(FATE: DFRPG) Need help to feel relevant

[Ultra4Life]

Hello GiantITP forum, looking for some advice on trying to make my character (in an Up to Your Waist game) feel relevant. The context of all of this is pretty wordy, so putting it in spoilers.


So my roommate just started up a Dresden Files RPG game. Of the three other players who show up, we have a world walker with thaumaturgy, an evocation focused wizard in training who uses martial arts, and a half-gnome thing that uses evocation as well.

More specifically, our world walker doesn't have much combat potential but covers the social aspect of the game. The wizard in training uses earth, spirit, and air evocations and can pretty easily throw around eight shift effects (somehow, I honestly don't know how he can pull that off without taking any refinements). Then our gnome guy can pretty much vaporize anything he's fighting since he's rolling on a +8 for his offensive spells and a baseline Weapons: 5 for them. He also has Inhuman Recovery and Speed (again, somehow pretty sure the person who built the game didn't read the rules on power discounts thoroughly).

Then there's my character. First of all, I should say my favorite part of any RPG is combat. It is the part that brings me the most joy. I may enjoy the other aspects as well, but combat is the part that without it the game loses its appeal. So please, no "just build a non-combat character" responses. Doesn't solve the problem for me.

So with that out of the way when the game was in the works I figured "well Dresden Files is urban fantasy, and there's a lot of things I could make". So for laughs I decided I'd make a thinly veiled Devil May Cry style character. Half-something monster hunter who fights with swords and guns. Plus I like guns and since I play so much D&D it's pretty rare for me to get to carry a gun more advanced than a flintlock.

I finished my character and the GM mentions that I'll experience problems with my guns on a semi-regular basis due to hexing from being around so many casters. That kinda bothered me since while I get the whole hexing thing, in game it's supposed to be a compel against the person WITH those powers. But whatever I talked it over and we agreed that so long as I had an aspect that said certain guns I had were exceptionally well-made it wouldn't be a problem with those guns. Plus it'd give me another aspect to take advantage when those guns are involved, so I was overall ok with it.

First combat we had (we fought a bunch of ghouls) went fairly well. The gnome guy just blew up their leader in two turns and it ended. However the problem was that because the world walker used his gun the gm had the cops show up right as soon as the combat ended. I understand why it happened - gun goes off in the middle of a city, people are gonna call the police. My issue was that the GM made it fairly clear this was gonna happen regularly if guns were used. And my character was built around using them.

Then I started looking down at the numbers. I only had a +4 to hit with those things, and they were Weapons: 2. Compare that to the guy who was +8/Weapons: 5. I get that he has to take one mental stress to do it, but that's still such a massive gulf it irked me. So I started to read through and see if there was any way to make my guns more appealing.

Problem was that even if I got my guns skill to +5 and pumped two stunts into boosting its accuracy I'd at most get a +7 when both the stunts applied (assuming the GM allowed them to stack at full power). And even then with that it's still less than +8 and it's still only weapons: 2. So I'd need to pour two more stunts into it to get the damage up to Weapons: 5 at the most. And for the same cost a caster can just take Refinement four times to get somewhere around +4 to hit and Weapons rating (a little less due to how it works, but still). And even people who aren't full wizards can do that in this game because of how our GM runs things. So by the time I get close to caught up in offensive ability I'll already be outclassed again. I get he has to take a point of mental stress to use his spells, but that's still a pretty massive gulf of difference.

And even taking into account defenses, I'm not all that much tougher. Inhuman Toughness and Recovery seem to barely do anything. And my Inhuman Strength and Speed are similarly less than stellar. In all honesty I could drop Inhuman Strength, pick up a stunt that improves my melee damage by 2 and get roughly the same effect for less. Speed less so because it gives +1 to Athletics and +4 to Alertness for initiative so I'd say it's worth it over all, it just doesn't seem to matter all that much in practice.

Lastly there's the issue that due to the backstory stuff everyone else picked, we're going to be almost exclusively dealing with warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards as our enemies. And how the GM is adamant that no matter what you ALWAYS get your Death Curse off. So even if I managed to beat down one of them the second they realize they're gonna die (or even if I kill them) they're just gonna death curse me and I'll need to make a new character (which is a pain in the ass for this game). So at best I can hope for a draw where we both die. I get that you don't necessarily have to kill someone when you take them out in this game, but if you're fighting something that's swinging around a sword with inhuman strength, you kinda assume it's aiming to kill you. And if backed into a corner where you're certain you're gonna die - even if that's not the case, you just need to think it is - it becomes Death Curse time.

And this is all assuming the evil spellcasters we fight don't just use spirit to directly attack my mind (what do they care if they break a law of magic to do it?). Since my character's focused around combat, there's no chance of me resisting it, and with only three mental stress boxes I'll be taken out lightning fast. Same applies for fighting any sort of White Court Vampires, or really anything capable of targeting mental stress.



In the end, it feels like my combat focused character is basically useless in this group. Everyone but the guy designed to be a social character contributes far more to combat than my guy and they manage to retain more out of combat utility than I do as well. I get that this is a setting thing, like Jedi being crazy powerful in Star Wars RPGs. In the Dresden Files magic is supposed to be this crazy powerful thing. It just feels like the game went a little too far.

So ultimately my question is, is there any way to salvage this character and make him useful or should I just cut my losses and stop using him (either by making a new one or dropping out of the game)?

His exact stats (minus aspects):



Skills
+4 Guns, Weapons
+3 Athletics, Endurance
+2 Alertness, Fists, Resources
+1 Investigation, Discipline, Conviction, Presence, Contacts


Powers
-2 Inhuman Strength
-2 Inhuman Speed
-2 Inhuman Toughness
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+2 The Catch (Holy stuff)



Also I should point out that I don't consider dropping all of his powers in favor of making a pure mortal a solution. I never enjoy playing bog standard people in RPGs (personal taste). And I'm not asking to be the end all be all of combat - I kinda accept that'll never happen, I just want to feel like I matter in the part of the game I like the most.

Any advice, or is this hopeless?

EDIT:

For anyone wondering how a +8 with Weapons: 5 is possible at a 25 skill point/7 refresh game, here you go. If you know a rule to contradict this, please tell me (page numbers would be preferred). It may help more than you know.


Get your Discipline to +4 since it's how you control your spell. That's effectively your "to hit". Get your Conviction to +4 since it's your spell's power. That's effectively your Weapon rating for the spell. Then get your Lore to +3. For 25 skill points available, this is easily doable (you can go 4,4,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1)

Evocation (-3 Refresh) comes with one free specialization in an element of your choice, which means you can boost either your Control or Power with that element (effectively a +1 Discipline or Conviction when using that particular element). With a specialization in Control, he's now at +5 to his rolls with that element with Weapons: 4.

Evocation also comes with two Focus items. These are like specializations, but only apply when held and you need to specify Offense or Defense for the bonuses. The total bonus applied from a single Focus cannot exceed your Lore. Putting both into Offensive Control (Element) is a total +2. That's less than +3 Lore, so it's fine.

Lastly take Refinement (-1). This lets you take two more specializations. Specializations follow the Pyramid rule (can't have more above than below), so one point goes into Power for his element, and one more goes into Control.

His effective Discipline (Dice roll to use) for that element is +6 and his effective Conviction (Weapon Rating) is +5. When using his Focus item, he's got a +8 with Weapons: 5.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hello GiantITP forum, looking for some advice on trying to make my character (in an Up to Your Waist game) feel relevant. The context of all of this is pretty wordy, so putting it in spoilers.

Because of me not owning the DFRPG (my experience is all Fate Core, so it's still mostly relevant), can I just get how much Refresh this is? I think it's quite low.


Then there's my character. First of all, I should say my favorite part of any RPG is combat. It is the part that brings me the most joy. I may enjoy the other aspects as well, but combat is the part that without it the game loses its appeal. So please, no "just build a non-combat character" responses. Doesn't solve the problem for me.

Okay, this is difficult, but possible. As far as I understand the DFRPG was accidentally built around those with Evocation ruling combat. This isn't the intention, and other versions of Fate fixed it (look up the Stormcallers system in the Fate System toolkit, and you'll see it's a less versatile version of Evocation), but it's there. Fortunately, that isn't to say that it's impossible to make a combat character.


So with that out of the way when the game was in the works I figured "well Dresden Files is urban fantasy, and there's a lot of things I could make". So for laughs I decided I'd make a thinly veiled Devil May Cry style character. Half-something monster hunter who fights with swords and guns. Plus I like guns and since I play so much D&D it's pretty rare for me to get to carry a gun more advanced than a flintlock.

Sounds good, although you're getting into how DFRPG does powers, which I can't truly help you with.


I finished my character and the GM mentions that I'll experience problems with my guns on a semi-regular basis due to hexing from being around so many casters. That kinda bothered me since while I get the whole hexing thing, in game it's supposed to be a compel against the person WITH those powers. But whatever I talked it over and we agreed that so long as I had an aspect that said certain guns I had were exceptionally well-made it wouldn't be a problem with those guns. Plus it'd give me another aspect to take advantage when those guns are involved, so I was overall ok with it.

Hexing doesn't quite work that way. First, as far as I understand your half-gnome would be a changeling? Fairie magic does not hex technology. Secondly, you can basically make hexing a nonissue by standing a couple of meters away from a caster when they're casting (causing them to have to actually try to hex your stuff), or just simply use less complicated guns. If you drop semiautomatic and automatic weapons for revolvers, pump action shotguns, and bolt action rifles hexing should never be a problem for you, allowing you to free up that Aspect if you want. Guns being well made actually has no impact on their ability to withstand hexing, but just saying 'I have a revolver' will make most wizards unable to hex you.

Although really, if a party member's hexing your stuff, you should get Fate Points in exchange.


First combat we had (we fought a bunch of ghouls) went fairly well. The gnome guy just blew up their leader in two turns and it ended. However the problem was that because the world walker used his gun the gm had the cops show up right as soon as the combat ended. I understand why it happened - gun goes off in the middle of a city, people are gonna call the police. My issue was that the GM made it fairly clear this was gonna happen regularly if guns were used. And my character was built around using them.

Oh boy, I know that conflict rounds in Fate are variable, but they don't generally get to the several minutes a turn needed for that in a physical conflict. Cops appearing after you fire a gun is a great thing to happen, as it can then turn into a challenge for the PCs to finish what they are doing before the cops arrive, but having appear at the end of combat is very bad form.


Then I started looking down at the numbers. I only had a +4 to hit with those things, and they were Weapons: 2. Compare that to the guy who was +8/Weapons: 5. I get that he has to take one mental stress to do it, but that's still such a massive gulf it irked me. So I started to read through and see if there was any way to make my guns more appealing.

Ouch, there are a few problems here, those being:
-Weapon Ratings being used. Not that horrendous, but this causes a major problem if not controlled, as you've seen.
-Weapon Ratings have been allowed to exceed 4. Note that Weapon 4 is incredibly deadly (I'd eyeball it as Dresden's magic around books 1-5, it takes out 4 mooks at minimum), higher weapon ratings generally just get to 'you two shot everyone (okay, four hits is what's required, assuming +4 Physique, but most people will back down before that). (for the record, assuming he's fighting rating 2 mooks, he takes out 5 on a standard attack, compared to your 2)
-One mental stress is a tiny cost. It's literally 'you feel a bit sleepy'. Sure, using it a lot will make it build up, but in a physical conflict mental stress will just recover at the end of the scene, and anyone with any sense here will have given themselves 4 mental stress boxes. It's a token cost.


Problem was that even if I got my guns skill to +5 and pumped two stunts into boosting its accuracy I'd at most get a +7 when both the stunts applied (assuming the GM allowed them to stack at full power). And even then with that it's still less than +8 and it's still only weapons: 2. So I'd need to pour two more stunts into it to get the damage up to Weapons: 5 at the most. And for the same cost a caster can just take Refinement four times to get somewhere around +4 to hit and Weapons rating (a little less due to how it works, but still). And even people who aren't full wizards can do that in this game because of how our GM runs things. So by the time I get close to caught up in offensive ability I'll already be outclassed again. I get he has to take a point of mental stress to use his spells, but that's still a pretty massive gulf of difference.

Yep, this is the problem, right on the head. Spellcasters are just better. Now, we can theoretically bring you up to speed, but it's going to take some work.


Lastly there's the issue that due to the backstory stuff everyone else picked, we're going to be almost exclusively dealing with warlocks, sorcerers, and wizards as our enemies. And how the GM is adamant that no matter what you ALWAYS get your Death Curse off. So even if I managed to beat down one of them the second they realize they're gonna die (or even if I kill them) they're just gonna death curse me and I'll need to make a new character (which is a pain in the ass for this game). So at best I can hope for a draw where we both die. I get that you don't necessarily have to kill someone when you take them out in this game, but if you're fighting something that's swinging around a sword with inhuman strength, you kinda assume it's aiming to kill you. And if backed into a corner where you're certain you're gonna die - even if that's not the case, you just need to think it is - it becomes Death Curse time.

Now, the Death Curse has several weaknesses. The first is that they have to know you're there, so you can add a stealth or very long range dimension to the character. The second is that they have to be able to speak, so you can just destroy the vocal cords or tongue. The third is that they have to shape the death curse, very quickly, and most won't have the power to kill you right there. Also, if your GM is smart they'll use Death Curses like 'Die Alone' or which effectively put an aspect on your character (although if you go against a powerful wizard they could give your powers a catch. All of them).

Death Curses killing people is also just boring.


And this is all assuming the evil spellcasters we fight don't just use spirit to directly attack my mind (what do they care if they break a law of magic to do it?). Since my character's focused around combat, there's no chance of me resisting it, and with only three mental stress boxes I'll be taken out lightning fast. Same applies for fighting any sort of White Court Vampires, or really anything capable of targeting mental stress.

I'll address this later.


In the end, it feels like my combat focused character is basically useless in this group. Everyone but the guy designed to be a social character contributes far more to combat than my guy and they manage to retain more out of combat utility than I do as well. I get that this is a setting thing, like Jedi being crazy powerful in Star Wars RPGs. In the Dresden Files magic is supposed to be this crazy powerful thing. It just feels like the game went a little too far.

So ultimately my question is, is there any way to salvage this character and make him useful or should I just cut my losses and stop using him (either by making a new one or dropping out of the game)?

His exact stats (minus aspects):

We can try, at least :smallwink:


Skills
+4 Guns, Weapons
+3 Athletics, Endurance
+2 Alertness, Fists, Resources
+1 Investigation, Discipline, Conviction, Presence, Contacts

First, how do these skills affect your Stress boxes. I assume you have 4 Physical Stress and 3 Mental Stress? If so, that's good, no need to bump any skills for Stress purposes.

I don't think you need all three combat skills on there, and certainly not two at +4 (I assume Great (+4) is the skill cap?). I think we can safely drop Guns or Weapons down to Fair (+2) and focus on some other skills, because you do want out of combat capabilities. I'd bump Investigation, Presence, or Contacts up to Fair (+2), just to give you more out of combat options, and maybe take Lore or Knowledge at Average (+1)

For skills to add, I'd suggest Stealth. Stealth plus a sniper rifle makes you immune to death curses. But if you don't want to use stealth, anything that gives you more Stress or Options is useful.

If the skill cap is Superb (+5), raise either Guns or Weaponry to Superb.


Powers
-2 Inhuman Strength
-2 Inhuman Speed
-2 Inhuman Toughness
-2 Inhuman Recovery
+2 The Catch (Holy stuff)

Okay, I think we're spread a bit too thinly here. As I remember 2 Refresh powers aren't a lot. How about you pick two of these to concentrate on (say Speed and Toughness, or Strength and Regeneration) and bump them up to the 4 Refresh level. This will make your powers have more of an impact, and if you go with just one you could have 6-8 Refresh dumped into them, which puts them on level with Evocation and for stuff like Toughness, if I remember correctly, means you're nearing the 'indestructible' level.

Another option would be something like sponsored magic, but then we're drifting away from the concept.

The other option is go drop the powers and go pure mortal, +2 Refresh is sweet, but I get that you don't want to do that.

Also, if you can take Stunts, look at them. +2 to an action under certain circumstances is actually really good, it's the equivalent of an always-invoked situation aspect.

[/QUOTE]Any advice, or is this hopeless?[/QUOTE]

It's not hopeless. I'd suggest seeing what increased focus does to the character. There's also the problem that going for guns (and melee weapons? Does Inhuman Strength increase their damage?) essentially limits the damage you do, but you can get to doing decent damage long after the magicians have run out of magic just by getting a higher skill.

If there's some way that, by spending a Fate Point or less, you can get an equivalent of a +10 skill for a Weapon:2 attack, consider it as it's actually slightly better than Weapon:5 at +8 despite dealing less damage on a hit. if not, you can almost certainly spend one refresh to get a +2 to Guns in some situation that'll happen a few times a session (stunts!), and some Stunts can be really cool (look at Riposte in Fate Core [p.91] if you go Weapons, it's a good 'counterattack' stunt but not broken*). Think of building a tricky fighter focused on one style rather than a brawler focused on two.

Star Wars, Episode 3, shows that Obi-Wan might have a similar Stunt, along with a high Fight skill. He uses his turn to Create and Advantage, making the Situation Aspect 'I have the high ground' with a free invocation/tag. On Anakin's turn he tries to attack Obi-Wan, who uses his free invocation/tag and spends a Fate Point to invoke the Aspect, getting +4 to his Fight skill and almost certainly succeeding with style, dealing 2 damage to an Anakin who has already filled in his physical stress boxes and consequences.

[Ronnoc]

I'm going to start with things your gm should attend to and then move to your stuff.
First things first hexing should under no circumstances effect your guns. Hexing in the books almost exclusively affects electronic components not mechanical and Murphy regularly uses a p90 in the middle of magical battles. Second while the rules allow the character being taken out to decide the nature of their defeat that's one of those clauses that should be used to tell a better story not to punish your players with incessant death curses. If you put the time and effort into taking the guy out from ambush the gm should reward you by not cursing you. Similarly you'll have characters like Grevaine from the books who just don't believe they're going to die (possible fodder for social maneuver's in your prep-work) or who like Dresden's Mom have bigger fish to fry with their death curse than the guy holding the gun.

On your end of things you need to remember that the starting point for waste deep is very point starved for a number of builds. It's meant to represent book 1 Harry who frankly speaking is really not suited to the situations he gets up to. Consider focusing on guns or weapons but not both, at least for now.
Second thing if your going for a Devil May Cry style character you should be operating at Weapon:3 (that's the rating for a desert eagle) and if you've had custom or magical work on it you should be able to push it even higher.
You should remember that the stunt list is supposed to be guidelines rather than a strict list of actual stunts. Off the top of my head you could copy over Offhand Weapon Training from the weapons stunt list in order to dual wield or come up with something new along the lines of

Take the shot
Provided you are at least three zones away from your target you may spend a fate point to deal an additional 3 points of stress (consider when sniping to use a maneuver to have your target be unaware of your attack and then compel it to deny them their defense roll)

Quick Draw Artist
Your first Guns attack made in a scene operates at +2 to hit.

Similarly you should always try to come up with your own powers (the book even says not to use the examples as a shopping list) This comes down to your backstory so I'm not going to go into specifics but you should sit down with your gm and make something appropriate

Finally there's your selection of the inhuman x powers. The inhuman tier really doesn't affect gameplay that much, they're generally equivalent to a couple of stunts at best. I'd suggest consolidating. For example speed and toughness both focus primarily on defense (unless you have a stunt that extends athletics trappings) consider getting up to supernatural in one or the other rather than both. Inhuman strength isn't going to help you if your not in melee and recovery doesn't help if your not taking consequences. You've had a session or two to see how things work. Pick one or two that you use most and bump them up to Supernatural at least.

[kyoryu]

The advice above is great.

I'd generally recommend not being so utterly focused on combat, as in many cases it's the non-combat skills you'll rely on - even in combat. When you're facing foes with higher combat skills than you, you can't just go head-to-head with them, you need to get some kind of advantage - which is usually mechanically a Create Advantage roll on a non-combat skill.

Secondly, I really have to ask how the heck you get a +8 skill and a Weapon: 5 rating in an up-to-your waist game. It seems a bit wonky. Like probably some custom stunts that are stacking and aren't sufficiently limited in their application.

"+2 to Weapons when using swords" isn't a good stunt if you'd normally be using swords *anyway*.

[Anonymouswizard]

Like probably some custom stunts that are stacking and aren't sufficiently limited in their application.

"+2 to Weapons when using swords" isn't a good stunt if you'd normally be using swords *anyway*.

This, OP I suggest looking at Fate Core for Stunt advice, as it has some nice guidelines and examples. It actually deals with a Stunt like kyoryu's example, which they turn into 'once per conflict, if I land a two shift hit with my sword I can force my opponent to take a mild consequence instead of filling a stress box's. Some other ideas:

Blasting it out of their hand: I get a +2 bonus to Overcome (or Create an Advantage) rolls to disarm an opponent with the Guns skill.

Slippery Mind: once per conflict I can take a +2 bonus on a Defend roll when somebody attempts to magically control my actions.

Long Range Strike: because I am the world's best sharp shooter enemies cannot invoke range based aspects when defending against my attacks.

I met a guy at the pub: I can use Contacts instead of Resources when trying to procure everyday items.

I left the getaway van here: you can substitute Resources for Athletics in a contest when trying to escape a location or purserers.

Just for a few ideas. When trying to think up a stunt, look at them as a technique that allows you to do something useful in a certain situations. If there's no reason the situation wouldn't apply to every roll with that skill, start applying limitations.

[kyoryu]

Right, in Core, "+2 when fighting with swords" is specifically called out as being too broad.

"+2 when fighting with my ancestral weapon" is *also* called out as too broad.

Stunts shouldn't trigger off of the thing you're probably doing anyway. Just because you "might" be disarmed at some point in the future is insufficient restriction on the scope of the stunt.

The examples above are great. I also tend to like stunts where you can manipulate the situation into supporting the stunt, though that might have implications: "A Face in the Crowd - +2 to Stealth when in a large crowd" is a good example. You can manipulate the situation to support this (good narrative stuff!) but doing so also has implications (more good narrative stuff!)

[Ultra4Life]

First, thank you very much for your response.


Because of me not owning the DFRPG (my experience is all Fate Core, so it's still mostly relevant), can I just get how much Refresh this is? I think it's quite low.


This is a 7 refresh game with 25 skill points.



Sounds good, although you're getting into how DFRPG does powers, which I can't truly help you with.


Whenever possible I'll try to explain the powers in as simple terms as I can.




Hexing doesn't quite work that way. First, as far as I understand your half-gnome would be a changeling?

This would matter more if the gnome was using Seelie magic. His magic is purely learned mortal magic (or at least that's how he's doing it). Also the GM says no matter what type of magic you're using, you have to deal with hexing (unless it's a purely supernatural entity, which for this game is an NPC). It's not up for debate. When I tried to bring it up when the game was in the making he literally laughed in my face.




Oh boy, I know that conflict rounds in Fate are variable, but they don't generally get to the several minutes a turn needed for that in a physical conflict. Cops appearing after you fire a gun is a great thing to happen, as it can then turn into a challenge for the PCs to finish what they are doing before the cops arrive, but having appear at the end of combat is very bad form.


My main reason this is a concern to me isn't that it happens, but that he makes it clear it'll happen whenever we use a gun. If I want to use one, that's just another massive pain for very little gain (ie: guns are weak).




Ouch, there are a few problems here, those being:
-Weapon Ratings being used. Not that horrendous, but this causes a major problem if not controlled, as you've seen.


This is a part of the game's design. In DFRPG all weapons have a rating and they opt for the weapons outstripping defenses option presented in FATE Core. As in body armor basically caps at 2.




-Weapon Ratings have been allowed to exceed 4. Note that Weapon 4 is incredibly deadly (I'd eyeball it as Dresden's magic around books 1-5, it takes out 4 mooks at minimum), higher weapon ratings generally just get to 'you two shot everyone (okay, four hits is what's required, assuming +4 Physique, but most people will back down before that). (for the record, assuming he's fighting rating 2 mooks, he takes out 5 on a standard attack, compared to your 2)


The scaling in DFRPG is that 1 is a knife, 2 is a pistol or sword, 3 is a shotgun, rifle, or two handed sword, and 4 is "battlefield" weaponry/explosives. And it does stick to that for regular weapons. Magic effectively uses the caster's Conviction skill as their weapons rating. Specialization and Foci can boost your effective conviction rating for specific evocation elements and whether its being used offensively or defensively. So his effective Conviction when using his Element of choice is 5, which means weapons: 5.



-One mental stress is a tiny cost. It's literally 'you feel a bit sleepy'. Sure, using it a lot will make it build up, but in a physical conflict mental stress will just recover at the end of the scene, and anyone with any sense here will have given themselves 4 mental stress boxes. It's a token cost.


Once again, part of the system. Any spell costs one mental stress unless you mess up your Discipline roll (unless it's a rote), or you go above your conviction in power.




Now, the Death Curse has several weaknesses. The first is that they have to know you're there, so you can add a stealth or very long range dimension to the character. The second is that they have to be able to speak, so you can just destroy the vocal cords or tongue. The third is that they have to shape the death curse, very quickly, and most won't have the power to kill you right there. Also, if your GM is smart they'll use Death Curses like 'Die Alone' or which effectively put an aspect on your character (although if you go against a powerful wizard they could give your powers a catch. All of them).


Once again, issue is the GM has explicitly stated they ALWAYS get it, no matter what. And he said if he can't see you, he'll just nuke the entire area around himself and probably get you anyway.



First, how do these skills affect your Stress boxes. I assume you have 4 Physical Stress and 3 Mental Stress? If so, that's good, no need to bump any skills for Stress purposes.


Yes, he has Four physical, three mental, and three social (affected by his presence skill).



I don't think you need all three combat skills on there, and certainly not two at +4 (I assume Great (+4) is the skill cap?). I think we can safely drop Guns or Weapons down to Fair (+2) and focus on some other skills, because you do want out of combat capabilities. I'd bump Investigation, Presence, or Contacts up to Fair (+2), just to give you more out of combat options, and maybe take Lore or Knowledge at Average (+1)


Yes, great is the skill cap.

The fists skill is mainly for the sake of not being completely useless without a weapon. I'm going to be dependent on them regardless, but in the event of the inevitable "you get captured" scenario I don't want to be sitting around waiting for the rest of the party to do the actual work.

The Weapons and Guns skill are because it's part of the concept. Like I said, he's based off of characters from the Devil May Cry series. For more detail (in case you don't know) it's an action series where the main character is a half-demon demon hunter who fights with both a sword and pistols. Dropping one or the other kind of ruins the concept (if he's no good in melee there's little point in the half-something aspect since most of those abilities make him better in melee, not with a gun and if I drop his guns skill why would I ever use a gun over a throwing knife?).



For skills to add, I'd suggest Stealth. Stealth plus a sniper rifle makes you immune to death curses. But if you don't want to use stealth, anything that gives you more Stress or Options is useful.


I don't particularly like the idea of stealth since it went against the concept. Don't get me wrong, I could go with it (my first response to the game was the make a Kincaid knock off) but it would involve scrapping the character idea I already had. Plus there's the gun issues. I'm not going to say where it's taking place (to avoid potential political discussions) but the place the game is taking place in is pretty restrictive towards guns. Anything beyond a certain level is illegal, and that includes clips over a certain size along with suppressors. And since the cops are pretty much guaranteed to show up if I so much as pull the trigger, I then get arrested for carrying an illegal firearm. Not like I can easily hide a rifle. It pretty much makes it so just fighting means my character gets removed from the game temporarily.




Okay, I think we're spread a bit too thinly here. As I remember 2 Refresh powers aren't a lot. How about you pick two of these to concentrate on (say Speed and Toughness, or Strength and Regeneration) and bump them up to the 4 Refresh level. This will make your powers have more of an impact, and if you go with just one you could have 6-8 Refresh dumped into them, which puts them on level with Evocation and for stuff like Toughness, if I remember correctly, means you're nearing the 'indestructible' level.


I can't bump them up. The GM said that you can't start with the Supernatural (-4) level for any of those in his games.

Also a problem is the way catches work (essentially your character's kryptonite, the thing that gets through their durability). You add up the value of all of your toughness powers (in this case Inhuman Recovery and Toughness). That's a -4. The value of the catch is based on how easy the catch is to satisfy, which can go from +0 (good luck ever finding it out) to +3 (anyone with a brain and cursory knowledge of the supernatural knows it). You also cannot get any powers for free this way. His catch (blessed swords, holy water, faith magic) can provide up to a +2. His powers cost -4, so he's still paying 2 refresh to get them. If I drop one, the cost drops to -2 which means the catch needs to drop to -1. Essentially dropping one only gives me one refresh back. That's the main reason I had both the toughness powers - they both essentially only cost one refresh for me.



Another option would be something like sponsored magic, but then we're drifting away from the concept.


Originally I was going to use Hellfire, but the GM made it clear I couldn't use guns if I did (the aforementioned time he laughed in my face). And guns were part of what made this character fun for me, so that was a no.



The other option is go drop the powers and go pure mortal, +2 Refresh is sweet, but I get that you don't want to do that.


Oh it is don't get me wrong. I know full well how good Pure Mortals can be. It's just that - to me - a big part of the fun factor of a table top rpg is to be something you're not. I already am a pure mortal in real life, and granted yeah I can be a cop in game, or a mercenary, but at the end of the day I feel like I should go for broke. It just makes things more fun for me. Same reason it's really rare for me in D&D to play a human, a fighter, or some combination of the two.



Also, if you can take Stunts, look at them. +2 to an action under certain circumstances is actually really good, it's the equivalent of an always-invoked situation aspect.


In DFRPG that's mostly true, though there's two rules. First, if it modifies an attack it can only provide a +1, and they shouldn't stack (with the option to at the GM's discretion for diminishing returns, and you can't diminish a +1 any lower). I could take them for non-combat skills, but that brings up my non-combat skills and my main concern is being effective in combat.




It's not hopeless. I'd suggest seeing what increased focus does to the character. There's also the problem that going for guns (and melee weapons? Does Inhuman Strength increase their damage?) essentially limits the damage you do, but you can get to doing decent damage long after the magicians have run out of magic just by getting a higher skill.

The sword I was planning to use would be Weapons: 3 (a two handed weapon), and Inhuman Strength increases the damage of those types of weapons by 2 (Weapons: 5). Though there's the issue of still rolling on a +4 to hit. Short version is I did a simulation against enemy spellcasters that had lower refresh than I did and they still destroyed me fairly easily since they could roll much higher to hit than I could. Yes, they can only zap me four times before taking consequences but those four times were almost universally enough to bring me down. And that's with both Inhuman Toughness giving me Armor: 1 against all physical stress and two additional stress boxes, and Inhuman Recovery letting me remove one Mild Consequence per scene while in combat.



If there's some way that, by spending a Fate Point or less, you can get an equivalent of a +10 skill for a Weapon:2 attack, consider it as it's actually slightly better than Weapon:5 at +8 despite dealing less damage on a hit. if not, you can almost certainly spend one refresh to get a +2 to Guns in some situation that'll happen a few times a session (stunts!), and some Stunts can be really cool (look at Riposte in Fate Core [p.91] if you go Weapons, it's a good 'counterattack' stunt but not broken*). Think of building a tricky fighter focused on one style rather than a brawler focused on two.


Here's my main issue. The caster rolling +8 (this is before dice, so from +4 to +12) can also invoke aspects. And this is a mild bit of focus in one element easily achievable with only four refresh (so it wouldn't be remotely surprising to see mook spellcasters capable of doing that). More specifically they can tag consequences they place on me. Second, the more they beat my roll by the more damage they do to me. So if I roll a +4 to dodge and they roll a +8 (we both got a net +0 on our dice) he gets an additional four damage. So that's nine stress, or eight with my armor. That's my six box and a mild consequence.

So on my turn I use a supplemental action to heal that wound via inhuman recovery. As a result I take a -1 to my rolls this turn. So I'm rolling on a +3 to hit and the enemy has a +3 to dodge. It's a toss up. Or they can just use evocation to get a +5 defense. Admittedly it's one mental stress, but they do get to decide how to defend after seeing my roll. So if i roll poorly they can just use athletics, or they can use evocation if I do well enough.

And every time I simulated it it followed roughly like this. And once I started taking consequences (after the second hit) it turns into a massive snowballing effect (they tag the consequence, get a +2 to their roll to hit me since I'm injured, I get hit, take another consequence, they get to tag again, etc). Plus the only way I can avoid this stuff is to get a REALLY good roll while they get a bad roll (like if I rolled a +4 with my +4 to dodge they'd still need a -1 for it to be a miss).

Dropping any powers just made this worse when I did this (I did a TON of tests before posting the OP). Without recovery then they get to tag me earlier which means I go down faster. Without toughness I lose two boxes and one armor making me go down lightning fast. Without speed I can't win initiative decisively enough to try to bring them down in one hit before they can wipe the floor with me (which never happened anyway), and my Athletics loses its bonus dropping my defensive rolls to +3 making it even less likely I can survive for long. And without Inhuman Strength I just can't deal enough damage to bring them down fast enough.

I know I'm talking about spellcasters primarily, but three out of four (everyone but me) has a backstory dealing with the Kemmlerites being the main villains of their stories, meaning spellcasters (and fairly powerful ones at that, probably have way more than the four needed to do what I did in the tests) are always going to be a big pain in our side. If three out of four times I'm useless I have a bit of a problem.

Though this is coming back to the idea that this entire character idea won't work.

EDIT: Replies to other posts will be added to this post in a couple minutes.



I'm going to start with things your gm should attend to and then move to your stuff.
First things first hexing should under no circumstances effect your guns. Hexing in the books almost exclusively affects electronic components not mechanical and Murphy regularly uses a p90 in the middle of magical battles. Second while the rules allow the character being taken out to decide the nature of their defeat that's one of those clauses that should be used to tell a better story not to punish your players with incessant death curses. If you put the time and effort into taking the guy out from ambush the gm should reward you by not cursing you. Similarly you'll have characters like Grevaine from the books who just don't believe they're going to die (possible fodder for social maneuver's in your prep-work) or who like Dresden's Mom have bigger fish to fry with their death curse than the guy holding the gun.


Again, this is a GM thing. I tried to explain this, he said that "in the books it's how it works". I tried to use the P90 example, he shrugs it off. I try to point out it only happens in like the first three books and then disappears, and how Jim Butcher's own recommended starting point in the series is several books ahead of that point that it seems like he's just dropped the idea of guns jamming entirely and just made it a "Harry being paranoid because he doesn't get how guns work" thing and he doesn't pay any mind.



On your end of things you need to remember that the starting point for waste deep is very point starved for a number of builds. It's meant to represent book 1 Harry who frankly speaking is really not suited to the situations he gets up to. Consider focusing on guns or weapons but not both, at least for now.


I basically get at this point I need to axe the concept.



Second thing if your going for a Devil May Cry style character you should be operating at Weapon:3 (that's the rating for a desert eagle) and if you've had custom or magical work on it you should be able to push it even higher.


Nitpicky detail, but Dante's guns are modified Colt 1911's that explicitly fire .45 caliber bullets. Admittedly he create the bullets inside the guns as he fires them, but I can't do that so besides the point.

More to the point, the GM is really big on the idea that hexing applies to everyone if a magic user is present. I had to fight with him, look up guns known for their reliability, explain said reliability to him, and then make one of my aspects say they're really well made and taken care of just to make it "less" likely to happen. Desert Eagles are notoriously unreliable, he'd probably make them explode in my character's hands. And he has said that if I want to ignore hexing for my character I need to take a power he made up that costs -2 refresh.




Finally there's your selection of the inhuman x powers. The inhuman tier really doesn't affect gameplay that much, they're generally equivalent to a couple of stunts at best. I'd suggest consolidating. For example speed and toughness both focus primarily on defense (unless you have a stunt that extends athletics trappings) consider getting up to supernatural in one or the other rather than both. Inhuman strength isn't going to help you if your not in melee and recovery doesn't help if your not taking consequences. You've had a session or two to see how things work. Pick one or two that you use most and bump them up to Supernatural at least.

As I said, I can't take the Supernatural versions. Unfortunate, but true.





The advice above is great.
I'd generally recommend not being so utterly focused on combat, as in many cases it's the non-combat skills you'll rely on - even in combat. When you're facing foes with higher combat skills than you, you can't just go head-to-head with them, you need to get some kind of advantage - which is usually mechanically a Create Advantage roll on a non-combat skill.


As I said, it's my favorite part of RPGs, saying not to focus on it to me is like saying not to play the game to begin with. I still enjoy the social and interactive elements of the games but without that part it's just not fun to me. And I get that I can attempt to create aspects. I was just saving time by not bringing that since the same applies to enemies (if I try to aim to create the "In my Sights" aspect, the GM says so that enemy can roll discipline to get a "centered" aspect that they can tag to get a +2 to their discipline roll next turn to cast their spell).




Secondly, I really have to ask how the heck you get a +8 skill and a Weapon: 5 rating in an up-to-your waist game. It seems a bit wonky. Like probably some custom stunts that are stacking and aren't sufficiently limited in their application.


I'm talking about a spellcaster with Discipline/Conviction +4, a specialization in an element bringing his control up to +5, both of his evocation focus items being dedicated to boosting his offensive control in that element by +2, and one point of refinement improving his power in that element to +1 and his control in that element to +2. +8 to hit with weapons: 5 and the ability to throw out a five shift block (using the Paranet papers rules on allowing evocation as a defensive roll). I didn't explain that clearly, but that's what I was talking about.


Side note, everyone please don't list any solutions that involve trying to get the GM to change their ways. He doesn't, and he takes the "GM is always right" interpretation of rule 0 as dogma.

[kyoryu]

As I said, it's my favorite part of RPGs, saying not to focus on it to me is like saying not to play the game to begin with.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying "don't create a combat-focused character". I'm saying "in Fate games, in general, the best way to create a combat-focused character is not to take all combat skills and nothing but combat skills." This is especially true if dealing with enemies with higher skills than you - think Drax vs. Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy.


And I get that I can attempt to create aspects. I was just saving time by not bringing that since the same applies to enemies (if I try to aim to create the "In my Sights" aspect, the GM says so that enemy can roll discipline to get a "centered" aspect that they can tag to get a +2 to their discipline roll next turn to cast their spell).

Of course it does. The point with creating advantages is:

1) The effect of the aspect can screw with the enemies as much or more than the +2. If someone is "Stuck in a Web", they can't run until they get not-stuck in that web.

2) In cases where you're dealing with higher-skilled enemies, it allows you to pick a more favorable skill matchup, or even ignore the enemy's skill entirely. The fact that you can let other PCs use your free invokes can also set your side up for a knockout blow.


I'm talking about...

I'll check it out later, but that still sounds wonky to me. I'm just having a hard time accepting that an "up to your waist" character can be sitting on a constant +8 skill and Weapon:5.

The kind of meta-problem here is that it seems that the GM is actively hostile to your character concept, if not you in particular.

I mean, really, the hexing should be a Compel against you and gain you Fate Points (or, conversely, let you ignore it for Fate Points), even if you *accept* that the magic is capable of hexing lower-tech weapons... (and I never seem to recall Harry having a problem with a revolver or other low-tech weapons).

[Ronnoc]

It sounds like you either need to get your gm to make some custom stunts/powers for you or leave the game. He's punishing an already low power/flexibility build with hexing beyond what the rules or the novels do. The restriction on supernatural tier powers means you basically only have caster or pure mortal builds as viable.

[jindra34]

I'll check it out later, but that still sounds wonky to me. I'm just having a hard time accepting that an "up to your waist" character can be sitting on a constant +8 skill and Weapon:5.

Its possible, pushing the limits but possible, though not constant as it does take stress to do. Also not very nice to do.

And yeah in this situation, with this GM, you need to sit down and have a talk. And be willing to leave.

[Ultra4Life]

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying "don't create a combat-focused character". I'm saying "in Fate games, in general, the best way to create a combat-focused character is not to take all combat skills and nothing but combat skills." This is especially true if dealing with enemies with higher skills than you - think Drax vs. Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy.


I fully understand - it's something I enjoy doing in combat. I just wanted to clarify since some people skim posts that get on the long side (mine was fairly long). Or they may read it but forget about it later. Which is understandable, people might be reading the post on their lunch break or something. I just thought I'd clarify in case it was missed.



Of course it does. The point with creating advantages is:

1) The effect of the aspect can screw with the enemies as much or more than the +2. If someone is "Stuck in a Web", they can't run until they get not-stuck in that web.

2) In cases where you're dealing with higher-skilled enemies, it allows you to pick a more favorable skill matchup, or even ignore the enemy's skill entirely. The fact that you can let other PCs use your free invokes can also set your side up for a knockout blow.


To the best of my understanding in FATE (and DFRPG by extension) aspects don't do anything unless it's invoked/compelled, even if you create it. So to use the web example, that'd only matter if someone invoked it to make it matter. Now you DO get a free tag of that aspect if you were the one to create it, but it doesn't actually do anything until you make it do something. And if I'm spending time setting up aspects that's time the enemy can spend killing me or doing other things.

Granted the GM can constantly invoke aspects they create since they effectively have unlimited Fate Points, but best I can tell players can't. Also for further posting reference, if I say something along "to the best of my understanding" if you know a rule that contradicts it, seriously call me out and point out the page number. I don't like working off of a faulty understanding of the rules of whatever game I'm in.

That being said, typing that up DID make me realize if facing a spellcaster I could fight defensively for as long as I can until they run out of mental stress and then go on the offensive, but I'd still need to last for that long against someone with a massive to hit bonus. At that point I'd be better off just getting the +2 bonus to my defenses since that's a guaranteed defensive bonus rather than trying to get a +3 on a roll to get a +2 on my defensive roll. But still enough of a thought to warrant more testing (I also happen to enjoy number crunching).



I'll check it out later, but that still sounds wonky to me. I'm just having a hard time accepting that an "up to your waist" character can be sitting on a constant +8 skill and Weapon:5.

The kind of meta-problem here is that it seems that the GM is actively hostile to your character concept, if not you in particular.

I mean, really, the hexing should be a Compel against you and gain you Fate Points (or, conversely, let you ignore it for Fate Points), even if you *accept* that the magic is capable of hexing lower-tech weapons... (and I never seem to recall Harry having a problem with a revolver or other low-tech weapons).

I'll admit I just don't like revolvers which is the reason I never mentioned them as a solution. But even semi-auto pistols (depending on which one you're talking about) are just as reliable if you take care of them (which someone with Guns +4 almost certainly does). The internals of a basic pistol aren't complicated, which circles back to the idea of "Harry's just paranoid about guns since he doesn't know anything about them, and he's just aware of the pop culture statement that revolvers are more reliable without understanding the reason that is true in certain situations, and the books are told from his perspective" but the GM is having none of that. I'll also admit he's never said it would just happen, but whenever he's describing stuff he makes happen he says something along the lines of "ok here's a fate point, do X". He never said that in regards to hexing which leads me to believe he either isn't aware of that, or that he's just ignoring it.

Even worse is he seems really liberal with the Escalations. Can't remember the actual name of the rule (if it's even in the game) but it's the thing where if you try to buy off a compel he can invoke another aspect to make it a two fate point compel instead of a one, so you'd need to spend two to buy it off. So it wouldn't surprise me if when I tried to buy off a hexing he'd just invoke the other spellcasters' aspects to prevent me from buying it off. And that's assuming he actually gives fate points for hexing.



It sounds like you either need to get your gm to make some custom stunts/powers for you or leave the game. He's punishing an already low power/flexibility build with hexing beyond what the rules or the novels do. The restriction on supernatural tier powers means you basically only have caster or pure mortal builds as viable.

To be fair, he's offered (what he thinks is) a fair power to avoid hexing altogether, but even if I talk him down to -1 (from a -2) that still sounds like a pretty steep cost to just use my weapons when the fighting starts. Almost the FATE equivalent of a Feat tax in D&D (which I'm never particularly fond of). And for more devil's advocate he decided on where the game was taking place before the characters were even made, so it's not like he picked a location with strict gun laws just to spite me.

And honestly I've been considering just dropping out, but it's that awkward position where there aren't any other games of this type (urban fantasy) going on in my town, and I don't particularly like online gaming. So it's this or nothing. Plus he's my roommate which can potentially create awkwardness, and the game's being run here so it's gonna interfere with my Thursday nights regardless.

[kyoryu]

I fully understand - it's something I enjoy doing in combat. I just wanted to clarify since some people skim posts that get on the long side (mine was fairly long). Or they may read it but forget about it later. Which is understandable, people might be reading the post on their lunch break or something. I just thought I'd clarify in case it was missed.

Cool!


To the best of my understanding in FATE (and DFRPG by extension) aspects don't do anything unless it's invoked/compelled, even if you create it. So to use the web example, that'd only matter if someone invoked it to make it matter. Now you DO get a free tag of that aspect if you were the one to create it, but it doesn't actually do anything until you make it do something. And if I'm spending time setting up aspects that's time the enemy can spend killing me or doing other things.

This was written for Fate Core, but it's really just as true in DFRPG. Fred Hicks and co. just never felt it was necessary to say "hey, if you've got a Broken Leg, you can't do jumping jacks."

http://www.faterpg.com/2013/richards-guide-to-blocks-and-obstacles-in-fate-core/


Granted the GM can constantly invoke aspects they create since they effectively have unlimited Fate Points, but best I can tell players can't. Also for further posting reference, if I say something along "to the best of my understanding" if you know a rule that contradicts it, seriously call me out and point out the page number. I don't like working off of a faulty understanding of the rules of whatever game I'm in.

Nope. GMs do not have infinite points for invokes. In DFRPG, I believe, NPCs are limited to the same Fate Pool as PCs would be. (In Core it's on a scene basis, which I think works better).


He never said that in regards to hexing which leads me to believe he either isn't aware of that, or that he's just ignoring it.

Yeah, it seems like he's interpreting the rules in the worst possible way for your character, which makes me suspect something else is going on. Maybe he just doesn't like video game characters in his Dresden Files?


Even worse is he seems really liberal with the Escalations. Can't remember the actual name of the rule (if it's even in the game) but it's the thing where if you try to buy off a compel he can invoke another aspect to make it a two fate point compel instead of a one, so you'd need to spend two to buy it off. So it wouldn't surprise me if when I tried to buy off a hexing he'd just invoke the other spellcasters' aspects to prevent me from buying it off. And that's assuming he actually gives fate points for hexing.

The bright side is that if you know he's going to do that, you can always just bid him up to two or three FP and use that to stockpile a mountain of Fate Points :D


To be fair, he's offered (what he thinks is) a fair power to avoid hexing altogether, but even if I talk him down to -1 (from a -2) that still sounds like a pretty steep cost to just use my weapons when the fighting starts. Almost the FATE equivalent of a Feat tax in D&D (which I'm never particularly fond of). And for more devil's advocate he decided on where the game was taking place before the characters were even made, so it's not like he picked a location with strict gun laws just to spite me.

I'm reasonably certain that things being Hexed is a Compel, and should award Fate Points. It's certainly reasonable to rule it as such, especially for a firearms-centric character.

I can't think of a single instance in DF where someone had a gun misfire on them due to passive hexing.


And honestly I've been considering just dropping out, but it's that awkward position where there aren't any other games of this type (urban fantasy) going on in my town, and I don't particularly like online gaming. So it's this or nothing. Plus he's my roommate which can potentially create awkwardness, and the game's being run here so it's gonna interfere with my Thursday nights regardless.

Maybe approach him and say "hey, I'm not super happy with my character, and with the way you're interpreting the rules, it seems like it's not really effective. What do you think would work?" Approaching people as allies rather than antagonists can often make things easier.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, the game is very weighted towards casters, although to me someone fighting with Hellfire-infused guns is cool enough that I'm adding the into my next game just to support it (1 refresh, increase weapon rating of guns by 1).

Also, GMs have a per scene FP budget in Fate Core (although major NPCs get Refresh only they can use). It's to stop them from abusing invokes at their whim.

Also, another possibility is that the minor increase in complexity in a semiautomatic matters when on Harry's person. Again, hexing has a limited range unless consciously used, at which point it's fairly focused.

It really sounds like you should focus on Weaponry. I know this is a character I'd love to have in a game (I love Devil May Cry, except DmC), even in his current suboptimal state, but there's little I can do to help keep the original concept.

I do suggest looking at Stunts and becoming a 'tricky' fighter, it'll help you contribute.

[Ultra4Life]

This was written for Fate Core, but it's really just as true in DFRPG. Fred Hicks and co. just never felt it was necessary to say "hey, if you've got a Broken Leg, you can't do jumping jacks."

http://www.faterpg.com/2013/richards-guide-to-blocks-and-obstacles-in-fate-core/



Thanks, I tend to err on the side of "as written". Leaving something as being implied is a bit of bad craftsmanship in my opinion since what seems implied to one person may either not even cross another's radar, or they may have a radically different interpretation as a result. To use the Broken Leg example, one person may interpret that as "leaves me open to compels", another as "penalty to movement related things", one more may go with "can't move period", and the third may make it "penalty to movement, take a X-stress hit if you move, and if you do enemies get a free tag of your aspect to hit you". Admittedly the last one is extreme, but it's just an example since all three make some degree of sense.




Yeah, it seems like he's interpreting the rules in the worst possible way for your character, which makes me suspect something else is going on. Maybe he just doesn't like video game characters in his Dresden Files?


I don't think that's the case. He likes video games perfectly fine, and when I brought up the idea in the first place he knew who Dante was. And even then it was just the inspiration for the style I was going for. I wasn't making a white haired daredevil in a red coat who fought with a sword he got from his father and a pair of colt 1911's. Didn't even give him a latin/italian name (went with Blake). The only reason my character even has a pair of matching pistols is that due to the location the game is taking place in's laws high capacity magazines are against the law, so at least this way he can get more shots off before needing to reload. Otherwise I'd go with one good pistol and other guns.

And yes, I know I don't have to follow the law in game. But if the cops are gonna be showing up every time I use them, I'm not gonna add possession of illegal firearms to the list of possible charges.



The bright side is that if you know he's going to do that, you can always just bid him up to two or three FP and use that to stockpile a mountain of Fate Points :D


I'm more concerned that every time I mention a gun I want to use he asks if it's purely mechanical, like he assumes guns more advanced than a revolver have electronics in them or something. If he compels my guns to jam it wouldn't surprise me if he treated it as a "they're useless" thing rather than "give me a couple seconds it'll be fine". So even if I take the fate points, odds are the gun would be useless so I'd have no gun with which to use said fate points (assuming this is mid fight). And if I gave up my stuff like Inhuman Strength I wouldn't even have a decent fallback plan. Granted I could spend one to make a declaration using my Monster Hunter for Hire high concept to say I'm careful enough to bring a backup gun, but it won't be any better than a Weapons: 2 pistol (Possibly weapons: 1).



I'm reasonably certain that things being Hexed is a Compel, and should award Fate Points. It's certainly reasonable to rule it as such, especially for a firearms-centric character.

I can't think of a single instance in DF where someone had a gun misfire on them due to passive hexing.


I don't mind compels so much as I may be making it out to be. But if I'm just going to be constantly holding one fate point in reserve to say "no" to a specific compel, I have to ask I why wouldn't be better off spending a refresh point to permanently say "no".

Closest I can think is in Storm Front the Three Eyes' guns jamming, and in Grave Peril I think one of Bianca's thugs' guns explodes, and another jams. At least that's what I consider passive hexing (that is no one deliberately attempting to screw with technology and it being fallout from magical stuff just being in the vicinity.



Maybe approach him and say "hey, I'm not super happy with my character, and with the way you're interpreting the rules, it seems like it's not really effective. What do you think would work?" Approaching people as allies rather than antagonists can often make things easier.

I have attempted to talk to him about this stuff, but it's been mostly to no avail.

When we're in the D&D game that's going on locally (both as players) if I try to point out a rules error or something of that nature that he made he gets really defensive and treats it like a personal attack. It's to the point where I can't even grab the PHB and read it while he's taking his turn since he'll assume I'm "being a rules lawyer" - in reality most of the time I'm just rereading the rules related to the stuff I plan on doing.

And when I try to point out rules to him he goes to the ground with rule 0 and claim he's the GM so he gets to decide how to the rules work. Or he'll claim "I'm going with what the books say, they override what the rulebook says". And I honestly feel like if I try to explain how I don't feel like I'm contributing he'll promote me from "rules lawyer" to "munchkin". I don't particularly like being called the former for bothering to actually know the rules as it pertains to what my characters can do in a game, and I would probably get pissed off at being called the second since it's never anything but an insult.




Yeah, the game is very weighted towards casters, although to me someone fighting with Hellfire-infused guns is cool enough that I'm adding the into my next game just to support it (1 refresh, increase weapon rating of guns by 1).


To be honest, I had at one point considered taking the Breath Weapon power and reflavoring it as him pouring demonic power into his guns so that his Inhuman Strength (and eventually Supernatural) strength would modify the damage (to the best of my understanding the Breath Weapon and the X Strengths work together so that the breath weapon gets stronger for bigger nastier things, like a Dragon-like entity). But that's a decent chunk of refresh that I'd be dedicating, plus with his "story trumps rules" approach I doubt he'd let those stack.




Also, GMs have a per scene FP budget in Fate Core (although major NPCs get Refresh only they can use). It's to stop them from abusing invokes at their whim.


Good to know, but wary about bringing up rules to him for reasons listed.



Also, another possibility is that the minor increase in complexity in a semiautomatic matters when on Harry's person. Again, hexing has a limited range unless consciously used, at which point it's fairly focused.


I don't doubt Harry would likely have problems if for no other reason than he believes he'd have problems. Even the Paranet Papers states that for whatever reason Harry seems to have more hexing problems than anyone else (which the GM won't listen to).



It really sounds like you should focus on Weaponry. I know this is a character I'd love to have in a game (I love Devil May Cry, except DmC), even in his current suboptimal state, but there's little I can do to help keep the original concept.

I do suggest looking at Stunts and becoming a 'tricky' fighter, it'll help you contribute.

First, glad to hear that the concept itself sounds cool and I'm not the only one who likes it.

Second I don't particularly mind suboptimal. Most of my characters in games like D&D tend to be suboptimal by design (I pick a concept that's weak so that even if I power game it I won't overtake the other players. I get min maxing fun, others don't get overshadowed - win win). And I don't need to have super high damage. I just like to feel like I actually contribute. But with how spellcaster centric not just DFRPG is but the group itself it really starts to show and I feel redundant.

Plus if I drop guns entirely then I feel like I'm giving up a big part of what makes the character fun to me. To put into (not exactly accurate) terms, if feels like I'm changing from a Ranger to a Fighter in full plate.

[kyoryu]

Thanks, I tend to err on the side of "as written". Leaving something as being implied is a bit of bad craftsmanship in my opinion since what seems implied to one person may either not even cross another's radar, or they may have a radically different interpretation as a result.

I do not disagree with this one bit. It is one of my criticisms of Fate.


To use the Broken Leg example, one person may interpret that as "leaves me open to compels", another as "penalty to movement related things", one more may go with "can't move period", and the third may make it "penalty to movement, take a X-stress hit if you move, and if you do enemies get a free tag of your aspect to hit you". Admittedly the last one is extreme, but it's just an example since all three make some degree of sense.

To a certain extent, this is As Designed, since a given condition might be more or less of an impediment depending on the game, genre, style, etc. A cut to the arm might be debilitating in a grittier game, but might be totally cosmetic in a more action-oriented one.


And yes, I know I don't have to follow the law in game. But if the cops are gonna be showing up every time I use them, I'm not gonna add possession of illegal firearms to the list of possible charges.

Really, that should be a Compel of a situational aspect on the setting. If cops are that quick to respond, it's a narratively important fact, and that's exactly what Aspects are!


I don't mind compels so much as I may be making it out to be. But if I'm just going to be constantly holding one fate point in reserve to say "no" to a specific compel, I have to ask I why wouldn't be better off spending a refresh point to permanently say "no".

Or just say "sure" and get lots of Fate Points! Which can be used for things other than invokes... But if you think he's determined to shut down your gun use (and it seems he is, for whatever reason), and you're determined that it shouldn't be an issue, then either buy it off or have the conversation with him. "Hey, this is the character, you thought it was cool, we talked about this, but what you're doing is making it unplayable. What do you suggest I change?"


And when I try to point out rules to him he goes to the ground with rule 0 and claim he's the GM so he gets to decide how to the rules work. Or he'll claim "I'm going with what the books say, they override what the rulebook says".

Honestly, going from arguing RAW to Rule Zero like that is kind of a warning sign to me. Like basically "I'm going to get my way no matter what, and anything that lets me do that is fine."


Second I don't particularly mind suboptimal. Most of my characters in games like D&D tend to be suboptimal by design (I pick a concept that's weak so that even if I power game it I won't overtake the other players. I get min maxing fun, others don't get overshadowed - win win).

There's a difference between "suboptimal" and "can't contribute". Being at a four point skill penalty and a two-to-three point Weapon Rating penalty is closer to the latter. Combining that with "oh, and I'm going to make your guns not work All The Time" is just the cherry on top.

[Ultra4Life]

What I'm overall gathering is that the concept I have just won't work. Which don't get me wrong bums me out a bit (put a lot of work into backstory, character details, etc), but at least hearing it confirmed helps. No more debating with myself about whether or not I'm just seeing things gives me that push to give the current character the axe.

That being said, this is still happening in the apartment on Thursdays around the time I like to relax and go to sleep. Relocating isn't an option, so if I'm gonna be awake anyway might as well join in rather than silently curse them while trying to sleep.

So I guess now the solution is trying to figure out a character I'll have fun with. Currently I'm thinking of keeping the general concept the same (Monster Hunter-for-hire) but swapping out his powers and skills. My first instinct would be to go Sorcerer (Evocation/Thaumaturgy) and turn my Focus Item slots into Enchanted Item slots so I can have a tricked out magical sword, and a coat for defensive purposes (along with two potion slots). Still concerned about overall effectiveness. Thoughts and or advice? Alternative suggestions?

EDIT:

More specifically thinking something along the lines of this for a rough draft:


Skills
+4
Discipline, Conviction

+3
Weapons, Lore

+2
Athletics, Alertness, Investigation

+1
Presence, Endurance, Resources, Rapport, Intimidation

Abilities

-3 Evocation
Fire (Control +1)
Air
Spirit

May drop air for earth, possibly with a greater focus on it. Mainly for the Paranet Papers description of earth evocation allowing for your attack and defense spells to look less like earth spikes or electricity and more like you're just really good at fighting (casually dodging attacks, your attacks getting past their defenses without issue, etc).

-3 Thaumaturgy
Crafting (Strength +1)


Enchanted Sword (4 slots)
Weapons: 6 (4 base, +2 for two slots) attack using discipline, 3/session (1 base, +2 for one slot)

Coat (2 Slots)
4 shift block (4 base), 3/session (1 base, +2 for one slot)

[Anonymouswizard]

Another idea: items of power. If you are going half-demon like Dante I can see someone who channels all his power through his sword/guns. Say two items of power, a sword and a pistol (or pair of pistols), with bonuses to skill and a unique power or two. Plus you can always use the 'it enhances his powers' excuse.

[Ultra4Life]

Another idea: items of power. If you are going half-demon like Dante I can see someone who channels all his power through his sword/guns. Say two items of power, a sword and a pistol (or pair of pistols), with bonuses to skill and a unique power or two. Plus you can always use the 'it enhances his powers' excuse.

I'm kinda iffy towards items of power. When they were being discussed for someone else's character he mentioned how there's always someone who wants to take it from you and given the nature of the setting it's probably gonna be someone who can take it easily. And he's made it pretty clear if you don't keep it on you at all times it's fair game for him to take it from you. At that point you're down your entire power set. Plus there's so many places you just can't take it, especially if it takes the form of a weapon (or two).

Which is something of an issue with the DFRPG. There's plenty of characters in the books other than Harry who are capable, but I have a hard time seeing any of them as long term PC material. Kincaid's only important if killing something's on the docket, Michael if unholy stuff is involved, etc. At the end of the day they're trying to make a party based RPG out of a detective novel series that stars a singular character with supporting characters. Not that it'll stop me from playing it, just an issue I have with it.

[kyoryu]

Your GM kinda sounds like a jerk.

[Ultra4Life]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Also my wording was a little off after rereading it. The part about there always being someone who wants it is what he said. The part about them being someone who can easily take is just my personal opinion based on the setting (seriously, how many things have 14 or more refresh in this game?).

Also I think part of it is his interpretation of FATE being he's supposed to just keep horrible things happening to you constantly. Mind you the issue there is that after a certain point I wouldn't be remotely surprised for a character to just decide "screw it". If nothing ever works out for you despite sticking your neck out then there ceases to be a point. Even someone with a trouble of "I can't just do nothing" will give up if doing something just gets to the same destination. Which means becoming an NPC (no trouble equals no PC), and the player not bothering to make another one.

But more on topic, thoughts regarding making character effective? Don't want this to be a "let's talk about my bad GM" thread.

[kyoryu]

To a *certain* extent, that's true. Part of the idea is that by taking various things, you're basically signing up for what kind of troubles you want to have.

There's a difference between that and "every cool item you take I will take from you." Your descriptions sound kind of like that, though he may mean more of the former.

I mean, think of the novels. Harry keeps digging himself into deeper and deeper holes - the fun is seeing how he digs himself out.

[Knaight]

There's a difference between "suboptimal" and "can't contribute". Being at a four point skill penalty and a two-to-three point Weapon Rating penalty is closer to the latter. Combining that with "oh, and I'm going to make your guns not work All The Time" is just the cherry on top.

Yeah. I'm more used to Fudge than Fate, and Fate's emphasis on aspects does shrink the influence of a skill gap a bit, but the die mechanics are the same, and a roll that you have a 1/81 chance of succeeding is succeeded on more than half the time by someone with a +4 skill relative to you. Even the Weapon Rating is small potatoes compared to the skill gap.

Also, +8? +8? There's something off there, and given what we've heard about I'm not prepared to rule out GM favoritism in what stunts are allowed.

[Ultra4Life]

Once again, barring some rule I'm missing saying you can't do this, that's totally doable for someone with Evocation. You just need four Refresh (well five so you can still have 1 left over, but for NPCs that doesn't matter).


Get your Discipline to +4 since it's how you control your spell. That's effectively your "to hit". Get your Conviction to +4 since it's your spell's power. That's effectively your Weapon rating for the spell. Then get your Lore to +3. For 25 skill points available, this is easily doable (you can go 4,4,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1)

Evocation (-3 Refresh) comes with one free specialization in an element of your choice, which means you can boost either your Control or Power with that element (effectively a +1 Discipline or Conviction when using that particular element). With a specialization in Control, he's now at +5 to his rolls with that element with Weapons: 4.

Evocation also comes with two Focus items. These are like specializations, but only apply when held and you need to specify Offense or Defense for the bonuses. The total bonus applied from a single Focus cannot exceed your Lore. Putting both into Offensive Control (Element) is a total +2. That's less than +3 Lore, so it's fine.

Lastly take Refinement (-1). This lets you take two more specializations. Specializations follow the Pyramid rule (can't have more above than below), so one point goes into Power for his element, and one more goes into Control.

His effective Discipline (Dice roll to use) for that element is +6 and his effective Conviction (Weapon Rating) is +5. When using his Focus item, he's got a +8 with Weapons: 5.



Incidentally when people are talking about evocation being at least moderately overpowered, this is generally what people are talking about. You pretty quickly reach a point where you're just checking to see how much overflow you're getting. And granted I was expecting this - the system is set up so spellcasters can basically buy as many +1s to their spellcasting as they want that stacks, everyone else has to deal with a rule against stacking stunts and the like - but I was expecting it to start taking effect later, rather than right from the get go.

[Ronnoc]

Admittedly if his gm were not locking down supernatural strength for some reason a swordsman could do a hell of a lot too. Riposte, automaticaly succesful attack after a succesful parry + supernatural strength +4 weapon rating to weapons or hand to hand attacks is particularly delightful. Guns are a bit weak as presented. That's partially thematic (most of the bigger supernatural nasties in the dresden files will shrug off sidearms) and partially poor balance (getting hit by a properly set up sniper is basically a death sentance for wizards vampires etc. Pretty much anything short of the big bruiser archetypes or the fey lord stuff)

Op, I'm sorry that your gm is not willing to work with you on your chosen build, his style should not be taken as indicitave of the system. Also Thomas wraith uses a freakin desert eagle as his sidearm so again the hexing ruling is b.s.

[Ultra4Life]

Make no mistake while the parts of the system bug me, I knew full well what I was signing up for. Using the Star Wars analogy, I don't join a Star Wars game and complain about Force Sensitives being overpowered - it's a design choice that reflects the lore of the setting.

I also know a guy with Supernatural Strength and a sword would be lethal up close - especially if he had a stunt to boost damage. 7-9 shifts on a hit is nothing to laugh at. Which as everyone's said is why it's unfortunate I can't use Supernatural Strength.

And similarly I get that guns being fairly weak is a design choice - a monster shrugging off handgun bullets is pretty standard fair. It encourages you to go and find out its catch, and come back. Preferably with bullets to satisfy that catch. I also get that the idea that mortals with guns are dangerous isn't so much because the guns themselves are dangerous (though big enough ones are), it's that it's really easy to train up someone to shoot an assault rifle with moderate accuracy. To paraphrase Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, you may be able to take one, two, a dozen, or even a hundred mortals, but can you take a thousand, a million? No? Then don't screw up. Eventually the wizard will run out of mental stress to block the bullets, eventually the vampire will eat up enough bullets that their recovery is overcome, etc.

Granted calling the cops is a big no-no in the Dresden Files (supernatural nuclear option and all that). And don't get me wrong, I've considered using my guns as a threat in potential combats. Not so much the damage the guns themselves can do, but the fact that if I keep firing those things the cops will show up.

Or alternatively if I hear a drum beat from inside a house I have reason to believe houses a necromancer, setting up a timed incendiary explosive at their door and then retreating a block or so away to a presetup sniper's nest with a high powered rifle is a REALLY sound strategy - force them to leave the house and pick them off from a safe distance. Possibly call in anonymously to the precinct something to that effect ("Hello officers? I just saw a man place some sort of device in front the house at XXXXX? I think I saw guns in the trunk of his car! Oh my god, it just exploded, the house is on fire!"). And if it weren't for the fact that my concept was based on characters like Dante and Nero I'd TOTALLY do that. It's plenty badass in its own way (and feels very Kincaid-y and yes he is my favorite supporting character in the series). This is why I was asking to see if my concept seemed serviceable. It's not that I can't come up with alternative strategies, just that I was having a hard time seeing the character I thought up working.

In fact I may just make a character with Inhuman Speed and or Strength and pour the rest into stunts to make him good with guns. Possibly make those stunts that Craftsmanship one that lets you make explosives, and a homebrew stunt based around getting a bonus to damage with guns provided he brings ammo appropriate to the situation. And then just take the approach of him not being trained to fight, but trained to win and try to get through most fights without it being even remotely fair for the enemy.

EDIT:

I'm also considering making it so that he's only latently half-demon at this point and build him as a pure mortal for now. As in his demonic powers haven't manifested yet. Then when he has enough refresh, use a milestone to cycle his powers around a bit to represent that. Thoughts?

EDIT:

If I went Pure Mortal for this, this is likely how he'd turn out. My GM is fond of the DFRPG Resources website (basically a compendium of homebrew), so he'll probably approve of the stunts I pulled from there.


+4
Guns, Stealth

+3
Endurance, Athletics

+2
Alertness, Craftsmanship, Burglary

+1
Discipline, Conviction, Lore, Scholarship, Investigation


Stunts
-1 On My Toes (Alertness)
-1 Demolitions Training (Craftsmanship)
-1 No Pain, No Gain (Endurance)

The four from that website, with the description added for those who don't use it.
-1 Ammo Selection (Guns)
There are many different types of bullet in the world, and each of them is suitable for a different situation. Given the chance to select and use ammunition appropriate to the situation, all of your attacks with Guns inflict two additional stress.

-1 Personal Armory (Guns)
You own a great number of weapons, and you get new ones all the time. Use your Guns skill instead of your Resources skill when dealing with weaponry.

-1 Deadly Shadows (Stealth)
It's easy to kill someone who can't see you, regardless of your skills. When attacking a character that cannot see you, you may use your Stealth skill to instead of your Fists, Weapons, or Guns skills.

-1 Sneak Attack (Stealth)
You prefer to attack by surprise. When preparing or carrying out an ambush, add two to your Stealth skill.


This one is purely homebrew because of a rule the GM uses (that I find completely idiotic, but whatever no point trying to argue it) where he says armor inflicts a penalty to your athletics roll equal to the value of the armor.
-1 Second Skin (Athletics)
You may ignore up to two shifts worth of penalties to your athletics skill for wearing armor.

If he decides to give a penalty to stealth as well, I give up. Not even gonna bother trying to explain how modern body armor isn't exactly chain armor (which also doesn't restrict your movements). Without armor this character will be too squishy to survive five seconds in a straight up fight.


Overall I miss not having supernatural powers (makes this less fun for me). But I guess I'll just have to try to have fun by trying to find ways to make encounters into jokes. Though I'm iffy about Demo Training. I get a feeling he'll just hex the detonators or something and make them blow up in my hand, or just make them not blow up at all.

[Ronnoc]

A bit of advice on that consider using a maneuver to draw a circle around yourself before powering on the detonators. Circle's can be used by mortals in the dresden files e.g. when butters was using the gps. They also explicitly block passive hexing.

[Ultra4Life]

Not sure how well that would work. This is a GM who doesn't seem to understand that The Sight isn't mandatory to use Lore for its mystic perception trapping - it just makes it a lot better. He may not buy it's possible, or at the very least require a stunt. Plus I'd still need to make all the rolls for that stuff and my Discipline, Conviction, and Lore are all pretty bad.

EDIT:

Also stunt idea I had, want to see if it's balanced enough/makes sense:

Gun Safety 101 (Guns)
You know that letting your emotions run wild while carrying a lethal weapon is a very, very bad idea. You may use your Guns skill as a Mental Defense while you are armed with a firearm.

[Ronnoc]

The Gun safety stunt feels pretty sound and extending a skill to cover one trapping of another skill is one of the example stunt types. That said I would have the wording of the stunt make it clear that the gun needs to be drawn rather than simply carried to apply. Without that caveat it's maybe a little to easily used.

[Ultra4Life]

So good news (of a sort). The game got canceled for the second week in a row (same person was unavailable again). So I have more time to put into this. The other good news is after a discussion with the GM a few problems have been resolved.

The first was that he did not know unintentional hexing was a compel - he thought it was something that just happened around casters. There was a "Ok, NOW I know why you were getting so angry over hexing" moment, and he made a mental note to remember to hand out fate points when that happens (in our first and only session he made our car stop working since there were casters in it, we didn't get any fate points).

The second was he clarified to me that his rule against the Supernatural Tier powers at character creation was for new players (some reason of not wanting new players to immediately sink all their refresh into Mythic Strength). Since he knows I'm not new he's fine with dropping that restriction for me.

Third he's Oked my character having permission to possess normally illegal firearms. The justification is that the local precinct gives him a fairly wide birth since they've come to the understanding that if he's there, then "weird crap" is happening and it's probably for the best to let him handle it. He's also OKd certain guns as having different weapon ratings. For instance he's OK with a sawn off shotgun as having Weapons: 4, but having its range reduced to up to one zone away (as opposed to the two guns normally have).

With that being said I have a potential rewrite (taking into account the recommendations from this thread) of the original concept. Hopefully it's more viable than the original.



+4
Weapons, Athletics

+3
Guns, Endurance

+2
Alertness, Fists, Resources

+1
Discipline, Conviction, Presence, Rapport, Investigation

Notes: Fists is in there entirely for the sake of not becoming completely useless in the event of the all-too-common "you get captured" scenario. The casters will still have their magic, it'd probably be good for me to have something as well. Bumped Athletics up to +4 so it's at +5 for dodging purposes (thanks to Inhuman Speed), which I dropped guns for. Guns are mostly there for fun. Besides, in DMC guns are usually only good for chip damage and combo extensions anyway. Might as well drop it a bit (but keep it high enough that it's viable if I need it).

Discipline, Conviction, and Presence are just there to avoid being entirely helpless when attacked in those ways. Resources to buy guns and other weapons, and then Investigation for the sake of finding what he's hunting.

He lacks Lore primarily because I don't have the skill points, and also because his High Concept includes Monster Hunter. Worst case I can spend a Fate Point to declare he knows what he's fighting. Even without that with a concept like that it's at least somewhat reasonable to assume he knows how to kill the more common things that go bump in the night. You don't force a doctor to roll on Scholarship to know what cancer is, after all.

Abilities
-2 Inhuman Speed
-4 Supernatural Recovery
+2 The Catch (Blessed swords, holy water, faith magic)

+1 Human Form (affecting the following powers)
-2 Inhuman Strength

-1 No Pain, No Gain


Notes: The GM has OKed Human Form (it's essentially a Devil Trigger to keep the DMC theme) on the condition that if I take any new supernatural powers they have to be tied to it (essentially unlocking more powers for that form). No Pain, No Gain and upping the Supernatural Recovery are there since I've decided to embrace the strategy of outlasting encounters rather than trying to deal a ton of damage to get through them. Plus as a combat based character I don't particularly like the idea of having physical consequences for very long. Being able to shrug off Moderate Consequences and below once the scene ends, and Severe once the next scene ends is nice. Plus with three mild consequences and the ability to shrug off a mild consequence twice per combat scene means he should hopefully be able to take a lot of punishment before being seriously impeded. Plus with dodging with a +5 means he'll be at least fairly difficult to hit.



I'm still concerned he won't have much in the way of utility outside of combat though.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Sounds like your GM is very particular about making sure that things "fit", moreso than working things out. Not necessarily a jerk, just someone who wants to make everything "correct" by the lore and such. I'm glad you were able to get some groundwork done on the hexing thing; that should definitely help keep that in check.

[Ultra4Life]

Not planning to use this, but for laughs I decided to try my hand at building Gene from God Hand (turns out I love anything made by Clover Studio or Platinum Games/Hideki Kamiya).



+4
Fists, Athletics

+3
Endurance, Alertness

+2
Intimidation, Presence, Might

+1
Conviction, Discipline, Empathy, Lore, Rapport

Abilities
+0 God Hand (Item of Power)
Note: +0 is because it's not something you could really remove from the character without, well, cutting their arm off (and probably followed by bleeding to death). So no refund in refresh, it's just there to make it clear this is not an inherent ability. Similar to the Denarians and their coins.

-4 Supernatural Strength

Stunts
-1 Lethal Weapons
-1 God Roulette (Killer Blows)
Note: Renamed for laughs.