? Or a Stalker (PoW)?

[OldTrees1]

Yes, I can easily imagine such.

I have seen real life examples of how someone can all but preform a task but is lacking physically rather that lacking knowledge. As such they can pass on the knowledge to someone with the physical talent.

So yes, I can imagine an "old warrior" that is passing on their foe's school of fighting (as a result of years of observation) to a young pupil despite the "old warrior" not having adopted that school of fighting themselves. Passing on an old rival's or an old friend's would also make sense.

[Troacctid]

I don't see why not. That fighter dumped enough cross-class skill ranks in Martial Lore that he probably knows more about warblade fighting techniques than actual warblades.

I mean, as a DM, I would just stat the warblade mentor as a warblade, because duh, but the scenario you're laying out sounds plausible enough.

[Darth Ultron]

I'd say no. You can't teach a skill you don't have, that is simple enough. And this is even more true of physical skills.

For example, in the vast majority of trades, an apprentice learns from a master how has been doing the job for decades. They don't just grab a person off the street, give them a book to read, and then say ok now teach what was in the book to someone.

[Sayt]

Kinda. It depends. If you don't know how to initiate Regal Blade, you obviously can't drill someone in it's use. But you can expound upon the theoretical basis behind a school of maneuvers with sufficient knowledge (Martial). And let the students develop something like Regal Blade.

For instance, I don't know how to make a rifle, but I know the abstract principles of ballistics and engineering, and might be able to give an (unimaginative) engineer an idea and let them work out the details.

[BowStreetRunner]

There is an old saying: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

It's not unheard of for a teacher to be better at understanding principles and theories than at actually implementing them. But most of the examples of that which I've actually encountered stem from the fact that in many cases you don't have to really understand what you're doing, you just have to be able to do it. How many birds really understand the physics behind their ability to fly? So the people who are doing a thing well usually have good instincts, intuition, reflexes, hand-eye-coordination, etc. while those who teach are highly intelligent and have deep understanding of the concepts behind something, just not the talent to do it themselves.

For game-mechanic purposes I would treat a situation like this the same as if the player were trying to learn from a book. The instructor in this case isn't going to be able to show them and have them copy the way someone with the actual skill could. Instead they will have to explain in much the same way a text would. So it is really an oral lesson standing in for a written lesson, but otherwise the player is actually working out the rest on their own.

[Crake]

There is an old saying: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Teachers like to add to that "And those who can't teach, teach gym" :smalltongue:

[TheCrowing1432]

*Squints*

Is this about cheeseing the Apprentice feat?

[ekarney]

I'd say it's feasible, for example he may have seen an orc do a crazy body slam once but the master lacks the physical size to pull it off in a real combat situation, or he saw a cool drow fighting school but lacks the dexterity to do it as quickly as them and so on so forth.

[Eldariel]

This idea actually occurs in many martial arts-related media. The master of any given art is aware of some technique that's often the "ultimate technique" or whatever and can instruct the apprentice in how to perform it but the apprentice will have to breach the barrier and actually master the technique themselves. This is commonly the moment where the apprentice surpasses the master (perhaps with the ritual duel where the apprentice beats or kills his master depending on the art) and moves on to delve deeper into the way and take his own apprentices.

Thus, a high level Fighter having fought a thousand battles perhaps even against a Warblade or a dozen, but even without such experience, could probably tutor a prospective Warblade in at least the principal ideas of the techniques. Thus the Fighter could help the Warblade along to get started and pick up the way at which point the Warblade will then begin mastering the more complex techniques themself, perhaps showing his progress to his master and the master giving some ideas on how to perfect any given technique. Practical battle techniques, efficient movement, muscle control and such are things a Fighter should be well acquainted with even if they don't know the specific technique being researched so they should be able to help with developing any given ability.

[Troacctid]

Okay, I looked it up. The DMG2 roles for mentorship actually have prerequisites for being a mentor. You need to have 8 ranks in two key skills associated with your mentor category. However, you officially do not need to share a class with your apprentice; there's just a bonus if you do. So there you have it—it's all about skill ranks, not class levels.

[ekarney]

Okay, I looked it up.

Why didn't the rest of us think of that? :smallbiggrin: