How do you DMs handle Divination and Augury?

[CantigThimble]

So, to keep a long story relatively short I've been playing a Knowledge Cleric in a campaign involving some rather complex planning. We planned a major battle but halfway through there was a major reveal and it turned out someone had been manipulating us, our allies and our enemies all along and we are now in very deep trouble. However after the session we realized that several of the Divination and Augury spells I had cast really should have given us hints of what was coming. Basically our DM had panicked a little bit and used some overly creative interpretations of the spells because he didn't want to give away too much.

We talked it over, he apologized and promised not to be as liberal with his interpretations in the future. I suggested I give him more time to come up with answers for divination since the spell leaves room for very nuanced answers but none of us are very good at improv; we operate a lot better with time to plan.

So does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with these spells? They have the potential to blow campaign plots wide open if you ask the right questions, even by accident. I don't want to break the game, he doesn't want his game to get broken, but seeing the future is a big part of being a cleric of Savras the All-Seeing and I want it to work. (I gave up deception for this!)

Descriptions of Augury and Divination from SRD:
By casting gem-inlaid sticks, rolling dragon bones, laying out ornate cards, or employing some other divining tool, you receive an omen from an otherworldly entity about the results of a specific course of action that you plan to take within the next 30 minutes. The DM chooses from the following possible omens:

Weal, for good results
Woe, for bad results
Weal and woe, for both good and bad results
Nothing, for results that aren’t especially good or bad
The spell doesn’t take into account any possible circumstances that might change the outcome, such as the casting of additional spells or the loss or gain of a companion. If you cast the spell two or more times before completing your next long rest, there is a cumulative 25 percent chance for each casting after the first that you get a random reading. The DM makes this roll in secret.
Your magic and an offering put you in contact with a god or a god's servants. you ask a single question concerning a specific goal, event or activity to occur within 7 days. The DM offers a truthful reply. the reply might be a short phrase, a cryptic rhyme, or an omen.

The spell doesn't take into account any possible circumstances that might change the outcome, such as the casting of additional spells or the loss or gain of a companion.

If you cast the spell two or more times before finishing your next long rest, there is a cumulative 25 percent chance for each casting after the first that you get a random reading. The DM makes this roll in secret.

[MrStabby]

Even the gods don't know everything. You should maybe have got back some less clear answers.

Sometimes circumstances change. A loyal ally may betray their friends on more of a whim (or due to external influence).

Anyone important enough to feel they may be subject to divination magic should probably invest in seeming or non-detection spells, or a magic item that does the same.

[CantigThimble]

Even the gods don't know everything. You should maybe have got back some less clear answers.

Sometimes circumstances change. A loyal ally may betray their friends on more of a whim (or due to external influence).

Anyone important enough to feel they may be subject to divination magic should probably invest in seeming or non-detection spells, or a magic item that does the same.

I'm not sure you quite understand what happened. I should probably give the specific examples. Our patron was going to negotiate with a potential ally in secret, the meeting was actually an ambush and a doppleganger took their place. Our patron did escape (barely alive), though we didn't find that out until after things had gone very wrong. I cast augury asking if they should go to the meeting and I got 'Weal and Woe'. The reasoning being that our patron could survive the ambush and then they would know what was up.

I also asked "What will be the biggest obstacle to our planned invasion?" in divination I got "Everyone has allies", referring to the reinforcements that would be aiding our enemies. Not at all mentioning the fact that halfway through half our forces would turn out to be traitors and we would be forced to ally with the remainder of our original enemies to have any chance of survival.

[MrStabby]

So in this case, your God may not have known treachery was planned. Treachery may only have become certain after the spell was cast.

[CantigThimble]

So in this case, your God may not have known treachery was planned. Treachery may only have become certain after the spell was cast.

My DM is in complete agreement with me that he should have given different answers, I suggested that he might houserule the spells so they operated differently, as long as I knew what I was getting when I cast them and he refused, saying that he would adjust his answers to reflect the spell descriptions instead.

Out of curiosity what would you give players who cast augury or divination in those contexts? Would it be a worthwhile spell to cast, in any situation, if I were to cast it while you were DMing?

[Shining Wrath]

It depends upon the spell. Some spells, e.g., Commune, are very explicit that the caster is contacting Someone. There's a mind, and a personality, on the other end of the spell, and therefore the possibility of an agenda. You will in general be talking to someone of your own alignment and commensurate with your level; a level 9 cleric is unlikely to be speaking to a deity, or even a Solar, but a level 20 one might. This means that a level 20 CE caster may very well commune with Demogorgon or Orcus, while a level 20 LE caster might be talking to Asmodeus; which is to say, you are talking to someone who does have plans, and they include you. And a CE deity or demon lord is under no compulsion or obligation to answer truthfully or even sanely.

I also rule that the deities are, relatively speaking, weak and fallible. This was originally to allow for orcs and gnolls and so on that weren't the expected alignment; their creator wanted them all to be, e.g., CE, but "missed" sometimes. Same thing for dwarves and elves. However, that world-building assumption carries over to Divination.

[Armored Walrus]

In this circumstance I think I probably would have answered "woe" to your augury. But I think the divination answer was solid. "everyone has allies" including your enemies, and those allies proved to be the biggest obstacle to your invasion. If you want the DM to have straight up said "your allies will betray you" then I think that really goes against what that spell is supposed to do.

[Joe the Rat]

Augury: Weal and Woe is a fair read for dangerous situations with a good payoff. No response means it doesn't matter.

Vague and cryptic responses are a good fallback. Not a great fallback, but a good one. "Your friends are not as they seem" can mean all sorts of different things.

The future is mutable. you can align events to fit what you have given the players through divinations, or you can note this is where the future has been changed, and you are now down a different path.

You might houserule a "divination halo," where if within a specific time period circumstances have changed to where the divination is no longer accurate, the caster feels the break(but not the new result) . This does extend the power of the spells some, but also gives you a little wiggle to where the DM can say "the future has changed" and give you an update... if you ask.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure you quite understand what happened. I should probably give the specific examples. Our patron was going to negotiate with a potential ally in secret, the meeting was actually an ambush and a doppleganger took their place. Our patron did escape (barely alive), though we didn't find that out until after things had gone very wrong. I cast augury asking if they should go to the meeting and I got 'Weal and Woe'. The reasoning being that our patron could survive the ambush and then they would know what was up.

I also asked "What will be the biggest obstacle to our planned invasion?" in divination I got "Everyone has allies", referring to the reinforcements that would be aiding our enemies. Not at all mentioning the fact that halfway through half our forces would turn out to be traitors and we would be forced to ally with the remainder of our original enemies to have any chance of survival.

For the ambush... I can see "Weal and Woe" depending on the tradeoffs, but I'd probably just call that Woe.

For "biggest obstacle" I'd just say "treachery." My reasoning: the treachery hurt you more than the enemy reinforcements because it simultaneously depletes your forces AND gives the enemy forces in a devastating position. If I knew the divination attempt was coming I might find a way to word "treachery" in a more interesting way, e.g. "the serpent's tongue drips ancient venom into an old-accustomed ear," if the treachery is due to an old, hidden grudge. Main thing though is just to give an answer without worrying about how it will interfere with my "plot". I've had plots derailed by PCs before, and that's fine. Either it leads them to a quick victory and a new story, or it leads to a different story. In this case it might become a game of high-stakes diplomacy and negotiation as you try to identify, arrest and replace the treacherous leader in the few hours before the battle starts, without setting off a civil war in your own ranks.

Contact Other Plane is actually more problematic for me than Augury/Divination, because it requires deciding what the contacted entity is likely to actually know. With Augury/Divination I just assume that the answers come from the ancient universal "supercomputer" which runs the magic system built into the universe. I.e. straight from the DM, no roleplaying required.

[Safety Sword]

I'm not sure you quite understand what happened. I should probably give the specific examples. Our patron was going to negotiate with a potential ally in secret, the meeting was actually an ambush and a doppleganger took their place. Our patron did escape (barely alive), though we didn't find that out until after things had gone very wrong. I cast augury asking if they should go to the meeting and I got 'Weal and Woe'. The reasoning being that our patron could survive the ambush and then they would know what was up.

I also asked "What will be the biggest obstacle to our planned invasion?" in divination I got "Everyone has allies", referring to the reinforcements that would be aiding our enemies. Not at all mentioning the fact that halfway through half our forces would turn out to be traitors and we would be forced to ally with the remainder of our original enemies to have any chance of survival.

"Everyone has allies" could allude to the fact that your enemies have allies that you think are only your allies.

Depending on the timing of the doppleganger replacing the key figure, the reading may have been accurate. Or as others have said, perhaps that fact was unknown to the power that be.

[CantigThimble]

"Everyone has allies" could allude to the fact that your enemies have allies that you think are only your allies.

Depending on the timing of the doppleganger replacing the key figure, the reading may have been accurate. Or as others have said, perhaps that fact was unknown to the power that be.

Look, I'm really not interested in derailing the thread with a discussion of how the answers could have been justified. I know straight from the horse's mouth that they were not. I mentioned to my DM that the answers I had gotten seemed a bit odd considering what we found out later and he basically went 'oh crap' and apologized for being overprotective of the plot he had planned.

I didn't browbeat him into this and I'm not trying to use this thread for ammunition in some kind of 'Oh Look I was right, the internet agrees' argument. We're both mature people and good friends, we worked this out like reasonable people already.

What I'm looking for is advice on how these spells can serve their purpose to the greatest benefit of the game. He doesn't want to make my character's abilities useless and I don't want to force him to give me his campaign plots on a silver platter.

If you read the spell descriptions, you may notice that it says nothing about the unspecified otherworldly entity you are contacting not understanding the situation. Those spells pretty clearly assume that whatever you're contacting knows as much about the future as the DM does. If the DM decides that the otherworldly entity can't predict the future any better than your party can then the spells serve little/no purpose.

Additionally, even if the spells did work that way and depended on the god you worshiped then it still wouldn't be relevant to me because my character worships Savras the All-Seeing, Lord of Divination and Prophecy. His portfolio includes Fate, Divination and Truth in addition misinformation and deception is the root of all evil according to his core dogma. If a right answer to a question about the future exists then he is the one who has it.

[MaxWilson]

Look, I'm really not interested in derailing the thread with a discussion of how the answers could have been justified. I know straight from the horse's mouth that they were not. I mentioned to my DM that the answers I had gotten seemed a bit odd considering what we found out later and he basically went 'oh crap' and apologized for being overprotective of the plot he had planned.

I didn't browbeat him into this and I'm not trying to use this thread for ammunition in some kind of 'Oh Look I was right, the internet agrees' argument. We're both mature people and good friends, we worked this out like reasonable people already.

What I'm looking for is advice on how these spells can serve their purpose to the greatest benefit of the game. He doesn't want to make my character's abilities useless and I don't want to force him to give me his campaign plots on a silver platter.

To reiterate:

You can build more robust plots that don't have a single point of failure. Then if the PCs happen to ask a smart question at the right time, hooray! now they're moved on from Phase I: Discovering the Traitor to Phase II: Exposing/Arresting the Traitor.

Another interesting twist would be to have a false priest frame the PCs as traitors via Divination.

Two more points worth mentioning:

(1) Augury has a fairly short time limit. It can only foretell events that will happen within the next 30 minutes, so it's fairly narrowly tactical in its application. "If I open this book and peer within, will it be to my weal or woe?"

(2) Divination answers can be in plain speech, but can also be in a riddle or an omen. If you ask, "What will be the greatest obstacle to our success in this battle? Send me a sign", and General Thorn's messenger bursts into the room with a message, spattering mud all over the place in the process... well, that could be an omen, right? It's ambiguous enough (was that really the omen?) to still have some fun with, but it really does give the players useful information because they know about Chekhov's Gun. If you do it right, you could even view the spell as sort of an Invoke Plot Hook spell.

In short, the DM can view the spell as an opportunity to build more sophisticated stories.

[CantigThimble]

Huh, I hadn't thought of making it unclear what the omen was and what just coincidence. (Or using people as omens) That is a really cool idea.

[R.Shackleford]

You call a middle management angel/demon/whatever and have to deal with someone who hates their job.

Or they just don't exist.