Caster help

[Mrc.]

In a couple of weeks I'll be starting my first game of Next Ed and I'm really looking forward to it :smallsmile: However, as we're welcoming a new member to the group and said new member has expressed an interest in Druid, I've let him take that role, meaning I'll be filling as another caster.

Our team thus far looks like: Druid, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian (probably) and me.

I feel that we have a strong enough front line and that with a druid and cleric providing healing and CC I have the option to go for a full-nova caster, but Sorcerers seem to suck (as always because WotC STILL hates them) and I'm not sure who fills that role better between wizards and warlocks. I could always double-up on another class if that's better but honestly I'd rather avoid that especially for my first game with this system.

I'd really appreciate any guidance regarding what would help fill out the party the best, and if I'm wrong with the Sorc please let me know because I've honestly never played a sorcerer and would love to try one at some point.

Thanks in advance :smallsmile:

[R.Shackleford]

The Sorcerer is a good blaster, but that isn't where they excel. You see, there are three Metamagics that make the Sorcerer quite fantastic.

Subtle: In and out of combat this can be used so many ways that it stopped being funny and became funny again.

Careful: Don't use this on your blast spells. Use this on your Control spells.

Twin: two concentration spells at one time? Yes. Can help with damage, control, or buffing.


Other Metamagics are good/great and can help a lot but these metamagics are the three aces and really allow you to go beyond anything you could normally do.

The Sorcerer is 90% Awesome, they don't suck at all haha.

Sorcerer would work great in this party.

[bid]

Cha is a good plan. Sorc or bard, whichever style you prefer.

Your melee will love your twinned buffs.

[Gastronomie]

Depends on the level, but Twinned + Haste + Prof on CON saves makes Sorcerer a pretty damn strong and solid addition to the given party. War Caster would be a nice Feat to take, since losing concentration on Haste can be a terrible moment.

Bards are also always absolutely wonderful in parties where the main roles have already been filled.

[R.Shackleford]

Depends on the level, but Twinned + Haste + Prof on CON saves makes Sorcerer a pretty damn strong and solid addition to the given party. War Caster would be a nice Feat to take, since losing concentration on Haste can be a terrible moment.

Bards are also always absolutely wonderful in parties where the main roles have already been filled.

The OP has a Fighter and Rogue, Enlarge Person is the better combat buff for these classes.

Haste gives the Rogue nothing new due to cunning action and the Fighter is already doing +damage+. What Enlarged Person gives you is that sweet sweet advantage on Athletics checks.

For the Rogue, Expertise + Advantage = Win. Bonus points if you did a Strength Based Rogue.

For the Fighter they actually get a boost to their skill check for once (one that they are proficient with). And the size bonus helps.

Rogues don't need to hide after combat starts. So a large rogue isn't a problem there.

[TheFlyingCleric]

The OP has a Fighter and Rogue, Enlarge Person is the better combat buff for these classes.

Haste gives the Rogue nothing new due to cunning action and the Fighter is already doing +damage+. What Enlarged Person gives you is that sweet sweet advantage on Athletics checks.

For the Rogue, Expertise + Advantage = Win. Bonus points if you did a Strength Based Rogue.

For the Fighter they actually get a boost to their skill check for once (one that they are proficient with). And the size bonus helps.

Rogues don't need to hide after combat starts. So a large rogue isn't a problem there.

Wrong. Haste is so powerful on both the Rogue and Fighter; Fighter because they can disengage or dash for free and use that to move around enemies easily (double movement as well!). Especially if they're a ranged fighter.

On rogue it's wonderful, because one extra attack is twice as many attacks for them; two chances to get sneak attack. And by using some cheesy readied actions they can do sneak attack damage twice in 1 round of combat. Or they can even use their Action, cunning action, Haste action, (all dashes) and doubled movement speed from haste to move 240 feet in a single turn! Because why not?

As for hiding in combat, it can be a very good way to both stop enemies from attacking you and gain advantage on your next attack.

[djreynolds]

With a good DM and plenty of merchants, a wizard can have a nice varied spell book to handle all occasions. Wizards are even easier to play now as you can prepare whatever you want, but you are not stuck casting those spells unless you need them.

Yes the cleric and druid together have plenty of utility spells to cover most things, but I think a wizard would do well here.

[R.Shackleford]

Wrong. Haste is so powerful on both the Rogue and Fighter; Fighter because they can disengage or dash for free and use that to move around enemies easily (double movement as well!). Especially if they're a ranged fighter.

On rogue it's wonderful, because one extra attack is twice as many attacks for them; two chances to get sneak attack. And by using some cheesy readied actions they can do sneak attack damage twice in 1 round of combat. Or they can even use their Action, cunning action, Haste action, (all dashes) and doubled movement speed from haste to move 240 feet in a single turn! Because why not?

As for hiding in combat, it can be a very good way to both stop enemies from attacking you and gain advantage on your next attack.

Wrong. You need to look at what the classes already do versus what the spell gives them.

Haste gives the Fighter and Rogue nothing new. They can already do plenty of damage.

The Rogue especially doesn't need another 1d4+Dexterity or Strength Mod damage and they already have cunning action. Hasting a Rogue is a waste.

The Fighter doesn't typically need to run around the battle field. He goes to one place and kills. Adding another attack doesn't give them anything new to do. Advantage on athletics allows the Fighter to have advantage on the best combat skill in the game.

Once battle starts you don't typically need to hide, rogues do quite well with Enlarged person + sneak attacking.

Want to know the biggest downside to Haste? Because this is a bounded accuracy system you will fail that con save at some point, you aren't a 10th level rogue after all. When you fail that con save or accidentally cast a spell that needs concentration... Your fighter and rogue lose a turn.

Haste is good on classes that don't primarily focus on damage as it allows them to get into that higher dpr range. Bards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Wizards get something out of Haste because they aren't already primary damage dealers.

Enlarged Person > Haste for primary damage dealers. That advantage can help immensely with knocking a foe to the ground, grappling, or even jumping.


Plus there are so many Rogues out there that aren't the sneaking kind that being large doesn't hurt them at all.

[MrStabby]

Sorcerers are probably the best blasters - the problem is that blasting isn't very good. Warlock is also good, coming out ahead at some levels, behind on others.

Sorcerers are an amazing class, if somewhat maligned. They don't get every spell they want and if you build exclusively for blasting (taking the most damage efficient spell each level) then they turn out a bit crap as they can run out of resources just trying to keep up with fighter classes. If you take more battlefield control spells and things like careful spell then you are more powerful and more versatile as well as probably being more fun to play.



A lot of other factors may depend on the DM. Do you need knowledge checks covered? If so then Wizard is solid. Does he like casters? If so then Lore bard for Counterspell is very neat.

You could also go cleric as well - but a different domain. Cleric domains are more significant than wizard schools - different channel divinity, different domain spells, proficiency, bonuses etc.. A light cleric who sits back and blasts and uses ranged support spells is functionally quite different to a heavily armoured war cleric who spends his time in melee with spirit guardians up around him. Yes there is some overlap in spells but a lot of these are spells that stack well (two spiritual weapons are pretty much twice as good as one, two casters with water walk is less so).

[Mrc.]

Thanks for the feedback thus far guys, it's been enlightening. I'll be speaking to most of the group later today to try and see what sort of roles they envision themselves playing but if I can get away with playing a Sorc I will. Guess I'm just a bit too used to 3.5 where they got shafted pretty hard compared to wizards (although so did pretty much everyone) and I saw they had almost no spells known at later levels and assumed WotC had pulled the same trick here.

The reason I thought I'd go for a sorc in the first place is the cleric is almost certainly going to go for a mixture of healbot and buffing (the player always chooses cleric and always goes for that sort of build) and if the druid goes for battlefield control spells (though as he's new to the group we really have no idea what he'll do) then damage would augment our frontline. If it turns out we're short of CC I can always go down that route if need be, I just want to fill any gaps in our party

[Gastronomie]

Some people hate it because it feels really power-gamey, but Sorcerer X/ Warlock 2 is a really solid and common build in 5e. It's honestly the creators' fault that it's strong, but anyways, it's pretty darn useful.

Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast (the Eldritch Invocation) enhances your cantrips' blasting abilities wonderfully, adding to the "backrow blaster" build you seem to wanna create here.

The other invocation could be any of the following:
-Repelling Blast (Blast enemies off cliffs and into Walls of Fire)
-Devil's Sight (Wide darkvision range - meaning you can target more enemies with your spells during night, and also, combo with Darkness to troll your opponents)
-Fiendish Vigor (Since it can be cast at will, you basically get 8 temporary hit points at the start of every single battle, which is absolutely wonderful. This also allows you to lower CON to invest in more CHA or some other stat)
-Mask of Many Faces (For all your hilarious RP moment needs. Your imagination is the only limit)
-Misty Visions (Again, hilarious RP utility. Combine with Minor Illusion's "Sound version" for maximum effect.)

[R.Shackleford]

Sorcerers are probably the best blasters - the problem is that blasting isn't very good. Warlock is also good, coming out ahead at some levels, behind on others.

Sorcerers are an amazing class, if somewhat maligned. They don't get every spell they want and if you build exclusively for blasting (taking the most damage efficient spell each level) then they turn out a bit crap as they can run out of resources just trying to keep up with fighter classes. If you take more battlefield control spells and things like careful spell then you are more powerful and more versatile as well as probably being more fun to play.



A lot of other factors may depend on the DM. Do you need knowledge checks covered? If so then Wizard is solid. Does he like casters? If so then Lore bard for Counterspell is very neat.

You could also go cleric as well - but a different domain. Cleric domains are more significant than wizard schools - different channel divinity, different domain spells, proficiency, bonuses etc.. A light cleric who sits back and blasts and uses ranged support spells is functionally quite different to a heavily armoured war cleric who spends his time in melee with spirit guardians up around him. Yes there is some overlap in spells but a lot of these are spells that stack well (two spiritual weapons are pretty much twice as good as one, two casters with water walk is less so).

Sorcerer is, at best, 3rd in blasting.

But if OP is OK with going cleric, light/knowledge/really any domain... clerics make great blasty/debuff builds.

Guiding Bolt is a fantastic blast spell. 4d6 + adv for someone with a level 1 spell? Yessss.

You could put Sanctuary on your cleric friend, no concentration, and sit back and blast/spiritual weapon/concentrate on bless while your healing bot runs around with a pretty good buff on.