Saving throw for Create Pit.

[Barstro]

As part of my PC's crowd control, I am considering the following;

Round 1) Silent Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silent-image) to create a floor/ground that looks exactly like what is already there
Round 2) Create Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit) under the image.

My understanding is that Silent Image's duration of "concentration" is not interrupted by Create Pit because Create Pit does not require concentration to cast. If that is incorrect, please cite the RAW.

Create Pit lists saving throws for falling in a pit that is cast directly under someone (Reflex), and being in an adjacent square at the end of movement (Reflex with +2 bonus)

What are the saving throws for walking or running over the pit or the sides? I think the possibilities are as follows;
1) No saves, you walked right into a pit.
2) Will save for Silent Image when hitting an adjacent square. If fail, reflex (+2) to change movement.
3) Just a reflex save, no bonus, for hitting an adjacent square because you thought the ground was flat.

[legomaster00156]

You need to reverse the order you cast the spells in.


Concentration

The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.

You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Some spells last for a short time after you cease concentrating.

[nyjastul69]

As part of my PC's crowd control, I am considering the following;

Round 1) Silent Image (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/silent-image) to create a floor/ground that looks exactly like what is already there
Round 2) Create Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit) under the image.

My understanding is that Silent Image's duration of "concentration" is not interrupted by Create Pit because Create Pit does not require concentration to cast. If that is incorrect, please cite the RAW.

Create Pit lists saving throws for falling in a pit that is cast directly under someone (Reflex), and being in an adjacent square at the end of movement (Reflex with +2 bonus)

What are the saving throws for walking or running over the pit or the sides? I think the possibilities are as follows;
1) No saves, you walked right into a pit.
2) Will save for Silent Image when hitting an adjacent square. If fail, reflex (+2) to change movement.
3) Just a reflex save, no bonus, for hitting an adjacent square because you thought the ground was flat.



Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the spell to end.

You can’t cast a spell while concentrating on another one. Sometimes a spell lasts for a short time after you cease concentrating.

As the last line indicates, you cannot cast a spell while concentrating on another spell.

Edit: And ninja'd.

Edit 2: Sorry, I missed the PF tag. I quoted the 3.5 SRD. I don't know how similar PF is in this regard.

[Telonius]

You could pull off something like that, but you'd need an item that casts Create Pit and the Swift Concentration skill trick.

[Serafina]

You could pull off something like that, but you'd need an item that casts Create Pit and the Swift Concentration skill trick.Again, Pathfinder.

It's a doable trick. The most obvious way is to have two casters cooperate - one to cast and maintain the Illusion, another to create the Pit. Or just create the pit first, then cover it with an illusion.
If you actually want do go Illusion->Pit first and do it as a single character, it's possible as a Veiled Illusionist (http://archivesofnethys.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Veiled%20Illu sionist). At 6th level they can concentrate on a Glamer or Figment (which Silent Image is).
Alternatively, you can go with an Illusion that does not require concentration, such as Persistent Image (http://archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Persistent%20Image).

[Barstro]

Hmm. Everyone here seems to know how concentration works. I wonder why the only threads I found before had people as unable to find basic information on the SRD as me. :smallconfused:

I cannot really change the spell order, since then the enemies will see the pit.

So, it appears that I can keep the order if I can quicken the pit. Kind of a waste.

Ok, thanks, everyone.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

On the original question: If I were the GM I'd give them a reflex save. Everything in 3.x gets a save. It also seems like exactly the sort of situation the rogue and the barbarian get trap sense for. There's suddenly a hole in the floor you didn't see coming, you can avoid it by reacting quickly enough.

[Barstro]

I'd still like some input on saving throws.

How about my PC casts pit, and his familiar uses a wand of Silent Image?

Sadly, that cannot be done for a few more levels (and if I were the DM, the familiar would become a fair target for enemies).

[Zanos]

I'd still like some input on saving throws.
As per the text of create pit, creatures only get a reflex save if they're standing in the area when the pit is created. If they walk into it after that, no save.

[Barstro]

As per the text of create pit, creatures only get a reflex save if they're standing in the area when the pit is created. If they walk into it after that, no save.

Sure, but I think they SHOULD get a save to notice that the adjacent squares are inexplicably sloped towards the pit and cease said movement into the pit. Data point of one, but I'd try to stop moving towards someone if the level-appearing ground felt slanted underfoot.

It's the difference of "knowing" the adjacent squares are sloped and being smart enough to not end a turn in said square, vs not knowing the ground is sloped upon the first step.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My advice is if they step into the sloped area they immediately make the saving throw as if they'd ended their turn adjacent to the pit as you described in option 3.

[Psyren]

Your problem is that you're going too cheap. You'd need an illusion that doesn't require concentration to maintain - then you can cast them in the order you wish.

Alternatively, reach back to 3.5 for Invisible Spell (including a lesser rod of same) and simply have the pit not be visible once created.

[Barstro]

Your problem is that you're going too cheap. You'd need an illusion that doesn't require concentration to maintain - then you can cast them in the order you wish.

Agreed, but I believe I have better things to do with that sort of spell level. My thought here was to come up with something useful for low level spells.

[ATalsen]

Sure, but I think they SHOULD get a save to notice that the adjacent squares are inexplicably sloped towards the pit and cease said movement into the pit.

There is a save; Silent Image is Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with).
Therefor, when an opponent moves up adjacent to the Pit (where you have placed the Silent Image to disguise the sloping sides), they interact with the illusion and they get an immediate will save from that interaction with the illusion.

If they make the save, they see thru the illusion and see the pit and can adjust any further movement they take that round. If they happen to stop at an edge, then Reflex save, as per the pit description.

If they fail the save, they don't 'figure out' the illusion and may just walk into the pit directly, which it has been pointed out allows no save.

Really all you do is apply the effects as they are written to determine what happens.

[Diarmuid]

Would another issue of targeting the Create Pit "under" the illusion be that you dont have "line of sight" to the point of origin?

[Zanos]

Would another issue of targeting the Create Pit "under" the illusion be that you dont have "line of sight" to the point of origin?
I believe casters disbelieve their own illusions, and therefore can see through it. Might need to fact check me on that, though.

[Psyren]

You have clear proof that your illusions aren't real (because you cast them.) Therefore you can disbelieve any of your illusions you want, and they no longer break line of sight.

[Skysaber]

On the original question: If I were the GM I'd give them a reflex save. Everything in 3.x gets a save. It also seems like exactly the sort of situation the rogue and the barbarian get trap sense for. There's suddenly a hole in the floor you didn't see coming, you can avoid it by reacting quickly enough.

Not so. Not everything gets a save. Of particular note, look up the Gelatinous Cube. The situation is very similar.

If you see it, you can try to dodge it attempts to engulf you, and get the normal reflex save. But, if people do not see the gelatinous cube and move into its area, they get engulfed automatically - with no save.

It strikes me that he is trying to achieve the same thing here, and I say let him - On the first person to fall in, anyway. Seeing the guy before you fall into a supposedly solid floor ought to warn the rest.

The Create Pit already offers a Ref save, which he is going through an awful lot of complexity to remove, but it only does 3d6 at max level, and offering that save to his targets removes the whole point of adding the illusion. So for RP purposes, he should absolutely be offered a bonus to the spells effectiveness for having gone through all of that effort. There still exist plenty of things that can mitigate falling damage, so it's not like a no-save 3d6 to a single target is going to overpower the game.

On the other hand, I've told my group that anything legal for them as players is also for me, the DM, to use. So if they did that they could expect to run into some no-save pits and other traps in their future.

[Barstro]

It strikes me that he is trying to achieve the same thing here, and I say let him - On the first person to fall in, anyway. Seeing the guy before you fall into a supposedly solid floor ought to warn the rest.
As would seeing the pit get formed an then an illusion placed over it. Thus the need for a particular order that, sadly, does not seem possible.



The Create Pit already offers a Ref save, which he is going through an awful lot of complexity to remove, but it only does 3d6 at max level, and offering that save to his targets removes the whole point of adding the illusion. So for RP purposes, he should absolutely be offered a bonus to the spells effectiveness for having gone through all of that effort. There still exist plenty of things that can mitigate falling damage, so it's not like a no-save 3d6 to a single target is going to overpower the game.
The damage is hardly the point. Pits can basically remove people from fights so that the rest of my party can end things in a more orderly fashion.

My thought with the illusion is that it would have squares adjacent to the pit have an effect similar to Stumble Gap, since the enemies cannot really interact with the illusion until after they have already been potentially thrown off balance by the change in terrain.