Low Budget Characters

[Ethernil]

We are playing dnd 3.5 with a dm that is very stringy when it comes to character wealth. Not only are magic shops VERY limited but drops are utter crap most of the time. I believe we run on about 30%-40% of the wbl rules. The monsters and enemy npcs are fully geared powered though. So i m looking for classes - builds for the 4 archetypes (beatstick, arcane caster, divine caster, waste of space erh i meant skillfull character) using only wotc books, no dragon magazine, no dungeon magazine and no psionics. Oh it was even hard finding wands - scrolls of low lvl spells i wanted as a lvl 12 rogue to give you an idea.
This is the last chance we give this dm as he is a total douchebag and is houseruling the sheet out of the game to our disadvantage. He has done most common gm mistakes but thats another topic.

[Pugwampy]

I assume you are not allowed to rob the corpses the fully geared enemies ?


Budget heroes ? I think the best hero would be a monk if you have good AB points .

Others who dont need too much to thrive would be , Barbarian , Sorcerer , Rogue , Healer and Warmage . Very effective with minimum gear .



waste of space erh i meant skillfull character

.....and then the DM wants to try out a short adventure mod

[sleepyphoenixx]

You'll want to have a caster in every role if possible. The reasoning is simple - the game expects the players to have access to certain abilities and numbers at various points, and you won't get them from gear.
Magic can substitute for most required items, but a non-caster that can't afford a magic weapon, relevant armor, flight item, Death Ward, Mind Blank etc. is just out of luck (and likely dead soon).

For a beatstick i'd suggest a Ruby Knight Vindicator, Sacred Fist or just a Druid. Prestige Paladin, Knight of the Raven and Ordained Champion also fit well into this role.
An arcane gish like a Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion or Jade Phoenix Mage may also work but is generally more fragile and takes a while to come into its own.

The skillmonkey role can be filled by a variety of builds. A Beguiler, Unseen Seer, Cloistered Cleric (with Kobold domain) or Factotum/Chameleon all get enough skills to cover that and also get enough other stuff to contribute when skills are not helpful (mostly combat).

The arcane caster role should be filled by a Wizard - Sorcerers and Wu Jen just don't get enough versatility in their spell selection imo, and in a low-wealth game you're going to need all the spells you can get. Prestige classes are mostly standard wizard fare, but a special mention should be made for the War Weaver - he's going to be invaluable with his party-wide buffing.
You can combine that to taste with Mage of the Arcane Order, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Archmage, Incantatrix etc.

The divine caster role can either be another (Cloistered) Cleric or an Archivist. Druids really fit better into the beatstick or 5th man role imo and Favored Souls have the same problem as sorcerers. Instead of the melee-focus of a beatstick cleric look for PrCs that focus on casting. Dweomerkeeper is awesome, Sacred Exorcist is a must for Archivists (for DMM), Runecaster can be very useful if you have time to craft, Church Inquisitor & Divine Defiance will make for an awesome counterspeller and finally there's a dip into Contemplative for a 3rd (or 4th) domain.

[avr]

No, no monks. They need gear more than most. That goes double for rogues.

The characters who can get by with less are full 9-level spellcasters. Instead of a non-spellcasting beatstick get a summoning caster for example, or a self-buffing gish. A beguiler can cast his or her own invisibility where a rogue must use scrolls/wands. A good sorcerer build is a decent money-free arcane caster, true. Clerics don't need to buy scrolls to cure obscure status conditions and are probably the best divine casters when the money's tight.

What level range are you looking at?

[Krazzman]

I think Incarnum can do without magic items quite well... elsewise every fullcaster afaik can do without that much money too...

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think Incarnum can do without magic items quite well... elsewise every fullcaster afaik can do without that much money too...

Kind of, but not really. It's true that soulmelds can cover a lot of necessary stuff, but not really all at once.
Even a level 20 Incarnate or Totemist only gets 5 chakra binds after all, so you still need to fill some necessities with items or magic.

There are a few good meldshaper-theurges though, so it's certainly doable. Soulmelds and their all-day nature combine pretty well with spells to increase your endurance in a low-resource game.
Soulcaster Incarnates make for good skillmonkeys while a Totemist-based Sapphire Hierarch is a pretty great divine gish with a lot of natural attacks.
A Soul Manifester Ardent is best imo but the OP said no psionics.

[Troacctid]

Druid is the best at basically all the stuff you listed and basically doesn't need any items at all.

[Zaq]

Kind of, but not really. It's true that soulmelds can cover a lot of necessary stuff, but not really all at once.
Even a level 20 Incarnate or Totemist only gets 5 chakra binds after all, so you still need to fill some necessities with items or magic.

There are a few good meldshaper-theurges though, so it's certainly doable. Soulmelds and their all-day nature combine pretty well with spells to increase your endurance in a low-resource game.
Soulcaster Incarnates make for good skillmonkeys while a Totemist-based Sapphire Hierarch is a pretty great divine gish with a lot of natural attacks.
A Soul Manifester Ardent is best imo but the OP said no psionics.

A lot of it is level-dependent, of course, but I'm still on the side that feels like meldshapers are less item-dependent than more mundane classes are. They aren't full casters, but no one is saying that they are. The fact that bound melds take up item slots isn't the only reason why they're less item-dependent than normal (though it does contribute). Mostly it's the fact that soulmelds can cover a lot of the same ground as important magic items can. Also, it should be remembered that while I agree that you aren't going to have enough binds to fill all your item slots every day, a key feature of meldshapers is their versatility, so while you may have a few binds that are effectively locked in place, you aren't necessarily going to have the same chakra slots filled with binds day after day, so it's still in a meldshaper's interest to pick their items more carefully than a non-meldshaper would.

They're obviously going to do better with items than without items (even a Druid, who arguably needs the fewest items in the game, is still going to have enough of a wishlist that Vow of Poverty is usually not a great bargain from a power standpoint), but I still feel like meldshapers are going to do better in wealth-poor environments than most non-casters are. (Though of course full casters are probably your best bet.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd go with a beguiler/rainbow servant, wu jen/incantatrix/spellguard of silverymoon, a druid, and a cleric 1/wizard/dweomerkeeper, all with Vow of Poverty. This is basically a set-up for a lower-level version of Team Solar - it works from level 13. The wu jen uses body outside body to persist stuff, and the whole party shares buffs with a chained polymorph into symbionts. Unlike Team Solar, you need to recast the polymorph once for each person sharing buffs, but that's okay - use Cooperative Metamagic to get the chaining without taking up precious 7ths.

[Gildedragon]

May I suggest an artificer (with talismans of XP sharing), a wizard*-shadowcraft mage, a crusader-cleric-rkv, and a factotum/warblade Or hellfire warlock/binder

*If dragon compendium (published by wotc) is allowed: use sha'ir instead

[sleepyphoenixx]

A lot of it is level-dependent, of course, but I'm still on the side that feels like meldshapers are less item-dependent than more mundane classes are. They aren't full casters, but no one is saying that they are. The fact that bound melds take up item slots isn't the only reason why they're less item-dependent than normal (though it does contribute). Mostly it's the fact that soulmelds can cover a lot of the same ground as important magic items can.

That's true of course, but "doing better than most mundanes without magic items" means about as much as "more useful than a core-only monk".
It's factually true, but it doesn't mean they're actually doing well without magical gear.
Not that most classes do. Druids are really a big exception on that one.
A certain amount of power-from-gear is just expected by the game.

You can cover a great part of the "necessary items" list with soulmelds, but you usually get the required binds later than you'd like and you'll constantly have to juggle which to actually bind every day while still trying to do something offensively with your soulmelds too. It would be a lot more doable if Extra Chakra Bind wasn't an epic feat.

all with Vow of Poverty.

Normally i'd disagree vehemently with anyone suggesting VoP, but in this case i think it'd be hilarious.
Sure, it's weaker than using items. But if your DM won't give you items anyway you might as well. And if he's doing it consciously to be a jerk the look on his face should be great.

[eggynack]

Yeah, druid is the best at not having items. Wizards can compensate for a lack of items with personal ability, but they need at least some cash for spells to hit their peak (though an easy bake wizard can get around that a bit), clerics have the compensation effect and also no price on spells, but they have no particular desire to avoid items, and druids have both the compensation for item lacking and the ability to act at full capacity without spending, but they also have a desire to not use items, because wild shape disincentivizes it. And, on top of that, VoP synergizes super well with them, because they get the best value out of exalted feats. The combination is such that VoP goes from actively horrible to just kinda bad on them, and with a lot of forces acting against the use of items, VoP might actually move to kinda good. I have a whole section of my handbook devoted to the archetype, and this is really the place for it. Like, it's possible that the items you'd be able to purchase would be better if you could really pick them out, in spite of the low quantity of money, but it sounds like you don't have much selection, and enough money would be better too, maybe even without selection, but missing out on quality and quantity alike hits hard.

[Gildedragon]

Sadly easybake wizard isn't an option (eidetic spellcaster being a no-go) but you can kinda sorta approximate it with going into geometer asap and scribing spells into all your gear (clothes, body, weapons, armor, etc...)

Another option is peaceful resistance
Spend ranks in Profession or Perform or Craft and force downtime until you get enough gps to adventure

[Troacctid]

So i m looking for classes - builds for the 4 archetypes (beatstick, arcane caster, divine caster, waste of space erh i meant skillfull character) using only wotc books, no dragon magazine, no dungeon magazine and no psionics.
So to sum up:
1. Druid
2. Druid
3. Druid
4. Druid

Just play all druids. That should cover your bases.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, if his opposition is following the same rules, I don't really see much problem with a Fighter/Barbarian, Druid or Cleric, Wizard, and a Beguiler or Rogue (possibly Rogue 1/Beguiler X). The Fighter/Barbarian doesn't need* all the magic items and buffs in the world. The other three are pretty self explanatory. Then again, if I'm running a "budget" campaign, I make sure that the opposition is scaled to party strength. If this DM isn't one that wants to (or if he's not capable of doing that) then I guess you're stuck with all playing full casters and having a fondue festival.

*I realize that magic items are kind of a staple, but you can make an effective Fighter/Barbarian that is capable of dishing out some pretty good damage without them. Magic items help, but you don't really need to worry about spells per day or other consumables except your rage.

[kellbyb]

So, if his opposition is following the same rules, I don't really see much problem with a Fighter/Barbarian, Druid or Cleric, Wizard, and a Beguiler or Rogue (possibly Rogue 1/Beguiler X). The Fighter/Barbarian doesn't need* all the magic items and buffs in the world. The other three are pretty self explanatory. Then again, if I'm running a "budget" campaign, I make sure that the opposition is scaled to party strength. If this DM isn't one that wants to (or if he's not capable of doing that) then I guess you're stuck with all playing full casters and having a fondue festival.

*I realize that magic items are kind of a staple, but you can make an effective Fighter/Barbarian that is capable of dishing out some pretty good damage without them. Magic items help, but you don't really need to worry about spells per day or other consumables except your rage.

OP stated that their enemies are fully equipped.

[TheCrowing1432]

Warlocks are pretty self reliant.

[MisterKaws]

Yes, your best option would really be four VoP Druids...

[Bucky]

That seems worse than three VoP Druids and a Wizard who uses all the loot.

[MisterKaws]

That seems worse than three VoP Druids and a Wizard who uses all the loot.

Except VoP states that the character needs to actively grab their share and give to charity.

It could work as a "junk filter", though, by using the VoP Druids to get rid of useless items while the Wizard keeps all the good stuff. However, from what I understood about OP's campaign, there's no good stuff, so might as well just get rid of everything.

[amalcon]

Except VoP states that the character needs to actively grab their share and give to charity.

Three VoP Druids and a Rogue/Wizard or Beguiler or something, who is constantly stealing most of the loot before the Druids know it exists?

Edit: The one time a PC can regularly steal party loot without it being a jerk move, to boot!

[Renen]

Yeh. I want to know why the PC's aren't looting the rich monks they kill.

[Troacctid]

No, four VoP druids, but the last one is an Arcane Hierophant. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

I'd maybe make the fourth character a VoP cloistered cleric. Druids can kinda approximate a skill monkey sometimes, but the skill list and skill points aren't exactly optimal for the purpose. Tossing a cleric in the mix is a good way to fill any gaps in druidic skill use. Also, getting access to a different list is nice.

[Ethernil]

To give a clear idea we had the following conversation:
Me: So if i play a fighter will i be able to buy some stuff that i like, like necklace of natural armor, ring of protection, cloak of resistance and belt of strength?
Dm: No, you cant find all that you want, making magic items being random and rare makes the game sweeter.(then why the **** are monsters run normally?)

My lvl 20 rogue from a previous campaign wears a studed leather +4 with the following abilities: 2/day take 150 damage and deal the same to an enemy, +4 charisma, 2/day 10d6 frost breath. I believe he gave me paladin armor and i cant even buy normal armor that would normally cost arouns 30k at lvl 20.

Also until lvl 10-12 we only had minor magic weapon and armor and magic rings, later we foun some crapy bracers, a gloves of dexterity +4 and a belt of strength +4 along with a cloak of invisibility 2/day and an amulet that shows you the enemy with the least hp. All the other item slots are empty and we cant even buy cheap stuff for them.

The dm also adds extra abilities to monsters without increasing their cr which probably means that although he has been dming for many years he has no clue about the game and a couple of times he called me a rules lawyer cause i m the only player in the group that ever bothered read a book. The others are ignorant but also dont like the way the dm plays, i migh dm for the rest and ditch the jerk soon as he ignores most stuff we tell him. This is the last adventure we try with him.

As to why we dont loot bodies he always makes stupid excuses like the cave is colapsing and you dont have enough time to search the treasure chests or the enemy melts with his gear or he simply gives different items than the ones the npcs were using.

[Gildedragon]

Get an artificer
All gear is useful with an artificer
First thing the artificer makes: enveloping pit

[eggynack]

Snip
The cool thing is, my bad DM advice is pretty much the same as my low cash game advice. That is, druid all the way. The cool thing is, druids adapt. Toss them into any environment, and they have a ton of spells that work great. Up the difficulty, and they show why they're a tier one class. Send them, naked, onto a desert island, and within a single day they'll have an animal friend, any spells they want, and will probably be off the island to boot. Accidentally prepare detect poison in all of your slots, and wild shape into a horse, and have a horse animal companion alongside you, and within rounds you'll be in a great form, with all of your spells morphed into great summoning spells, and a day later the horse will be a fleshraker, and your spells will be amazing. Put them in a frigging dead magic zone, and the animal companion will still give them a leg up on fellow casters, and maybe even some mundane folks depending on the level.

And the best part is, you can even adapt to unfavorable house rules. Your DM nerfs a spell, and the next day you have a different spell, and even in the moment you have dozens of others to cast. The DM can, in fact, just ban spell after spell, day after day, and not make a significant dent in your spell resources. Your DM nerfs a form or an animal companion, and you can switch them out with incredible speed. Little your DM can do, short of drastic nerfs that strike to the very core of the class, can significantly hinder your ability to destroy enemies. And, of course, all this is doable without items. That's true with or without VoP. Really, the VoP thing is just a subset of the overall adaptiveness, cause a lack of cash is just another thing that you can trivially adapt to. Sure, maybe you can't get a rod of extend spell or a ring of the beast, but that just means you're commanding the forces of the universe in a somewhat less insane fashion.

[Ethernil]

Eggynack i see you know druids very well, your guide is the best i ve seen on the net, so i have this question:
Can a druid take on the role of trap monkey? As in, i don't know, daggerspell shaper or something? Maybe a beguiler-druid arcane hierophant?

[Troacctid]

Eggynack i see you know druids very well, your guide is the best i ve seen on the net, so i have this question:
Can a druid take on the role of trap monkey? As in, i don't know, daggerspell shaper or something? Maybe a beguiler-druid arcane hierophant?
Daggerspell Shaper is probably a trap, but Arcane Hierophant is a great class that should work just fine. The way to do it would be with illumian, using Able Learner to keep your class skills and Improved Sigil (Krau) for efficient entry.

Swift Avenger is also a good build, but of course that's from Dragon, so it won't work in your game.

You can also just grab trapfinding with feats: either Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) + Open Least Chakra (Hands), or Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment — Kobold domain). Then get Search as a class skill somehow, and you're in business, no multiclassing required.

[eggynack]

Eggynack i see you know druids very well, your guide is the best i ve seen on the net, so i have this question:
Can a druid take on the role of trap monkey? As in, i don't know, daggerspell shaper or something? Maybe a beguiler-druid arcane hierophant?
I mean, they have those summons, so that helps, and a few spells that are alike in character. It's probably their worst role though, because, as you note, you probably have to go out of class to do it well. Though, considering it further, it's not like clerics deal with traps sans domains either. So, if you're relatively high level, you can always deal with traps the way they do. Y'know, take a dip into contemplative, pick up the kobold domain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), and max out the relevant skills. Doesn't hurt that plan that the kobold domain list has contingency on it. Alternatively, some alternate vision modes could do the job kinda well, and druids are great at alternate vision modes. Like, does blindsight/blindsense identify the location of traps, or maybe tremorsense? It doesn't seem to say definitively, but that looks like the kinda thing it can do. In that case, you'd want enhance wild shape combined with any of the crazy number of creatures that give vision modes. The really good ones take alternate forms, like from aberration or dragon wild shape. Finally, there's always the classic caster method. Turn the summoning thing up to 11, pick up the summon elemental reserve feat, and stymie the efforts of traps through an endless barrage of earth elementals floating through the ground.

So, definitely not the best class for it, but the task is kinda doable. The lack in this area is why I suggested the cloistered cleric. Clerics don't gotta wait a bunch of levels to pick up the kobold domain. It does need to be said, in any case, that at a certain amount of investment, like when you're tossing on a bunch of other levels and losing casting anyway, it's probably gonna be better to just dip something with the skills you need and take able learner. Like, you mentioned daggerspell shaper, right? But that requires one caster level for rogue, and then a second for the shaper itself, and you're throwing away two feats on top of that, and then you ditch your animal companion progression and most of your wild shape progression if you want to seriously pursue the class. I figure, why throw away good levels after bad pursuing the ability to retroactively justify the rogue level. Arcane hierophant is a bit better, at least, though you really want some form of early entry.

Edit: Yeah, the planar touchstone method is really nice too.

Double-edit: Kinda considering listing that feat two times. It really needs to be in the summoning section, because it's important as a cheaper augment summoning, but it's a versatile little feat with a bunch of other relevant applications.

Final-edit: On further review, it was just alright. Past-me apparently knew what was up. I'd go through all the other touchstones, but that feels a lot like a thing I would've already done before finding nothing. Might check again anyway, just cause.

[Ethernil]

Druid seems to be the best beatstick followed by tome of battle classes probably. I really dig the idea of ruby knight vindicator or jade phoenix mage. I ve always wanted to play a dungeoncrasher fighter barbarian going into warblade and bloodstorm blade but without items thats not gona be very good. Maybe a paladin sorcerer gish if sticking to coreish material.

Cleric even without magic items can buff himself into a strong combatant and offer utility spells and healing.

A beguiler seems like the best stock skillmonkey class, and tossing in either rainbow servant if it is allowed(i believe i ll get a weird look when the dm reads i ll have access to the entire cleric spell list on a class that is relatively good already) or 1-2 levels of sandshaper for access to non-illusion-enchantment spells as our dm really likes undead monsters. I ve played a factotum with the group and i wasn't allowed access to iaijutsu focs or the other non phb skills or to the online feat font of inspiration, factoti get VERY few inspiration points in comparison to what they need without cheesing but chameleon can fix that. Though chameleon is arguably better accessed as a rogue 3 swashbuckler 3, and continuing after the 10th chameleon lvl with swashbuckler and the daring outlaw feat geting your 16 bab and 6th lvl casting at both sides, using finesse weapon(s) and with inteligence synergy.

As for arcane caster, a wizard can generally be the best at it but our dm likes doing stuff like taking away your spellbook or tossing you in prison with nothing but your underwear cause obviously letting the rogue keep his boots with lockpicks hidden inside the hollow heel isn't metagaming. So beguiler again with mage of the arcane order or sorcerer would work best. And he won't need to beg for access to scrolls to scribe.

If i get to be the skill monkey again i m considering wildshape ranger 5 - master of many forms 10 - nature's warrior 5. With ranger acf to get trapfinding. Edit: maybe toss in VoP as i won't be really needing items.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Are traps common, and what type do they usually come in? That should tell you a lot about whether a druid can fill that role in your games. If every trap is a tripwire that fires some sort of projectile, then druids will be fine just punting summons down the hall or flying/burrowing. If the traps are a bit more devious, then your druid might struggle more.

[Ethernil]

Traps are very common to the point it feels out of place. Who puts traps in the most used corridors of a dungeon? At low levels most traps are poisoned arrows and later they are almost entirely spell traps. A couple of times it was swinging axes. I think we never encountered a pit trap in the entire 20 lvls. Oh and sneak attack is nerfed, no flanking to trigger it and the only way to sneak attack more than one hit is through greater invisibility. What is funny is that our group was rogue + warrior 2man and many npcs were wizards and clerics. We played without attacks of oportunity as it made the game complex and the dm said it was to our advantage cause otherwise we would suffer from enemy attacks of oportunity, he used similar reasoning for nerfing the rogue. Oh and most ranged touch attacks he cast them without rolling, autohit, till i complained about it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

But so they're generally triggered, single-use effects? If you don't care at all about surprise then summoning spam (or a commoner army with Leadership) isn't a bad way to deal with that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

But so they're generally triggered, single-use effects? If you don't care at all about surprise then summoning spam (or a commoner army with Leadership) isn't a bad way to deal with that.
If they're necromancy spells, a dread necromancer/horned harbinger with Undead Leadership is nice. In general, undead followers complain and eat less.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Sounds like you're going to end up with a party of 2-3 cleric/druids, and a wizard or two.

Cleric/druid beatstick
Cleric/druid in the "Cleric" role
rogue 1/wizard X for skill guy (Rogue 1 is enough to find/disarm magic traps--he just plays as a wizard in combat who can handle the skill stuff)
Cleric, druid or wizard for the "wizard" guy.

If you don't get magic items, playing classes that can make their own (or can pretend to have their own through magic vestment/greater magic weapon/etc) is a big advantage.

[Telonius]

While Artificers can be awesomely powerful (and great at scavenging crap items/creating wealth), they're one of the easiest classes for a DM to mess with. If you don't have the downtime to craft, you're going to find it hard; and this sounds like the kind of DM that would limit downtime.

[Gildedragon]

While Artificers can be awesomely powerful (and great at scavenging crap items/creating wealth), they're one of the easiest classes for a DM to mess with. If you don't have the downtime to craft, you're going to find it hard; and this sounds like the kind of DM that would limit downtime.
Dedicated Wright
Also while DMs can move story pacing up PCs can refuse to budge. Down time is the PCs prerogative
It isn't refusing to play along, just that getting ready takes time (and going at things half baked and half cocked gets all ya'll killed)... Though the DM can mess with items (maybe invest in the create device feat from legacy of blood)

Also time reducers. (Don't worry about XP reduction: ambrosia traps and xp sharing amulets are your friends)

[AnimeTheCat]

@kellbyb, Thanks. I missed that. I guess another option, even though it's far from over powered, is a flavorful application of Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Peace to the healer class. You can take Healer up till the point where you want to prestige (I like the Combat Medic Class because it grants you spontaneous Heals and some other cool stuff) and focus on your Charisma with your Vow of Poverty attribute bonuses. You're not going to be casting spells that need saves so having a Wisdom out the wazu doesn't really matter and you only really need it to cast higher level spells so you're safe to put a 16 in there at first level. Then you can dump strength and Dexterity since you'll be getting extreme AC bonuses from your Vows and when push comes to shove you can have a Luminous Armor prepped (str penalty doesn't matter since you're not fighting anyway). You get a class chock full of SLAs, Gobs of extra healing (Even on a cantrip, you'll get your charisma bonus to healing done so a 0th level spell can heal 5+ HP which is spectacular for RP). By the time you get your second set of attribute bonuses you'll be able to put the second +2 in Wisdom giving you access to 8th level spells at least (If you didn't plan ahead and put a level granted attribute point in to wisdom) and you're set for pretty much the rest of the game. God forbid the DM throws undead at you because you can trash them. If you want to get extra cheesy, be a monk 1/Healer X/Combat Medic X/Something X and get more AC and some other nice/synergistic abilities. I've played this build to great effect and the best part was that it enabled unique new roleplaying ability. It is by no means a perfect build and isn't what most consider "optimized" but I feel it does a great job of putting the Healer class in a powerful position (especially when a cure light wounds is healing 14-21 damage without provoking attacks of opportunity at level 5). You don't need magic items and you won't want for them either.

[gorfnab]

Easy Bake Wizard (see link in my signature) can go VoP.

[Liquor Box]

I agree with the DM - I prefer magic items to be rarer than they usually are. I prefer the character's abilities to dictate what they can do, not what they bought in a shop.

If that is the theme of the world though (rarer magic items) it does seem a little silly to allow the enemies to have plentiful magic items (and then come up with artificial reasons why they cannot be looted). In saying that, it doesn't sound like this is a game breaking problem in terms of enemies being to powerful - it sounds like the original poster's party is still winning its battles.

As for character choices - unless you are looking to optimize (again, it doesn't sound like you need to) almost any class still works. Most classes can still to the things they do without too many magic items. I would avoid artificer though, as that flies in the face of your DM's theme.

[eggynack]

I agree with the DM - I prefer magic items to be rarer than they usually are. I prefer the character's abilities to dictate what they can do, not what they bought in a shop.

If that is the theme of the world though (rarer magic items) it does seem a little silly to allow the enemies to have plentiful magic items (and then come up with artificial reasons why they cannot be looted). In saying that, it doesn't sound like this is a game breaking problem in terms of enemies being to powerful - it sounds like the original poster's party is still winning its battles.

As for character choices - unless you are looking to optimize (again, it doesn't sound like you need to) almost any class still works. Most classes can still to the things they do without too many magic items. I would avoid artificer though, as that flies in the face of your DM's theme.
The problem with setting magic items rare is that it reduces the balance of the game. High tier classes are generally those more capable of doing stuff independent of items, and low tier classes are those less capable of it, which means that ditching items makes higher tier characters even better. With that in mind, almost any class doesn't really still work. Low tier classes are very item dependent, so making use of them in a low item game is even riskier than normal. It's something that really needs to be kept in mind for this sort of campaign.

[Troacctid]

The system is built and balanced around a campaign setting where magic items are commonplace, so restricting magic items has problematic implications for game balance. At low levels, there are actually very few repercussions, because cheap magic items aren't usually all that impactful. But once you get to mid levels, like around the 6+ range, you start to run into problems as the gap between actual wealth and expected wealth starts getting bigger. It exacerbates the weaknesses of frontloaded classes that normally rely heavily on magic items to scale up in power and remain relevant into the later levels. Your fighters and ranger quickly find that they simply lack the raw numbers they need in order to compete with level-appropriate encounters, because their stats haven't changed since they got that +2 breastplate two levels ago.

[Liquor Box]

The problem with setting magic items rare is that it reduces the balance of the game. High tier classes are generally those more capable of doing stuff independent of items, and low tier classes are those less capable of it, which means that ditching items makes higher tier characters even better. With that in mind, almost any class doesn't really still work. Low tier classes are very item dependent, so making use of them in a low item game is even riskier than normal. It's something that really needs to be kept in mind for this sort of campaign.

Yeah, I get that it exacerbates the imbalance of power between the classes at high levels, but I think that's a different issue.

I am assuming that the players have already done something to address that imbalance. For example they may have an optimized fighter and rogue and an unoptimised blaster wizard and heal cleric.

If all the builds are low powered (or all high-powered) all the party can still be effective. Of course they wont be capable of defeating quite as powerful enemies as a party bursting at the seams with magic items. But so long as the challenges are appropriate, what's the problem?

[InvisibleBison]

If all the builds are low powered (or all high-powered) all the party can still be effective. Of course they wont be capable of defeating quite as powerful enemies as a party bursting at the seams with magic items. But so long as the challenges are appropriate, what's the problem?

It could be as simple as a matter of taste. The players might simply enjoy having and using powerful magic items, in addition to their own capabilities.

[Jowgen]

I find Dragonfire Adepts to be very self-sufficient. They only have a handful of cheap items that are staple, and its access to useful at-will spell effects should seriously lessen the load on the spell-slots of your full casting characters.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, I get that it exacerbates the imbalance of power between the classes at high levels, but I think that's a different issue.

I am assuming that the players have already done something to address that imbalance. For example they may have an optimized fighter and rogue and an unoptimised blaster wizard and heal cleric.
That is a very bad assumption. Actually, it's two bad assumptions, because there's also an implicit assumption in there that a "bad" wizard is on even footing with a "good" fighter, which is not true in this edition. And it's certainly not true in a game without magic items, which are the only real avenue of optimization that might allow a fighter or rogue to maybe keep pace with a wizard.

[Liquor Box]

It could be as simple as a matter of taste. The players might simply enjoy having and using powerful magic items, in addition to their own capabilities.

Yeah, I agree. And the problem might be that the DM has a different taste to one of his players (the op).

[Liquor Box]

That is a very bad assumption. Actually, it's two bad assumptions, because there's also an implicit assumption in there that a "bad" wizard is on even footing with a "good" fighter, which is not true in this edition. And it's certainly not true in a game without magic items, which are the only real avenue of optimization that might allow a fighter or rogue to maybe keep pace with a wizard.

If nothing is done to address tier imbalance, then the tier imbalance problem is there regardless of whether magic items are common. At worst low magic items exacerbates a pre-existing problem.

As for whether an optimised fighter beats an unoptimised wizard - that is a question of the extent to which the fighter is better designed and played than the wizard (and largely dependent on spell selection), and beyond the scope of this thread.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Yeah, I get that it exacerbates the imbalance of power between the classes at high levels, but I think that's a different issue.

I am assuming that the players have already done something to address that imbalance. For example they may have an optimized fighter and rogue and an unoptimised blaster wizard and heal cleric.

If all the builds are low powered (or all high-powered) all the party can still be effective. Of course they wont be capable of defeating quite as powerful enemies as a party bursting at the seams with magic items. But so long as the challenges are appropriate, what's the problem?

The problem is that even among martial classes, the effect of low wealth levels is not a straightforward across the board power down. It's not just that the party has to take on lower level foes--it's that it distorts a number of elements of the game and reduces the viable options in all roles.

Take the beatstick role, for instance. In a standard wealth game (I've run the numbers in Pathfinder and they seem to match my experience in 3.5), a sword and board type fighter with all the benchmark numbers style feats (power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, etc) can get enough damage to drop an equal CR beatstick monster in two rounds and enough AC to absorb (on average) three full attacks from that same monster and still be standing. But doing that takes all of the character's wealth. If you cut the wealth in half, he can't do either anymore. On the other hand, the beatstick barbarian with a two-handed sword may can still keep his offensive output at a viable level and will last the same number of attacks (since the lower wealth sword and board fighter can't get enough AC to make a difference).

That's one reason that in the early years of Living Greyhawk (when wealth was often well below standard levels), by the time characters started hitting level 6 or 8, they were almost all multiclassed barbarian/rogue/fighter/etc with a greatsword who managed to eek out just enough damage to be effective offensively and relied on hit points and a cleric to keep themselves alive. Characters who started in later years when wealth was more effectively geared to match the standard wealth by level table had a lot more variety because a character could use a bastard sword and shield and by having (for example) a frost bastard sword and gauntlets of ogre power, still do a viable amount of damage and between magic armor and a magic shield, he could actually have an AC that would keep him alive longer too.

Low wealth tends to favor characters like archers (who can make do with a magic bow and a cloak of resistance) and greatsword wielding barbarians (who don't need as much work to obtain viable offense) over sword and board or two weapon fighters or (especially) rogues.

Among spellcasters, it will tend to favor buff and bash clerics over offensively oriented spellcasting clerics and will heavily favor battlefield control and summoner wizards over blasters.

Now, you might say, "what's the problem--just run everything 2 CR/ELs lower and the less viable options are viable again." The problem is that the power curve doesn't work quite like that. For a start, reduced wealth doesn't impact PCs' abilities in the same ways across the board. It really cuts down on martial damage (magic weapons and stat boost items are expensive), spellcaster DCs (early on statboost items are the most expensive thing offensive spellcasters will want), and armor class (magic armor is relatively cheap but having a good armor class tends to rely on stacking a bunch of different types of defenses (deflection, natural armor, insight, dodge, armor, shield, etc) and collecting them all is expensive, plus "reduced magic" often brings availability issues to the fore). It doesn't have as much of an impact on hit points or saving throws and doesn't really have any impact on summoning or game-changing spells like haste, fly, greater invisibility, hero's feast, black tentacles etc. So your reduced wealth level 6 characters may have the single hit damage and armor class of standard wealth level 4 characters, but they still have level 6 hit points, probably have level 6 saves, and almost certainly have haste, fly, fireball, and multiple attacks which are all gamechangers. You can't just toss a level 4 challenge at them and expect it to work. Likewise at level 8, your reduced wealth characters may have the armor class of level 6s, but they have Evard's Black Tentacles and Solid Fog to work with. A level 6 challenge isn't set up for that.

In short, lower wealth games make what are generally thought of as the strongest builds into the only viable ones. And reducing the opposition level to match the reduced character power is a lot more challenging and complex than it initially seems.*

*Challenging and complex, not impossible. In a custom built game, a skilled DM can construct encounters around what his group can do and what they can't and can probably make it work if the party composition is right. On the other hand, if the DM is using published adventures, the DM is merely average skill, or the "DM" is actually a writer trying to write for a party where the specifics are unknown, I suspect it's not going to work very well.

[Ethernil]

The dm launches mostly cr+1 to cr+2 encounters because as he says lower lvls have no challenge. Once at lvl 10 we fought an ilithid if i m not mistake to which the good dm decided to give damage reduction 20, without increasing cr or anything. It took us like a real time hour to kill it if not more since we only damaged it with criticals with our +1 and +2 weapons. When the fight was over i asked why was the fight like that and he revealed the damage reduction, then i asked him what type of damare reduction was it, material, +1, +3 etc and he said just plain damage reduction. He thinks that what should be an epic monster ability is ok to give to a cr 8 monster and not even raise the cr. Also killing high lvl encounters often leads to the group leveling too fast to get money or gear. Money being useless in the traditional value as we mostly use it for cosmetic stuff like clothes and later a castle, no magic items.

Oh and to those saying if you manage the encounters then its allright here is how we manage the encounters:
1)The dm botches the monster rolls HARD when we re losing
2)The dm has his own epic lvl npcs that come to the rescue more often than not at high lvls making us feel totally useless.

A couple of reasons i call him douchebag and jerk:

We started the precious campaign with sunless citadel and throughout the adventure our only drop other than mundane weapons (he doesn't even give stuff like alchemist fire as drops) was a bag of holding, in a 3 lvl long adventure. I m not asking for the sword of Kas but give us a healing belt or something ffs especially since we had no divine caster.

We went through the entire sons of gruumush adventure and all the drops were either +1 weapons or +1 rings of protection and armors of crappy types like banded mail or armor that we wouldn't use anyway. The last boss droped a +2 thundering maul which was the only good drop of the entire adventure that lasted for about 4 lvls.

The dm wanted us to play city of the spider queen but figured we couldn't handle it as 2 people, he did mention though that the adventure had really strong item drops including a minor artifact he would in no way give to the players.

At one point he was rolling for random loot and got a ring of 3 wishes, he rolled it for 3 wishes and after heavy thought he said he felt generous and let us keep it with 1 charge instead of rerolling the item.

At lvl 3 i went to a shop to sell a belt with the emblem of gruumus i had found, i failed the religion check so since i didn't know the emblem i roleplayed it into thinking it might be worth something and try to pawn it. The CLOTHESHOP vendor used intimidate on me, i rolled a 1 and he got 10 gold from me through extortion, seems the dm also ignores rules about skills as well (in the dm guide in capital letters it says that you must never use intimidate and diplomacy on players) i pointed it out to him later and he said that it's stupid an that's not what it says.

In the beginning he had other stupid rules which we changed like droping on the ground when rolling 1 upon attacking and staying prone for the round and the next, not using attacks of oportunity in the game at all etc.

Anyway we played till 20 lvl and then some more and at least i felt that my character was useless throughout the game. The fact that every single person knew i was a "thief" not rogue added to that, as if i had a sign, and i was pretty pissed at the dm calling me thief instead of rogue considering i never stole anything.

[Renen]

Your DM doesn't know how the game works. You either educate him, put up with him, or leave his game.

[eggynack]

Indeed. And, if you go with the putting up with him option, the way to deal with all that stuff you just said is by being really powerful. Being really powerful is a great way to get past high CR's, or insane ad-hoc bonuses. I was saying before that casters in general, and the druid in specific, can adapt, and all that stuff you just said is stuff that you'd be capable of adapting to. I'm not really sure I see the point in noting all these problems in your campaigns again, cause I think people get the gist at this point. Things are really tough, and tough in weird and occasionally illogical ways. It is, perhaps, the unfun sort of challenge. If you think all that stuff is something you don't want to do, then the education or leaving options are the ones to go with. If you want to power through it, then the advice given about appropriate power design is consistent with even your newest information. It's not like a druid plan will suddenly go down the tubes because of DR. It might even get better, cause casters do stuff that cares not about DR. You can just cast boreal wind or something.

[Troacctid]

The other option is to take over as DM for your group. Get the bad DM out of the DM seat, and you get to keep gaming with the same group of friends, but without a bad DM.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Indeed. And, if you go with the putting up with him option, the way to deal with all that stuff you just said is by being really powerful. Being really powerful is a great way to get past high CR's, or insane ad-hoc bonuses. I was saying before that casters in general, and the druid in specific, can adapt, and all that stuff you just said is stuff that you'd be capable of adapting to. I'm not really sure I see the point in noting all these problems in your campaigns again, cause I think people get the gist at this point. Things are really tough, and tough in weird and occasionally illogical ways. It is, perhaps, the unfun sort of challenge. If you think all that stuff is something you don't want to do, then the education or leaving options are the ones to go with. If you want to power through it, then the advice given about appropriate power design is consistent with even your newest information. It's not like a druid plan will suddenly go down the tubes because of DR. It might even get better, cause casters do stuff that cares not about DR. You can just cast boreal wind or something.

If the DM fudges the rolls when things don't go how he wants them to and modifies or invents rules on the fly all the power in the world won't help you.
Suddenly DR helps against spells, the monsters always make all their saving throws and always seem to have enough hp to survive just another round, assuming you can hit them at all, etc.

This isn't a problem that you can solve with more character power. If your DM is determined to make you into the sidekicks for his DMPC and won't listen to reason then you can either be the sidekick or you can leave the game.


The other option is to take over as DM for your group. Get the bad DM out of the DM seat, and you get to keep gaming with the same group of friends, but without a bad DM.

I agree with this option. DMing can be a little daunting when you've never done it before, especially if you have a negative example like your DM, and there's also always the desire to actually play yourself.
But DMing can also be rewarding and a lot of fun, especially when you have your players telling you how much they enjoy your campaign. It may not be for everyone, but i'd at least give it a try before throwing in the towel.

[Mutazoia]

A bunch of stuff.

First off, let me congratulate you on sticking with this for 20 odd levels. You either have the patience of a Saint, or are a masochist. Or a masochist with the patience of a Saint. Either way, you put up with all that for far longer than you really should have. I'm not sure if this was because this tool was the only person willing to DM a game, or because he was blackmailing you with Photoshopped pictures of you in drag, but you stuck with it. Personally, I would have been out of there about the second or third time the gear melted for no apparent reason.

Now it's time to take the reins from this control freak and let some one else give DMing a try. A blind ferret with down syndrome could do a better job at running a game than that, so you are pretty much guaranteed a better experience the next time around. Take this last game as an example of what not to do. I'm sure you may hurt the tool's feelings (do socket-wrenches even have feelings?) but he's only one person, and gaming is about EVERYBODY having fun, not just the DM.

Level 20 is a pretty good place to stop most campaigns, as things tend to get very broken, very fast after that. And that's with a normal game, with normal loot. This DM will most likely have you fighting a horde of Tarrasque with nothing but harsh language, and then have his Mary Sue heroes save the day, so quitting while you are behind is probably the best for all involved.

[eggynack]

If the DM fudges the rolls when things don't go how he wants them to and modifies or invents rules on the fly all the power in the world won't help you.
Suddenly DR helps against spells, the monsters always make all their saving throws and always seem to have enough hp to survive just another round, assuming you can hit them at all, etc.

This isn't a problem that you can solve with more character power. If your DM is determined to make you into the sidekicks for his DMPC and won't listen to reason then you can either be the sidekick or you can leave the game.
It can help some, I think. I mean, eventually the world will collapse in on itself under the weight of all the arbitrarily nerfed stuff, but in the meantime there's a lot of ways to get past all kindsa stuff, including the stuff you listed. Also, it seems like the weirdness perpetuated by the DM works well with this kind of power. It was said that he botches rolls downward, to make his super-monsters not deadly, not upward, to make his weak monsters super-deadly. That can, of course, be dealt with. The epic NPC thing is weird though.