Could non-epic caster innate 2nd level spell?

[ayvango]

I wonder if there is any shenanigan available to made possible for a non-epic character to innate 2-nd level spell. Could versatile spellcaster help?

[Morcleon]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold to pick up Improved Spell Capacity. :smalltongue:

[ayvango]

I would be more precise. Only 3.5 sources are allowed. ELH is 3.0

[Morcleon]

I would be more precise. Only 3.5 sources are allowed. ELH is 3.0

Unupdated 3.0 sources are valid 3.5 sources. If that's not allowed, then there's no way to get 10th level spell slots.

[Inevitability]

You could make a 2nd-level spell count as 1st-level by applying Sanctum Spell to it. Wear a helmet.

[Âmesang]

Improved Spell Capacity is also one of the [Epic] feats listed in the 3.5 DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide (page 210).

[ShurikVch]

Which one Innate Spell - from Player's Guide to Faerûn, or Complete Arcane?

[Troacctid]

Step 1: Be a dragonwrought kobold (or another creature of the dragon type, but dragonwrought kobold is the only LA +0 one, so it's the best) and make sure you are at old age or older.
Step 2: Take Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as one of your feats.
Step 3: Gain 17 levels of sorcerer. (Be sure to perform the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage so that you can cast 9th level spells.)
Step 4: Take marshal as your 18th level. As your 18th level feat, choose Improved Spell Capacity. Since you already have Skill Focus (Diplomacy), you also gain a bonus feat of your choice, so choose Innate Spell, sacrificing your 10th level spell slot.

And that's how you do it.

[ayvango]

Which one Innate Spell - from Player's Guide to Faerûn, or Complete Arcane?
From complete arcane.


or another creature of the dragon type
What is so special for dragon type?


If that's not allowed, then there's no way to get 10th level spell slots.
May be it is possible to lower slot level for a specific spell sacrificing something equal?

[Necroticplague]

What is so special for dragon type?
Dragons have a rule that dragons over a certain age category can select [epic] feats


May be it is possible to lower slot level for a specific spell sacrificing something equal?

Errrrr.......what? Sorry, but my best attempts at interpreting this word salad fail. Can you clarify?

[Darrin]

Use Improved Sigil: Krau/Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell/Versatile Spell/Heighten Spell to cast 11th level spells. At 18th level, take Extra Slot to get a 10th level slot. Finish off with Loremaster's "Applicable Knowledge" Secret to grab Innate Spell as a bonus feat.

[Renen]

Innate 2nd level spell?
Innate isn't a verb, as far as I know.

[ayvango]

Innate 2nd level spell?
Innate isn't a verb, as far as I know.
Sorry. I'm foreign to english. Innate seems so like a verb.


take Extra Slot to get a 10th level slot
What a nice feat. Shadowcraft mage handbook certainly needs an update. It is too underpowered without the Extra Slot feat.

[Necroticplague]

Sorry. I'm foreign to english. Innate seems so much like a verb.

No, it's an adjective.

Anyway, for my own crack at getting a high level Innate Spell:
Illumian spontaneous diviner wizard 18 Generic Warrior 2 (first generic warrior level is after wizard 3, second is after wizard 18) . Sigils: Krau, any other.
1:Silent Spell
3:Earth Sense
4:Heighten Spell
6:Sanctum Spell
9:Earth Spell
11:Quicken Spell
Taint Bonus: Versatile Spellcaster
12: Eldritch Corruption
16:Still Spell
18:Improved Sigil (Krau)
Bonus*:Extra Spell Slot
20:Innate Spell

*=Either from a Pact Certain or another taint bonus feat, or from DCFSing away Scribe Scroll

So, find a level 9 wizard divination spell with a verbal component, select it for Improved Sigil (Krau). While in your sanctum with a living, willing ally, and standing on solid stone, you could cast that spell as a level 15 spell, so Extra Spell slot gives you a level 14 spell slot, which can be fed to Innate Spell to give you a level 6 SLA. And considering all the effort it takes to pull this off, and would probably be easier and less cheesy to just Bind something with the SLA you want. I vaguely remember reading something about Circle Magic who's main purpose was casting spells at a really high spell level, might come back when I can reasearch that.

[Crake]

Any method you can use to gain a 2 spell level increase in your spells (earth spell+ heighten spell, snowcasting, improved sigil krau, sanctum spell) followed by extra spell slot can get you a 10th level spell slot which you can then use for innate spell. Hell, if you use all 4 of those, you could get a 12th level spellslot and innate spell a 4th level spell. Or if you want, you can play bunny hop with DCFS, to get progressively higher spell slots, since extra spell slot qualifies itself, you can just steadily swap 2 feats in and out for progressively higher level slots, until you hit 17th level slots, at which point you can just innate spell a 9th level spell. That's getting into high PO/TO though (depending on your table), but just an interesting thought, since it's just the logical conclusion of what people are suggesting here, I mean, if you can do it for a 2nd level spell, why not go all the way to 9th level right?

[ayvango]

Any method you can use to gain a 2 spell level increase in your spells (earth spell+ heighten spell, snowcasting, improved sigil krau, sanctum spell) followed by extra spell slot can get you a 10th level spell slot which you can then use for innate spell. Hell, if you use all 4 of those, you could get a 12th level spellslot and innate spell a 4th level spell. Or if you want, you can play bunny hop with DCFS, to get progressively higher spell slots, since extra spell slot qualifies itself, you can just steadily swap 2 feats in and out for progressively higher level slots, until you hit 17th level slots, at which point you can just innate spell a 9th level spell. That's getting into high PO/TO though (depending on your table), but just an interesting thought
since it's just the logical conclusion of what people are suggesting here, I mean, if you can do it for a 2nd level spell, why not go all the way to 9th level right?
The same thought came to me too. Innate miracle and you can throw away all you other spellcasting. Wizard get new slot level each two levels. Pick instead classes that gives feats (like Monk, Cleric, Fighter, etc) and you could progress your spell levels much faster. And once you hit 17th level, you may not bother about number of spell slots, since you could make 9th level spell innate.

But lets reconsider what feats really may be used for progress.



1: [-] Heighten Spell
2: [✓] Sanctum Spell
3: [🔥] Earth Spell
4: [✗] Versatile Spellcaster
5: [✗] Eldritch Corruption
6: [✗] Improved Sigil (Krau)
7. [✓] Snowcasting

Heighten Spell has a maximum of 9th level. So you could not use to get spells beyond limit. So, things that makes metamagic cheaper would not give advantage beyond 9th level. Incantatrix's instant metamagic and improved metamagic, eldritch corruption, divine metamagic are of no use. But they allow you instantly go to the 9th level though.

Improved Sigil (Krau) explicitly says that it is has heighten spell mechanics: "as if affected by the Heighten Spell feat, but with no change to the spell's casting time or spell slot"

Versatile Spellcaster says "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher". But there are zero 10th level spells (and above). You could use Heigten Spell metamatic to fit lower level spell into higher level slot, but it could not go above 9th level, see as above.

Sanctum spell is ok, because it directly modifiers spell level without interacting with heighten spell. Same is for snowcasting. So far we got +2 modifier, but it has the same problem as Versatile Spellcaster what spell could fill the slot to be modified?

Earth Spell is the bomb, because it removes limitation for the Heighten Spell feat. You can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on. So nothing prevents you now from using heighten spell on higher level slots.

There are two ways to interpret the feat wording. One is that only the real slot used matters, so you could get only +1 improved and could not use cheaper metamagic from the Eldritch Corruption and others. But it has a good point too: you could combine many metamagics like Empower-Maximize-Reach-Spell, take single point in heighten and it would give you 2+3+2+1 = +8 heighten. Other is that intended heighten improvement counts, not a slot used. In that case quicken spell no more counts as heighten, but all tricks that made metamagic cheaper allows to skip levels fastly. Take Eldritch Corruption and you could go up by the step of two. Take divine metamagic with extra turnings and night road and go with +12 spell level steps. Incanatrix's instant metamagic allows you to get infinitely high on single step. The third options is to ban Earth Magic completely and disband Killer Gnome's Cabal.

There is a problem with practical optimization for the Extra Slot shenanigan. The feat does not require to keep slot used as prerequisite. So you could exchange two Extra Slot feats with DCFS in a loop until they become arbitrary high. There is no sense in infinite optimization. Whatever ever way you choose the result would be the same - overwrought DM. I faced two types of DMs. The first just would say that you character became overflowed with arcane energy (add 1-5 minutes of roleplay bull****) so he blown to small pieces, his soul could not be recovered by any way, and DM personally would forbid me to play casters forever. The second DM considerately approaches loopholes in rulebooks and allows to discuss and patch rules following the policy of the list intrusion.

So let's assume that we play with the second type DM and it patched infinite loops in the following way.
1. Extra Slot becomes unavailable, when the spellcaster become unable to cast spells of extra slot's level + 1. Just like the Innate Spell feat works
2. Earth Spell works the second way: counts applied Heighten Spell levels, not an actual spell slot.
3. Instant Metamagic allows heighten up to 9 levels (so no infinite spell level with single step)
4. Versatile Spellcaster could be used to cast only spells that the character able to spontaneously cast. (Not a infinite loop, just bonus to fix the cleric spontaneous cast)

The best strategy in that way is to use Earth Spell and Divine Metamagic and go with two steps: 1 (cleric) + 12 (DMM) + 1 (Earth Spell) - 1 (Extra Slot) = 13. 13 + 12 = 25 (large enough for practical purposes). All other feats should be devoted to metamagic and improving caster level. Since caster level is the only thing that matters, when you use Miracle as innate spell. So humble cleric could become Killer Gnome's killer.

[Jack_Simth]

Use Improved Sigil: Krau/Sanctum Spell/Earth Spell/Versatile Spell/Heighten Spell to cast 11th level spells. At 18th level, take Extra Slot to get a 10th level slot. Finish off with Loremaster's "Applicable Knowledge" Secret to grab Innate Spell as a bonus feat.

Red Wizard + Circle Magic can get it higher. Yes, normally heighten is limited to 9th, but the ability says you can go up to twenty... then take extra slot to get a 19th, and use Innate Spell to get an 11th level spell permanently... oh, wait....

[Crake]

So let's assume that we play with the second type DM and it patched infinite loops in the following way.
1. Extra Slot becomes unavailable, when the spellcaster become unable to cast spells of extra slot's level + 1. Just like the Innate Spell feat works
2. Earth Spell works the second way: counts applied Heighten Spell levels, not an actual spell slot.
3. Instant Metamagic allows heighten up to 9 levels (so no infinite spell level with single step)
4. Versatile Spellcaster could be used to cast only spells that the character able to spontaneously cast. (Not a infinite loop, just bonus to fix the cleric spontaneous cast)

There's a much easier patch: Extra slot can only grant up to 9th level spell slots, if you want above 9th, you need the epic feat instead.