First Boss fight, (To Hard?)

[ShirAhn]

So, my party is about to have there first boss fight with an old friend of one of the party members who turned undead. I created the following monster. I hope to provide a really tough long battle but one they can win when they work together. My experience as a DM isn't all that great so I hope you lot can give some advice on the encounter.

Basicly the dwarf uses his magical two handed weapon to hit his foes with, and every now and then he can summon/revive undead peasents around him. The party consists of 5 players all level 3 and full health/spellslots.

They have:
a cleric (the old friend with access to radiant damage)
a paladin (also Radiant)
a Ranger (Hunter)
a Wizard
a Sorcerer

**EDIT** I have updated the monstersheet. Please note that I cannot adjust the amount of legendary actions the monster has in the sheet. He has only 1 per round now
http://i.imgur.com/NupY4mY.png

Any tips will be greatly appreciated.

[MrStabby]

What level is the party and how many people?

Edit: also, does the party have magical weapons?

[ShirAhn]

What level is the party and how many people?

Just edited the post, I knew I forgot something haha :smallbiggrin:

[Alerad]

Looks good to me. Although the damage nigh be a little to much for CR 5 (one regular attack + up to 3 legendary). Better limit it to two attacks or so. Also, 3rd level characters are not too weak, but sometimes AC 18 can get quite frustrating trying to hit. If they have access to Bless should be ok though.

What kind of undead can he create? Ghoul, ghast, zombie?

[MrStabby]

This looks pretty tough for a brawl.

At level 3 there isn't likely to be plate armour or better so +8 to hit is a big deal. AC 18 isn't easy to hit either.

If he plays defensively backed into a corner but summoning unread the party may use a lot of resources before Even reaching him. If, by the end of combat the paladin is out of smites then those legendary saves could keep this guy in play a long time.

On the other hand you have both a cleric and a paladin on the team. A paladin is the best thing ever for this type of fight for massive nova damage and bonus vs unread. The cleric is able to channel divinity to manage the summoned unread if they get too much. If the party is happy to kite the guy and there is space, it may be very easy - but I assume terrain limits that.

I think it is very hard for level 3, I think it is helped by party composition though. I would still be tempted to tweak I'd downwards though, maybe drop ac or cut a legendary action.

[Gastronomie]

When you're unsure if a fight is balanced, the best way is to actually test-play, with you controlling both the PCs and the enemies. It gives you extra ideas for not only "what would make this fight more balanced", but also "more interesting".

[ShirAhn]

Looks good to me. Although the damage nigh be a little to much for CR 5 (one regular attack + up to 3 legendary). Better limit it to two attacks or so. Also, 3rd level characters are not too weak, but sometimes AC 18 can get quite frustrating trying to hit. If they have access to Bless should be ok though.

What kind of undead can he create? Ghoul, ghast, zombie?

Just regular zombies, I was thinking there would be 2 corpses nearby that he can revive during the fight. Basicly so the ranged attackers have something to keep them on their feet instead of letting them blast away until the end of time

http://i.imgur.com/J3WuErZ.png

Thank you all for the advice, I will lower the armor and attack a bit (the undead corruption has lowered his speeds and ability to block and fight efficiently).
I will also adjust the legendary actions to two.

I love the idea of just play testing the scenario thank you all very much.

I added the rewards of the fight below. Should make them happy. I enjoy making small references to populair TV shows/Movies in my campaign :smallsmile:.

http://i.imgur.com/jlUbFUa.png

and

http://i.imgur.com/atAmu9U.png

[MrFahrenheit]

I'd axe the legendary saves and reduce the +8 to hit down a bit. On his own, the party could probably handle the encounter with surprising ease. But as soon as you throw in minions, the CR really makes sense.

[ShirAhn]

I'd axe the legendary saves and reduce the +8 to hit down a bit. On his own, the party could probably handle the encounter with surprising ease. But as soon as you throw in minions, the CR really makes sense.

I feel the resistances are useful as a fail save. Sometimes a creature can get infinite crowd controlled and i feel that takes away some of the challenge. This way I can use them as a "get out of jail free card".

I toned the +8 down to a +six.

[Cybren]

+13 athletics? That's pretty inpressive. Is be going to be grabbing the PCs and using his legendary actions to summon minions to divert their attention if they try to wail on him with magic/radiant damage?

[MrFahrenheit]

I feel the resistances are useful as a fail save. Sometimes a creature can get infinite crowd controlled and i feel that takes away some of the challenge. This way I can use them as a "get out of jail free card".

I toned the +8 down to a +six.

I agree with your assessment on the fail safes...just not at this CR.

[Knaight]

This looks pretty nasty - getting up to four hits with the hammer per round is substantial, and that's before considering all the other abilities.

[Gurifu]

Remember that you can give out Inspiration whenever you want. Inspiration is a player-usable resource that is entirely under the control of the DM, which makes it possible to moderate the difficulty of a fight without cheapening the players' victory by changing the monster or having allies swoop in. I'll sometimes give out ten or more Inspirations during a single tough fight.

When I DM I like to have a page with short versions of everybody's character traits on them (Ideals, Flaws, etc) and call them out frequently during tough fights whenever players are acting or speaking in accord with them, giving Inspiration for them - along with memorable or colorful decisions that they make during the fight itself. In my experience, within a few turns the players always catch on and start adjusting their behavior to get more Inspiration... and accidentally having a fun time role-playing along the way.

Use tokens or cards for inspiration. Everybody likes getting handed a physical thing, it makes it easy to track who has inspiration, it helps you remember that Inspiration is a thing you can give, and it's less disruptive of spoken play.

[furryblueelf]

His Doomhammer damage is listed as 2d8+4, surely with it being a magical weapon (+1) and the 20 strength it should be 2d8+6?

This may make it even nastier.

[ClintACK]

I'd second the recommendation to play test it on your own. You don't have to do anything as complicated as the real battle -- you'll get a sense of how hard the battle is just by rolling a few rounds of attacks.

Run a few scenarios -- like how many rounds can the Paladin tank Thorik's four hammer attacks per round? How many skeletons/zombies can the party drop in a round? How effective will the Cleric's Turn Undead be against the minions? How much damage *can* the party do to Thorik in one round, with the Paladin smiting and the casters blasting?

Thorik's resistance to nonmagical attacks could be important -- I assume a 3rd level party isn't kitted out with +1 weapons yet. Is the Paladin Oath of Devotion? Sacred Weapon could make a huge difference. Does the Ranger have a way to make his bow attacks magical? Did the Wizard take Ray of Frost as his only attack cantrip? Is the Sorcerer a blaster or an illusion/charm/party-face build? Lots of small factors could make a *huge* difference in the difficulty of this fight.



Just regular zombies, I was thinking there would be 2 corpses nearby that he can revive during the fight. Basicly so the ranged attackers have something to keep them on their feet instead of letting them blast away until the end of time...

Zombies are slow and have no ranged attacks -- maybe use skeletons instead? They're faster and can use bows. And they'll go down pretty quickly, soaking up some of Thorik's Legendary Actions to reanimate them.


His Doomhammer damage is listed as 2d8+4, surely with it being a magical weapon (+1) and the 20 strength it should be 2d8+6?

This may make it even nastier.

Except it's 1d10+6... which is about the same as 2d8+4, but the 2d8 will be less swingy.

[ShirAhn]

Remember that you can give out Inspiration whenever you want. Inspiration is a player-usable resource that is entirely under the control of the DM, which makes it possible to moderate the difficulty of a fight without cheapening the players' victory by changing the monster or having allies swoop in. I'll sometimes give out ten or more Inspirations during a single tough fight.

When I DM I like to have a page with short versions of everybody's character traits on them (Ideals, Flaws, etc) and call them out frequently during tough fights whenever players are acting or speaking in accord with them, giving Inspiration for them - along with memorable or colorful decisions that they make during the fight itself. In my experience, within a few turns the players always catch on and start adjusting their behavior to get more Inspiration... and accidentally having a fun time role-playing along the way.

Use tokens or cards for inspiration. Everybody likes getting handed a physical thing, it makes it easy to track who has inspiration, it helps you remember that Inspiration is a thing you can give, and it's less disruptive of spoken play.

I love this thank you, about the legendary actions, the tool I to create the monster template won't let me adjust the amount of legendary actions. And just because a monster has them, it does not meen I have to use them right?

[ShirAhn]

I'd second the recommendation to play test it on your own. You don't have to do anything as complicated as the real battle -- you'll get a sense of how hard the battle is just by rolling a few rounds of attacks.

Run a few scenarios -- like how many rounds can the Paladin tank Thorik's four hammer attacks per round? How many skeletons/zombies can the party drop in a round? How effective will the Cleric's Turn Undead be against the minions? How much damage *can* the party do to Thorik in one round, with the Paladin smiting and the casters blasting?

Thorik's resistance to nonmagical attacks could be important -- I assume a 3rd level party isn't kitted out with +1 weapons yet. Is the Paladin Oath of Devotion? Sacred Weapon could make a huge difference. Does the Ranger have a way to make his bow attacks magical? Did the Wizard take Ray of Frost as his only attack cantrip? Is the Sorcerer a blaster or an illusion/charm/party-face build? Lots of small factors could make a *huge* difference in the difficulty of this fight.




Zombies are slow and have no ranged attacks -- maybe use skeletons instead? They're faster and can use bows. And they'll go down pretty quickly, soaking up some of Thorik's Legendary Actions to reanimate them.



Except it's 1d10+6... which is about the same as 2d8+4, but the 2d8 will be less swingy.


I will swap towards skeletons for the rezzing of the undead, thank you for this. I also just copied the attacks from a other monster. I will also adjust this so he also uses 1D10 to attack. I will make Give him 18str so his attack bonus should be a total of +5 (+4 from strength and +1 from the weapon).

Thank you for the great advice.

[MrStabby]

So I think the right difficulty for genuine boss encounters should be that the players are unlikely to die. This doesn't mean they are certain to win, they may have to retreat.

I tend to play it too safe for my encounters but the best ones have been when they have been over the top hard and the players have risen to the challenge. Those epic fights worthy of closing a story arc.

[Waar]

There is no way that thing is CR 5, it is quite a lot higher, even if you ignore resistances, immunities and the radiant vulnerability it has a cr of about 9 i think, so please take that into account.


Edit: In case it isn't obvious the Legendary actions and Legendary resistance alters the CR a lot.

[ShirAhn]

There is no way that thing is CR 5, it is quite a lot higher, even if you ignore resistances, immunities and the radiant vulnerability it has a cr of about 9 i think, so please take that into account.


Edit: In case it isn't obvious the Legendary actions and Legendary resistance alters the CR a lot.

Thank you for your comment, I actually don't really know exactly what CR means except that CR 5 is recommended for my party size/level. I will reduce both the legendary action and resistance to one. I feel that I need atleast one resistance to make the fight interesting. Otherwise the party will probably kill the chap before he can make a swing.