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shawshank
2016-07-11, 05:17 PM
Primal Disciple

Special thanks to Elricaltovilla for showing me some errors I made in rating the dexterity-based builds.
Special thanks to Upho for his contributions and suggestions, many of which are now in this guide.


The Primal Disciple is an archetype of the Barbarian class that significantly changes how you play the class. So much so that I thought a guide/handbook for the archetype was in order. This is a 3rd party archetype from Dreamscarred Press that lies in the Path of War: Expanded document.

New information you need to know to help in understanding Path of War
Initiation Modifier: Every Path of War archetype has one mental score as an initiation modifier. This is similar to a casting ability score but with one main difference. You do not require a minimum score to initiate all of your maneuvers. You could have a wisdom of 7 and still use all of your Primal Disciple maneuvers. However, it does affect the saving throw DC's as well as modify different skills used in maneuvers. It can even modify damage in certain instances. Deciding how to use your initiation modifier is sorta like chess. It is easy to learn but difficult to master.

For some preliminary matters, I want to lay out the rating system. This system was first used by Treantmonk in his Wizard, Druid, and Bard guides. The ratings are as follows:

RED(*): A very poor option. Should be avoided in nearly all cases.
ORANGE(**): A mediocre, or uncommonly useful option. Generally not worth it.
GREEN(***): A solid option. Good in most instances.
BLUE(****): An excellent option. Should be taken in nearly all cases.

Let me start by explaining why this archetype requires it's own guide. First, you lose all your rage powers except for the one gained at level 2. That's right folks, the rage powers you normally gained at 4th, 6th, 8th, etc...gone. You also give up fast movement and trap sense! This alone might have you thinking "Noway am I ever going to play this crap!" No rage powers on barbarians? How is that even a barbarian? Well, have no fear my friends. Not only can you replace nearly everything you lost, but you will gain even more! But before we get to the details let's look at the changes to the importance of stats you can expect.

Stats

Barbarian statistics are no longer as easy to quantify

Strength(****) - You are still a Barbarian and strength is still king. If they ever modify the Primal Disciple to allow an Urban variant then dexterity is probably just as good. Until then strength is better overall, though dexterity is still viable. Recommend 15-18 before race depending on point-buy.(Dump stat if going deadly agility)
Dexterity(***) - A dexterity based Primal Disciple can be quite powerful with Deadly Agility. Can not reach the potential of a strength-based build without an archetype that stacks with Primal Disciple to increase dexterity instead. Recommend 12-14 before race depending on point-buy.(15-18 if going Deadly Agility)
Constitution(***) - Raging Vitality is still good and you still want to take it so nothing changes here. Recommend 15+ after race by the time you get Raging Vitality regardless of point-buy.
Intelligence(**) - Not quite the dump stat it was. You need enough skill points to max the discipline skills you want. If you decide to focus on maneuvers that requires only a few different skills, this becomes a dump stat. Recommend 7-10 before race depending on point-buy.
Wisdom(**)/Wisdom(****) - This one depends on how you want to build the Primal Disciple. Wisdom is your initiation modifier. See above description for more information. Do not let will saves necessarily determine this score as there are maneuvers that replace and/or improve saves as immediate actions. Recommend 10-14 before race depending on point-buy.
Charisma(**) - Generally a dump stat even though intimidation builds are available. Primal Disciple adds Diplomacy as a class skill and if you go heavily in Golden Lion counters then charisma is GREEN(***). Recommend 7-12 before race depending on point-buy.

Sample Stat Arrays:

15 point buys:
Strength-based combat engine. Focused on 2 skills only for maneuvers. Non-social.
Str: 17 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Int: 7 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Dexterity version:
Str: 8 Dex: 18 Con: 13 Int: 7 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Strength-based balanced build. Focused on multiple skills for maneuvers and other interactions. Non-social.
Str: 15 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Dexterity version:
Str: 7 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 13 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Strength/Charisma leader build. Focused on social interactions and battlefield manipulation. Buffing teammates over debuffing enemies.
Str: 15 Dex: 12 Con: 13 Int: 7 Wis: 12 Cha: 14

Dexterity version except you do not lose Wisdom
Str: 7 Dex: 16 Con: 13 Int: 7 Wis: 14 Cha: 14

20 point buys:
Strength-based combat engine. Focused on 3 skills. Non-social.
Str: 17 Dex: 13/14 Con: 13/14 Int: 8 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Dexterity version:
Str: 7 Dex: 18 Con: 15 Int: 9 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Strength-based balanced build. Focused on multiple skills for maneuvers and other interactions. Non-social.
Str: 16 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Dexterity version:
Str: 7 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 14 Cha: 7

Strength/Charisma leader build. Focused on social interactions and battlefield manipulation. Buffing teammates over debuffing enemies.
Str: 16 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 7 Wis: 12 Cha: 14

Dexterity version except you do not lose Wisdom
Str: 7 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 7 Wis: 14 Cha: 14

Races

Core Races

-Dwarf(***) - They've got slow speed but they are the same speed as Humans in medium armor. Solid bonuses(+2con/wis) with a great negative(-2cha) unless you build Golden Lion. Darkvision is great. +2 saves vs spells is even better. Also, there is nothing wrong with more rage though the skill point may benefit you more.
-Elf(**) - Certainly not good, but better than before. Penalty to Con makes Raging Vitality impossible. The bonus to Dex and Int are far more useful than before with Deadly Agility and more uses for skill points. Favored Class bonus is actually feasible without fast movement though I probably would not recommend it.
-Gnome(*) - There is no saving this race. I honestly think it is even worse for a Primal Disciple than before.
-Half Elf(***) - Floating +2 is always nice. Skill Focus(Acrobatics) is no longer a bad bonus feat. With no trap sense or rage powers the FCB is terrible. Human is also worthless. It's either elf or take the skill point/hp.
-Halfling(***) - Surprising effective with Deadly Agility. With it, the -str is just fine and the +2 charisma is great if you build for Golden Lion. +1 to all saves is always great to have and being small makes you more accurate with attacks. Even better if Fleet of Foot is on the table. Same issue with FCB. Take the Hp/Sp.
-Half-Orc(****) - A floating +2 and Darkvision are already solid. The ability to pick up a +2 to all saves is just icing. The FCB is decent enough as well.
-Human(****) - Ah, good ole human. Floating +2, a free feat and skill point. The FCB is completely worthless now though so take a hp or another sp if you need. Heart of the fields is a solid substitution for skilled by not critical. Focused Study is also a solid option if investing heavily into skill-based counters. Can even pick up Darkvision if allowed.

I will not be covering other races as they have been covered in many Barbarian guides before. The reviews I have posted above should give you the basic understanding needed to adjust for additional races on your own.

Class Features

What you keep and what you lose/trade.

Rage/Greater Rage/Tireless Rage/Mighty Rage(****): You would not be a barbarian without it so, of course, you keep!
Weapon/Armor Proficiency(***): - No change.
Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge(***): No change.
Damage Reduction(***): No change.
Indomitable Will(****): No change but I wish you got it sooner!
Skills(**): Hey you get diplomacy now!
Fast movement(***): Gone.. bye bye =(...well.. maybe not. :wink:
Trap Sense(**): Gone... Who cares.. was lame.
Rage Power(***): Well, you only get one and it has to be a level 2 one at that. However, you could take the Extra Rage Power feat to complete at least one Rage Line.
Bonus Feats(****)- Absolutely nothing wrong with a bonus feat at 1st and 6th level. They are all Path of War feats but that is not a bad thing!
Maneuvers(****) - It's the reason you are here! You get 4 known disciplines and a related class skill. Golden Lion(Diplomacy), Piercing Thunder(Acrobatics),Primal Fury(Survival), and Thrashing Dragon(Acrobatics).

Skills
The importance of several skills has changed. So, we need to reevaluate them.

Acrobatics(Dex)(****) - Was always important. If you decide to take lots of Acrobatics-based skills, it jumps in power.
Autohypnosis(Wis)(***) – If you have this skill as a class skill it is because you went with Sleeping Goddess/Riven Hourglass. Riven Hourglass only has 1 (albeit good) skill-based maneuver but Sleeping goddess has 3, and they are all excellent.
Climb(Str)(**) - When fool's errand is released this could change. Until, then....
Craft(Int) (*): - Shattered Mirror (****): is a very good Discipline but it is based on intelligence which is not going to be very high. Still, if you need to get a high check you can buy items that grant a +5 or higher bonus (if the GM allows custom magic items).
Diplomacy(Cha)(****) - If you want to be a Barbarian leader who instills morale into his party/army while granting them free attacks and moves during your turn and deflecting attacks against them as interrupts then this is your skill. Otherwise dump(*) it along with your Charisma stat. Note that barbarians can ALWAYS use discipline skill abilities, even while raging. This is on page 35 of the Path of War: Expanded document as a exception to the rule about Barbarian Rage and certain skills.
Handle Animal(Cha) (*)– If you go for animal ally this is great(****), otherwise it’s not.
Intimidate(Cha)(**) – Intimidate builds are available as well as disciplines that use intimidate(Black Seraph, Eternal Guardian)(****). Can take a feat to add strength as well. Otherwise, not much use.
Knowledge(Nature)(Int)(**) – Int is generally a dump stat. If you have a decent int score, this is not a bad place to put points for identifying animals etc.
Perception(Wis)(****)– Was already one of the best skills in the game. Used by Silver Crane(****) and Solar Wind(***) disciplines. Makes it just that more useful if you decide to go into these disciplines with a trait/Martial Tradition.
Ride(Dex)(**) - If you go for animal ally this is great(****), otherwise it’s not.
Survival(**) - Remember when I said that most of your rage powers are replaced by Disciplines. Yeah, that would be Primal Fury and it is keyed off of Survival. It is still not incredibly important as very few maneuvers use the survival skill. However, there are some so if you have the skill points, not a bad way to spend them.
Swim(Str)(*) - No discipline use and you should be strong enough to swim without skill ranks.

New Traits:
Agile Dancer(Social)(****) - Replace Acrobatics checks with Perform(Dance) and use higher of Dex/Cha when making this check.

Combat Training(Combat)(****) - Gain one 1st level maneuver from any discipline. Does not make you a real initiator but can add a bit of a boost at first level. One of the best ones to take adds a +2 to a single saving throw as an interrupt. That is arguably better than any of the +1 to one type of save traits as it can be used once an encounter. It is also available outside of combat though, if caught flat-footed, you can not initiate maneuvers.

Practiced Initiator (Combat)(***) - bumps your initiator level up when multi-classing. Good, but there are better traits.

Unorthodox Method (Regional, Any)(****) - Let's you replace any discipline you normally gain with an archetype with another one. You are going to use this for almost every character you make. Depending on the style of fighting you choose, you are going to want to trade out a discipline that does not fit with another one that either does or shores up defensive weaknesses you might have. Thrashing Dragon, for example, should be traded out immediately if you intend to fight two-handed.

Bonus Feats:
You gain a bonus feat at 1st and 6th level. You must meet all requirements to take these feats. I will split these up into feats you could take at 1st and those you must be 6th to take. You will notice that you have 1 feat at each level that is ideal for a standard barbarian while the others are specific to a certain build.

1st:
Martial Power(***) - Works like power attack except instead of damage you gain temporary hps. Increased by 50% when using a shield. Also counts as Combat Expertise when qualifying for feats. You must make an attack when using this so no full-defense temp hp stacking. Gets much better with Enduring Protector if used in an AOO build.

Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting(****) - Allows you to take the two-weapon fighting chain using strength instead of dexterity to qualify and allows you to use ANY 1-handed weapon in your offhand and treat it as light. Two-handed builds are generally better for strength but this is awesome with two of your disciplines.

Seize the Opportunity(****) - Requires Combat Reflexes as your first level feat. Let's you use Vital Strike or even a combat maneuver in place of your AOO. You can not use this to bullrush move however as you can not leave your square. Incredible in an AOO-focused build and still very strong regardless.

Victorious Recovery(****) - Once an encounter you can gain your wisdom mod in used maneuvers when you kill something. Barbarians seem likely to kill something in an encounter right? Best used after using at least as many maneuvers as your wisdom modifier.

6th
Enduring Protector(***) - Requires Combat Reflexes, Martial Power - When you kill a monster with an AOO you gain temp hps = to the monster HD or your Martial Power feat, whichever is higher. These hps do not stack with other temp hp gainers. Again, if you want to play the get hit to hit AOO builds this is possibly BLUE(****)

Martial Charge(****) - Let's you make a Martial Strike in place of a base attack at the end of a charge. I wonder if there are any high damage strikes..

Path of War/General Feats as they apply to Primal Disciples
I have decided to more thoroughly review Path of War feats and include the ratings for feats you are probably familiar with already.
You will have a total of 10 feats* from 1-20 and only half that for the first 10 levels. This means that your feat choices are critical to being as effective as possible. Fortunately, Path of War replaced Rage Powers with maneuvers which gives you a great deal of versatility from Discipline to Discipline. So, regardless of the rating a feat receives, consider it in relationship with the build you want to achieve.
*Not including racial bonus feats/bonus POW feats
***Please let me know if I have missed a feat you want reviewed. I tried to hit the ones I thought would commonly be taken but I am sure I missed a few.


All archer feats(Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Deadly Aim/Snap Shot etc) - Generally bad BUT if you go with a thrower build, there is actually some nice discipline support for it and it gets much better(****). However, this is feat intensive,much like mounted charger, so if you go this route then you go pretty much all in.

Cornugon Smash(****) (Power Attack, Intim 6 ranks) - Free Intimidate whenever you damage an opponent with power attack. Action Economy saving ftw!

Cleave/Great Cleave(*) - Were never great feats to begin with and maneuvers do this better anyway.

Combat Expertise(*)/Improved Trip(***)/Greater Trip(***) - Take Martial Power as your bonus feat to replace Combat Expertise and this is solid to great in a dedicated AOO/Trip build.

Combat Reflexes(****) - Mandatory in an AOO build. Otherwise, not so good(**).

Damnation Feats(****) - If you want to intimidate, look no further. Caution, your DM/GM may not allow. If they do:
Damnation feats have stacking effects based on how many you take.
Soulless Gaze - +2 intimidate checks, If you possess two damnation feats, additional intimidates on the same target increase the fear effect one step from shaken to frightened to panicked.
Fiendskin - Adds resist 5 to an energy type. Must be one your patron also has. If you possess two damnation feats, add an additional energy type or increase the existing one by 5.

Dazzyling Display(**) - 30 foot intimidate is good. Requires Weapon Focus which is bad and a Full-Round action is worse. There are also several maneuvers and even a stance that allow you to hit all enemies within reach. Combining those with Cornugon Smash is the superior choice.

Discipline Focus(***) - Effectively Weapon Specialization(discipline weapons) with a +2 to the save DC's of your maneuvers. The damage bonus is nice but, with the right discipline, the +2 to save DC's can be amazing(****).

Dodge(**) - Nothing wrong with a little bonus AC but one of your best builds WANTS to get hit.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency(**) - You really do not have the feats. Plus, there are excellent martial weapons already. I can not recommend this. Also, completely worthless if allowing inferior ioun stones. Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone treats any weapon as a Martial Weapon for 1.5k Gold.

Extra Readied Maneuver(***) - You have a smaller number of readied maneuvers than a full martial initiator. If you have the feats to spare, this can even things up.

Extra Rage(***) - 6 rounds is significant. I would never argue with anyone taking this feat once though I think you will be fine without it.

Extra Rage Power(****) - So you gave up all those rage powers for disciplines and you LOVE your disciplines but it sure would be nice if I could just get one Rage power chain going. If that is you, then this is the feat you want to take! See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233032-PF-Anger-Management-A-Pathfinder-Guide-to-the-Barbarian for a rated list of rage powers.

Furious Focus(****) - Excellent for two-handed style as it works with strikes. Terrible for two-weapon/sword&board(*) as it's only usable two-handed.

Fuse Styles(***) - Let's you change a style at the same time you change a stance. You can always be in a stance whereas you have to take a swift action to assume a style anyway. So, if you are in the same stance 90% of the time, this is marginal(**).

Giant Slayer(***) - You do not provoke AOO from the target of your charge as well as gaining a +1 to hit for every size category larger the target is than you. Solid feat. Would be even better if maneuvers didn't let you avoid AOO's much of the time already.

Great Fort/Lighting Reflexes/Improved versions(*) - Not worth it. Your fort save is already going to be huge and reflexes is the least important save in general.

Haft Strike(****) - Take a -2 AC to threaten your entire reach with no hole. Grab yourself a reach weapon and this feat. Then get big.. really big! Excellent!

Hone Weapon(****) - What weapon specialization should have been. Great for two-hand combat but amazing for two-weapon/ranged attackers.

Improved/Bleeding/Blinding/Deafening/Exhausting/Sickening/Staggering/Stunning/Tiring/etc Critical(**) - These feats are pretty cool. If you went for a crit fisher build you could certainly pick one or two of these. Note, you can only apply one critical feat to a single critical attack. Critical Mastery requires 14th level fighter and, honestly, these feats would be better served in a build with lots of bonus feats, which you do not have. Not a bad idea to snag keen on your weapon(s) though.

Improved/Greater(Combat maneuvers other than trip)(**) - I am not saying you can not take these and do some fun things. You can get enough strength to Overrun/Grapple/Bull Rush most things. However, maneuvers allow you to do a lot of these things already and Barbarians are known for doing damage. You only have so many feats and I can not recommend any course that lowers it. If you want to play a battlefield control melee that is not trip/AOO, I suggest a myrmidon fighter as it has enough feat support to include one of these options.

Improved Initiative(***) - Going first never hurts!

Intimidating Prowess(***) - If you intend on intimidating, it would be hard not to take this too.

Iron Will/Improved (***) - You get some nice boosts to Will saves, but the will save is the most important save for you to improve since it is not naturally high. Unless you have sufficient counters in your build to protect you, I suggest both of these at some point in your build, even if you have to give up damage. Note: For a Barbarian, the superstition rage power is probably the best bet.


Martial Training I-VI(***) - Adds another discipline with initiator level equal to half your class level + the ability score modifier the discipline skill associated with the chosen discipline uses. Can be really useful but, as feat starved as you already are, difficult to recommend for all but the most basic builds. If you take all 6 feats, you gain 9-11 maneuvers, 3-5 stances known. You can ready 6 maneuvers(1 per feat) and, as usual, all stances.

Mounted Combat/Ride-By Attack/Spirited Charge(****) - Excellent if going for a mounted build. Careful with your mount though. If you have not taken the Animal Ally feat, your mount will die very easily. Also, if you go this build with a mount your feats will be extremely tight. The damage is real though!

Nature Soul(**)/Animal Ally(****)/Boon Companion(***) - Nature soul gives a decent bonus to 2 skills. It isn't particularly useful to you however it is required for Animal Ally, which grants you a level -3 animal companion from a limited list. The third gives you a full strength druid equivalent animal companion. If using the list given, the camel is the only large mount. I would recommend taking a 1 level dip in a class with a full strength animal companion(such as druid) for a more robust list of choices. If you are a small Barbarian, then the wolf is excellent.

Piranha Strike(***) - Dexterity Power Attack. Not as critical for two-weapon as you get less bonus damage.

Power Attack(****) - Absolutely irreplaceable with a two-handed build. Should always be the first feat you take. Great with all other builds as well, though you can afford to take it much later.

Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting/Double Slice(****) - Take these 2 feats to get all your two-weapon fighting based off of strength.

Raging Vitality(****) - Greatly increases your survivability while raging. Better than toughness while raging, and does not shut down rage while unconscious.. This is important because if you are already operating at bonus hps from raging and you get knocked unconscious, your rage will end and you, pretty much, auto-die from the loss of temporary con. You do not have to take this the first few levels but certainly before level 10.

Shatter Defenses(**) - Would be better if it allowed your allies to treat them as flat-footed. As it is, you would be better off using maneuvers to accomplish similar or better conditions that your allies also benefit from.

Skill Focus(Discipline skill with several skill checks)(****) - Shocking, I know! There are several in the 4 base disciplines presented. If you take a Martial Tradition and/or Trait you can gain disciplines with several strong counters that use a skill check in place of AC/Saves/Combat Maneuvers and more! However, if you are not big on counters or only take ones that have no skill requirements, this becomes pointless(*).

Step Up/Following Step/Step Up and Strike(****) - Cool movement feats that can greatly increase the AOO build damage once you get Step Up and Strike. Difficult to get all the feats in you need but certainly very good. Still solid(***) in a non-AOO build.

Toughness(*) - Take Raging Vitality instead.

Two-Weapon/Imp Two-Weapon/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting(****) - If you focus on the Piercing Thunder/Thrashing Dragon disciplines, these feats are incredible. Can base it off dex or str. You will need at least 4 total feats to get this completely going. Possibly 3 if you do not take Greater.

Vital/Improved Vital/Greater Vital Strike(****) - Used in conjunction with Seize the Opportunity, In an AOO build, enlarged with big ole reach weapons, these feats are incredible. Otherwise, they are bad(*). Discipline Strikes are better.

Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility(***) - Takes these 2 feats to get all your two-weapon fighting based off of dexterity. If an Urban Barbarian archetype shows up that will work with Primal Disciple, could be awesome.

Weapon Focus(***) - Solid feat but you have so few to choose from. You could take power attack/furious focus/weapon focus/raging vitality at 1, 3, 5, 7th levels and be just fine however.

Weapon Group Adaptation(**) - Let's you add another weapon to a discipline group. Useful if you want to focus on only one weapon and not all your disciplines use it. But, even the, only really gives you a +2 to save DC's. Unless the weapon is just irreplaceable, I do not recommend taking this feat and/or the weapon.


Disciplines

Disciplines added here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495623-Path-of-War-Expanded-Archetype-Discipline-Guide

Advanced Study(****) - Let's you learn additional maneuvers/stances based on your initiator level instead of the archetype chart meaning you can use this at higher levels to gain 7-9 levels maneuvers/stances or just learn lower level ones faster. Will be adding an additional link for Discipline levels 6-9 for archetype classes as well as a short guide/handbook for possible uses of Advanced Study.

Path of War Style Feat Chains(****) - Adds a bunch of additional styles you can use in conjunction with your disciplines. Will be adding an additional link for a guide/handbook to these styles when I complete it.

***I will also assume Leadership(*****) doesn't exist****

Example Builds:
*If you have a build request you can list it here. I will either PM you if it is a simple adjustment or add the build to the guide. Also, if you have a build you think is better than mine, list it! I will list it as well and it might just replace one I listed. I will give credit to the creator of all builds added in this way.
Thanks,

Two-Handed(Simple):


Trait: Unorthodox Method – Thrashing Dragon for Riven Hourglass/Sleeping Goddess – Both use Autohypnosis(Wisdom) - Can take both with a Martial Tradition trading out Golden Lion or Piercing Thunder.
1 – Power Attack
1(Bonus) – Victorious Recovery
2 – Lesser Beast Totem Rage Power
3 – Furious Focus
5 – Weapon Focus(Greatsword)
6(Bonus) – Martial Charge
7 – Raging Vitality
9 – Extra Rage Power – Beast Totem
11 – Extra Rage Power – Greater Beast Totem
13 – Iron Will
15 – Improved Iron Will
17 – Hone Weapon
19 – Advanced Study(9th level)
Adds in Path of War feats without taking old-school barbarian players out of their comfort zone.

Two-Weapon(Strength):

Take Martial Tradition to trade out Golden Lion for Riven Hourglass/Sleeping Goddess. Can also use trait if you do not like the roleplaying requirements of the traditions.
1 – Two-Weapon Fighting
1(Bonus) – Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting
2 - Lesser Beast Totem Rage Power
3 – Double Slice
5 – Weapon Focus(Kukri)
6(Bonus) – Martial Charge
7 – Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9 – Extra Rage Power – Beast Totem
11 – Extra Rage Power – Greater Beast Totem
13 – Iron Will
15 – Improved Iron Will
17 – Hone Weapon/Raging Vitality
19 – Advanced Study(9th level)
Riskier build as it does not take Raging Vitality early in lieu of damage. Adjust as necessary to compensate. However, because of counters, should be able to stick around without raging vitality.

Two-Handed(Strength)(AOO/Guisarme):
You want to swap out Thrashing Dragon for Eternal Guardian using a trait or Martial Tradition. Also a good idea to pick up Riven Hourglass or Sleeping Goddess swapping out Golden Lion.
1 – Combat Reflexes
1(Bonus) – Seize the Opportunity
2 – Rage Power – Quick Reflexes
3 – Power Attack
5 – Furious Focus
6(Bonus) – Martial Charge
7 – Vital Strike
9 – Raging Vitality
11 – Improved Vital Strike
13 – Extra Rage Power – Come and Get Me
15 – Haft Strike
17 – Greater Vital Strike
19 – Advanced Study (Oath of Eternity)
Very fun build when using the 5th level stance from Piercing Thunder. Creates a zone of AOO that allows for lots of attack of opportunity fun. Add in Come and Get Me and you should have no issues using most if not all of your AOO per round. Eternal Guardian has boosts/counters that increase the number of AOO you can make in a round as well. With a +6 Dex item and a starting dex of 14 should be able to make at least 7 AOO while raging a round, using vital strike+ for each. The damage is real!
For a more lockdown build, you can substitute out the Vital Strike Line for Martial Power/Improved Trip/Great Trip to keep multiple target prone + added survivability at the expense of damage.

Kiton2
2016-07-11, 08:06 PM
You are telling DMs to consider banning the following things. Literally,
I have added an additional color(GOLD*****) for abilities that should be considered for banning. and proceed to mark the following as gold:
>The Dexterity Ability Score
>Humans
>Skill Focus
>Thrashing Dragon

How can we take your arguments against discipline mastery(?!?) and deadly agility at face value when you've set the bar for what you consider broken at "an ability score", "skill focus" and "humans"?

upho
2016-07-13, 12:01 AM
Nice to finally see a guide for one of the PoW:E non-initiator archetypes! So kudos for the initiative.

While there are several details I agree with, I also believe the claims in the introduction are unfortunately either misleading or simply not true. And since those claims seem to have influenced most of your ratings to various degrees, I think there are some serious flaws in the guide whenever that influence shines through. In summary, IME and IMO the two main issues are:

An oddly biased view of class balance, despite the guide's stated focus on the first 12-13 levels. It appears that for example more optimized barbs, bloodragers, bards, magi or alchemists, not to mention summoners or full casters, have actually only rarely or never been present in your games.
A myopic view of what makes an initiator strong, being overly focused on the value of having a single discipline skill (Acrobatics) and even more on the supposed superiority of one feat (Deadly Agility) and one stat (Dex), while largely missing the frankly serious trade-offs associated with those options. This myopic view also often fails to recognize the many absolutely awesome potential synergies between maneuvers and the barb's remaining class features which the archetype can give much more support. Instead, the guide currently largely appears to be proverbially stuck staring, wide-eyed and gaping with awe, at those three components which actually have much greater synergy with the four other PoW:E archetypes for Paizo martials (Ambush Hunter, Hidden Blade, Monk of the Silver Fist, Myrmidon).

In greater detail, here are the claims, ratings and descriptions I believe to be most obviously distorted by these two issues:


In a game from 1-13, the Path of War class will completely dominate the game and no non-path of war class will be able to stop them from doing it. It makes the DM's job incredibly difficult as anything balanced for non-Path of War classes is a cakewalk and wrecked by the path of war classes. Anything that challenges the Path of War classes kills half the party. This is going to happen even without deadly agility. Adding them in takes it up a notch to the point where it is almost impossible to kill a Path of War class by anything within 4-5 CR at all. I suppose if you made every encounter 10 swarms with melee immunity, that would certainly help.. though there are several disciplines that can do aoe elemental/force damage to deal with it.. but if you do that, then any other martial class is completely negated with no way to overcome it.. aside from maybe a rogue with a wand of fireballs. Perhaps, I am missing something. I encourage people to come up with creative ways to challenge these classes on the battlefield. We can have a math experiment to see where weaknesses can be found.This definitely not my experience. Several Paizo classes can be considerably stronger than initiators even if only looking at levels 1 to 12 or 13, with the possible exception of certain corner cases during the very first two levels (at least until the PoW errata has arrived). The main difference between initiator classes and the potentially stronger Paizo classes is that initiators generally have a much higher optimization floor (ie they're pretty strong with a minimum of optimization), while the stronger Paizo classes have a much higher optimization ceiling. Although this difference becomes more apparent in higher levels, as you later hint at, it can still be very noticeable as early as 6th level, or even earlier in the case of for example summoners or druids.

As an example, in my current game I've flat out banned spells above 6th and full caster progression, but allow basically everything from PoW/E (and virtually anything else on a case-by-case basis) and give several combat feats for free. The party consists of a hexblade magus, a witch/coven agent (see my sig), a wrathblood (see sig) primalist bloodrager, a "mad bomber" alchemist and a warder, and it's frankly the most balanced 3.5/PF party I've seen so far. Granted, all but one of my players are very experienced, and they all have mechanically strong characters and are generally very good at teamwork, but they're not power gamers and their characters aren't truly high-op. And if you do some digging into the many threads on PoW/E here, you'll find that most people put initiators squarely in T3, just as you did.

Also keep in mind that "almost impossible to kill by anything within 4-5 CR" is generally the truth with a party consisting of any reasonably well-built and played classes of T3 or higher, no PoW classes needed. (At 8th level, the witch, bloodrager and warder I DM for killed a CR 15 dragon in a straight up fight in less than 3 rounds, and though the warder was very close to get himself killed while trying to protect the others, it was very much the witch and bloodrager that made the fight a lot easier than many people seem to believe an APL +8 CR encounter can be.)


Now, if you are starting a game at 12+ then Deadly Agility is pretty much fine. At this point, the Tier 1 classes are starting to perform miracles in front of your eyes so being dexterity-sad is less of an issue. It IS still an issue... just not as big of one. This should also help you understand how powerful normally mundane feats such as skill focus and master work tools can get. All 20 released Disciplines are based on one of 4 ability scores as of now.
/snip/
If you are somehow still not convinced that Deadly Agility/Agile is not broken with Path of War, at least the first 10-11 levels or so then read my reviews of the disciplines.Heh, I'm sorry to say I'm convinced of the opposite - Deadly Agility is perfectly OK and definitely not anyway near broken, with or without other PoW content. Heck, I even give Finesse and Piranha Strike for free in my game, and Dex-based melee builds still remain generally less powerful than Str-based ones. :smalltongue:

To understand why this is the case, simply count the number of ways you can increase Str and the number of ways you can increase Dex, and then compare the investments needed to use each as main combat stat, and how much various builds may profit from each stat. Even if not limited to the specific case of a barb without access to Urban Barb, you'll find that Str can be boosted far beyond Dex, requires far less investments to use effectively (basically only Power Attack), and has a lot more numerous and significantly more effective melee combat options to choose from (such as combat maneuver feats requiring Power Attack, size increases, Dragon Ferocity, Horn of the Criosphinx, Eldritch Heritage (Orc bloodline) and much more).

And while AC and Ref are nice, they're generally the least important defense values for an initiator like the Primal Disciple who has access to effective (not Dex-skill dependent) counters against weapon-based attacks and gets the largest Con and HP boosts in the game (d12 hit die and rage). Similarly, with the exception of Tempest Gale which largely requires a high Dex for a high SoH, none of the other disciplines are actually dependent on a high skill value in order to be used effectively. In general, I'd say they're more dependent on having a high initiator modifier (Wis in this case). And even more importantly, in the case of a 1st-13th level Primal Disciple who gains relatively few maneuvers and thus has to rely more on non-maneuver tools in combat than full initiators, a Str build can afford far more interesting and effective such tools than a Dex build can, as mentioned above.

So with or without PoW options, Str remains the preferable main combat stat for a large majority of melee builds. If this wasn't the case, you'd see for example a lot more spectacular un-rogue example builds than you currently do. The only significant exceptions to this are magi (which can work at least equally good Dex-based as Str-based), and some builds of already highly Dex focused classes (again un-rogue and certain stalker builds), although the latter category still often struggles with all the investments needed just to get up to the baseline of Str-based combatants.

In short, Dex is far from the "god stat" you seem to claim it is, especially in the case of the barb archetype this guide is about.


So, based on this, you notice quickly that only one physical ability score is used for discipline skill checks and that is dexterity.And soon also Str and Climb with the brilliant Fool's Errand! :smalltongue:


Acrobatics - 4(class skill) + 5(Dex mod) + 3(skill focus).Nitpick: you get a +3 bonus to a class skill you have ranks in, not 4.


GOLD(*****): A broken option. Yell with glee if your DM does not ban it.Seriously, the only broken option mentioned so far in this guide is Leadership. I'd call it grossly misleading to describe any of the other options you've marked "GOLD" as broken, as they're not even OP. (Besides, if the fact your DM has missed to identify and/or ban an actually broken option makes you "yell with glee", in most groups this probably means you should do something else which doesn't let you ruin the fun for the other participants as easily. And probably also consider working on your relations to the other people in your group and your own morale... :smallamused:)




Strength(****)/Strength(*) - That's right folks, with the advent of Deadly Agility from Path of War, your could completely dump strength and do great damage with two-weapon fighting!And with the advent of Prodigious Two-Weapon Fighting, you can do even greater damage with TWF and Str! AND you'll be able to do things besides damage, such as control and debuffing, a lot better than a Dex build as well! :smallwink:


Dexterity(*****)/Dexterity(***) - A dexterity based Primal Disciple can be quite broken with Deadly Agility being allowed. If not allowed, it turns back into more of a standard Barbarian stat.Again, no. Deadly Agility certainly doesn't make the Primal Disciple anyway near broken. It doesn't even make a stalker or a hidden blade broken!


Charisma(**) - Generally a dump stat though intimidation builds are available. Primal Disciple adds Diplomacy as a class skill and if you go heavily in Golden Lion charisma is GREEN(***).You don't need a high Cha for an effective demoralization build. With the high Str a barb can achieve, you can even dump Cha and still easily get your Intimidate high enough to be nearly or actually unbeatable by anything you'll ever face.


-Halfling(***) - Very solid race if Deadly Agility is allowed. With it, the -str is just fine and the +2 charisma is great if you build for Golden Lion. +1 to all saves is always great to have and being small makes you more accurate with attacks. BLUE(****) in a two-weapon fighting build. Even better if Fleet of Foot is on the table. Same issue with FCB. Take the Hp/Sp.Unless maybe if you plan on a mounted build (which would likely be a pretty poor idea for a Primal Disciple), the halfling is a poor choice. Being small and always lagging one size category behind is a huge thing (pun intended) for barbs as well as almost all other melee focused builds. Reach is king. I'd instead have a look a DSP's races and put them into the guide, since most games that allow PoW seem to allow Psionics and most other DSP material as well. I especially recommend you take a long hard look at the half-giant and ask yourself whether the halfling really deserves a blue rating in a barb guide, Deadly Agility or not...


-Half-Orc(**) - Maybe I am being a bit too hard on the Half-Orc. A floating +2 and darkvision might be enough to qualify for GREEN(***) status by itself. For now I will say it does not. The FCB is decent enough as well.Compared to the other core classes, this should at least be green IMO. Remember also that H-orcs have Sacred Tattoo and can just add Fate's Favored for +2 to all saves, straight out of the box. Yeah, that's a pretty big thing.


-Human(****) - Ah, good ole human. Floating +2, a free feat and skill point. The FCB is completely worthless now though so take a hp or another sp if you need. Heart of the fields is a solid substitution for skilled by not critical. If Focused Study is allowed, Human becomes GOLD(*****). I bet that made you say "huh?". You will see why soon enough.While Focused Study may indeed be nifty for a build highly focused on skill-maneuvers, it's far from broken. I'd probably rate it green or blue depending on build (the freely chosen bonus feat can easily be worth more).





Rage Power(***): Well, you only get one and it has to be a level 2 one at that. So, basically take Energy Resistance or Reckless Abandon and call it a day. Well, I guess you could pick up a grappling one if you really wanted it. I will leave that to the other Barbarian handbooks as this one doesn't care too much about rage powers tbh.Three words: Extra Rage Power. Rage powers are the strongest melee options in the game after maneuvers, and some of them can be even stronger in the right combinations. CaGM!, Superstition, Witch Hunter, Boar's Charge, Spell Sunder, Savage Dirty Trick, Internal Fortitude etc can still be awesome for a Primal Disciple. They can also help make your full attacks considerably more powerful, allowing you to forgo strikes in favor of boosts and counters for even better offense and defense. (At least if you're Str based...)


Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting*** - Allows you to take the two-weapon fighting chain using strength instead of dexterity to qualify and allows you to use ANY 1-handed weapon in your offhand and treat it as light. Two-handed builds are generally better for strength but this is interesting. I almost marked it orange but there are ways to increase weapon damage enough to take another look at having full size 1-handers in both hands.If you're going to do TWF as a Primal Disciple, this is the way to go in most cases. Again, regardless of Deadly Agility. Also consider what you can do with a shield (or two)...


Seize the Opportunity*** - Requires Combat Reflexes as your first level feat. Let's you use Vital Strike or even a combat maneuver in place of your AOO. You can not use this to bullrush move however as you can not leave your square. If used in an AOO build this becomes BLUE(****) though I would have a hard time playing a Barbarian this way myself.This feat is extremely powerful, make no mistake. On a more control focused Primal Disciple, I think it's probably the option in the guide closest to actually deserve a "broken" rating after Leadership. Just imagine what you can do with this combined with a high Str, a good reach (35+ ft.), a few dirty trick feats and CaGM. Yeah, your DM is gonna cry...


If I am being honest, Myrmidon Fighter (Path of War Fighter Archetype) does this fighting style WAY better but being a dex based barbarian is still pretty awesome. Thematically it works out really well and, if I can get Dreamscarred Press to include a way for Urban Barbarian to stack, it might even be better than Fighter. For now, though, it simply eases the pain of having a delay on getting Deadly Agility to be able to Rage and get a decent strength score.Yes, the myrmidon and every other PoW:E archetype for Pazio martials can do Dex much better. Save the Dex builds for those guides, without Urban Barb compatibility I frankly think they don't belong in this guide except maybe as a footnote or niche build example at the end.


Piranha Strike(***) - Since we are already on the 3rd party bandwagon. It is the dex based version of power attack. Not quite as good since you do not get the 2-handed bonus plus... well just look at the next couple of feats.Since when did Piranha Strike become 3rd party?


Lunge(****) - Reach is never bad! I would recommend taking this at 11th+ more than likely. There are maneuvers and even a style that allow you to attack everything in REACH with both of your melee weapons! Yeah you heard that right.. I will let your mind wander on that.No, reach is nothing less than awesome. That said, that is only true if it gives you threatening reach, which Lunge unfortunately doesn't. So while it isn't complete crap, it doesn't deserve a rating anyway near the one you've given it.


THRASHING DRAGON WHIRLWIND(*****) - req previous 2 style feats, 11 ranks Acrobatics - Otherwise known as the room clear style when using the lunge feat! As a full-round action you can make attack EVERYTHING in reach with both weapons at full base attack bonus with no penalties for two-weapon fighting! You tell me... was it worth the wait? Let your DM know you are going this way.. so he can ban it.This isn't nearly as powerful as you make it seem, and definitely not by itself. If you can kill most opponents with two TWF hits, your DM is doing something wrong. In addition, you need both great reach and great damage in order to make this fly, meaning you need great size and Str. Definitely not something a Dex-based mini-barb (halfling) will make shine...


Discipline Mastery(*****) - You can take 10 on any Discipline skill you have 8+ ranks in. If your heart did not skip a beat, you have not read the disciplines yet!My heart didn't skip a beat, sorry. Yes, it's good, but so are many other PoW feat options. Again, definitely not broken or even OP.


AOO Build:(Two-Handed vs Two-Weapon will only change WHEN you take these feats, not if.)Huh? What will change when you take which feats?


PIERCING THUNDER STYLE (COMBAT,STYLE)(****)P - req 3 ranks Acrobatics. When wielding a reach weapon, enemies provoke AOO when entering a square your threaten! Yeah, you read that right... Awesome for AOO builds and flows well with standard Barbarian playstyle.Good, but again not quite as awesome as you say. Consider that if you actually have a great reach (which you should if you're going to focus on control), you'll still get you AoO from the movement of most opponents, it's just that the AoO will happen 5 feet closer to you. And combined with CaGM (which you really should aim for if you're into control), it's equally redundant.



And finally, PLEASE change that "golden" color if you actually decide to keep the rating, it's practically invisible!

Sorry for the wall o' text and the many points. Hopefully this can help you improve the guide.

Keep it up!

Anlashok
2016-07-13, 02:50 AM
So... is this an actual guide or just the OP trying to create another platform to complain about how much they hate deadly agility and skill focus?

Azoth
2016-07-13, 04:00 AM
Yeah gotta chime in on Seize the Opportunity. I have a Barbarian build that uses it, Come and Get Me, Two Weapon Fighting, and Thrashing Dragon Style to generate an obscene number of AoO's to shred opponents to ribbons.

That single feat allowed the 3.5 build known as Jack B. Quick to be recreated in pathfinder. That speaks volumes for it.

shawshank
2016-07-13, 09:53 AM
Alright so.... mmm.. I have just decided to let the Dex stuff lie. My issue with Dex based builds is that you do approximately the same amount of damage to a single target as a Str based build while still maintaining the advantages an extremely high Dex provides. I am aware of how high strength can get. I believe you could achieve 64ish or so with a POW class relatively easily. The best Dex I have achieved was 54 using certain POW classes. Obviously, outside of POW I have seen strength around 80 though you have to give up the majority, if not all maneuvers to do so. In any case, I can simply restructure this guide with options and just eliminate the Gold option.

However, please know, that if you actually do the math including path of war/expanded you will see that a dex-based build does more single target damage than a strength one UNLESS charging with a lance. In any other environment, the dex-based build now performs better. If you add in Spheres of Power(even taken with feats) to gain pounce, the dex-based build will even out-damage the lance charger build.

BUT, I did fail to consider how powerful a strength-based reach build can be. I admit that as an AOE or AOO damage dealer, the strength build will come out on top. This is something I failed to consider when working my calculations.

Thank you for the feedback.

upho
2016-07-22, 03:18 PM
Alright so.... mmm.. I have just decided to let the Dex stuff lie.Really like the changes, makes the guide feel a lot more grounded in facts and, at least AFAICT, the huge "accumulated experience" of GitPG members. I think this also demonstrates you not only take the time to really listen to critique and advice, but also that you're willing to change your opinion accordingly, something I believe not many people are capable of, unfortunately. Much appreciated.

I have a few suggestions for the new stuff you've added, but I'll put those in my next post since this one is likely to become huge...


My issue with Dex based builds is that you do approximately the same amount of damage to a single target as a Str based build while still maintaining the advantages an extremely high Dex provides.This has been the main argument against "easily" obtainable Dex to damage in 3e/PF for as long as I can remember, and I think it has been shown numerous times it's not really true even when simply comparing the numbers of Dex builds to Str builds on paper, and much less when looking at actual DPR and especially everything else related to melee attacks besides only single target damage. In short:

A Dex build will need to make more investments in order to match the single target melee damage of a Str build, and will find it impossible to reach similar DPR as that of an actually damage opted Str build.
The "advantages an extremely high Dex provides" aren't as significant as they might seem at first, at least not for PoW classes which frequently can use their initiation modifier, Str or maneuvers in place of or in addition to their Dex bonus to AC, Reflex, initiative, Combat Reflexes, thrown weapon attack rolls and usually also their most used Dex based discipline skill(s). In addition, the only truly important values here are initiative and potentially AoOs from Combat Reflexes, as all the others can rather easily be replaced by or compensated for with other more easily accessible abilities (often a great trade in the long run, as for example in the case of a high Dex bonus to AC vs stuff like a high DR, mirror image, counters or invisibility/Stealth).

More about this below.


I am aware of how high strength can get. I believe you could achieve 64ish or so with a POW class relatively easily.Sorta OT, but out of curiosity: how do you get to 64 "with a POW class relatively easily"? Anything I can think of to reach such a number with a build based on a full initiator (10+ levels out of 20) I wouldn't call relatively easily. More like very specific and rather complex. Or do you consider the PD barb a "PoW class"? Or are you thinking of using monster templates (giant) and/or some weird monstrous race (trox)?

Off the top of my head, the largest Str number I can come up with using Paizo options RAW (I guess), no templates and "normal" races is probably 93, but that's only for short durations and requires something like an orc synth 6, evangelist 10 (synth), barb 2, alchemist 2 with Eldritch Heritage and an adjacent or flanking raging orc friend.
16 biped base form, 3 level, 6 eidolon Str/Dex bonus, 6 three ability increase evos, 16 huge evo, 6 inherent orc bloodline, 6 belt, 6 size orc bloodline, 4 Spiritual Form, 10 wand of blood rage, 6 rage mutagen, 4 Amplified Rage, 2 profane Demonic Obedience (Anghazan), 2 sacred Righteous Medal of Valor (having both these last two might feel kinda schizophrenic, but I guess the combo could also just be signs of an interesting history of interfering with the "politics" of the Abyss...).

Highest somewhat longer duration Str for a non-synth I can think of would "only" be 75 with an orc crossblooded bloodrager 4, evangelist 10 (bloodrager), dragon disciple 4, alchemist 2, also with a nearby raging orc combat buddy.
18 base, 4 race, 5 level, 6 inherent (orc bloodline), 6 belt, 6 size form of the dragon II, 4 Spiritual Form, 4 dragon disciple, 6 rage mutagen, 4 Amplified Rage, 2 profane Demonic Obedience, 2 sacred Righteous Medal of Valor, 6 mighty bloodrage, 2 abyssal bloodrage.

And highest non-synth Str I can achieve for a build based on a full initiator (10+ levels out of 20) and DSP options would be similar at 74 with an orc initiator class (any) 1, evangelist 10 (initiator class), bloodrager 1, formless master 4 (bloodrager), dragon disciple 2, alchemist 2 with tons of Shifting feats.
18 base, 4 race, 5 level, 11 inherent Strongclaw Shift, 6 belt, 6 size Magnitude Shift, 4 Spiritual Form, 2 dragon disciple, 6 rage mutagen, 4 Amplified Rage, 2 profane Demonic Obedience, 2 sacred Righteous Medal of Valor, 4 unbounded ability.




The best Dex I have achieved was 54 using certain POW classes.Which classes did you use? Or maybe you have a build example to show? Anyhow, I think a melee stat of 54 is still more than overkill enough for most builds in most games, unless perhaps if you think the purpose of your life is to kill balors by gently poking them and/or one-shot Cthulhu no later than 20th level... :smalltongue:


Obviously, outside of POW I have seen strength around 80 though you have to give up the majority, if not all maneuvers to do so.Seriously, people do this outside of pure TO? I mean, going above even 60 is nearly always a plain stupid waste. Especially if you're not big enough to use most combat maneuvers against colossal creatures anyway. :smallamused:


In any case, I can simply restructure this guide with options and just eliminate the Gold option.My poor eyes like the new look. :smallsmile: Thanks!


However, please know, that if you actually do the math including path of war/expanded you will see that a dex-based build does more single target damage than a strength one UNLESS charging with a lance. In any other environment, the dex-based build now performs better. If you add in Spheres of Power(even taken with feats) to gain pounce, the dex-based build will even out-damage the lance charger build.Huh? I highly doubt this, even should we choose to disregard the lance.

Simply put, I believe there are only three truly important factors to consider:

There are easily three times as many Str bonuses as there are Dex bonuses in the game, and many of the Str bonuses are also larger and more easily accessible to melee builds.
A larger size increases not just reach (and thus actual DPR) but more importantly also damage die sizes and Str, while it decreases Dex. And vice versa a smaller size increases Dex but also decreases reach and damage die sizes. In total, this can and often will result in a very considerable net DPR gain for the Str based larger sized build.
There are more numerous and more significant melee damage boosting options for Str based attacks than for Dex based attacks, regardless of whether going 2-handed, TWF or natural. While more specific Dex builds could compensate somewhat, for example by taking Polearm Dancer and/or five levels dragon fury for "free" 2-handed Power Attack damage (3 x attack penalty), to my knowledge there are no options which grant a base Dex bonus to damage greater than 1 x modifier. In contrast, the Str bonus to damage can in higher levels consistently be 3 to 4.5 x modifier and increase to up to 6 x modifier at least once per round, potentially applying to all melee attacks (including main and off-hand TWF attacks as well as primary and secondary natural attacks).

That's basically all there's to it IME and to my knowledge.

Consequently I find it hard to see how a Dex based initiator would for example match the full attack of a relatively simple single-classed Str 50 ragebred steelfist commando warlord 20 with Dragon Ferocity, Horn of the Criosphinx and Shifting feats, wielding two temple swords with Effortless Laces via Ascetic Style. If such a warlord uses Broken Blade and Iron Hide Stance with a pounce strike (like Raging Hunter Pounce), the strike can include 18+ attacks, of which more than half have a very high Str bonus to damage and a very large damage die:

4 secondary bab -2, +20 Str bonus, 4d6 die (Deathsting, Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail, hooves, Multiattack)
1 secondary as above but 6d6 die (gore, Multiattack)
1 "pelt bite strike" bab -2, +60 Str bonus, 16d8 die (Pelt of the Beast bite, Feral Combat Training)
2 "proteus bite strikes" as above but with a 24d8 die (Skin of Proteus bites, Feral Combat Training)
10 "ascetic sword strikes" bab -2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-7/-7/-12/-12/-17, +80 Str bonus, 32d8 die (TWF, haste, BB Stance)

So if just considering damage from the most Str related components (Str bonus to damage, damage die sizes and Power Attack with Wrath of the Blood Moon), and assuming only the 13 most accurate attacks listed at bab -2 hits and none crits, the total DPR is 1765. The real DPR (taking level-appropriate equipment, other abilities and crits into account) against an average CR 20 monster would of course be much higher.

If we also add say Combat Reflexes, Seize the Opportunity and the Vital Strike chain (plus perhaps a few suitable AoO triggers) to further profit from the relatively large threatened area (30 - 35+ ft. radius = up to 740+ square ft.) and that ridiculous 32d8 damage die, this warlord should also be able to get a couple of "vital ascetic sword strikes of opportunity" during most rounds, each dealing damage as normal plus an additional +96d8 damage, so a total average non-charge damage of 654 per AoO. Again, even when not taking all other factors into account, this is way more than enough to one-shot an average CR 20 monster like a balor and even the CR 25 tarrasque. Yes, with one single AoO (although this mostly just illustrates the damage potential of the hilarious Seize the Opportunity).

Note also that if this warlord were to wield a single monk weapon in both hands (like a double-chained kama or a seven-branched sword), the Str bonus to charge damage would increase to +120. Not to mention that you can most likely put together an even more damaging level 20 Str build yourself.

Regardless of which "normal" Paizo or DSP options are included (anything besides say monstrous races, templates, mythic or alternative rules), I simply don't understand how a Dex based build can consistently make attacks with a Dex bonus to damage greater than +80 or a damage die larger than 32d8. In fact, I don't even understand how a Dex build would be able to consistently have attacks with a damage die as small as say 4d8 and a measly +40 Dex bonus to damage, not to mention combined with a threatening reach exceeding only 15 feet. Likewise, I have never seen any options which allow a Dex based build to compensate for these factors, much less to surpass the damage numbers of a Str based build. But I would love to learn about those options and see a build using them!

Please post a Dex based build outline which has a consistently higher DPR!


In the context of a 13th level build based on a PD barb, here's a more detailed Str build (slightly tweaked LotW test build I made earlier):


Ragebred Skinwalker Primal Disciple Barbarian 5, Ragechemist Vivisectionist Alchemist 2, Unchained Monk 1, Formless Master 4, Ordained Dervish Defender Warder 1
N Gargantuan female humanoid (shapechanger, skinwalker)

Values while shapechanged and in rage, Broken Blade Stance and Dragon Style stance, using short duration shifting, boots of speed and listed wands.

Initiative +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +28
Aegis allies within 10 ft. gain +1 morale to AC and Will saves; Neutral Aura as 1st level cleric


DEFENSE
AC 30, touch 23, flat-footed 29 +7 armor, +7 natural, +4 shield, +5 wis, +2 deflection, +1 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage
HP 149 76 (12+5d12+7d8) hit die, +65 con, +8 favored class
Fort +23, Ref +12, Will +14; +5 vs. mind-affecting; +5 vs. disease, poison, exhaustion and fatigue
DR 1/-; Defensive Abilities 50% chance to avoid sneak attack/crit, all around vision, improved uncanny dodge, uncanny dodge


OFFENSE (values incl. Power Attack)
Speed 60 ft., burrow 60 ft., climb 60 ft.; may charge through allies and ignore difficult terrain
Melee dragon beast claw +27 (12d8+52 plus strongclaws), 4 beast claws +27/+27/+27/+27 (12d8+43 plus strongclaws), 2 strongclaws +27/+27 (8d8+45 plus strongclaws), bite +26 (6d6+29), gore +26 (6d6+29), deathsting +26 (4d6+29 plus reposition and deathsting poison), scorpionsting +26 (4d6+29 plus scorpionsting poison) and 2 hooves +21/+21 (4d6+17)
Space 20 ft., Reach 25 ft. / 30 ft. with deathsting (40/45 ft. using defensive focus)
Attack Abilities and Special Attacks Combat Reflexes (6 AoOs/round), lock (DC 36), deathsting poison (DC 26, 3d2 Str damage, 6 rounds), reposition (CMB +38, free attempt to move target closer on deathsting hit), scorpionsting poison (DC 21, 1d3 Con damage, 6 rounds), sneak attack (1d6), strongclaws (overcomes all magic or material based DR or regeneration)

Stances and Maneuvers IL 13/9, 14 known, 7 readied, 4 stances
Stances Battle Dragon's Stance (TD3)W, Broken Blade Stance (BB3), Lesson II: Control (FE1), Pugilist Stance (BB1)
Boosts Iron Knuckle (BB4), Adamantine Knuckle (BB7)*
Counters Moment of Mastery (FE5)W, Temporal Body Adjustment (RH4)W
Strikes Cornered Frenzy Strike (PF5)W, Primal Frenzy (PF7)*, Raging Hunter Pounce (PF3)
Barbarian IL 13, max 6th level: 7 known, 4 readied, 3 stances; Broken Blade, Primal Fury, Riven Hourglass, Thrashing Dragon
WWarder IL 9, max 5th level: 5 known, 3 readied, 1 stance; Broken Blade, Fool's Errand, Primal Fury, Riven Hourglass, Thrashing Dragon
*Advanced Study IL 13, max 7th level: 2 known

Shifting 11 uses/day, 2 rounds duration/use in combat: Abomination, Beasthide, Deathsting, Magnitude and Strongclaw Shift

Rage 23 rounds/day: Lesser Beast Totem

Rage Mutagen 20 min., 1h preparation: +6 Strength, -2 Intelligence


STATISTICS
Str 46, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 20, Cha 5
Bab +11; CMB +39, using AoMF +43; CMD 56, vs bull rush and grapple 58, using AoMF 59
Feats Abomination ShiftB, Advanced Study, Beasthide Shift, Combat ReflexesB, Deathsting ShiftB, Dragon Ferocity, Dragon StyleB, Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm), Feral Combat Training (claws), Greater Unarmed Strike, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Lurker in DarknessB, Magnitude ShiftB, Power Attack, Strongclaw ShiftB, Stunning FistB, Two-Weapon FightingB, Weapon Focus (claws)B
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +49, Knowledge (martial, nature, religion) +4, Perception +28, Sense Motive +21, Survival +21, Swim +20

Alternate Racial Traits Alqarn heritage (Large size), Variant Ability (+2 Str, no spell-like ability)
Traits Practiced Initiator, Reactionary
Martial Traditions Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass), Sultanate of Beggars (Broken Blade)

Gear (140,000 gp) +1 furious amulet of mighty fists and natural armor +2, +3 rhino hide, belt (+2 str, dex, con, +4 wis), pelt of the beast (boar) resistance +3 and protection +2, boots of speed, cracked dusty rose prism, cracked opalescent white pyramids (claws) in wayfinder, eyes of the eagle, fleshwarped scorpion's tail (attached), gauntlets of rending and climbing +5, wands of [I]shield and strong jaw (20 charges), armor ointment (10), 1,130 gp




CLASS AND FEAT PROGRESSION (retraining not shown)
1 Barbarian 1 Power Attack, Abomination ShiftB
2 Barbarian 2 -
3 Barbarian 3 Dragon Style
4 Alchemist 1 -
5 Un-Monk 1* Beasthide ShiftB, Feral Combat Training (claws), Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Stunning FistB
6 Alchemist 2 -
7 Barbarian 4 Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm)
8 Formless 1 Strongclaw ShiftB
9 Formless 2Barb 5 Dragon Ferocity
10 Formless 3Barb 6 Deathsting ShiftB, Magnitude ShiftB
11 Formless 4Barb 7 Greater Unarmed Strike
12 Barbarian 8 -
13 Warder 1 Combat ReflexesB, Advanced Study, Two-Weapon FightingB
Lord of the Wheel Lurker in DarknessB
Opalescent White Pyramid Weapon Focus (claws)B
*This requires Piggy to change alignment to LN during a level, but shouldn't present much of a problem since she doesn't intend to take more levels in monk. Alternatively, she could be a Martial Artist (regular) monk to avoid the alignment issues, although she would lose 1 bab (and thus also one step of damage die increase from Greater Unarmed Strike.


ABILITY SCORES (20-point buy)
Str 20/46 15 base, 2 race, 1 level, 2 belt / 4 rage, 6 strongclaw, 6 mutagen, 4 unbounded ability, 6 size
Dex 15/11 13 base, 2 belt / -4 size
Con 20/24 15 base, 1 level, 2 race, 2 belt / 4 rage
Int 10/8 10 base / -2 mutagen
Wis 20 15 base, 1 level, 4 belt
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race


SAVING THROW BONUSES
Fort +23 7 con, 3 alchemist, 4 barbarian, 2 formless master, 2 monk, 2 warder, 3 cloak
Ref +12 3 alchemist, 1 barbarian, 2 formless master, 2 monk, 3 cloak, 1 haste
Will +14 5 wis, 1 barbarian, 1 formless master, 2 warder, 3 cloak, 2 rage


ATTACKS

Attack Sources
Bite and Gore Pelt of the Beast
2 Hooves change shape racial ability
Deathsting Deathsting Shift
Scorpionsting Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (attached)
5 Beast Claws Lesser Beast Totem (2), Broken Blade Stance (2), Boots of Speed (1)
2 Strongclaws Strongclaw Shift, Discovery (vestigial arm), Extra Discovery (vestigial arm); replaces the 2 monk TWF unarmed strikes

Attack Bonuses
Bite, Gore and Sting +26 11 bab, 18 str, 3 AoMF, 1 haste, -3 PA, -4 size
Claws +27 26 as above, 1 WF
Hooves +21 26 as above, -5 secondary

Damage Bonuses
Bite, Gore and Sting +29 18 str, 3 AoMF, 6 PA, 2 broken blade
Hooves +17 29 as above, -9 half str secondary, -3 PA dragon ferocity
Beast Claws +43 41 as above, 2 gauntlets of rending
Dragon Beast Claw +52 43 as above, 9 half str dragon style
Strongclaws +45 43 as above, 2 strongclaw shift

Damage Dice
Bite and Gore 6d6 1d6 medium -> 3d6 gargantuan -> 6d6 strong jaw
Hooves and Sting 4d6 1d4 medium -> 2d6 gargantuan -> 4d6 strong jaw
Strongclaws 8d8 1d4 medium -> 1d10 greater unarmed strike -> 4d8 gargantuan -> 8d8 strong jaw
Beast Claws 12d8 1d6 medium -> 2d8 greater unarmed strike -> 6d8 gargantuan -> 12d8 strong jaw


MISCELLANEOUS
CMB +39 / using AoMF +43 11 bab, 18 str, 1 haste, 4 size, 5 abomination shift / 3 AoMF, 1 WF
CMD 56 / vs bull rush or grapple 58 / using AoMF 59 10 + 11 bab, 18 str, 5 wis, 4 size, 5 abomination shift, 2 deflection, 1 dodge / 2 Sultanate of Beggars / 3 AoMF
Lock DC 36 12 + 6 half IL, 18 str
Climb +49 18 str, 3 class, 13 ranks, 5 competence, 10 strongclaw shift
Perception +28 5 wis, 2 race, 3 class, 13 ranks, 5 competence




An estimate of how Piggy performs in terms of average damage when charging an average CR 13 monster with Raging Hunter Pounce, using the Adamantine Knuckle boost.

BASE VALUES

Miss Piggy Plentiklaus
+2 Attack Bonus +2 charge: claws +29; bite, gore and stings +28; hooves +23
+8d6 Damage Bonuses +6d6 Adamantine Knuckle, +2d6 Rhino Hide
Average Hit Damage dragon beast claw 127, beast claws 118, strongclaws102, bite and gore 78, stings 71, hooves 59
Average Crit Damage Bonus dragon beast claw +106, beast claws +97, strongclaws +81, bite and gore +57, stings +50, hooves +38

CR 13 Monster
AC 28
180 hp


DPR

Hit and Crit Probabilites
80% Hooves +23 vs AC 28
95% Primary Attacks +29/+28 vs AC 28
5% Crit Chance

DPR per Attack
Dragon Beast Claw: 125.7 (0.95 x 127) + (0.05 x (0.95 x 106))
Beast Claws: 466.8 4 x ((0.95 x 118) + (0.05 x (0.95 x 97)))
Strongclaws: 201.5 2 x ((0.95 x 102) + (0.05 x (0.95 x 81)))
Bite and Gore: 153.6 2 x ((0.95 x 78) + (0.05 x (0.95 x 57)))
Stings: 139.6 2 x ((0.95 x 71) + (0.05 x (0.95 x 50)))
Hooves: 97.4 2 x ((0.8 x 59) + (0.05 x (0.8 x 38)))

1185 Total DPR - 658% of Monster HP



As you can see, already at 13th level Piggy has absolutely ridiculous overkill potential, enough to turn healthy monsters of CR +7 like balors into fine red mist in one turn. In fact, because of her many natural weapons, she could probably even kill several balors in one turn using either of her two Frenzy strikes. Also note that despite her heavy focus on damage spikes, Piggy still has awesome constant damage, good defenses, and even some decent melee control capability - largely thanks to her great Str, size and reach and her 1-level warder dip.

Of course, Piggy wouldn't be quite as ridiculous without the LotW material, but she would likely still be able to eat say CR +4 monsters for breakfast...

But maybe a 13th level damage opted Dex build can be even more ridiculous? Please post a build, and please include Spheres of Power and whatever DSP content you want!


BUT, I did fail to consider how powerful a strength-based reach build can be. I admit that as an AOE or AOO damage dealer, the strength build will come out on top. This is something I failed to consider when working my calculations.Yes, an AoO barb can be absolutely terrifying. But apart from maybe adding a natural attack build, I suggest you don't give damage builds much more attention in the guide, and instead focus more on combat versatility by mixing melee with ranged attacks and control (and debuffing). Damage is easy, overrated and boring IMO.


Thank you for the feedback.You're welcome!

shawshank
2016-07-25, 09:26 AM
I used the aforementioned build that you posted as a baseline for comparing the dex-based build damage-wise. I should have included that you several bonus feats to gain enough of them to give the dex-based 2-weapon fighting build the tool to get there. Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, all 3 2-weapon fighting feats, both weapon focus and specialization feats (if fighter or can take fighter bonus feats), hone-weapon is critical as it benefits 2-weapon FAR more than 2-handed. Also using 2 kukri's with imp crit if you can afford a feat. etc etc.

If you can gain consistent pounce using spheres of power(1 level dip into mageknight accomplishes this easily) freeing up your swift actions for damage buffing for pounce you will see around 1k dpr for a charge at 20th level for 2-weapon fighting against a 36-37 ac cr 20. (I did this with a dex of 40)

But, as you say, the investment outweighs the value as you get to the point where you are one-shotting everything on a pounce/charge so doing more dpr than that is pointless. Especially when a 2-handed melee can take 2-3 feats and be pretty much full-speed ahead opening up far more options to shore up weaknesses such as a low will-save etc.

And now the War sphere handbook from Spheres of Power is adding a feat that lets you use your casting ability modifier for hit/damage so, at this point, arguing it further is pointless heh.

I am currently working on finishing up my review of all 20 disciplines with regards to archetypes. I will create a new post with those listed and add a link to this guide as well. I really feel I need to get all the discipline reviews/feats finished before adding the additional archetype classes as I do not want to submit another unfinished guide.

I appreciate the additional feedback.

upho
2016-07-27, 11:32 PM
I used the aforementioned build that you posted as a baseline for comparing the dex-based build damage-wise.Sorry, but which build did you compare to - the detailed 13th level Miss Piggy or the basic 20th level ascetic steelfist commando Str build example?


I should have included that you several bonus feats to gain enough of them to give the dex-based 2-weapon fighting build the tool to get there.Huh? Please consider that I'm not a particularly smart person, so I don't really understand what you're trying to say unless you're being very clear. :smallredface:


Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility, all 3 2-weapon fighting feats, both weapon focus and specialization feats (if fighter or can take fighter bonus feats),Oh, I'd try to avoid weapon focus and specialization, I believe they're pretty sub-par even on a Dex TWF build.


hone-weapon is critical as it benefits 2-weapon FAR more than 2-handed.Sure, but it's still only up to +6 damage per hit. Not exactly the +18 per hit a Str build gains from Power Attack, and more importantly very far from the +137 or more average damage per hit a Str build may gain from its extremely large damage die thanks to Ascetic Style, Greater Unarmed Strike and a great size, or the +120 or more damage per hit it may gain from Iron Hide Stance. By comparison, the +6 from Hone Weapon looks pretty darn insignificant.

Also, AFAIK not even a +30 stat bonus to damage can be added to melee attacks based on any stat other than Str, much less a stat bonus of +120, and that silly 32d8 damage die requires a great size which of course benefits Str more than any other stat.


If you can gain consistent pounce using spheres of power(1 level dip into mageknight accomplishes this easily) freeing up your swift actions for damage buffing for pounce you will see around 1k dpr for a charge at 20th level for 2-weapon fighting against a 36-37 ac cr 20. (I did this with a dex of 40)Sounds reasonable, and outside of silly Seize the Opportunity Vital Strike AoO builds of great size, it's probably about the same as you would achieve using any other stat except Str.

Now have a look at Miss Piggy's DPR numbers in my previous post again, and remember she's only 13th level, uses no SoP elements and is very likely not the most opted damage build possible. At 20th, she could easily be made capable of eating friggin' Pazuzu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-pazuzu) for breakfast and Cthulhu for lunch in tasty one-shots, which is pretty far from what I believe a Dex build is capable of, SoP or not.


But, as you say, the investment outweighs the value as you get to the point where you are one-shotting everything on a pounce/charge so doing more dpr than that is pointless. Especially when a 2-handed melee can take 2-3 feats and be pretty much full-speed ahead opening up far more options to shore up weaknesses such as a low will-save etc.Yes indeed. I think the most important part to take away from the mostly theoretical builds we've mentioned hasn't much to do with max melee DPR possible at 20th. Rather, it's about which stat to base a build on in order to boost damage the most - and especially to get up to "sufficient DPR for a damage focused melee build" - for the least investments, as you say.

And though "sufficient DPR for a damage focused melee build" will of course vary depending on group and game preferences (I personally think a decent benchmark is "kills an average enemy of CR = level in a typical round of combat, including the first"), you'll find that a Str build requires less investments to achieve that DPR than a build based on any other stat, and also that the Str build has plenty more options available for how to do so.


And now the War sphere handbook from Spheres of Power is adding a feat that lets you use your casting ability modifier for hit/damage so, at this point, arguing it further is pointless heh.Agreed. (Though I recommend you don't include SoP options in when making comparisons for the purpose of this guide, of course.)


I am currently working on finishing up my review of all 20 disciplines with regards to archetypes. I will create a new post with those listed and add a link to this guide as well. I really feel I need to get all the discipline reviews/feats finished before adding the additional archetype classes as I do not want to submit another unfinished guide.Seems like a good idea.


I appreciate the additional feedback.You're welcome again! Hopefully you won't get too tired of my ranting wall of texts...

.................

And now:

Dazzling Display(***) - 30 foot intimidate is always good. Requires Weapon Focus.While Dazzling Display can become nice in combinations with additional related feats, or even flat out broken with tons of performance combat and other demoralize feats, I believe it's mostly the feats which Dazzling Display allows for that can make it so. Using the feat on its own is way too costly action-wise in most situations, and it also requires that annoying WF you're hoping to avoid (even if it'll only cost you 2k and an occupied wayfinder slot). Considering the feat starvation most PD barbs will suffer, I wouldn't recommend Dazzling Display at all.

Instead, I suggest you add the far superior (for most PD barbs) Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) to the guide. This only needs to be complemented with Intimidating Prowess (if you dumped Cha) and/or a cheap Intimidate boost item (2.5k for +5, 10k for +10) plus some ranks in Intimidate for very action-efficient and sure-fire demoralization. Moreover, Cornugon Smash not only works well almost straight out of the box, without stealing any of your precious combat actions or necessarily additional feat slots, it can also be vastly upgraded with other options, going from the minor "-2 to d20 rolls"-debuff of shaken to become what I believe is the most powerful melee debuff possible in the game:

A Cruel Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/cruel) (+1 cost) adds sickened (no save) when damaging an enemy already scared (shaken or worse) - which will of course happen very frequently (especially for TWF and natural attack builds) - piling on an additional -2 to d20 and damage rolls on top of the shaken condition.
Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) and one other Damnation Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats) (Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation) is good for most barbs) means each additional damaging Power Attack hit worsens the fear effect, all the way to panicked, which usually equals "out of this combat". It should be noted that while damnation feats have a yummy evil flavor often easily incorporated into most campaigns, as written they're definitely not suitable for all PCs and games, where the prereqs may be too problematic and the mechanical downsides of being "damned" can be overly harsh, so these should be handled with care and in close cooperation with the DM.
Black Seraph Annihilation gives additional defensive bonuses against scared enemies via the Black Seraph Style prereq (works especially great with CaGM) and, most importantly, removes immunity to fear from all enemies within 30 feet. Even enemies immune to mind-affecting, like undead and constructs, can thus be scared out of their pants (proverbial or not) just as easily as your average goblin is.

Going all the way down this frightening path is feat intensive but can of course also be scarily (pun intended) effective, and is perfectly doable for a PD barb who can also benefit greatly through synergy with Black Seraph and Eternal Guardian maneuvers, multi-attack strikes and easily accessible AoO triggers. That said, I think there are two major potential downsides to consider before investing heavily into becoming "the sum of all fears" via Cornugon Smash (besides those related to the damnation feats):

Poor damage synergy as the whole combo relies on dealing Power Attack damage one (shaken) to three (panicked and sickened) times to the same target. For an otherwise more damage focused build this may often make the debuff redundant since the enemy is dead (or most likely will be before it can act) anyways.
Fleeing enemies can be problematic. So the combo is best accompanied by stuff such as a phase locking weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/phase-locking), Wolf Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wolf-style-combat-style), trip and/or other abilities preventing a frightened or panicked enemy from fleeing.

This means specializing in demoralization is best done by more control/defender types of PD builds, preferably with one or two exchanged disciplines and maybe a monk and/or warder dip, not the more traditional damage dealers.


Exotic Weapon Proficiency(**) - You really do not have the feats. Plus, there are excellent martial weapons already. I can not recommend this.I think you should note that EWP is cheap and can be well worth the cost if the game allows crafting/finding/buying a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone) ioun (1.5k).


Haft Strike(****) - Take a -2 AC to attack/threaten adjacent with reach weapons. Not sure this allows you to attack the entire hole left in your reach when large or larger as it specifies only adjacent. Still excellent.This has been updated in the printed version and the latest version of the PoW:E PDF: "threaten all opponents within the reach of your reach weapon, rather than those you would normally threaten with your weapon".


Improved/Bleeding/Blinding/Deafening/Exhausting/Sickening/Staggering/Stunning/Tiring/etc Critical(**) - These feats are pretty cool. If you went for a crit fisher build you could certainly pick one or two of these. Note, you can only apply one critical feat to a single critical attack. Critical Mastery requires 14th level fighter and, honestly, these feats would be better served in a build with lots of bonus feats, which you do not have. Not a bad idea to snag keen on your weapon(s) though.Besides the problem of feat starvation and the general issues with crits, I believe these feats have a more serious inherent flaw similar to the problem with debuffing and damage I mentioned above: how often does an enemy survive long enough for a crit debuff to matter after having taken a crit by a damage-opted barb? Not very often, I'd wager. Which makes these feats a lot less attractive than they might seem at first.


Improved/Greater(Combat maneuvers other than trip)(**) - I am not saying you can not take these and do some fun things. You can get enough strength to Overrun/Grapple/Bull Rush most things. However, maneuvers allow you to do a lot of these things already and Barbarians are known for doing damage. You only have so many feats and I can not recommend any course that lowers it. If you want to play a battlefield control melee that is not trip/AOO, I suggest a myrmidon fighter as it has enough feat support to include one of these options.Thanks to more significant size increases available in DSP material (large or "as large" races, maneuvers like Primal Warrior Stance, skin of proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins), Magnitude Shift etc), Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat) and Seize the Opportunity, many of these have become a lot more accessible and potentially more effective than ever before. It's now relatively easy for a 20th PD barb to have a great enough CMB and to count as large enough to be able to trip the tarrasque (CR 25, CMD 66) on a roll of 1.

Also, especially sunder, dirty trick and overrun have some potentially awesome synergy with rage powers; things like Savage Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/savage-dirty-trick-ex), Overbearing Advance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/overbearing-advance-ex) (can be an additional instance of "dealing damage with Power Attack" for potentially extra Cornugon Smash demoralization!:smalltongue:), CaGM, Strength Surge and Spell Sunder can be made very powerful with combat maneuver feats.

That said, a PD barb won't be able to invest in more than perhaps one or two of the combat maneuvers, so the feats are of course mostly of interest to control builds or more corner case damage builds.


Intimidating Prowess(***) - If you intend on picking up Dazzling Display, it would be hard not to take this too.I think the rating is fine, but see above regarding Dazzling Display. And don't underestimate the value of having a very high Intimidate also outside of combat (even if you dumped Cha).


Iron Will/Improved (****) - You get some nice boosts to Will saves, but the will save is the most important save for you to improve since it is not naturally high. Unless you have sufficient counters in your build to protect you, I suggest both of these at some point in your build, even if you have to give up damage.You'd think these would be very much be vital, and still I've only seen a higher level barb or bloodrager with Iron Will if it was gained as a bonus feat from a very limited list (such as bloodline bonus feats). The reason for that is of course Superstition which gives a scaling bonus of +2 to +7, which means a raging 20th level PD barb with Wis 20 ends up with a respectable Will of at the very least +27 vs everything truly important (and +20 vs the rest).

Considering Superstition costs a PD only one feat slot - and gives access to Witch Hunter and especially Spell Sunder - I feel the Iron Will feats are inferior and largely redundant in most cases. I say most cases, since Superstition can be very problematic, or simply not available, in certain more rare situations and/or if you don't have reasonably well-coordinated party buffers, at least before you can rage cycle. Still, can't say there's anything really wrong with boosting Will, as the phrase "the party barb is dominated" can scarily often be shortened down to the three letters T, P and K... But from a more general optimization perspective I can't really see a build where the regained feat slot isn't better spent on another option.

Which brings us to:

Example Builds:
/snip/
Two-Handed(Simple):
13 – Iron Will
15 – Improved Iron Will

Two-Weapon(Strength):
13 – Iron Will
15 – Improved Iron WillFor both builds, I'd trade these for "Extra Rage Power – Superstition" and use the spared feat slot for something more interesting in line with the build's combat role (Witch Hunter for +6 dmg vs magic users? Advanced Study for more high level maneuvers? CaGM for additional attacks or Horn of the Criosphinx for +8 dmg on charges for the 2h build? Tons of possibilities...). If possible, I'd also replace Improved Iron Will with "Extra Rage Power – Internal Fortitude" and a flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon) for rage cycling, and then retrain the feat at 17th.


For a more lockdown build, you can substitute out the Vital Strike Line for Martial Power/Improved Trip/Great Trip to keep multiple target prone + added survivability at the expense of damage.Or if you wanna kill entire families of tarrasques with each full attack, simply combine both feat chains with for example Wolf Trip, Vicious Stomp, Greater Unarmed Strike and Ascetic Style (any monk reach weapon) to become a proverbial factory of finest "Hors d'βge" AoO annihilation cheese (assuming Huge size (treated as Gargantuan), Str 46 (starting at 18 incl. racial) wielding a colossal +5 furious dueling double-chained kama):

Four trip attempts with a CMB of +90/+85/+80/+75 or more (20 bab, 18 str, 1 WF, 4 trip feats, 7 enhancement, 14 luck dueling, 2 dusty rose ioun, 4 size, 20 Strength Surge).
Each successful trip moves the target to adjacent and triggers two Vital Strike AoOs (Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp) at +44 or more (20 bab, 18 str, 1 WF, 7 enhancement, -2 size).
Each AoO hit deals at least 466 damage on average and reduces the target's speed with at least 460 ft. for 1 round (24d8 Gargantuan size GUS kama damage + 72d8 Greater Vital Strike + 27 str, 7 enhancement).

So up to four targets within 45 feet or more are pretty darn certain to end up prone, with no movement speed and with 932 hp less, i.e. probably not doing much during at least a few rounds. And at least one of those four targets may even be a CR 30 monster (Pazuzu: CMD 94, AC 48; or Cthulhu: CMD 97, AC 49) and it would still be prone and brought to below 1 hp on average, provided our cheesy barb survives getting close enough to attack in the first place, of course...

(And just in case it matters and you missed it: you don't need Seize the Opportunity for making trip AoOs (so that should also be traded if trading the VS line for trip), and Martial Power doesn't allow for ignoring the "Int 13" prereq of the trip feats, but Dirty Fighting does.)

shawshank
2016-07-28, 09:24 AM
While Dazzling Display can become nice in combinations with additional related feats, or even flat out broken with tons of performance combat and other demoralize feats, I believe it's mostly the feats which Dazzling Display allows for that can make it so. Using the feat on its own is way too costly action-wise in most situations, and it also requires that annoying WF you're hoping to avoid (even if it'll only cost you 2k and an occupied wayfinder slot). Considering the feat starvation most PD barbs will suffer, I wouldn't recommend Dazzling Display at all.

Good information. Ratings changed.

Instead, I suggest you add the far superior (for most PD barbs) to the guide. This only needs to be complemented with Intimidating Prowess (if you dumped Cha) and/or a cheap Intimidate boost item (2.5k for +5, 10k for +10) plus some ranks in Intimidate for very action-efficient and sure-fire demoralization. Moreover, Cornugon Smash not only works well almost straight out of the box, without stealing any of your precious combat actions or necessarily additional feat slots, it can also be vastly upgraded with other options, going from the minor "-2 to d20 rolls"-debuff of shaken to become what I believe is the most powerful melee debuff possible in the game:

Cruel Weapon (+1 cost) adds sickened (no save) when damaging an enemy already scared (shaken or worse) - which will of course happen very frequently (especially for TWF and natural attack builds) - piling on an additional -2 to d20 and damage rolls on top of the shaken condition.
damnationSoulless Gaze and one other damnation Fiendskin is good for most barbs means each additional damaging Power Attack hit worsens the fear effect, all the way to panicked, which usually equals "out of this combat". It should be noted that while damnation feats have a yummy evil flavor often easily incorporated into most campaigns, as written they're definitely not suitable for all PCs and games, where the prereqs may be too problematic and the mechanical downsides of being "damned" can be overly harsh, so these should be handled with care and in close cooperation with the DM.
Updated ratings for feats. I will come up with something for the Damnation Feats. It is very flavorful but not all DM's would allow. I like it personally, thought. Thanks.


Black Seraph Annihilation gives additional defensive bonuses against scared enemies via the Black Seraph Style prereq (works especially great with CaGM) and, most importantly, removes immunity to fear from all enemies within 30 feet. Even enemies immune to mind-affecting, like undead and constructs, can thus be scared out of their pants (proverbial or not) just as easily as your average goblin is.

Going all the way down this frightening path is feat intensive but can of course also be scarily (pun intended) effective, and is perfectly doable for a PD barb who can also benefit greatly through synergy with Black Seraph and Eternal Guardian maneuvers, multi-attack strikes and easily accessible AoO triggers. That said, I think there are two major potential downsides to consider before investing heavily into becoming "the sum of all fears" via Cornugon Smash (besides those related to the damnation feats):


I have not gone over the 60 style feats for review yet. I am aware of the Black Seraph Style chain but prioritized the 20 disciplines over it. I will be adding that link today as I am done with 17.5 of them. At least the first draft. I encourage your feedback to them as well. I have highly enjoyed it here.



Poor damage synergy as the whole combo relies on dealing Power Attack damage one (shaken) to three (panicked and sickened) times to the same target. For an otherwise more damage focused build this may often make the debuff redundant since the enemy is dead (or most likely will be before it can act) anyways.
Fleeing enemies can be problematic. So the combo is best accompanied by stuff such as a phase locking weapon,Wolf Style, trip and/or other abilities preventing a frightened or panicked enemy from fleeing.
This means specializing in demoralization is best done by more control/defender types of PD builds, preferably with one or two exchanged disciplines and maybe a monk and/or warder dip, not the more traditional damage dealers.

I agree, but with the right disciplines, you can do both with everybody it seems like to me. I, myself, tend to focus more on counters and boosts for my martial initiators and perhaps a debuffing strike or two when needed. With how easy it is to setup full attacks just using maneuvers, it is hard to justify using a single target strike past a certain level. Your suggestions only strengthen that. Also, wolf style is hard to fit into PoW, not because it isn't good but because of how good the PoW style feats can be! Phase-locking doesn't prevent running away but I still like it because dimensional anchor is awesome.


I think you should note that EWP is cheap and can be well worth the cost if the game allows crafting/finding/buying a cracked ioun (1.5k).
This has been updated in the printed version and the latest version of the PoW:E PDF: "threaten all opponents within the reach of your reach weapon, rather than those you would normally threaten with your weapon".


Thank you. Information updated.

Besides the problem of feat starvation and the general issues with crits, I believe these feats have a more serious inherent flaw similar to the problem with debuffing and damage I mentioned above: how often does an enemy survive long enough for a crit debuff to matter after having taken a crit by a damage-opted barb? Not very often, I'd wager. Which makes these feats a lot less attractive than they might seem at first.


You could say the same thing about demoralizing as well. I did rate them orange of course. I do feel they are better than red though individual ones are definitely red. Crits can feel really good sometimes as well. I agree with your post but I do not think a rating change is warranted at this time.


Thanks to more significant size increases available in DSP material (large or "as large" races, maneuvers like Primal Warrior Stance, skin of proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins), Magnitude Shift etc), Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat) and Seize the Opportunity, many of these have become a lot more accessible and potentially more effective than ever before. It's now relatively easy for a 20th PD barb to have a great enough CMB and to count as large enough to be able to trip the tarrasque (CR 25, CMD 66) on a roll of 1.
Also, especially sunder, dirty trick and overrun have some potentially awesome synergy with rage powers; things like Savage Dirty Trick, Overbearing Advance (can be an additional instance of "dealing damage with Power Attack" for potentially extra Cornugon Smash demoralization!, CaGM, Strength Surge and Spell Sunder can be made very powerful with combat maneuver feats.
I agree again. That's why I have a link to another barbarian guide with rage power reviews. If you feel this is a poor choice and have a better one, I would appreciate it. I did not want to do a complete Barbarian guide on top of the PoW version because of it being redundant. I feel like their are already some pretty nice Barbarian guides out there.


That said, a PD barb won't be able to invest in more than perhaps one or two of the combat maneuvers, so the feats are of course mostly of interest to control builds or more corner case damage builds.

I think the rating is fine, but see above regarding Dazzling Display. And don't underestimate the value of having a very high Intimidate also outside of combat (even if you dumped Cha).

You'd think these would be very much be vital, and still I've only seen a higher level barb or bloodrager with Iron Will if it was gained as a bonus feat from a very limited list (such as bloodline bonus feats). The reason for that is of course Superstition which gives a scaling bonus of +2 to +7, which means a raging 20th level PD barb with Wis 20 ends up with a respectable Will of at the very least +27 vs everything truly important (and +20 vs the rest).

Considering Superstition costs a PD only one feat slot - and gives access to Witch Hunter and especially Spell Sunder - I feel the Iron Will feats are inferior and largely redundant in most cases. I say most cases, since Superstition can be very problematic, or simply not available, in certain more rare situations and/or if you don't have reasonably well-coordinated party buffers, at least before you can rage cycle. Still, can't say there's anything really wrong with boosting Will, as the phrase "the party barb is dominated" can scarily often be shortened down to the three letters T, P and K... But from a more general optimization perspective I can't really see a build where the regained feat slot isn't better spent on another option.

Agree with all. Changes made.


Which brings us to:
For both builds, I'd trade these for "Extra Rage Power – Superstition" and use the spared feat slot for something more interesting in line with the build's combat role (Witch Hunter for +6 dmg vs magic users? Advanced Study for more high level maneuvers? CaGM for additional attacks or Horn of the Criosphinx for +8 dmg on charges for the 2h build? Tons of possibilities...). If possible, I'd also replace Improved Iron Will with "Extra Rage Power – Internal Fortitude" and a flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon) for rage cycling, and then retrain the feat at 17th.

Or if you wanna kill entire families of tarrasques with each full attack, simply combine both feat chains with for example Wolf Trip, Vicious Stomp, Greater Unarmed Strike and Ascetic Style (any monk reach weapon) to become a proverbial factory of finest "Hors d'βge" AoO annihilation cheese (assuming Huge size (treated as Gargantuan), Str 46 (starting at 18 incl. racial) wielding a colossal +5 furious dueling double-chained kama):

Four trip attempts with a CMB of +90/+85/+80/+75 or more (20 bab, 18 str, 1 WF, 4 trip feats, 7 enhancement, 14 luck dueling, 2 dusty rose ioun, 4 size, 20 Strength Surge).
Each successful trip moves the target to adjacent and triggers two Vital Strike AoOs (Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp) at +44 or more (20 bab, 18 str, 1 WF, 7 enhancement, -2 size).
Each AoO hit deals at least 466 damage on average and reduces the target's speed with at least 460 ft. for 1 round (24d8 Gargantuan size GUS kama damage + 72d8 Greater Vital Strike + 27 str, 7 enhancement).

So up to four targets within 45 feet or more are pretty darn certain to end up prone, with no movement speed and with 932 hp less, i.e. probably not doing much during at least a few rounds. And at least one of those four targets may even be a CR 30 monster (Pazuzu: CMD 94, AC 48; or Cthulhu: CMD 97, AC 49) and it would still be prone and brought to below 1 hp on average, provided our cheesy barb survives getting close enough to attack in the first place, of course...

(And just in case it matters and you missed it: you don't need Seize the Opportunity for making trip AoOs (so that should also be traded if trading the VS line for trip), and Martial Power doesn't allow for ignoring the "Int 13" prereq of the trip feats, but Dirty Fighting does.)


This is great information! Do not stop there though. Give me an example build! If you could list it in similar fashion to those already up, it would be great! I love to see great builds and I want to put your name on it!

Thanks for the feedback. It was great!