Scout / ranger / rouge TWF build

[Chewychunga]

Looking for some help on making a TWF build that's part skill monkey and can still hold it own
I'm playing as a kobold so race set
Mainly need help with class choice / feats
Was looking at swift ambusher scout/ rouge for sneak attack and other one for scout / ranger? For skirmish
Could I do like 1 rouge (sneak attack) 2 ranger(feats) 17 scout so I have like 18 rouge sneak attack 19 scout skirmish? Or ??
Also what feats needed for TWF? I have high Dex and int

[Ethernil]

The only thing rouge is gona give you is red cheeks. Rogue on the other hand as the class doesnt syergize well with scout as their bonus damages have different trigger conditions and almost never get to use both.

Scout 4 Ranger 15 cloistered cleric 1 is a trully amazing skill monkey build that works from lvl 1. Read dictum mortums swift hunter handbook, there you can find all the alternative class features and feats you need. Main idea is start as scout for 8+ int skills ×4 at lvl 1, then get 2 lvls of ranger for the bonus feat followed by 3 scout lvls so you can grab swift hunter with your lvl 6 feat.
Ditch your animal companion for bonuses to spell casting since it is weak even without multiclassing. You can either play melee or ranged, the cloistered cleri dip is mainly for turn undead to fuel the travel devotion feat that makes you take a movie action using a swift action so that you can move and full attack.

[Troacctid]

Instead of Two-Weapon Fighting, just use your natural attacks. Kobolds come with a built-in claw-claw-bite routine, and you can't use the claws if your hands are full, so why bother with weapons? Grab Multiattack, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and some form of pounce and you should be in business. Toss in the Dragon Tail feat, maybe, if you want to add a tail attack into the mix.

For your Draconic Rite of Passage, make sure you're not just picking a spell that you could use off a wand. You want one like Mage Armor, Ghostly Tail, Chill Touch, that sort of thing, where the caster level actually matters.

[Willie the Duck]

Looking for some help on making a TWF build that's part skill monkey and can still hold it own
I'm playing as a kobold so race set
Mainly need help with class choice / feats
Was looking at swift ambusher scout/ rouge for sneak attack and other one for scout / ranger? For skirmish
Could I do like 1 rouge (sneak attack) 2 ranger(feats) 17 scout so I have like 18 rouge sneak attack 19 scout skirmish? Or ??
Also what feats needed for TWF? I have high Dex and int

First and foremost, you've been online at this site since march, and haven't gotten it drummed into your head that it is rogue?

Does your DM enforce multiclassing xp penalties? If so, you need to keep each of these within a level of each other, or you will suffer penalties.

I am very confused about this sentence:

Could I do like 1 rouge (sneak attack) 2 ranger(feats) 17 scout so I have like 18 rouge sneak attack 19 scout skirmish? Or ??

Can you break that down and use actual sentence structure so that we can understand you? Thanks! I think there's something in there about using the feats that let you raise your skirmish while advancing as a ranger, or as a scout and advance your sneak attack. I'm not sure.

Other than that, can you tell us what alignment you are thinking of, is this a standard kobold socially (worships Kurtulmak, etc.), what game world you are in?

Also, what levels are you playing to?

[nedz]

Swift Ambusher ( Complete Scoundrel p81) Allows you to add your rogue levels to your scout levels for skirmishing, but not the other way around.

Swift Hunter ( Complete Scoundrel p81) Allows you to add your Ranger levels to your scout levels for skirmishing.

I don't think it's worth doing both in one build so pick one option and stick with it. The optimal levels of Scout are 3 or 4 - though 3 is slightly better: unless you really must have that free feat because of the opportunity cost of being a level behind in your main class.

[Troacctid]

I actually think it is worth dipping ranger and taking Swift Hunter even if you are already taking Swift Ambusher, because it lets you apply your skirmish damage to undead and constructs, which is pretty good, and the opportunity cost is low.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The optimal levels of Scout are 3 or 4 - though 3 is slightly better: unless you really must have that free feat because of the opportunity cost of being a level behind in your main class.
If you don't get the bonus feat, you're delaying other feats to get those class features, so it's not clear-cut advantageous to stay at scout 3. (Mystic) Rangers sure have useful stuff, but a one-level delay is not a big deal; I'd still take that fourth scout level. If you really want your spellcasting, you can take it after you get your fifth-level ranger spells (mystic ranger 10), or after your third favoured enemy (regular ranger 10, but dipping barbarian or druid for another is pretty nice).

[nedz]

I actually think it is worth dipping ranger and taking Swift Hunter even if you are already taking Swift Ambusher, because it lets you apply your skirmish damage to undead and constructs, which is pretty good, and the opportunity cost is low.
That's a good point - but only one level and it does cost you a feat as well.


If you don't get the bonus feat, you're delaying other feats to get those class features, so it's not clear-cut advantageous to stay at scout 3. (Mystic) Rangers sure have useful stuff, but a one-level delay is not a big deal; I'd still take that fourth scout level. If you really want your spellcasting, you can take it after you get your fifth-level ranger spells (mystic ranger 10), or after your third favoured enemy (regular ranger 10, but dipping barbarian or druid for another is pretty nice).

This has been long debated and the difference is slight but I thought the consensus was that 3/17 > 4/16 - for Swift Hunter builds.

Also this is the same argument about a Ranger 1 dip, or Ranger 2 (for a feat)

The build we are looking at is
Scout 3 / Ranger 1 / Rogue 16
to
Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Rogue 14

[Troacctid]

That's a good point - but only one level and it does cost you a feat as well.
It's a feat and level well spent IMO. Ranger is a decent dip anyway. Plus there's the option of a druid dip instead, which is arguably even better.


This has been long debated and the difference is slight but I thought the consensus was that 3/17 > 4/16 - for Swift Hunter builds.
I didn't know there was a consensus, but I would assume it would be the opposite. Scout 4 seems like a better level than Ranger 17.

[elonin]

My advice depends on what you are hoping to accomplish. Take the bits you need from the classes that offer those features. For the combat part consider that two weapon fighting imposes at least a -2 penalty without considering the feat spent to get to that and rogue/scout levels have mediocre bab.

[Troacctid]

Aha! I found the build I was looking for. Link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18613497&postcount=50) It was the winner of Junkyard Wars VIII, and is actually my favorite Swift Ambusher build. It's also a kobold!

The build is Dark Desert Kobold Scout 3/Totemist 2/Rogue 14. It uses natural weapons to make 6–7 natural attacks on a charge (two claws and a bite from kobold, two more claws from the Lamia Belt soulmeld, a tail from the Dragon Tail feat, and optionally a gore attack if you can buy a horned helm), with all of them dealing full sneak attack and skirmish damage. Persistent Blade as a spell-like ability also allows for an additional attack each round.

Hide in plain sight and +8 to Hide from the Dark template, combined with a +8 size modifier to Hide, a +4–8 competence bonus from Lamia Belt, and max skill ranks, plus Darkstalker to hide even from blindsight, allow her to easily use stealth to enable sneak attacks, while charge attacks get skirmish damage automatically. The build also has a lot of skill points and can serve ably as scout, trapfinder, party face, and UMD user on top of being a strong damage-dealer. All around, I think it winds up being pretty nice.

[Chewychunga]

first off sorry for the horrible spelling, and thanks for the help anyways
all these are great suggestions
was wondering if there's any way to move after you charge? ie charge enemy move out of melee range and can you tumble or anything during a charge?
was hoping to exit melee range every round ( or most) then charge back in on start of my next

[Darrin]

first off sorry for the horrible spelling, and thanks for the help anyways
all these are great suggestions
was wondering if there's any way to move after you charge? ie charge enemy move out of melee range and can you tumble or anything during a charge?
was hoping to exit melee range every round ( or most) then charge back in on start of my next

This can be done with Travel Devotion (Complete Champion). When you activate it, for 1 minute you can move up to your speed as a swift action. So you can either charge then move away, or if you're already in melee range, back away from your target and then charge back in to melee.

Using the Cloistered Cleric dip to pick up Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and some other domain (such as Magic or War) is a favorite strategy for Swift Hunters. If you're looking for a deity, I like the dragon deity Io (Travel, Knowledge, Magic) or the Asgardian Pantheon (Travel, Knowledge, War).

[Willie the Duck]

no problem. As to charging then moving--not by standard rules without finding a way to get additional move actions. Moving, attacking, and moving again is the purview of spring attack, which doesn't give you a to-hit bonus and you get to move a lot less. You could get a belt of battle, in which case you could pull off this trick 3/day. I'm sure there are other items or spells that work too.

[nedz]

I didn't know there was a consensus, but I would assume it would be the opposite. Scout 4 seems like a better level than Ranger 17.

It's not the 17th level of Ranger you want - it's the 16 levels of getting Ranger class features earlier. But whatever - there isn't much to choose between them really.

[Troacctid]

It's not the 17th level of Ranger you want - it's the 16 levels of getting Ranger class features earlier. But whatever - there isn't much to choose between them really.
If you're currently a Scout 3/Ranger 16 deciding on which class to take for your 20th level, then it's only the 17th level of ranger that matters, isn't it?

[nedz]

If you're currently a Scout 3/Ranger 16 deciding on which class to take for your 20th level, then it's only the 17th level of ranger that matters, isn't it?

Er no - you missed the point.

[Troacctid]

There's no rule that says you have to take all 4 scout levels consecutively. If you don't want to delay ranger class features, then you can get the ranger class features you want, then eventually take scout 4 for the bonus feat. The only way for 3/17 to be the superior full 20-level build over 4/16 is if there is no point in your 20-level progression at which you would rather take scout 4 over a ranger level.

Of course there's room to debate exactly which order to take the levels in, but I can't even imagine a consensus existing for that.

[Metahuman1]

Instead of Two-Weapon Fighting, just use your natural attacks. Kobolds come with a built-in claw-claw-bite routine, and you can't use the claws if your hands are full, so why bother with weapons? Grab Multiattack, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and some form of pounce and you should be in business. Toss in the Dragon Tail feat, maybe, if you want to add a tail attack into the mix.

For your Draconic Rite of Passage, make sure you're not just picking a spell that you could use off a wand. You want one like Mage Armor, Ghostly Tail, Chill Touch, that sort of thing, where the caster level actually matters.

Pick up 1 level of Unarmed sword sage and a light weapon from the shadow hand discipline. (A Dagger, a short sword, ext.).

You now don't have full hands and can Claw/Claw/Bite (and tail if you have the feat.) and TWF with unarmed strike and the light weapon. And since there all light shadow hand weapons, if your in a shadow hand stance and have the feats feat, you can add Dex to your to hit and damage modifiers.



Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian is worth thinking about for a 1 level dip for Pounce. Combo's well with lot's of attacks and a 1 level dip in Cleric or Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion. Charge, full attack your target, and swift action to move away again.

If you add rogue and swift ambusher, Pick up Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk to up your AC and allow you to inflict extraordinary ability miss chance to enemy (that doubles for making them risk hitting there allies/themselves.) and enforce flat footed condition that makes the enemy easier to hit and pretty much always vulnerable to sneak attack. Even when using that combo above to fuel Skirmish.


Speaking of, there's a feat in Complete Scoundrel that let's you get double Skirmish bonus's for moving 20ft instead of 10ft. Get it.


If, IF, you can get he checks high enough in the relevant knowledge skills and are dipping cloistered cleric anyway, Knowledge devotion is worth a look and combo's REALLY well with lot's of attacks per round.

[Willie the Duck]

There's no rule that says you have to take all 4 scout levels consecutively. If you don't want to delay ranger class features, then you can get the ranger class features you want, then eventually take scout 4 for the bonus feat. The only way for 3/17 to be the superior full 20-level build over 4/16 is if there is no point in your 20-level progression at which you would rather take scout 4 over a ranger level.

Of course there's room to debate exactly which order to take the levels in, but I can't even imagine a consensus existing for that.

And if you are waiting until level 20 to decide, you definitely haven't benefited much from that 4th level Scout bonus feat.

[nedz]

Sigh,
After you have 3 levels of Scout you have the choice of taking another level of Scout, for the bonus feat, or taking levels of your other classes. If you take the Scout level you gain the feat, but forever after you are a level late in advancing the rest of your progression.

So the calculation is Scout Bonus feat versus the Delayed progression over many levels of every thing else.

It's also worth noting that the selection available from the Scout Bonus feat ain't all that great anyway.

[Chewychunga]

So it seems like scout 3or4 ranger 16/17 lion barb1 is best? Or devoted cleric 1
What feats would ya suggest I take?
I'm using 2 light weapons not natural
So twf? Improved? Knowladge devotion? Is confound the big folk good? Or it once per encounter ?

[Ethernil]

Generally going above ranger 15 has diminishing returns, hide in plain sight ONLY IN NATURAL TERRAIN isn't so great, especially at the level you get it. You picked kobold as a race for the draconic right of passage i suppose since you 're not in for the natural attacks? Generally if you just want a small race both Whisper gnome from the book Races of Stone and Strongheart Halfling if you are playing in the forgotten realms campaign setting are much stronger candidates for the build.

The build can even work as ranger 15 scout 5.

I believe delaying the build for a dip in barbarian isn't worth it, since you can't always charge to trigger the pounce effect.

A level of cleric, normal or cloistered offers many benefits: turn undead attempts to burn for extra uses of devotion feats from the Complete Champion book, 2 domains(3 if cloistered) that give a base bonus that can be extra turning, exotic weapon proficiency or some other feat and at least 1 spell each. It let's you use cleric spell wands without use magic device rolls and if you pick a god with the magic domain you can also use arcane spell wands without UMD. The main draw is travel devotion which you can pick up for free (you can exchange a domain you would normally get, in this ocasion the travel domain, and get the coresponding devotion feat) which let's you move and full attack for 10 rounds per use, no need for barbarian pounce.

You want to get at least 3 levels of scout early so that you can actually pick up the swift hunter feat by level 6, getting the first 6 levels of ranger also boosts your power thx to bonus feats.

Rogue tends to work better as a daring outlaw, the iconic build being rogue 4 swashbuckler 16, or with a dip in wizard or sorcerer and prestige classes that advance skill monkeyness and spellcasting so don't bother with it.

As for feats for the swift hunter: you obviously want the swift hunter feat :smalltongue:, then since you seem to want to play melee:
1)You get the two weapon fighting tree for free thx to ranger so you will be using short swords probably, or kukris if you are interested in a crit oriented build.
2)Weapon Finesse, to reduce multiple atribute dependance, let me elaborate: you need constitution since you will be fighting melee, you need inteligence as a skill monkey for skill points, you need 14 wisdom(not at first level though) to cast your ranger spells and dexterity for armor since you will be wearing bdsm, sry i meant light armor. Now your damage relies mostly on skirmish so just dump strength to 10 and pick weapon finesse, maybe even with your first level feat.
3)Sword of the arcane order, from champions of valor allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells in your ranger spell slots (you can get tasty stuff like fly and polymorph)
4)Practiced spellcaster, as a ranger your caster level is half your ranger level, this boosts your caster level by 4
5)If you still have leftover feats you can never go wrong with improved initiative
***Forgot improved skirmish, greatly boosts your skirmish if you move 20 instead of 10 feet, not a problem with this build.

One thing that will greatly improve a swift hunter is alternative class features, especially for the ranger, they let you swap certain class features for some other. Here are some useful ones:
1)Shooting Star(ranger), from champions of valor at levels 4 and 8, you lose your animal companion and fast tracking but get more spells per day. The ranger animal companion sucks even when not multiclassed so it 's a win - win.
2)Arcane hunter, from complete mage, changes your first ranger level favored enemy into arcane casters, yes anything that casts arcane spells or evocations including liches, dragons and pokemon, not entirely sure about the last one.
3)Trap expert, dungeonscape book, exchange your track ability for the ability to search and disable traps with your ranger levels.
4)Since you get evasion from both classes exchange one of them for either spell reflection(complete mage book) or feign death(exemplars of evil book)

[Chewychunga]

Wow thanks Ethernil
I'm wanting a melee only skill monkey so would that does sneak or skirmish damage and don't care about spells
Was only thinking the swift ambushed cause I thought I could max scout and get sneak but read that wrong
Some of the things I'm wanting to do are hit and run (cleric I'm guessing now ) TWF skirmish/ sneak damage and skills
So with that what you suggest? Spell less ranger maybe? Or?

[Ethernil]

If you want to be spelles, get the ranger acf that gives bonus feats, complete champion book if i m not mistaken. The build changes to this: scout 4, ranger 6 and either 10 levels of dervish or dervish 7, tempest 3. You can move and full attack triggering skirmish damage by using dervish dance. You will be dual wielding scimitars. If you go the tempest route then get either human or strongheart halfling for your race as you will be needing extra feats badly. This build is much weaker than the swift hunter mainly thanks to no spell casting.

[Cerefel]

There are actually 2 Ranger ACFs that trade out spellcasting. There's the one in CC that lets you choose from a limited list of bonus feats, and there's the one in CW that gives you faster land speed and some SLAs. Neither is really all that good, and ranger has some good all-day buffs, so if you don't want to do a whole lot of casting through your adventuring day you could just cast a few of those in the morning and be on your way.