Assassinating a PC - why SHOULDN'T I do this?

[MrFahrenheit]

So in the game I run, the party (levels 13-14) recently...

...Found the Book of Vile Darkness (which the main antagonist of the campaign has tasked his armies with finding) and one PC began reading it to find out where to retrieve MacGuffin A (which the main antagonist also tasked his armies with finding)...
...Took advantage of an enemy army unit captain's naïveté to gain entrance to a besieged friendly dwarven mountain kingdom...
...And retrieved MacGuffin B for the dwarves, which utterly obliterated the bad guy army unit.

The naive captain will have been briefed on some of the effects of reading the BOVD after letting the party through and before his men were nearly all killed, and was going to order the assault immediately upon realizing his folly, but fate planned otherwise. Though his army was catastrophically defeated, he and some very elite soldiers survived: a black dragon, two mind flayers, a mind flayer arcanist and a glabrezu. They decided to escape to a vantage point and wait for the party to leave the mountain, which they'll be doing at the beginning of next session.

Team bad guy's plan is to ambush the party that first night after leaving when they make camp. One of the detrimental effects of reading the book has been that no one can rest within 300 feet of the party Druid (who's reading it and attuned to it). The captain's plan is to drop off the glabrezu and mind flayers by the rest of the party, then fly on the black dragon to engage the Druid two-on-one.

I've laid out several perception vs enemy stealth checks for the party to make in an attempt to either avoid the ambush in its entirety, or only be partially surprised, as such:
1. To see incoming approach (dragon carrying all of team bad guy, dropping off demon and illithids) - middle of first watch.
2. To see dragon and captain (let's call them Team A) flying toward Druid, as well as the illithids and demon (Team B), after the latter have been dropped off - end of first watch/beginning of second.
3. To notice Team B only as they creep up on party - middle of second watch.

Granted, the party is at a disadvantage. Only whoever is on watch at the given time can make the checks. But regardless, in the event that #2 or 3 is triggered, and certainly if all checks fail, the Druid is in some serious trouble, being 300 feet away. But is it TOO much trouble to be fair?

EDIT: the black dragon is an adult, and the enemy captain is a level 18 half Orc paladin of Cuthbert who took the oath of devotion. He's LN and takes common sense to the extreme, and utterly believes he's fighting for the right cause.

[Crgaston]

Give them a couple rounds notice. Druid will still be fubar being so far away, but they won't feel like you're intentionally murdering him.

[Gurifu]

Postpone your attack. Ask them how they're setting up camp every night for a few nights. What you thought was a group of weary adventurers resting around a campfire with one person on watch in case of wandering monsters... may be a well-hidden secondary camp fifty yards away from a fake camp, patrolled by two owl familiars, with Alarm spells covering likely approaches, and two people always on watch so they can cover each other.

Maybe make a few suggestions - level 13 PCs are combat veterans accustomed to camping in enemy territory, but their players probably aren't.

Attack them on the second or third night.

If you're going to assume, assume extreme competence. Only believe the players are doing an incompetent behavior if they tell you that they want to do it. If they do, though... feel free to kill them. They'll learn, and death is reversible in high-level D&D.

[MrFahrenheit]

Postpone your attack. Ask them how they're setting up camp every night for a few nights. What you thought was a group of weary adventurers resting around a campfire with one person on watch in case of wandering monsters... may be a well-hidden secondary camp fifty yards away from a fake camp, patrolled by two owl familiars, with Alarm spells covering likely approaches, and two people always on watch so they can cover each other.

Maybe make a few suggestions - level 13 PCs are combat veterans accustomed to camping in enemy territory, but their players probably aren't.

Attack them on the second or third night.

If you're going to assume, assume extreme competence. Only believe the players are doing an incompetent behavior if they tell you that they want to do it. If they do, though... feel free to kill them. They'll learn, and death is reversible in high-level D&D.

I like the idea of attacking on the second or third night night. Maybe the initial perception check will take place on the last watch of the first night, and second would be mid watch of the second night. They wouldn't be attacked if they saw the enemy, but would definitely prepare themselves the next night. Potentially could attack the demon and illithids night two.

Problem with alarming the druid's campsite is I haven't run a campaign that's been heavy on ambushing the party at camp; I don't think anyone would think to secure it unless they made the perception check on the first couple nights.

[Longcat]

The druid has the BoVD and is isolated. Is there any reason, besides sportsmanship, why the bad guys shouldn't just dogpile the druid, especially if they are no-nonsense, common sense types?

This would allow them to:
-Secure the book easily
-Provide them a massive tactical advantage by engaging only one part of the party first
-Engage the rest of the party afterwards or disengage if the fight is disadvantageous.

[ClintACK]

0th of all... Why SHOULDN'T you? Because killing a PC in a surprise round ambush is considered bad form. :)

1. What's a 13th level Party doing *walking* somewhere and camping outside?! Have they never heard of Wind Walk and Transport Via Plants? Teleportation Circle? Heck, cast Plane Shift twice. If they *are* resting outside, why isn't it in a Magnificent Mansion (it can be made large enough for the Druid to be more than 300' away from everyone else)?

2. More generally -- how did the Party get into this situation? Why is the Druid staying attuned to the book? Is he intending to master it? And why are they traveling somewhere while he's mid-attunement? If the Plot Demands both of these things -- it's not their fault, and you probably should go easy on them. Otherwise... drop a few hints that the Book is dangerous and have the friendly dwarves offer a week or two of hospitality "to let the people express their gratitude properly".

3. How do the BBEGs know when the Party is leaving and where they are camping? Are they using magical scrying? Note that there are failure modes to that (a Wisdom save, plus the invisible sensor can be detected). Or is the Dragon flying overhead periodically, watching for their departure. (They *definitely* might notice the Dragon -- and recognize that it's the same one from the earlier battle.) Or do they have a traitor/spy among the dwarves?

4. How unified *are* these evilbies? They've just suffered a massive defeat. Revenge is not unreasonable. But so is the Blame Game: Who is the Evil Overlord going to torture to death for this stunning defeat? Not Me!! That naive captain screwed up!

A Glabrezu is a demon -- not noted for any kind of loyalty. A Black Dragon... Mind Flayers... I can see why this coalition might hold together when things are going well, but after catastrophic defeat? And they're being held together by a LN Paladin, who just screwed up big time.

Even if the alliance doesn't fracture, perhaps the Glabrezu will turn traitor -- offer its "services" to the Druid... or try to make a bargain for information. The Druid's got to be in serious danger of corruption while he's attuned to the Book, right? And that's what Glabrezu *do*. (Can a Glabrezu summon a Quasit to use as a go-between?)

5. Longcat has a great point. If they *are* set on violence, no reason for the BBEGs to split up. Tactically, they should smash the Druid solo.

[MrFahrenheit]

0th of all... Why SHOULDN'T you? Because killing a PC in a surprise round ambush is considered bad form. :)

1. What's a 13th level Party doing *walking* somewhere and camping outside?! Have they never heard of Wind Walk and Transport Via Plants? Teleportation Circle? Heck, cast Plane Shift twice. If they *are* resting outside, why isn't it in a Magnificent Mansion (it can be made large enough for the Druid to be more than 300' away from everyone else)?

2. More generally -- how did the Party get into this situation? Why is the Druid staying attuned to the book? Is he intending to master it? And why are they traveling somewhere while he's mid-attunement? If the Plot Demands both of these things -- it's not their fault, and you probably should go easy on them. Otherwise... drop a few hints that the Book is dangerous and have the friendly dwarves offer a week or two of hospitality "to let the people express their gratitude properly".

3. How do the BBEGs know when the Party is leaving and where they are camping? Are they using magical scrying? Note that there are failure modes to that (a Wisdom save, plus the invisible sensor can be detected). Or is the Dragon flying overhead periodically, watching for their departure. (They *definitely* might notice the Dragon -- and recognize that it's the same one from the earlier battle.) Or do they have a traitor/spy among the dwarves?

4. How unified *are* these evilbies? They've just suffered a massive defeat. Revenge is not unreasonable. But so is the Blame Game: Who is the Evil Overlord going to torture to death for this stunning defeat? Not Me!! That naive captain screwed up!

A Glabrezu is a demon -- not noted for any kind of loyalty. A Black Dragon... Mind Flayers... I can see why this coalition might hold together when things are going well, but after catastrophic defeat? And they're being held together by a LN Paladin, who just screwed up big time.

Even if the alliance doesn't fracture, perhaps the Glabrezu will turn traitor -- offer its "services" to the Druid... or try to make a bargain for information. The Druid's got to be in serious danger of corruption while he's attuned to the Book, right? And that's what Glabrezu *do*. (Can a Glabrezu summon a Quasit to use as a go-between?)

5. Longcat has a great point. If they *are* set on violence, no reason for the BBEGs to split up. Tactically, they should smash the Druid solo.

1. Valid...but they've never thought to do so. That's on them so I won't feel bad about it. Whole encounter can be avoided if they take one of these options.

2. The Druid must remain attuned in order to easily refer back to the page with the planar coordinates for the next macguffin. They're in an indecipherable diagram to all but one NPC that they're traveling back to.

3. No magic scrying, just the black dragon watching from the mountains and flying at night.

4. Bad guys are still real unified. This was one army unit, not the entire army. Naive captain is looking to redeem himself; lieutenants know they have to be in it or their heads might end up on the chopping block too.

Would you believe the Druid passed his charisma save when he first started reading the book to avoid alignment shifting to NE, and stayed CN? He rolled a 19...which came to an 18. I could see about trying to tempt him into betrayal (character is played by the youngest player at the table - he's the most materialistic Druid you'd ever see), but the player won't be able to make this coming session, so that's poor form too.

[JeffreyGator]

I am still struggling with the naïve level 18 anything. Let alone BBEG leader.

It sounds like your players are do some things really well and a few less perfectly. Getting ambushed and killed is not a great reward for that.

There should be some consequences for reading the BOVD - at the very least this can change the story significantly.

I would talk to your young player off line about interesting options.

You might teach them about the camping options first. Have a friendly ranger camp with them a night or two and make the requisite preparations.

At that level a druid alone should be camping in a Wall of Stone built tower if they want - especially if they are busy reading a book all night.

[Vogonjeltz]

Team bad guy's plan is to ambush the party that first night after leaving when they make camp. One of the detrimental effects of reading the book has been that no one can rest within 300 feet of the party Druid (who's reading it and attuned to it). The captain's plan is to drop off the glabrezu and mind flayers by the rest of the party, then fly on the black dragon to engage the Druid two-on-one.

I've laid out several perception vs enemy stealth checks for the party to make in an attempt to either avoid the ambush in its entirety, or only be partially surprised, as such:
1. To see incoming approach (dragon carrying all of team bad guy, dropping off demon and illithids) - middle of first watch.
2. To see dragon and captain (let's call them Team A) flying toward Druid, as well as the illithids and demon (Team B), after the latter have been dropped off - end of first watch/beginning of second.
3. To notice Team B only as they creep up on party - middle of second watch.

Granted, the party is at a disadvantage. Only whoever is on watch at the given time can make the checks. But regardless, in the event that #2 or 3 is triggered, and certainly if all checks fail, the Druid is in some serious trouble, being 300 feet away. But is it TOO much trouble to be fair?

EDIT: the black dragon is an adult, and the enemy captain is a level 18 half Orc paladin of Cuthbert who took the oath of devotion. He's LN and takes common sense to the extreme, and utterly believes he's fighting for the right cause.


How is the dragon avoiding making any noise when flapping around? Presumably that would cause quite a stir, automatically alerting anyone and everyone. Can the Druid see in the dark? How are the enemy locating the Druid in the dark?

[MrFahrenheit]

How is the dragon avoiding making any noise when flapping around? Presumably that would cause quite a stir, automatically alerting anyone and everyone. Can the Druid see in the dark? How are the enemy locating the Druid in the dark?

Hence the enemy stealth vs party perception checks. Party may try to move stealthily (I ask how they're traveling), and get to roll for that. If not, they're auto-spotted. Nearly everyone has darkvision, but those of a dragon ahave a range twice better than those of PC races. Lay low on the mountain tops by day (party's traveling on the plains below), soar 120' high up at night.

[MrFahrenheit]

I am still struggling with the naïve level 18 anything. Let alone BBEG leader.

It sounds like your players are do some things really well and a few less perfectly. Getting ambushed and killed is not a great reward for that.

There should be some consequences for reading the BOVD - at the very least this can change the story significantly.

I would talk to your young player off line about interesting options.

You might teach them about the camping options first. Have a friendly ranger camp with them a night or two and make the requisite preparations.

At that level a druid alone should be camping in a Wall of Stone built tower if they want - especially if they are busy reading a book all night.

Do I think the party will win? Yes. Do I think everyone will survive? No.

I suppose whoever is on watch can be near the Druid to give him a fighting chance in that scenario, but it's still going to be rough. Theyve had the Druid wild shape into a badger, burrow 300 feet and camp before. If they do that, then it's just a more typical (if still deadly dangerous) ambush encounter.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hence the enemy stealth vs party perception checks. Party may try to move stealthily (I ask how they're traveling), and get to roll for that. If not, they're auto-spotted. Nearly everyone has darkvision, but those of a dragon ahave a range twice better than those of PC races. Lay low on the mountain tops by day (party's traveling on the plains below), soar 120' high up at night.

So there's no cover at all?

Twice 60' is still only 120' (or 240 for twice 120), if its night then the Druid should still be unseen unless the Dragon happens to get within that range, and if the dragon isn't sneaking (can one even sneak while flying? I submit, no) it should be automatically heard by the Druid, prevent surprise unless it lands far enough off and they try to creep up.

[MrFahrenheit]

So there's no cover at all?

Twice 60' is still only 120' (or 240 for twice 120), if its night then the Druid should still be unseen unless the Dragon happens to get within that range, and if the dragon isn't sneaking (can one even sneak while flying? I submit, no) it should be automatically heard by the Druid, prevent surprise unless it lands far enough off and they try to creep up.

Prairies meet mountains at this part of the map. There may be a single tree here or there, but that'd be about it.

Dragon glides when in range at night to minimize noise. But the party members on watch at the relevant times still get their perception checks. Seems mechanically sound to me.

[Armored Walrus]

I think it would be realistic for the enemy to dogpile the druid and get the book back. But once they have the book I don't know why they would stick around to make sure he's dead - they'd just take the book and GTFO. So I'd launch an all-out attack on the druid, after giving them the opportunity to catch the dragon's surveillance flight the first night, and if the party surprises you and manages to mount a counter-attack, it could be a good battle. If not, evil gets its book back, the druid is unconscious, the party learned a lesson about protecting their MacGuffins and their campsites, and there is now a new wrinkle in the plot.

[MrFahrenheit]

I think it would be realistic for the enemy to dogpile the druid and get the book back. But once they have the book I don't know why they would stick around to make sure he's dead - they'd just take the book and GTFO. So I'd launch an all-out attack on the druid, after giving them the opportunity to catch the dragon's surveillance flight the first night, and if the party surprises you and manages to mount a counter-attack, it could be a good battle. If not, evil gets its book back, the druid is unconscious, the party learned a lesson about protecting their MacGuffins and their campsites, and there is now a new wrinkle in the plot.

I'm against the dogpile idea only because it's a guaranteed PK (as opposed to an almost-guaranteed one). I agree though it's the most sensible option.

[Vogonjeltz]

Prairies meet mountains at this part of the map. There may be a single tree here or there, but that'd be about it.

Dragon glides when in range at night to minimize noise. But the party members on watch at the relevant times still get their perception checks. Seems mechanically sound to me.

I guess I'm having difficulty imagining how this would play in a movie or tv show where it did not come across as the writers having decided that the fight needed to occur, so it did, with the bad guys having information they had no plausible way of having and the good guys being oddly oblivious to the antagonists presence on a high point (which would necessarily be visible to any who bothered to look that way).

First issue: The villians aren't portrayed as sneaking through a forest shadowing the protagonists, instead sitting up on a ledge looking down. Without actual cover observers should be easily visible, especially something as big as a dragon.

Second issue: The antagonists are somehow able to unfailingly locate the protagonists in the dark. If this is truly a large prairie with no visible landmarks (darkvision only extends a fairly short distance) then it should be quite easy to get lost or turned around after even a few moments.

If there's moonlight to provide better than darkness for visibility, then it would be easy to spot something flying through the sky, another ding to immersion. If there's no moonlight, then the bad guys face a significant hurdle in locating the protagonists once the sun goes down absent light sources.

I get that you want them to get into a conflict with this group, but because of the setting it's all coming across as deus ex machina, which really does ruin the narrative plausability.

Third consideration: If the party is traveling together, and only splits up when setting up camp (i.e. after dusk) how did the villains even know the Druid was not actually with the larger group before engaging? Having the villains split up in advance suggests they know this.

It would be a tighter story if the group attacks the primary camp not realizing anyone has split off and the Druid can choose to join (or not) upon hearing the ensuing ruckus.

[MrFahrenheit]

I guess I'm having difficulty imagining how this would play in a movie or tv show where it did not come across as the writers having decided that the fight needed to occur, so it did, with the bad guys having information they had no plausible way of having and the good guys being oddly oblivious to the antagonists presence on a high point (which would necessarily be visible to any who bothered to look that way).

First issue: The villians aren't portrayed as sneaking through a forest shadowing the protagonists, instead sitting up on a ledge looking down. Without actual cover observers should be easily visible, especially something as big as a dragon.

Second issue: The antagonists are somehow able to unfailingly locate the protagonists in the dark. If this is truly a large prairie with no visible landmarks (darkvision only extends a fairly short distance) then it should be quite easy to get lost or turned around after even a few moments.

If there's moonlight to provide better than darkness for visibility, then it would be easy to spot something flying through the sky, another ding to immersion. If there's no moonlight, then the bad guys face a significant hurdle in locating the protagonists once the sun goes down absent light sources.

I get that you want them to get into a conflict with this group, but because of the setting it's all coming across as deus ex machina, which really does ruin the narrative plausability.

Third consideration: If the party is traveling together, and only splits up when setting up camp (i.e. after dusk) how did the villains even know the Druid was not actually with the larger group before engaging? Having the villains split up in advance suggests they know this.

It would be a tighter story if the group attacks the primary camp not realizing anyone has split off and the Druid can choose to join (or not) upon hearing the ensuing ruckus.

Hmmm. You raise a lot of good points. Reworking this.

First issue: Can be solved with a perception check each day on the party's part. Then if team good guy doesn't see the bad guys, it's on them.

Second issue: The bad guy captain knows who to look for. They parlayed with him before the original shenanigans went down. If the party wants to stealth move during the day and hug close to the mountains and rocky outcroppings, they can. This will force team bad guy to make perception checks too. The swooping in at night deal was to confirm last known location by team bad guy.

Third issue: bitter pill from an rp-perspective, I get it. But trying to give the Druid a fighting chance here.

[MrFahrenheit]

Update on this: after all our discussion, party succeeded in the first perception check. Always good to have contingencies though!

[Vogonjeltz]

Update on this: after all our discussion, party succeeded in the first perception check. Always good to have contingencies though!

Glad to hear it all worked out!

[Toofey]

I would say that if you haven't previously attacked them in the night for preparing badly, it's a bit of bad form to do so by killing one of them off. In addition to the other DM steps described, I would strongly recommend ringing their bell first with a less deadly night attack, make them aware of the option.

edit: looks like I did not get to the topic in time. all is well either way if it worked out.