Dex-based Barbarian help appreciated.

[Eladain]

I should note, I have viewed the halfling barbarian thread that's currently ongoing, but I didn't want to hijack his thread with my questions.

So I'm currently running a Stout Halfling Barbarian in one of the campaigns I'm playing in. Due to it being in the Al-Qadim setting and heavier armors (even breastplate/halfplate) being extremely rare I wanted to go for more of an unarmored, elusive, front liner and a dex-based Barb just seemed to fit the bill. I did give druid a long look, but the raging halfling visual won me over. I know, I know, I'm giving up a fair bit of dmg compared to a Str build. I do love the concept though so I opted for flavor over 100% optimization. That being said I would like to maximize the potential of the build as much as possible. Current party consists of myself, a blasty lore bard, a rogue (still deciding between stabby stabby, or shooty shooty), and a cleric (I believe tempest).

Stats (Rolled): Str 13, Dex 18(20), Con 16(17), Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 10 Currently using rapier+shield

So we're just lvl 2 currently, but I'm a bit of a planner and like to have my future levels mostly mapped out. The dilemma I'm seeing though is that past lvl 5-7 (Init adv is pretty nice) Barbarian class features don't lend themselves very well to the dex builds. The level 14 abilities(totem) are nice, but not necessarily worth an additional 7 level investment in my mind. So that leads me to multi-classing...

Realistically our campaigns usually run to level 15 or so. Assuming 5-7 levels of Barb, where would you guys go for the other 8-10? Fighter is always an option for a fighting style (dueling) and action surge. Both of which would make up for some lost dmg of a dex barb. BM maneuvers and an extra feat/ASI(Magic Init for BB and some extra stickiness?) never hurt anyone either. Given the 20 dex and finesse weapon Rogue seems like a solid choice as well. It will cost me a little health, and I don't want to step on our rogue's toes, but the SA dice could also go a long way to making up for lost dmg. This could get a big boost if our rogue chooses the stabby stabby route so we enable SA for each other in combat.

Does one of the above choices seem infinitely better than the other? Am I overlooking an obvious route?

Any and all constructive feedback is appreciated!

[Giant2005]

If it is an either/or thing, then Rogue is definitely better. Your incredible tankiness would become even more pronounced once you get Uncanny Dodge at Rogue 5. The damage is obviously a boon too.
You could just go with both though - Battlemater enhanced the Rogue's offense nicely due to offering a reliable way of gaining off turn sneak attacks, and Barbarian and Rogue go together defensively really well due to high AC, Rage and Uncanny Dodge.
Go for both if you can.

[Spacehamster]

9 Barb, 2 fighter, rest swashbuckler would make a nice build. :)
Assassin might be better since you do not have high CHA for swashbuckler to benefit from tho.

[Giant2005]

I would ordinarily go 3 Barb, 6 Battlemaster, X Swashbuckler; but with your impressive stats (you only need 2 ASIs to max out the relevant abilities), I'd go 5 Barb, 3 Battlemaster, X Swashbuckler. I'd leave the Battlemaster levels until after I had reached 5 Barb/8 Swashbuckler, so I could max out my abilities as well as pick up Shieldmaster asap.

[Eladain]

If it is an either/or thing, then Rogue is definitely better. Your incredible tankiness would become even more pronounced once you get Uncanny Dodge at Rogue 5. The damage is obviously a boon too.
You could just go with both though - Battlemater enhanced the Rogue's offense nicely due to offering a reliable way of gaining off turn sneak attacks, and Barbarian and Rogue go together defensively really well due to high AC, Rage and Uncanny Dodge.
Go for both if you can.

It's definitely not an either/or scenario. I guess in my head I was thinking Fighter 8 (for 3 feats/ASI's) when I wrote that. Of course this is by no means a feat intensive build, especially with rolled stats. Going like Barb 7 / BM 3/ Rogue 5 looks nice though. I'll have to look at it closer when I get home from work.

[Eladain]

I would ordinarily go 3 Barb, 6 Battlemaster, X Swashbuckler; but with your impressive stats (you only need 2 ASIs to max out the relevant abilities), I'd go 5 Barb, 3 Battlemaster, X Swashbuckler. I'd leave the Battlemaster levels until after I had reached 5 Barb/8 Swashbuckler, so I could max out my abilities as well as pick up Shieldmaster asap.

I hadn't actually looked at Swash given my low Cha, but enabling my own SA is always nice.

5 Barb would obviously mean losing the adv on initiative at 7 which would be a bit of a bummer. Although I don't have my book in front of me at work to see the tradeoff at Rogue 8. Not that I'd *need* to win iniative, and +5 isn't bad either.

Appreciate the food for thought.

[ojo_pelao]

Hey! I'm the guy who made the halfling barb thread and I'm stealing some ideas from here, too haha. You might like https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2ji303/the_class_is_a_lie_the_lil_chef/, it's a post about a halfling dex barb with chef flavor.

Btw, I should add that my current build is Barb 6/Rogue 1, STR 18 DEX 16 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 12. Dual-wielding shortswords with a shield/rapier combo as backup when he's in real danger. My idea is to basically always reckless attack and hope my 16 AC plus resistance to all damage helps me shrug off the damage. Always having advantage means I get a sneak attack in every round. Plus I took expertise in Athletics which should help me grapple and shove up to medium sized enemies at least. I might take mobile at lvl 8 giving me 55 speed and allowing me to dart up, hit a guy, run away avoiding AOs and repeat that 2x. He's somewhat based on Wolverine, he gets hit a lot but keeps getting back up anyway.

[Eladain]

Hey! I'm the guy who made the halfling barb thread and I'm stealing some ideas from here, too haha.

Btw, I should add that my current build is Barb 6/Rogue 1, STR 18 DEX 16 CON 16 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 12. Dual-wielding shortswords with a shield/rapier combo as backup when he's in real danger. My idea is to basically always reckless attack and hope my 16 AC plus resistance to all damage helps me shrug off the damage. Always having advantage means I get a sneak attack in every round. Plus I took expertise in Athletics which should help me grapple and shove up to medium sized enemies at least. I might take mobile at lvl 8 giving me 55 speed and allowing me to dart up, hit a guy, run away avoiding AOs and repeat that 2x. He's somewhat based on Wolverine, he gets hit a lot but keeps getting back up anyway.

Haha, so I totally replied to this at work, but I guess it didn't go through. Bummer. I have been following your thread and like what's going on over there. I toyed around with dual wielding a bit, but just couldn't get it to where I was happy for a defensive build compared to dex. Admittedly if I had access to a breastplate with MAM in this campaign that could be a different story. You could still match shield ac with dual wielder and mariner fighting style, but you'd lose the attribute bonus to your off-hand sadly. Ultimately the feat cost, and potential ac loss from a magic shield that turned me away. Although for a str build such as yours it's looking solid.

I do love the idea of mobile on these pint-sized ragers. I may try to squeeze it in as my 3rd feat/ASI, after +1 con/wis and res(wis). Unless I just absolutely need to defense from that last +2 Con. Although it would probably be less effective than shield master. I'll have to see how the rest of my party behaves during combat as we level and see what I'd get the most mileage out of.

Giving yourself Adv every round is great. It's mostly what I love about the above suggestion of swashbuckler. Although that's not adv, just enabling SA, which is essentially what my build would want adv for.

[ojo_pelao]

The other bonus to advantage is high percentage of crits and well, having advantage. The cool thing about mobile on this build is that coupled with halfling nimbleness, you can run up, hit somebody, and then move through their space and past it without getting hit. Plus, if there are other party members threatening the enemy, they likely won't follow you and the fact that they have advantage on attacks against you because of reckless attack doesn't matter.

[Eladain]

Oh for sure, mobile on halflings is great. It will largely depend on what route the party rogue goes (melee vs ranged). If they go ranged, I'll be the only melee and won't get quite as much mileage out of it.

[JeffreyGator]

I might take mobile at lvl 8 giving me 55 speed and allowing me to dart up, hit a guy, run away avoiding AOs and repeat that 2x. He's somewhat based on Wolverine, he gets hit a lot but keeps getting back up anyway.

How do you get 55 speed?

Halfling 25 + barb 10 + mobility 10 = 45?

[Eladain]

He probably just had a little typo. Although a 55 foot speed halfling would be hilarious.

[ojo_pelao]

Yeah, that was a typo. 45 is still crazy for a halfling.

[Joe the Rat]

Go Elk totem at 3, and you're up to 60 while raging.

[Eladain]

I had totally forgotten about the newer totems, but it's near impossible to pass on bear at 3.

[Giant2005]

I had totally forgotten about the newer totems, but it's near impossible to pass on bear at 3.

Wolf Totem is a much better level 3 bonus (unless you are a melee light team). It is generally better to greatly increase that offensive capabilities of your entire team, than it is to give 1 person on that team some uncommon resistances.

[Eladain]

Ya, it's just a 4 person party. Blasty Bard, Ranged Cleric, and even the rogue is leaning towards being an archer. It's possible the cleric starts getting into melee more, but if that doesn't happen soon then bear it is.

[Dizlag]

Oh the raging pint sized viking (Barbarian 5 - Bear Totem/ Fighter 3 - Battlemaster / Sailor background) I'm playing is awesome! With 84 hit points, it's like he's got 168 when raging and can take a hit ... when they hit and it's not often. I'm playing him in the Out of the Abyss Adventure League and has the Sunsword. With his 20 AC (sword and board / duelist style) and the goodies of the Battlemaster ... goading attack, menacing attack, and riposte ... Mogar the Tall is one of my favorite characters of all time!

Yeah, I'm not the strongest (13 STR), but when he's raging still gets advantage on Strength checks. I have never used reckless attack because he always fights with finesse and not strength.

Oh, we had some downtime for a few months and he caroused up and down the Sword Coast. I rolled a natural 20, the highest on the carousing table ... I think it's in the DMG ... for "Legendary Carousing". Totally playing up the "a tavern brawl is a great way to get to know a new town" personality trait. Hehehe

I don't think you can go wrong either way you choose and I commend your choice to have a flavorful character rule out over a mechanically optimized character.

Kudos!

Dizlag aka Mogar the Tall, Mogar the Calm, or Mogar the Barbarian

[Eladain]

Obviously I haven't gotten to multi-classing just yet, but it sounds like our characters are almost identical. Still weighing BM vs Swashbuckler @6, but aside from that... 13 Str? Check. Sailor background? check. Although I took the variant: bad reputation. Sword and board finesse goodness? Check. We even get to know new towns the same way! Haha

Admittedly he has been a riot to play even if I do get eye-rolls from my fellow party members, mainly the cleric, from time to time.

Our first session my character heard a story from an old man in an inn about a city under the city they were in. Naturally I had to check into this with my curious nature. So out of the inn I went, alone. At least I thought I was alone, our rogue was following me from the shadows. I bought an amulet from a vendor per the old man's instructions to "show me the way to the undercity' and proceeded as he described "Take three lefts and a door will appear showing you the way". Keep in mind my intelligence is not the best, so this all sounded perfectly legit, thanks to that 1 on Insight. So I make my three lefts and proceed down an ally to find an Ogre, BUT he's guarding a door. Jackpot!? After a short conversation (I don't speak ogre and he didn't speak common), he takes me inside (our halfling rogue sneaks in with a natural 20) and there is a human wizard (or spellcaster of some kind, in a red robe). The ogre exits and after a bit of back and forth the wizard leads me to the 'entrance' to the undercity, a.k.a a well in the basement. The ruse was up so to speak so I rage and start to charge the wizard who is already casting burning hands. He hits me for like 4 damage (Yay for low rolls). The rogue lands a brutal sneak attack, and I finish him off. So two halflings, one wearing a wizards robe (me), promptly run out of this house, under the ogres legs, and down the ally into the bard and cleric who had squeezed the old man for info and come after us.

The cleric chastised me for the remainder of the session, in character of course, about killing the wizard. In self defense though. So near the end of the session after a short boat ride to a new town we encounter some men on the docks from the very begging of the session. During the course of the conversation the cleric, not so subtly, threatens to kill all of them. My halfling just burst out laughing and headed to the tavern. He had a new town to get to know after all.

[Dizlag]

LOL! That sounds like a great time you're having!

The reason I took Barbarian up to 5th level was at 3rd I got the Bear Totem and the very next level was a chance to get my Dex up to an 18. Then, a 5th level Barbarian gets a second attack, so I stopped there. I decided to go Fighter/Battlemaster from then on because of the Action Surge ability, Second Wind (yay for self-heals), and the flavor of Battlemaster fits SO well with Mogar. Another trait or bond is Mogar thinks he's the best fighter in Faerun and everyone else are just his practice dummies. hehehe

Next level would be 4th level Fighter for Mogar, so taking +2 DEX getting it to a 20 would mean he's got a 19/21 AC (21 with the shield) and +11 to hit (proficiency will be +4) / 1d8+9 damage with the sunsword he's named Hilda (it's a hilt ... so it worked). A brutal attack to say the least when he adds in mastery die as baddies miss him in combat using riposte. =)

At 5th level Fighter, he'll be getting a 3rd attack and at 6th level Fighter he will increase his Con to an 18 for 20/22 AC and about 21 more hit points to bring his total to about 115 HPs. I think 7th level Figher/Battlemaster will give him another mastery die ... so lots of crunchy bits to look forward to! And keeping in mind Mogar's mindset that he's the best and no one or nothing can defeat him ... or at least nothing hasn't yet. Scratch that ... he did go down last session ... for the first time in the campaign which has been going on since last Oct/Nov. hehehe

Enjoy!

D

[Giant2005]

At 5th level Fighter, he'll be getting a 3rd attack

That won't be happening. Extra attack doesn't stack.

[Dizlag]

Thanks for that. After re-reading the multiclass paragraph for Extra Attack on pg 57, I understand it now. I would get a 3rd attack when I'm 11th level in Fighter. I get it now. It kind of confused me when it says "as the fighter’s version of Extra Attack does" which to me I thought that was a specific rule over riding that general rule that it stacked. Makes sense now.

Dizlag

[djreynolds]

I would ordinarily go 3 Barb, 6 Battlemaster, X Swashbuckler; but with your impressive stats (you only need 2 ASIs to max out the relevant abilities), I'd go 5 Barb, 3 Battlemaster, X Swashbuckler. I'd leave the Battlemaster levels until after I had reached 5 Barb/8 Swashbuckler, so I could max out my abilities as well as pick up Shieldmaster asap.

I think this is a pretty good direction

Though I like GFB and BB, once you cast this/attack you lose your second attack... so I would lose magic initiate because you do not need it because of this. And if you are raging, you lose out as well

The trick is do not worry about losing your damage bonus from rage because you will be striking with dex. You are already 2 level barbarian and next level you'll grab your totem, bear I'm assuming.

So you may as well go 5 barbarian to get the 2nd attack. And then go rogue and you know what, just skip fighter all together. You'll be waiting forever for fighter and rogue 1-10 will give 3 ASI at 4, 8, & 10, 4 skills expertise, uncanny dodge and evasion. And here is my crazy idea, you can't use these spells when raging in combat, but arcane trickster could give you some much needed utility spells for the party. No reason you cannot cast invisibility on yourself, and then surprise, bonus action rage and concentrate on killing.

Stuff like mending, and mold earth great to have. And now you can have your BB or GFB, and this may help your damage output and save your 2 rages a day you have for when you truly need them.

[Eladain]

Ya, that's mostly the direction I'm leaning currently. Just sort of debating feat progression. BB/GFB were hardly set in stone. I was just toying with ways to add some stickiness to my character. High AC, HP, and Saves are all nice, but if you can't make creatures hit you then it doesn't really help your squishy party members.

Which is actually part of the reason I don't see myself skipping Fighter entirely. Those first 3 levels just have so much goodness. Fighting style, action surge, and BM maneuvers are just too good to pass up, in my opinion.

Arcane Trickster, while definitely flavorful, strays a bit too far from his barbarian origin rp wise. There are a few nice utility spells on that list, but I'll just have to hope the lore bard is feeling friendly.

Current Plan: Just listing the defense relevant stuff

Lvl 1 - Barb 1 - Rage, Unarmored Defense, Lucky (Halfling)
Lvl 2 - Barb 2 - Danger Sense
Lvl 3 - Barb 3 - Bear Totem
Lvl 4 - Barb 4 - +1 Con/Wis (AC becomes 19/21)
Lvl 5 - Barb 5 - Extra Attack
Lvl 6 - Rogue 1 - Expertise, SA
Lvl 7 - Rogue 2 - Cunning Action
Lvl 8 - Rogue 3 - Fancy footwork
Lvl 9 - Rogue 4 - Res(Wis)
Lvl 10 - Rogue 5 - Uncanny Dodge
Lvl 11 - Rogue 6 - Expertise
Lvl 12 - Rogue 7 - Evasion
Lvl 13 - Rogue 8 - +2 Con (AC becomes 20/22)

I may go 10 rogue for that next feat (shield master/tough), and the rest will probably just be in fighter for as long as the campaign runs. 2 AC more than FP+shield. Of course once you get into magic shields and armor they have the potential to surpass me by 1 assuming +3 both. Fort and Wis save proficiency and multiple ways to negate damage on dex saves(with advantage on most of those). Bear Resistances while raging. Respectable HP; the rogue levels water this down a bit, but the Barb start and max Con keep it on the + side. Decent battlefield mobility (Fast Movement, Uncanny dodge, fancy footwork).

I think that checks most of the boxes. Anything I'm overlooking?

[djreynolds]

Looks great. I might take resilient wisdom earlier, or grab that shield master sooner and get some mileage out of it.

But it looks very solid

[Eladain]

Looks great. I might take resilient wisdom earlier, or grab that shield master sooner and get some mileage out of it.

But it looks very solid

+1 Con/Wis and Res(Wis) at 4 and 9 are the biggest debate currently.

Shield master will probably replace +2 con at that level unless I am just in dire need of the Health and +1 AC. My only concern is how effective it will be with my low Str(athletics), even with expertise in it.

[djreynolds]

+1 Con/Wis and Res(Wis) at 4 and 9 are the biggest debate currently.

Shield master will probably replace +2 con at that level unless I am just in dire need of the Health and +1 AC. My only concern is how effective it will be with my low Str(athletics), even with expertise in it.

A thief with expertise in athletics with a 8 strength at level 20 is 11, the same as a fighter with a 20 strength.

I would take shield master now, expertise and advantage on strength checks while raging, you will prone people and you teammates will flourish

Resilient wisdom, I personally as a DM target weak wisdom saves on powerhouses, charm is very effective, even fear, all that jazz.

[Eladain]

A thief with expertise in athletics with a 8 strength at level 20 is 11, the same as a fighter with a 20 strength.

I would take shield master now, expertise and advantage on strength checks while raging, you will prone people and you teammates will flourish

Resilient wisdom, I personally as a DM target weak wisdom saves on powerhouses, charm is very effective, even fear, all that jazz.

While that his true at level 20, we're currently level 2, and not anticipating going beyond 15 or so. I also will not have expertise until CL7 as I'm going Barb 5 to start. That's where my hesitation comes from taking it 'too early' compared to the stat bump which would have a more immediate impact. That being said the advantage from Raging could make it worthwhile on its own. I don't have the numbers in front of me right at this moment. I had actually completely forgotten about that as well so thanks for the catch.

Time for the maths.

[Joe the Rat]

Expertise and high strength is good. Expertise and low strength is about as good as proficiency + strength.

Earliest you could get shield master is 4. You won't have expertise, so you're looking at +3 modifier (assuming proficiency), advantage while raging. At this point, SM would be more for the dex save and evasion features. If you aren't using your bonus action, trying to shove won't hurt.
If you were to add Rogue One earlier (personally, I'd not set a release date and start making trailers until well after principle shooting is underway... er, until you get Extra Attack), you could sport a +5 here... like being proficient with a 16 STR. this is what a point buy barbarian would be.

At 6, where you are planing for expertise, your bonus is +7, equivalent of 18 STR with proficiency. You'd push as hard as a straight fighter or barbarian. At 9 (your mid-late pickup for Sheild Master), you'll be +9 - holy crap that's a STR20 push! And so on...

Obviously, a Strength build with Expertise will be an absolute monster... adding 2-4 to those bonuses. But with expertise, you remain competitive with a straight class strength build. What you lack in brute force you make up for in technique. Sweep the leg.

[Eladain]

Expertise and high strength is good. Expertise and low strength is about as good as proficiency + strength.

Earliest you could get shield master is 4. You won't have expertise, so you're looking at +3 modifier (assuming proficiency), advantage while raging. At this point, SM would be more for the dex save and evasion features. If you aren't using your bonus action, trying to shove won't hurt.
If you were to add Rogue One earlier (personally, I'd not set a release date and start making trailers until well after principle shooting is underway... er, until you get Extra Attack), you could sport a +5 here... like being proficient with a 16 STR. this is what a point buy barbarian would be.

At 6, where you are planing for expertise, your bonus is +7, equivalent of 18 STR with proficiency. You'd push as hard as a straight fighter or barbarian. At 9 (your mid-late pickup for Sheild Master), you'll be +9 - holy crap that's a STR20 push! And so on...

Obviously, a Strength build with Expertise will be an absolute monster... adding 2-4 to those bonuses. But with expertise, you remain competitive with a straight class strength build. What you lack in brute force you make up for in technique. Sweep the leg.

I really appreciate you throwing the numbers together. It looks like I'd start getting pretty good mileage out of it @6. I'll probably try to slot it in at @9 then and bump back my Con increases. The early faux evasion would be nice, but Danger sense will at least give me advantage on *most* dex saves vs spells and traps. I think that coupled with bear totem resistances lessens the need for the early SM evasion.

So it's looking like the best approach to balance out the defenses and combat utility is...

lvl 4 - Res(wis)
lvl 9 - Shield Mastery
lvl 13 - +1 Con/Wis
lvl 15 - + 2 Con

[djreynolds]

Well I'm excited to see your build and how it turns out. I really like the barbarian now, it has much substance to the class, especially totem warrior. And dex barbarian is awesome, we have one is our party and he is such a thorn in the side of the enemy. And rogue goes so well.

So post your build and your exploits, swashbuckler will be a nice addition.