How to make a good martial artist?

[TheCrowing1432]

People say to make an unarmed swordsage but they never specify what else to do with it. Does anyone have any advice on how to make a dungeon crawling, wall jumping, dragon punching swordsage/monk/fighter/whatever else might contribute to punching good?

[Gildedragon]

jumpy runny type

well IF you can use PF stuff

Unchained Monk 2, UASwordsage 5 Shadowsun Ninja 10

you can teleport, you can punch, you can do neat tricks

get ranks in craft alchemy and make smoke and sleep grenades

[TheCrowing1432]

Unchained Monks from Pathfinder are amazing

[Troacctid]

Single-classed swordsage. Pick good maneuvers and good feats. It's mostly paint-by-numbers—you don't have to do anything fancy to make it work, you just need decent ability scores.

[Drelua]

Unchained Monks are pretty cool, Pathfinder actually has a lot of content for martial artist characters. IMO, regular monk can be better than unchained if you put a lot of work into it, just because it has access to a bunch of sweet archetypes like Master of Many Styles, Sohei, Zen Archer and Hungry Ghost, but Unchained Monk is pretty easy to use. It's hard to go wrong with Style Strike, for example.

Brawlers are pretty sweet too if you're looking for less mysticism and more face smashing. They have some good archetypes like Shield Champion (aka Captain America), Mutagenic Mauler, and Wild Child.

Combat Styles are great too, some that stand out are Dragon Style, Snake Style, Pummelling, Boar, Outslug, and (if you can convince your DM to use the pre-errata version) Crane.

[Darrin]

People say to make an unarmed swordsage but they never specify what else to do with it. Does anyone have any advice on how to make a dungeon crawling, wall jumping, dragon punching swordsage/monk/fighter/whatever else might contribute to punching good?

First, ask your DM's opinion on how the Unarmed Swordsage variant should work (Tome of Battle p. 20). The text says, "give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency". Some people think this means you give the Swordsage everything that appears in the "Unarmed Strike" ability from the monk's description in the PHB, including Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. However, some people may insist on strict RAW (Rules As Written), which only gives the unarmed swordsage the unarmed damage progression but not the bonus feat.

There's also the issue of the swordsage's AC bonus only applies when wearing light armor, and thus does not apply when wearing no armor. Many people just handwave this as an oversight and apply the AC bonus whenever the swordsage is in light or no armor. If your DM refuses to handwave this, then just wear light armor without an Armor Check Penalty. The non-proficency penalty penalty is zero when your ACP is zero.

After you've sorted that out, you'll want some unarmed-friendly feats:

1st: Shadow Blade and/or Adaptive Style
3rd: Intuitive Attack (BoED) or Weapon Finesse
6th: Superior Unarmed Strike or Improved Natural Attack
9th: Snap Kick
12th: Versatile Unarmed Strike or Combat Reflexes
15th: Martial Study/Stance
18th: Martial Study/Stance

As far as maneuver selection goes... I prefer to focus on Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw/Shadow Hand with a smattering of Stone Dragon/Desert Wind here and there. Given the number of choices for swordsages, it would be difficult to be more specific without some discussion on what sort of tactics and playing style you prefer.

[ranagrande]

Play a Petal LA 3/ex-Monk 2/Swordsage 2/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Shou Disciple 5/Fist of the Forest 3/whatever you want 5.

For feats take Dodge and Great Fortitude (not good, but necessary for prereqs) and Flying Kick, Snap Kick, and Improved Natural Attack(Unarmed Strike).

Fly like a bullet into your enemies, potentially charging for 12d8 + 3d12 + 6 + 3*(dex mod + wis mod) at level 15.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Darrin's pretty much hit the nail on the head.

To expand a bit on the maneuvers, if you want a more flurry of blows type of martial artist, Tiger Claw has some great maneuvers for that purpose. If you want a more one hit one kill, Diamond Mind has good stuff, as does the other half of Tiger Claw. I prefer Diamond mind, since the TC maneuvers tend to lower AC. Shadow hand is great for playing the ninja archetype. Stone dragon has some grappling stuff (not necessarily great), and the mountain hammer line is great for emulating the board breaking demonstrations.

[Gruftzwerg]

If u wanna add some DBZ (Dragon Ball Z) feeling to your character, have a look at my signature build.

monk/warlock/enlightened fist/monk of the enabled hand

works with Eldritch Claws & Beast Strike to amp your unarmed charge/dive dmg "over 9000" (not really 9000 but enough to onehit almost anything).

and a not to shabby fly speed of 150ft.

You can tune the dmg down, if your group shouldn't feel comfortable with the insane dmg. You could take perfect maneuverability instead of charge feats and invest not in charge related dmg items/enchants to cut the dmg down (the size increase is one of the biggest dmg amps besides the charge stuff).

Otherwise if your group should be fine with the dmg, than hf with your SSJ2 ( cause you need perfect maneuverability for SSJ3 xD )

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I can't believe you've left out the Setting Sun school, which is the most martial-artsy school of the lot.

OP, can you give us more information about what you're looking for? Monks and monk lookalikes get discussed a lot, so there's a lot of good stuff out there. If you can be a bit more specific, we can definitely put together some ideas.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Definitely avoid PF, I don't know why people keep suggesting the edition that looked at monks and said, "Yeah, they're already the weakest class, but....do they REALLY need Imp. Natural Attack, speed bonus on all movement modes, and a rapid-fire unarmed full attack that's at least no worse than a Fighter can pull off with TWF feats?"

Anyway, Unarmed Swordsage is a good class to use, as said. Monk/Psychic Warrior or Monk/Psion/Slayer if starting at a higher level with the Tashalatora feat (for Slayer, not Psion, in the latter case) are solid, and psionic feats like Up the Walls and Speed of Thought fit the concept well.

I'd say for feats Snap Kick is a stand-out. It's an extra attack you can use even without a full attack! Stunning Fist is much-maligned, but can be pretty decent with Pain Touch and Pharaoh's Fist if you can muster a good wisdom score. Great Throw (Oriental Adventures) basically lets you do a Setting Sun throw with every unarmed trip, though it's a lot to attain. Elusive Target, aside from neutering Power Attack and turning being flanked into a weapon, also lets you get a free trip (w/ no chance of being tripped if you fail) each time a foe misses you with an AoO. I like that one for skirmishing-type martial artist builds.

Greater Mighty Wallop spell and Imp. Natural Attack and/or Superior Unarmed Strike can get you a pretty ridiculous base unarmed damage, especially if you also get enlarged.

A lot of what you can do to improve unarmed performance isn't stuff limited to unarmed. Trip feats... Getting some sneak attack (Assassin's Stance, perhaps) for Staggering Strike... You could dip a few levels in Binder and take Imp. Binding feat to get Paimon for a Dex buff, Whirlwind Attack, and a once per 5 rounds move + attack everyone ability. Or be a Changeling to enter Warshaper for tons of combat buffs and longer reach. Or do both of those last two things.

[KingSmitty]

Monk 2 Sword Sage 2 Shadow Sun Ninja 6 Kensai X Shadow Sun Ninja X

take feats that give you extra attacks like snap kick, you should be able to use your flurry with maneuvers depending on your DM, but those feats work with it.

get hand wraps or a quarterstaff enchanted with martial discipline with 3 schools (stance, boost, and strike maneuvers). Use your Kensai ability for that. That should mitigate the attack bonus penalty for all the attacks you make in a round.

For damage, Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack stack, maybe get your Kensai mojo out and enchant your fists with mighty wallop.

[MilleniaAntares]

Path of War is good if you can use third party Pathfinder.

[CharonsHelper]

Definitely avoid PF, I don't know why people keep suggesting the edition that looked at monks and said, "Yeah, they're already the weakest class, but....do they REALLY need Imp. Natural Attack, speed bonus on all movement modes, and a rapid-fire unarmed full attack that's at least no worse than a Fighter can pull off with TWF feats?"

It's only core monk which is weak. (though it's still better than 3.5's monk)

If you either -

A. Go with Unchained monk

B. Use a couple of archetypes (Qinggong was Paizo's stealth patch to the monk)

Then Pathfinder monks are very solid choices, especially if there is a decent buffer in the party to deal with the monk's greatest weakness - accuracy. A monk and bard in the same party are really good.

[Seppo87]

Thanks to the Initiator Level mechanics, you can easily multiclass with an unarmed swordsage and not lose much (up to 6 levels, less is better)

There are three main routes you can go with an unarmed swordsage: STR, DEX, WIS
You can also either go Flurry+unarmed TWF, single martial strikes, or Decisive Strike.
Flurry deals more damage but needs more feats, you can get extra attacks from various schools especially Tiger Claw.
Single Martial strikes is straightforward. Its best on Strength builds.
Decisive Strike is a flurry variant that goes well with Snap Kick and Aoos generated via robilar's gambit/karmic strike, it's great with Improved Combat Reflexes.

Use the X stat to Y bonus thread by personman to see what dips and feats you should take when multiclassing, i.e. Shadow Blad is a must if you go DEX

-Martial Monk 2 is good (dragon magazine) as it gives fighter feats without requirements
-Fighter 2 is great for feats and in DEX builds it allows to choose the hit-n-run variant
-Barbarian 1-2 is great on Strength or Dex builds (ferocity variant), gives you pounce (Lion Totem CC), a bonus feat or uncanny dodge at 2nd level, and unarmed TWF with the Cityscape variant
-PsyWar 2 is like Fighter but with power points. Good on STR or WIS builds, great if you're using the fractionary BaB rule.
-Shiba Protector is for a full wis build, grab Intuitive Strike and enjoy yourself being as SAD as possible with Strongheart Halfling and Yondalla's Sense.

Damage can be improved via size (actual or virtual) and/or extra attacks and/or static bonuses, all are viable and require different investments.
For example, Size is best with Strength and PsyWar.
Static bonus and extra attacks is best with Monk+Fighter+Barb Dex-Based TWF
Etc

[Waazraath]

Another good option is psionic. There are two monk flavored prestige classes, Fist of zuoken and Zerth cenobite. With the right powers you can wall-walk, dragon punch and dungeon crawl all that you like. Alternatively the Tashalatora feat lets a psionic class (psion, psychic warrior, for example) advance unarmed damage, flurry, and AC bonus.

[digiman619]

If you don't mind using a Pathfinder 3PP, a Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) with the Deadly Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist) and War Soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/war-soul-soulknife-archetype) archetypes should prove interesting, especially with a focus on Broken Blade and Sleeping Goddess disciplines.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's only core monk which is weak. (though it's still better than 3.5's monk)

If you either -

A. Go with Unchained monk

B. Use a couple of archetypes (Qinggong was Paizo's stealth patch to the monk)

Then Pathfinder monks are very solid choices, especially if there is a decent buffer in the party to deal with the monk's greatest weakness - accuracy. A monk and bard in the same party are really good.

No, PF core monk was not better than 3E's Monk, it was a nerf. Not a huge one, but when you're already at the bottom, every little bit hurts. And Qinggong barely made a difference. Almost all the options were terrible, the main standouts were...saving money on not needing an amulet of natural armor, gaseous form, and the ki leech at will SLA to get infinite ki points if you were evil and the DM didn't get upset by you harvesting prisoners for ki.

I haven't looked into Unchained, but supposedly it buffed Monk and nerfed Summoner. And yet I went to a PF one shot for Free RPG Day that used unchained for the pregens... there was a Monk and Summoner. Comparing the monk to the eidolon, the eidolon had the same to hit bonus, +1 damage, +1 AC, better CMB, and could fly. Monk had more hp, but still well less than the Summoner + eidolon combined (life link). Still can't even be on par with the tier 2 caster's pet...

[CharonsHelper]

No, PF core monk was not better than 3E's Monk, it was a nerf.

How? They got semi-full BAB and several other minor bonuses. The only way they were nerfed was in the FAQ of not allowing gauntlets or improved nat attack. (which were basically late 3.5 attempts to make the monk viable - the gauntlet FAQ directly contradicted an early 3.5 FAQ)


And Qinggong barely made a difference. Almost all the options were terrible, the main standouts were...saving money on not needing an amulet of natural armor, gaseous form, and the ki leech at will SLA to get infinite ki points if you were evil and the DM didn't get upset by you harvesting prisoners for ki.

Barkskin also makes you able to wear an amulet of natural armor (which is cheaper than in 3.5) and is a higher bonus than you could ever afford. There are several other solid choices. I like Scorching Ray on my drunken master. True Strike is a solid choice for maneuvers, especially for a Sensei. Cold Ice Strike is decent damage as a swift action. etc.

And as I said above - you need multiple archetypes, qinggong being one of them. Zen Archer is probably the best archer in the game. (and archery the best combat style) Drunken Masters give infinite ki. Sensei are a cool support build (which combo well with Drunken Masters). Tetori as crazy-good grapplers.

Not to mention that some of the more recent Style feats have boosted monk power level. (Pummeling Charge gives you pounce.)


I haven't looked into Unchained, but supposedly it buffed Monk and nerfed Summoner. And yet I went to a PF one shot for Free RPG Day that used unchained for the pregens... there was a Monk and Summoner. Comparing the monk to the eidolon, the eidolon had the same to hit bonus, +1 damage, +1 AC, better CMB, and could fly. Monk had more hp, but still well less than the Summoner + eidolon combined (life link). Still can't even be on par with the tier 2 caster's pet...

Please don't use pregens to gauge the power level of classes. Pathfinder pregens are all various levels of terrible, while a pet is pretty much the same whether pregen or built properly. (I have no doubt that pregens are made that way intentionally so that even a newbie's actual build will be as good or better than a pregen.)

Basically the Unchained monk is a better beatstick than the base monk, but no better than a well built/archetyped one. This was also intentional. I mentioned in a thread on Paizo's site that the Umonk had about the same power level as a well-built monk, but was much better than a core monk and easier to build, and one of the designers of Unchained popped in and basically agreed that that was their goal.

[Pugwampy]

The trick to a good monk is not trying to be as tough as a barbarian but disabling said barbarian and bringing him down to monk level . Eg. Take barbarian weapon away and force him to use his fists .

[Drelua]

I honestly have no idea how PF Monk could be considered worse than 3.5, except maybe for a few silly ACFs, like the one that I think gives wildshape, or Martial Monk if you abuse it. On top of the ones that have already been mentioned, Spit Venom is a great Qinggong monk powers; spit Venom is no-save 1-round blindness as a ranged touch attack. The Fort save v. CON damage is just gravy. Gaseous Form has good utility, Blood Crow Strike is a full attack at a range of 240' when it's first available, Dragon's Breath is solid, and there's a lot of good ways to restore ki, like a ki mat or Hungry Ghost Monk, and another ki power, ki leech, plus a ring of ki mastery brings the cost of ki powers down by 1, minimum zero, so as I've said it's more than possible to build a monk that basically never runs out of ki.

I mean, just comparing core 3.5 to core Pathfinder, PF monks have higher attack bonuses, ki points let them reuse a lot of abilities that were 1/day as well as letting them get an extra attack per round when they can afford it, their bonus feats are way better, and, getting into a few smaller things, they bypass more DR, get a slightly better AC bonus, and AoMF is cheaper. Core against core at least, 3.5 has no advantage, except maybe 1 more attack at their highest bonus, but PF monks get 2 attacks at a bonus 3 higher and 2 more attacks at a bonus 2 lower than the 3.5 Monks, so, yeah, no advantage. There's not even that many good 3.5 Monk ACFs, Invisible Fist is the only one I can think of that I didn't already mention.

[CharonsHelper]

plus a ring of ki mastery brings the cost of ki powers down by 1, minimum zero

I totally agree - except for this. The Ring of Ki Mastery says specifically "As long as there are at least 2 ki points stored in the ring, the wearer reduces the number of ki points needed to use a ninja trick or ki ability by 1 (minimum 1 ki point).".

[Gildedragon]

if one wants to emphasize the artist part of Martial Artist... may i suggest snowflake wardance bard (versatile unarmed strike: slashing)

[Drelua]

I totally agree - except for this. The Ring of Ki Mastery says specifically "As long as there are at least 2 ki points stored in the ring, the wearer reduces the number of ki points needed to use a ninja trick or ki ability by 1 (minimum 1 ki point).".

Yeah, so it doesn't work for everything, and it doesn't make anything free, but it does make Abundant Step (for dimensional agility at really high levels), Spit Venom, Blood Crow Strike, Cold Ice Strike, Restoration, Wholeness of Body, Scorching Ray, Dragon's Breath, and Empty Body cheaper. It helps a lot, assuming you have some method of ki recovery, which Qinggong provides in the form of the aforementioned ki leech.

[CharonsHelper]

Yeah, so it doesn't work for everything, and it doesn't make anything free, but it does make Abundant Step (for dimensional agility at really high levels), Spit Venom, Blood Crow Strike, Cold Ice Strike, Restoration, Wholeness of Body, Scorching Ray, Dragon's Breath, and Empty Body cheaper. It helps a lot, assuming you have some method of ki recovery, which Qinggong provides in the form of the aforementioned ki leech.

Oh - it's definitely a great item. I'm planning to grab it for my PFS Drunken Master so that he can use Dragon's Breath at will. (he took the feat to drink booze as a swift action)

[Drelua]

Oh - it's definitely a great item. I'm planning to grab it for my PFS Drunken Master so that he can use Dragon's Breath at will. (he took the feat to drink booze as a swift action)

Oh wow, I didn't even notice my typo until just now. I could've sworn I typed 'minimum 1.' My bad. :smallredface: