EK Arcane Archer

[WeaselGuy]

So. In the event my wife doesn't allow UA or SCAG for our Curse of Strahd campaign, I'm thinking about playing an Eldritch Knight, and using his weapon bond thing on a bow of some sort. I'm leaning towards a Hand Crossbow, because I think it'd be awesome. If I go Variant Human for race, what feat should I take, Crossbow Expert? And then Sharpshooter at 4?

Suggestions for a build path, including useful spells for me to learn would be awesome. I've only really played a bladelock in 5e before, for consideration.

[tieren]

Check this out:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?469118-GUIDE-Bow-Bond-An-Eldritch-Knight%92s-guide-to-Archery&p=6707748#post6707748

[Saggo]

Getting the Crossbow Expert's bonus attack is better average DPR than starting with Sharpshooter, so purely for DPR you'd go level 1 Crossbow, level 4 Sharpshooter. Do consider some feats that don't directly contribute to DPR for your level 1, like Mobile, Alert, or Lucky.

Think about taking Urchin as your background. Gives you access to thief skills and tools, works well with Dex.

Since a ranged fighter usually avoids direct combat, spells can primarily focus on mobility, utility, and possibly crowd control, with a few to cover defense.

At slot 1, Shield is a given, useful for the entire campaign. For your level 3 any pick, Find Familiar and an Owl works very well with Sharpshooter. Expeditious Retreat will give you mobility usually only a Rogue has, and while it does compete with Crossbow Expert for your bonus action, as a ranged Fighter it will let you get line of sight on targets better and lets you both chase and do fighting retreats better. I'd recommend Absorb Elements as your third spell, but without EE, Mage Armor is likely the most useful spell remaining.

At slot 2, Darkness is good for defense. plinking down as mobile concealment. On your turn, step out, attack, step back in. For an off pick, Magic Weapon is often ignored but very good for a Fighter, especially with 3-4 attacks with Crossbow Expert. If you already have a magic weapon, take Misty Step for mobility and defense, or Mirror Image or Blur if your style is to be in melee range often.

For slot 3, Haste is highly praised (just look at the posted guide for one), but consider that it'll take your action. At level 13 with 4 attacks from Crossbow Expert, it'll take at least 3 total turns to break even in damage, and 4 turns to get just 1 additional attack. It does give Dash and AC, so the benefits are more than DPR, but for short fights it might not be worth the spell slot and concentration.

Grab Fireball too, if you pumped Int. A fun combo at level 13 is attack 3 different targets, Action Surge, Fireball with saves at disadvantage.

[MaxWilson]

So. In the event my wife doesn't allow UA or SCAG for our Curse of Strahd campaign, I'm thinking about playing an Eldritch Knight, and using his weapon bond thing on a bow of some sort. I'm leaning towards a Hand Crossbow, because I think it'd be awesome. If I go Variant Human for race, what feat should I take, Crossbow Expert? And then Sharpshooter at 4?

Suggestions for a build path, including useful spells for me to learn would be awesome. I've only really played a bladelock in 5e before, for consideration.

Here's a fun Eldritch Knight build: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42


My fighter:
Rolls: 13, 13, 8, 11, 12, 15
Degalus Magnus Benedictus, small, solid-looking man with a square face and an open manner.
LG Human Baker/Retired soldier (Pythium army), Eldritch Knight 20
Str* 11 Dex (16) 20 Con* 14 Int 12 Wis* (13) 14 Cha 8 HP 164 [* = proficient save]
Good-natured, kind, earnest, trusting; naturally quiet, but likes to talk about his wife and kids back home to anyone who asks about them; socially-awkward, unable to let a joke die. Doesn't trust most Pythium aristocrats--"they only care about each other."
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Insight; baker's tools, poisoner's kit; Common, Dwarvish
Feats (8): Sharpshooter, Dex 16 => 18, Dex 18 => 20, Alert, Mobile, Lucky, Resilient (Wis), Warcaster
Cantrips (3): Mold Earth [for digging in fortifications], False Fetters [née Booming Blade], Prestidigitation [great for cleaning baking implements]
Spells (13): Darkness, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Shield, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fire Shield, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat*, Magic Weapon*, Blink*, Dimension Door* [* = non-evoc/abj]
Spell points: 38

Magic Weapon is good (synergizes with Sharpshooter) and also gives you an option against weapon-resistant creatures like elementals and werewolves. Booming Blade is usable in melee if you don't feel like just stabbing with your rapier.

Feats are listed in the order Degalus would have taken them, although picking Mobile earlier might be a good idea (especially if you picked Find Familiar instead of Expeditious Retreat), and potentially ditto for Warcaster depending on if you're doing a lot of tanking with Booming Blade or not.

Depending on your personality/alignment/etc., you might want to select Animate Dead as your 3rd level free pick instead of Blink. Having a hundred or so zombie HP on tap as meat shields can sometimes be more valuable than Blink's ability to eke out your own HP.

Note: Crossbow Expert might be optimal from a DPR perspective, but I happen to dislike it because (1) it makes melee the same as ranged combat (crossbows all the time) and that's boring; (2) using the hand crossbow bonus attack pressures you to get really close (within 120' of the enemy), which I think is too close for a real archer; (3) I like to do other things with my bonus action, like Magic Weapon or summoning a weapon with a weapon bond or Expeditious Retreat.

Eldritch Knight archers are really fun.

[Biggstick]

One of the other things to keep in mind if you're playing CoS is that you're only going to reach about level 10. These builds being offered with level 3 spells on an EK will probably not be realized in actual play.

I will echo what a few others have said and suggest the Shield spell and the Mobile feat. Being able to kite or run away could be a big difference in living or dying.

[Specter]

The guide in my signature has a sample build Arcane Archer, maybe it helps you.

[MaxWilson]

One of the other things to keep in mind if you're playing CoS is that you're only going to reach about level 10. These builds being offered with level 3 spells on an EK will probably not be realized in actual play.

I will echo what a few others have said and suggest the Shield spell and the Mobile feat. Being able to kite or run away could be a big difference in living or dying.

Good point. Sorry for the confusion. I was talking in generalities about building EK archers; not intended to address Curse of Strahd specifically.

For a 1-10 Eldritch Knight I'm still going to suggest Mold Earth and Booming Blade cantrips ASAP, and both Sharpshooter and Mobile as soon as you can afford them, plus the Magic Weapon spell at 8th level. I'd probably take Sharpshooter before Mobile because it is more party-friendly; you can let the party tank (or moon druid) block a chokepoint while you shoot enemies behind it. Normally those enemies would have +2 to AC from partial cover (your moon druid buddy's body) but Sharpshooter negates that, and it gives you other options besides such as setting up an overwatch position when you're in open terrain. The headshotting thing is often useful too.

[WeaselGuy]

I appreciate all the help guys! So, right now, it looks kinda like I'll be a Variant Human Fighter, with the Archery Fighting Type and Crossbow Expert for my level 1 feat, with my attributes prioritized as Dex>Int>Wis=Con>Str=Cha, then taking Eldritch Knight at 3 and bonding my hand crossbow and a dagger, and at level 4 taking Sharpshooter, at 6 taking Mobile, and at 8, War Caster. I think this should set me up pretty well, at least to get a character sheet started!

[Saggo]

Note: Crossbow Expert might be optimal from a DPR perspective, but I happen to dislike it because (1) it makes melee the same as ranged combat (crossbows all the time) and that's boring; (2) using the hand crossbow bonus attack pressures you to get really close (within 120' of the enemy), which I think is too close for a real archer; (3) I like to do other things with my bonus action, like Magic Weapon or summoning a weapon with a weapon bond or Expeditious Retreat.

Not to argue against it (my EK archer uses a long bow for basically the same reasons), but thematically/stylistically if you want your guy to be a crossbower, it's still nearly mandatory if just to remove Loading. I've noticed a lot of people using hand crossbows not necessarily for the bonus action and -5/+10 cheese but for the gunslinger, wild west, or urban feel.

[WeaselGuy]

Not to argue against it (my EK archer uses a long bow for basically the same reasons), but thematically/stylistically if you want your guy to be a crossbower, it's still nearly mandatory if just to remove Loading. I've noticed a lot of people using hand crossbows not necessarily for the bonus action and -5/+10 cheese but for the gunslinger, wild west, or urban feel.

One of my favorite characters I've ever played, in 3.5e, was a Deepwyrm Half-Drow Swashbuckler/Rogue, who used Versatile Combatant (DotU) to fight with a Rapier and a Hand Crossbow. He was a lot of fun, pretty much just caused a fight if there was ever the slightest reason for one.

[tieren]

I appreciate all the help guys! So, right now, it looks kinda like I'll be a Variant Human Fighter, with the Archery Fighting Type and Crossbow Expert for my level 1 feat, with my attributes prioritized as Dex>Int>Wis=Con>Str=Cha, then taking Eldritch Knight at 3 and bonding my hand crossbow and a dagger, and at level 4 taking Sharpshooter, at 6 taking Mobile, and at 8, War Caster. I think this should set me up pretty well, at least to get a character sheet started!

I would dump int, you don't need it for any of the spells anyone is suggesting for the EK.

[MaxWilson]

I would dump int, you don't need it for any of the spells anyone is suggesting for the EK.

Being able to dump Int and still get wizard spells is one of the major benefits of EK over Battlemaster/Wizard multiclass.

(That being said, I hate dumping Int from a roleplaying perspective, so I never do it. But mechanically it's fine.)

[Specter]

Being able to dump Int and still get wizard spells is one of the major benefits of EK over Battlemaster/Wizard multiclass.

(That being said, I hate dumping Int from a roleplaying perspective, so I never do it. But mechanically it's fine.)

If you're only interested in Shield/Absorb Elements/Booming Blade, then it's good. Otherwise, dumping INT gives you an even more limited spell list to play with, and that's not fun.

[WeaselGuy]

Well, I'll probably only get to level 10 or 12 or so. Which means 2nd level spells, MAYBE 3rd's (and by that time, hello Headband of Intellect!). So, I'll probably put a 12 in Int. Still more intelligent than the average human being, but not "e'gads!" level smart.

So, using the standard array thing, of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, I'd arrange them as such:

Str - 10
Dex - 15
Con - 14
Int - 13
Wis - 12
Cha - 8

[MaxWilson]

If you're only interested in Shield/Absorb Elements/Booming Blade, then it's good. Otherwise, dumping INT gives you an even more limited spell list to play with, and that's not fun.

I'm going to argue here that if you're interested in stuff like Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, not dumping Int is a necessary but insufficient criterion. The EK really doesn't have enough non-abj/evoc spells to make enchantment and crowd control spells attractive (to me at least). An Eldritch Knight 8 gets a grand total of TWO non-abj/evoc spells; whereas a Battlemaster 5/Diviner 3 in the same position would have up to ten, plus Portent to make enemies auto-fail occasionally.

In short: good point, but buffing and protection spells are often the EK's best choices anyway. It's not worth pumping Int just for the occasional Thunderwave spell.

@OP, you've heard both sides of the argument now. Hope that's helpful to you.

[Specter]

I'm going to argue here that if you're interested in stuff like Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, not dumping Int is a necessary but insufficient criterion. The EK really doesn't have enough non-abj/evoc spells to make enchantment and crowd control spells attractive (to me at least). An Eldritch Knight 8 gets a grand total of TWO non-abj/evoc spells; whereas a Battlemaster 5/Diviner 3 in the same position would have up to ten, plus Portent to make enemies auto-fail occasionally.

In short: good point, but buffing and protection spells are often the EK's best choices anyway. It's not worth pumping Int just for the occasional Thunderwave spell.

@OP, you've heard both sides of the argument now. Hope that's helpful to you.

I get it. Thing is, by dumping INT you're also dumping ranged cantrips, save cantrips, all evocation, and the awesomeness of Eldritch Strike. Level 2 spells, for instance, are entirely crap to an INT-dumper, while an EK with decent INT may still benefit from Scorching Ray and Shatter. I know, I know, Wizards have better spells at that point, but when you need area/multi damage it's there.

[MaxWilson]

Let me preface this by saying: I hope this isn't a miscommunication about what "dump" means. You can see from upthread that when I constructed a notional EK, I didn't put my actual lowest stat into Int. I put a middling stat there, not my lowest roll. Obviously you might as well prioritize Int over, say, Charisma or Strength--just not over Con and maybe not over Wis. (CERTAINLY not over Dex, since we're talking archers.)


I get it. Thing is, by dumping INT you're also dumping ranged cantrips, save cantrips, all evocation, and the awesomeness of Eldritch Strike. Level 2 spells, for instance, are entirely crap to an INT-dumper, while an EK with decent INT may still benefit from Scorching Ray and Shatter. I know, I know, Wizards have better spells at that point, but when you need area/multi damage it's there.

That's true, you are.

Ranged cantrips: okay, but worse than a longbow (unless your weapons cannot damage the foe, e.g. Rakshasa and you don't know the Magic Weapon spell). Better for a melee EK but never great.
Save cantrips: similar to ranged cantrips.
Evocation spells: good for AoE effects against swarms of weaker enemies. Weaker than weapons against single large foes.
Eldritch Strike: you need something good to use it on first. The above spells won't cut it.

I see Eldritch Strike as compensation for dumped Int to make your evocation spells still function okay--Eldritch Strike is not something that's worth stacking more Int on top of, except in a multiclassing scenario (e.g. EK 11/Illusionist 7/Rogue 2) where you have more spell slots and a better spell selection. E.g. you'd eventually have access to Bestow Curse V, Hypnotic Pattern, Confusion, Blindness, Phantasmal Force (Int save at disadvantage is about the hardest save there is for most high-CR creatures to pass), Polymorph... lots of stuff worth using Eldritch Strike on.

With a pure EK 20 build: well, if you really want an effective Fireball, you can shoot three arrows at three targets and then Fireball them (possibly via Action Surge) so they save at disadvantage. That's about all the investment Fireball is worth, and it's not like you have a lot of spell points/slots for them anyway. Not particularly worth spending ASIs on for Int; I might put a 12 or something in Int for this scenario (in fact I did, upthread) but I sure wouldn't pump Int much higher than that. I'd rather increase Dex to benefit my melee cantrips, AC, initiative, ranged damage, and saving throws.

If you were going to use Tasha's (Uncontrollable) Hideous Laughter via one of your non-evoc/abj spell picks perhaps Int would be worth a tiny bit more, but you still have very limited spell slots, and it's not that strong of a spell--can end on damage.

[Specter]

When it comes to Eldritch Strike and a high INT, I'm not thinking about debuffing and controlling (that's for full casters, sure), I'm talking about damage and survival. At level 10, I can attack someone, and on the next turn they save against my Hold Person with disadvantage and I still get my Action Surge full of crits. Who needs a Champion? The low-INT EKs.

Not Hold Person, maybe, ok, I'll take Slow; I'll attack three 11th-level fighters surrounding me and they save with disadvantage, turning their 9 attacks against me into 3, against my Shielded self. Or a plain old Lightning Bolt, if I just want to fry them and they have 20+ AC, making my attacks a pain to hit.

Is having a low-INT doable? Yes. But it removes all of these solutions from you, something I want as a player. Still, if you really need stats...

[djreynolds]

So. In the event my wife doesn't allow UA or SCAG for our Curse of Strahd campaign, I'm thinking about playing an Eldritch Knight, and using his weapon bond thing on a bow of some sort. I'm leaning towards a Hand Crossbow, because I think it'd be awesome. If I go Variant Human for race, what feat should I take, Crossbow Expert? And then Sharpshooter at 4?

Suggestions for a build path, including useful spells for me to learn would be awesome. I've only really played a bladelock in 5e before, for consideration.

Why not a bladelock with a crossbow? Lifedrinker adds charisma on top of you dexterity to damage and if you want you could throw in some EK with the build. Still go human variant and get dark vision from warlock.

And just take defensive spells from the EK, like shield and protection from evil.

[WeaselGuy]

Why not a bladelock with a crossbow? Lifedrinker adds charisma on top of you dexterity to damage and if you want you could throw in some EK with the build. Still go human variant and get dark vision from warlock.

And just take defensive spells from the EK, like shield and protection from evil.

Mostly, because I don't want to play a bladelock in back-to-back campaigns.

[Saggo]

Why not a bladelock with a crossbow? Lifedrinker adds charisma on top of you dexterity to damage and if you want you could throw in some EK with the build. Still go human variant and get dark vision from warlock.

And just take defensive spells from the EK, like shield and protection from evil.

You'd have to find a magic crossbow to work with your blade pact or get your table to houserule it.

[MaxWilson]

When it comes to Eldritch Strike and a high INT, I'm not thinking about debuffing and controlling (that's for full casters, sure), I'm talking about damage and survival. At level 10, I can attack someone, and on the next turn they save against my Hold Person with disadvantage and I still get my Action Surge full of crits. Who needs a Champion? The low-INT EKs.

Not Hold Person, maybe, ok, I'll take Slow; I'll attack three 11th-level fighters surrounding me and they save with disadvantage, turning their 9 attacks against me into 3, against my Shielded self. Or a plain old Lightning Bolt, if I just want to fry them and they have 20+ AC, making my attacks a pain to hit.

Is having a low-INT doable? Yes. But it removes all of these solutions from you, something I want as a player. Still, if you really need stats...

A pure EK can't really afford to learn Hold Person and Slow, with his limited number of non-abj/evoc picks. If he could I'd feel differently. But the minute you take Hold Person, you are choosing a niche spell that works only on humanoids and takes a full action to cast over something simple and 100% reliable like Magic Weapon that pumps all of your attacks at the cost of a bonus action. And now you also propose to double down on that strategy by pumping Int as well.

Lightning Bolt is okayish, but still not worth pumping Int for. Suppose a 15th level Eldritch Knight is contemplating spending one of his scarce spell slots to Lightning Bolt an ancient green dragon instead of firing an arrow at it. His arrows (3x +12 to hit for d8+5) will hit the dragon's AC 21 60% of the time, inflicting 17.78 damage per Attack action. (His rapier would be +10 to hit, doing 14.93 damage per round.) He could boost that to +13/d8+6 for 21.15 points of damage by casting Magic Weapon on his bow with his bonus action. Alternately, he could forgo his weapon attack to cast Lightning Bolt instead, if the dragon is within spellcasting range. The dragon has +8 to Dex saves, so if the EK had somehow boosted his Int to 19 (Headband of Intellect? or just lots of ASIs), the dragon would have to roll a 9 or better to beat the DC 17 Dex save. It saves 60% of the time and takes full damage the other 40% of the time, for an average damage of 0.4 * 28 + 0.6 * 14 = 19.6 damage per Lightning Bolt. (Eldritch Strike can increase this to 22.96.)

In short, you might as well just shoot it with arrows and save your spell slots. If you're fighting smaller and weaker things such as hobgoblins (AC 18 when using shields), Fireball/Lightning Bolt are a much better bet--but hobgoblins have only 11 HP and +1 to Dex saves. They're likely to die to a Fireball/Lightning Bolt from an Eldritch Knight 15 regardless of whether his Int is 12 or 19. It's worth taking Fireball as a known spell; it's just not worth spending ASIs on Int or otherwise prioritizing it highly.

I'm just not seeing it as a good investment. If you want to go EK 10/Diviner 5 or something, that changes the game--it's worth (moderately) pumping Int in that case because you have a whole book of actual spells to use with it. For example, you're much more likely to know Phantasmal Force, and with Eldritch Strike (presumably on an action surge) and Int 19 you have a (100% - 40%^2 = 84%) chance of getting the dragon to fail its saving throw and believe that you've just summoned a Pit Fiend to fight it. That ought to attract a fair chunk of its offensive power, and it will just rationalize away any outcomes ("I missed it! I missed it again! Die, Pit Fiend, die!").

But an Eldritch Knight 15 would never (should never) spend one of his scarce spells known on Phantasmal Force, so unlike the multiclassed EK/wizard he'll never get to pull that trick. An Arcane Trickster could do it though with one of his Enchantment/Illusion picks.

[Specter]

A pure EK can't really afford to learn Hold Person and Slow, with his limited number of non-abj/evoc picks. If he could I'd feel differently. But the minute you take Hold Person, you are choosing a niche spell that works only on humanoids and takes a full action to cast over something simple and 100% reliable like Magic Weapon that pumps all of your attacks at the cost of a bonus action. And now you also propose to double down on that strategy by pumping Int as well.

Lightning Bolt is okayish, but still not worth pumping Int for. Suppose a 15th level Eldritch Knight is contemplating spending one of his scarce spell slots to Lightning Bolt an ancient green dragon instead of firing an arrow at it. His arrows (3x +12 to hit for d8+5) will hit the dragon's AC 21 60% of the time, inflicting 17.78 damage per Attack action. (His rapier would be +10 to hit, doing 14.93 damage per round.) He could boost that to +13/d8+6 for 21.15 points of damage by casting Magic Weapon on his bow with his bonus action. Alternately, he could forgo his weapon attack to cast Lightning Bolt instead, if the dragon is within spellcasting range. The dragon has +8 to Dex saves, so if the EK had somehow boosted his Int to 19 (Headband of Intellect? or just lots of ASIs), the dragon would have to roll a 9 or better to beat the DC 17 Dex save. It saves 60% of the time and takes full damage the other 40% of the time, for an average damage of 0.4 * 28 + 0.6 * 14 = 19.6 damage per Lightning Bolt. (Eldritch Strike can increase this to 22.96.)

In short, you might as well just shoot it with arrows and save your spell slots. If you're fighting smaller and weaker things such as hobgoblins (AC 18 when using shields), Fireball/Lightning Bolt are a much better bet--but hobgoblins have only 11 HP and +1 to Dex saves. They're likely to die to a Fireball/Lightning Bolt from an Eldritch Knight 15 regardless of whether his Int is 12 or 19. It's worth taking Fireball as a known spell; it's just not worth spending ASIs on Int or otherwise prioritizing it highly.

I'm just not seeing it as a good investment. If you want to go EK 10/Diviner 5 or something, that changes the game--it's worth (moderately) pumping Int in that case because you have a whole book of actual spells to use with it. For example, you're much more likely to know Phantasmal Force, and with Eldritch Strike (presumably on an action surge) and Int 19 you have a (100% - 40%^2 = 84%) chance of getting the dragon to fail its saving throw and believe that you've just summoned a Pit Fiend to fight it. That ought to attract a fair chunk of its offensive power, and it will just rationalize away any outcomes ("I missed it! I missed it again! Die, Pit Fiend, die!").

But an Eldritch Knight 15 would never (should never) spend one of his scarce spells known on Phantasmal Force, so unlike the multiclassed EK/wizard he'll never get to pull that trick. An Arcane Trickster could do it though with one of his Enchantment/Illusion picks.

Let me just start by saying I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just making a statement.

1) I'm currently playing an EK with Hold Person. I wouldn't trade it for anything else from the 2nd-level Wizard list. Don't see the problem with it. With Eldritch Strike, my save is actually harder to beat than the Wizard's, and my INT is 16. Magic Weapon is also situationally great to beat foes who won't take damage from normal weapons, and you seem to have no problem with it. Besides, my weapon is already magic so, you know, redundance.

2) The point is not the damage itself; I imagine 3 arrows should do more damage than Lightning Bolt. The point is choices: If I'm going after someone who's afar, or right next to me, or with plate and shields up, or with a vulnerability, Lightning Bolt is better. The fact that I can choose makes it good, not the fact that I'm always using it. With a lowish INT, that choice just gets worse.

3) I don't understand you, you seem to think PF is the best spell for screwing with foes and you won't take it with your 8th-level choice? Arcane Tricksters and Wizards can get it, sure, but then they're missing out on the defensive and offensive EK power. Choices they make.

If I get to be a fighter and invest some resources for pulling some of their combos, that's another choice I make (and it's a good one, as I can empirically prove).

The best thing I've seen for dumping INT is getting some Charisma instead and multiclassing Sorcerer so you can destroy worlds with Quickened Spell and Action Surge. Otherwise, I think you'd be better by just dipping a caster for Shield.

[MaxWilson]

Let me just start by saying I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just making a statement.

1) I'm currently playing an EK with Hold Person. I wouldn't trade it for anything else from the 2nd-level Wizard list. Don't see the problem with it. With Eldritch Strike, my save is actually harder to beat than the Wizard's, and my INT is 16. Magic Weapon is also situationally great to beat foes who won't take damage from normal weapons, and you seem to have no problem with it. Besides, my weapon is already magic so, you know, redundance.

2) The point is not the damage itself; I imagine 3 arrows should do more damage than Lightning Bolt. The point is choices: If I'm going after someone who's afar, or right next to me, or with plate and shields up, or with a vulnerability, Lightning Bolt is better. The fact that I can choose makes it good, not the fact that I'm always using it. With a lowish INT, that choice just gets worse.

3) I don't understand you, you seem to think PF is the best spell for screwing with foes and you won't take it with your 8th-level choice? Arcane Tricksters and Wizards can get it, sure, but then they're missing out on the defensive and offensive EK power. Choices they make.

RE: point #1, I'm pleased that it works well for you in your game. You must face a lot of NPC-style enemies. (Your save isn't hard to beat than the wizard's, just your initial save, so your spell won't last as long as his will, but I'm sure it lasts plenty long enough to kill your enemies.) And as you said, you already have a magic weapon (a bow, presumably? since we're talking about archers here).

RE: #2, I don't understand your point. A bow can also be used against an enemy who is afar, or right next to you (eat an opportunity attack if necessary to abolish disadvantage; or switch to rapier), or with plate and shield (I've already showed the math), and it's free. Moreover, if the enemy has a vulnerability to lightning but high AC, Lightning Bolt is good, with or without pumped Int. Pumping Int from 12 to 19 has a negligible impact on Lightning Bolt. You want to talk about choices--I agree, choices are good. But an Int 12 EK has those same choices, at least in this case.

RE: #3, no, I don't think it's the best. I think it's one of a cluster of spells which is situationally useful against high-CR creatures and which together comprise a useful arsenal; but an EK can't afford the whole arsenal, or even a big chunk of it. Maybe if you already have a magic weapon (as you do) it might be worth taking in lieu of Magic Weapon, but honestly I would pick Web over Phantasmal Force. I would, however, pick Phantasmal Force over Web against an ancient green dragon, and therein lies the point.

I'm not trying to "win" the "argument", Specter, nor make you change your mind. I'm trying to make sure the OP hears the arguments for and against pumping Int so he can make up his own mind relative to how his DM operates. If he's seen lots of humanoid enemies in the past, and the DM isn't a fan of Counterspell, then high Int and Hold Person on an EK may in fact be just the thing for him. (Or perhaps he will go for an EK/wizard multiclass.) People on the Internet give general advice, but it's up to you to take the advice which applies to your actual game table.

Peace.

[djreynolds]

You'd have to find a magic crossbow to work with your blade pact or get your table to houserule it.

Right but can't the blade pact be any weapon, until you find a magic crossbow? Until then just use a rapier or bow or eldritch blast til then. I just read a thread about how nasty ranged warlocks are, pretty cool.

[MaxWilson]

Right but can't the blade pact be any weapon, until you find a magic crossbow? Until then just use a rapier or bow or eldritch blast til then. I just read a thread about how nasty ranged warlocks are, pretty cool.

Technically it can only be any melee weapon, by RAW.

If your DM is a slave to RAW that may be an issue. Or if he can think of some kind of a good reason why it should be restricted to melee weapons, ditto. Since the PHB doesn't explain itself I suspect most DMs would be okay ruling that ranged weapons are fine too. I would be, anyway.

[djreynolds]

Technically it can only be any melee weapon, by RAW.

If your DM is a slave to RAW that may be an issue. Or if he can think of some kind of a good reason why it should be restricted to melee weapons, ditto. Since the PHB doesn't explain itself I suspect most DMs would be okay ruling that ranged weapons are fine too. I would be, anyway.

"Sh*t. Oh hell, let's just do what we always do. Hijack some nuclear weapons and hold the world hostage."

I would then look into a hunter ranger with some splash of battlemaster and rogue

[Sir cryosin]

Well, I'll probably only get to level 10 or 12 or so. Which means 2nd level spells, MAYBE 3rd's (and by that time, hello Headband of Intellect!). So, I'll probably put a 12 in Int. Still more intelligent than the average human being, but not "e'gads!" level smart.

So, using the standard array thing, of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, I'd arrange them as such:

Str - 10
Dex - 15
Con - 14
Int - 13
Wis - 12
Cha - 8

Don't count on that headband CoS is low magic iteams campaign we are lv8 and only have 2 magic iteams. I'm not running CoS but my DM and a player that also DM'S is running it and we were talking about in the book us say magic iteam are hard to come by or something like that. So with that in mind don't count on the headband (p.s it not in the book.) And two pick magic weapon spell when you can get it. Oh have someone in the party get detect magic and have them spam it.

[WeaselGuy]

Don't count on that headband CoS is low magic iteams campaign we are lv8 and only have 2 magic iteams. I'm not running CoS but my DM and a player that also DM'S is running it and we were talking about in the book us say magic iteam are hard to come by or something like that. So with that in mind don't count on the headband (p.s it not in the book.) And two pick magic weapon spell when you can get it. Oh have someone in the party get detect magic and have them spam it.

As it stands, I don't think I'll even need the headband. I'm probably going to focus on self-buffing, or using no-save or save-for-half spells.

Right now, the party is going to consist of me (either an Arcane Archer or a Bladesinger (90% going AA)), a Half-Orc Barbarian, and a, and I quote, "not a MURDERHOBO while actually still being a MURDERHOBO". That still leaves 2 more players to decide what they want to be.

[Saggo]

Right but can't the blade pact be any weapon, until you find a magic crossbow? Until then just use a rapier or bow or eldritch blast til then. I just read a thread about how nasty ranged warlocks are, pretty cool.
It's just a consideration. You're not guaranteed a magic crossbow without direct DM intervention, so you'll have several levels (potentially into 13 for Lifedrinker) you're not running your intended build.


Technically it can only be any melee weapon, by RAW.

If your DM is a slave to RAW that may be an issue. Or if he can think of some kind of a good reason why it should be restricted to melee weapons, ditto. Since the PHB doesn't explain itself I suspect most DMs would be okay ruling that ranged weapons are fine too. I would be, anyway.

Some people prefer to use 5e as written, as much as could be reasonably expected. Regardless of preference, the feature's pretty clear as we've both noted, so the houserule caveat should be explicitly mentioned.

[MaxWilson]

Some people prefer to use 5e as written, as much as could be reasonably expected. Regardless of preference, the feature's pretty clear as we've both noted, so the houserule caveat should be explicitly mentioned.

Sorry about my tone in the quoted paragraph. I spoke carelessly. I understand what you mean about 5E as written--I also weigh the cognitive complexity cost when pondering a new houserule, and there are some things I'd like to fix but haven't because I would rather stay close to the rules as written most of the time.

I'd weigh player happiness against cognitive complexity cost, and that would be enough to tip the balance in this case for the warlock--but I didn't mean to disparage someone who might make a different choice.

I apologize.

P.S. I certainly have no objection to explicitly someone pointing out RAW, either. More information is only good.

[djreynolds]

Well lets look at it this way.

This is for CoS?

What level can an EK grab the magic weapon spell? And remember it is also concentration. Maybe 6th level or maybe 8th.

Can you get your hands on the ability to make silvered arrows or bolts? SPOLIER.. Rictovo has silvered bolts.

They have in the guides a good build for EK arcane archer, and it very good.

And you can max out intelligence and dex as an EK archer, making your spells a bit more versatile. But in the end, you're not bringing much to the table, IMO, as an EK archer is a low magic world.

If this is for CoS, what about a bladesinger archer? You'll get 2 attacks at 6th level, plenty of spells and spell slots. Can easily dip fighter for 1 level for archery style. And full spell progression.

Even a ranger with 5 levels/ x cleric could do well and war cleric gets access I believe to divine favor(better than hunter's mark as its radiant) and magic weapon, and of course bless. Or even EK 6/ x cleric or EK 6/ x any wizard.

[WeaselGuy]

Well lets look at it this way.

This is for CoS?

yes.


What level can an EK grab the magic weapon spell? And remember it is also concentration. Maybe 6th level or maybe 8th.

Magic Weapon is a 2nd level spell, so level 7.


Can you get your hands on the ability to make silvered arrows or bolts? SPOLIER.. Rictovo has silvered bolts.

Uh... I dunno. Although if that guy has bolts, good thing I'm using a crossbow?


They have in the guides a good build for EK arcane archer, and it very good.

And you can max out intelligence and dex as an EK archer, making your spells a bit more versatile. But in the end, you're not bringing much to the table, IMO, as an EK archer is a low magic world.

We are a group of 5 players plus a DM, and after playing a nearly unkillable Bladelock in our last campaign (seriously, he racked up some titles, "The Undying" being one of them) and saving the party from a tpk by wiping out 6 mobs solo, I don't need to have the spotlight on me this time. I just want something different and fun.


If this is for CoS, what about a bladesinger archer? You'll get 2 attacks at 6th level, plenty of spells and spell slots. Can easily dip fighter for 1 level for archery style. And full spell progression.

I originally thought about playing a Bladesinger (actually, originally it was going to be a Sun Soul Monk, and then thought about Bladesinger) but I don't know if my wife is going to allow the SCAG or even any of the UA content.


Even a ranger with 5 levels/ x cleric could do well and war cleric gets access I believe to divine favor(better than hunter's mark as its radiant) and magic weapon, and of course bless. Or even EK 6/ x cleric or EK 6/ x any wizard.
Along the same note as above, she also doesn't want me to break her game, and gets a little leery of a bunch of multiclassing and min-maxing (within reason, I'm one of the 2 better optimizers in our group), so I don't really want anything crazy overpowered or complicated, which is why I decided on EK Archer.

In summary, unless my wife allows the SCAG, then I'm pretty set on being an Arcane Archer, using a Hand Crossbow. Because flair. The great thing is, that even though I'm a "gish", I'm also a fighter. Even though I'm focused on using my Hand Crossbow, I still do respectable damage with a Rapier and a shield. Because I'm still a fighter. I do thank everybody for all the insight and helpful tips that they've given me on this thread, especially since this is seriously going to be only my 3rd character in 5th edition.

[Saggo]

Sorry about my tone in the quoted paragraph. I spoke carelessly. I understand what you mean about 5E as written--I also weigh the cognitive complexity cost when pondering a new houserule, and there are some things I'd like to fix but haven't because I would rather stay close to the rules as written most of the time.

I'd weigh player happiness against cognitive complexity cost, and that would be enough to tip the balance in this case for the warlock--but I didn't mean to disparage someone who might make a different choice.

I apologize.

P.S. I certainly have no objection to explicitly someone pointing out RAW, either. More information is only good.

No worries, seems like we all have the same idea.


Magic Weapon is a 2nd level spell, so level 7.
Level 8. EK gets 2nd level slots at level 7 but you need the non-abjuration/evocation pick at level 8 to get it.

[djreynolds]

I think your build will be fine and you can find damage sources from other classes, and sharpshooter will help with damage resistant enemies.

And if you mess with your DM, you might be making your own dinner for a long time.

And take resilient wisdom sooner than later, lot of stuff that can charm you, etc. Protection from evil is a very good spell to have up. I have a feeling you will spend more time with that rapier and shield in melee than you think. There are silvered short swords