Pure Paladin Build

[WereRabbitz]

I have a level 5 ancients paladin i'm building and instead of doing point buy in we rolled for our stats so I have the below generous stats to use.
We also are a party of 3 that started out at 5 so were down to a Paladin/Sorc/Cleric.

I'm a Nature oriented paladin who loves to play his flute & believes everyone gets a second chance. I am often grappling mobs and taking prisoners back instead of just heads!

str: 18
dex: 11
Con 17
int:10
wis:13
Cha 17

AC 20 (Ring of +1ac & Splint 18 +1) (Shield of Faith + Shield make my AC Ridiculous and I basically use LUCKY! to negate the DM's natural 20's to allow more consistent damage over spike damage)
Current Weapons: Halberd, Longsword + Shield, Crossbow

Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
Feat: Lucky!
Race: Half-Elf
Background: Entertainer

My questions involves on the path I take from here forward?

For my next ASI's Im thinking

level 8 (Get +1 to Con & Cha to make them 18)

Level 12 (Shortly after getting Imp Smite pick up Polearm Mastery for even more Smite damage)

Level 16 & 19 i'm unsure...

1. Would you change my current plans for feats and what suggestions do you have for 16 & 19
some ideas i threw around...
Sentinel - Goes well with Polearm
CHA > 20 = helps with spells + Saves + Checks +....
Magic Initiate = Pick up EBlast for some ranged combat since it's level based i could have 3 or 4 blast per round.


2. I am also just hitting level 5 and seeing the spells at level 2 and beyond getting the Mount i'm a little disappointed to be honest. Aid is nice, but the cleric has that covered are there any hidden GEMS in level 2 spells?


3. Am I using the class right?
Normally I wade in with my halberd and superb AC to fight common baddies and if we get up to a boss or (like a room of 6 bugbears) I switch to sword and board and toss up Shield of Faith keeping myself between my comrades and the uglies as best I can. Normally using my spells for Shields or Smites to finish off tough creatures quickly and using my LoH to heal fallen comrades.

At any given time I carry Healing Kits & Health potions for quick revives saving my LoH for big heals.

I do see that I haven't been using Bless a lot and will start using it a whole lot more since at level 1 it can hit our whole group of 3 people!

I feel the mount has potential to help me in combat maybe even knock people prone. I was actually thinking of asking the DM if I could have a pet instead of a mount.


Currently i'm tore between picking up bard or staying pure to Paladin I have to level up my character to 5 before Friday so i don't have much time to pick.

Thanks for any advice roleplaying or min/maxing you can provide and taking the time to read my post!

[Biggstick]

Is there a reason you're using a Breastplate when you have the Str to be utilizing Plate?

18 (Plate) + 1 (Ring) + 1 (Defense) = 20 AC with a 2her.
18 (Plate) + 1 (Ring) + 1 (Defense) + 2 (Shield) = 22 AC with SnB

The only disadvantages I see is weight of the armor and disadvantage on stealth checks. You're probably not going to be extremely stealthy as it is though, so not really sure why that might be a problem. I'm also curious as to why you're using GWF instead of the Defense fighting style since you seem to swap between SnB and 2her's.

A solid combination of feats include Polearm Master and Sentinel. What's great about it is you can use the 2h Polearm for trash mobs, and then swap to a Quarterstaff for your SnB moments. You'll still be able to utilize all the bonuses of the feat for the sacrifice of 1 average damage per swing (although you gain a consistent bonus attack, so it evens itself out).

[WereRabbitz]

Is there a reason you're using a Breastplate when you have the Str to be utilizing Plate? ....



Sorry it was +1 Splintmail and a +1 Ring of Protect.

So yeah sitting at 20AC without spells holding a 2hander.

We originally had a Cleric, Sorc, Rogue, and Fighter in our group so My original plan was to do the whole polearm style of fighting so I picked up Great Weapon Fighting for a little extra damage since the Battle Fighter was going to be a SnB guy and picked up Protection.

Well the Rogue and Fighter have lives that have gotten busy and have not showed up a few sessions so i'm now the Main Tank and the only Melee.

I try to optimize by using a 2h on lower level mobs to quickly cut through them making use of my Fighting Style and Bigger/trickier fights i switch to SNB and cast Shield of Faith to allow my 24armor + Lucky to absorb a lot of punishment.


What do you mean about using the Quarterstaff?

[Biggstick]

Polearm Master allows you to use Quarterstaffs and still receive the benefits of the feat. A quarterstaff can also qualify as a 1 handed weapon, even though it's damage die drops to a d6. Using a Quarterstaff/Shield might feel a little awkward thematically, but it works great mechanically. The opportunity attacks you make with Polearm Master (from an enemy stepping into your range of attack, which is 5' with a Quarterstaff) + Sentinel allows you to help in slowing creatures down as they try to get past you towards your allies.

It also might serve a bit more thematically, as it sounds like your character is more about taking prisoners then killing, making a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage more appealing for RP purposes.

[Specter]

If you have the Great Weapon Fighting style, you shouldn't be using a shield. Go out there and murder everybody with a halberd.

Paladins lack a good reaction use, so Polearm Master and Sentinel help you do just that. And don't forget to use Ensnaring Strike whenever you can to restrain people.

[Corran]

Assuming retrain is not possible or not desirable, I would do the following regarding ASIs/feats.
At 8th level I would get +1 con, +1 cha for the increase in hp (makes a lot of sense especially since you are the main tank, for better concentration checks again for the same reason, and for better bonus to saves for you and your allies, given that you will have aura of protection by then), and at 12th level I would get polearm master so that I can play better with improved divine smite. So I would do pretty much what you already suggested.

For the two remaining ASIs/ feats, at levels 16 and 19, I would do the following:
I would take warcaster and either spell sniper or magic initiate (quick question, did you by any chance pick the variant halfelf that gets a cantrip?). It is true that sentinel is a fantastic feat, that plays really well for PMasters, and even better if they are paladins PMasters. But you wont make good use of it, since you dont have a devoted melee buddy (would work great if your S&B fighter was around, and it would combo nice with his protection style. And as fas as keeping enemies near you, you only have one reaction, so you want be able to stop them all from going after your allies at all times. But why warcaster and spell sniper/magic initiate?

To get BB and use it with an OA. That deals a lot of damage (d10+8d8+str mod) to whomever chooses to turn his back on you and chase your allies and you can do it against enemies when they enter your reach too, if you pick spell sniper over magic initiate. If you pick magic initiate over spell sniper, you can instead get a second cantrip (EB for a very decent range attack, and one 1st level spell usable 1/day without expending spell slots). The advantage on concentration checks is usualy necessary as well, but with your stats and a con save at +8 eventually, it is just a nice addition.

It is not the greatest trick, but once you get to 16 level, you cannot avoid planning for level 20, and below you will find the real reason as to why I suggest you to pick this combination of feats from level 16 and onwards. Just give me a minute to find the post and copy paste:smallsmile:

''First round of combat: Use your action to activate elder champion (capstone of oath of ancients), move up to your enemy, use your bonus action to cast command on the enemy, the enemy rolls the save with disadvantage. Command the enemy to flee. If the enemy fails his save, we use BB as an opportunity attack, dealing [weapon die]+ str mod + d8 (IDS) + 7d8 (BB) + whatever other adds to our damage (from spells to magic items). So we inflict all that damage with just our reaction, and the enemy even loses his turn. All at the cost of a 1st level spell slot, and a bonus action. Meaning that we can continue doing that in the following rounds (as long as we have spell slots to use for command), and on top we can use whatever we want with our action (save for casting spells, as we use ourr bonus action to cast a spell). And the enemy rolls with disadvnatage his save. How awesome is that?!!! Even against enemies with legendary resistances, that means that we can very quickly burn through those resistances (due to disadvnatage on saves, meaning that they should fail more often that succeeding), and we can burn through the legendary resistances at the cost of 1st level slots and a bonus action, meaning that we are still attacking with our action.''

[Arkhios]

If you have the Great Weapon Fighting style, you shouldn't be using a shield. Go out there and murder everybody with a halberd.

Paladins lack a good reaction use, so Polearm Master and Sentinel help you do just that. And don't forget to use Ensnaring Strike whenever you can to restrain people.

Not quite true. Protection style grants a very good reactional ability early on. Although it's situational and requires a shield.
I'd correct that statement to that "Paladins lack other good options to react with." :)

As a side note:
I've got an ancients paladin inspired by celtic druidism and vikings on a clash-course.
For him I used the following build...

Variant human (dual wielder)
2nd level (protection style)
4th level (tavern brawler)
8th level forward (whatever rocks your boat; I plan to take War Caster because my hands are tied to SnB likely at least 90% of the time, and many spells need a hand free otherwise; after War Caster it depends on various things, such as which magic items come our way, but likely going to improve ability scores.)

This is of course slightly subject to DM discretion, because I utilize my shield as an improvised off-hand weapon (the concept goes live already at 1st level, improves at 4th level due to proficiency in attack rolls with the shield) but I believe many DM's (such as mine) allows Dual Wielder apply the AC bonus on top of that from using a shield as normal, and as a weapon (total +3 with Dual Wielder, so that my AC is 19 with Chainmail, Shield, and Dual-Wielder as long as I have a weapon in the other hand).
At 11th level the concept intensifies due to IDS applying all attacks, including two-weapon fighting (with a shield in my case).
My role in our party is that of the defender, but I also lean towards a capable DPR, despite being a SnB Paladin. However, because I use a shield, I'm always ready to react with protection style.

[djreynolds]

You are an entertainer, why not actor?

Resilient con, very nice.

You would be surprised how much damage out there, even at high levels, is from mundane sources and not magical and heavy armor master could be nice

War caster is very good

Mage slayer, even monsters cast magic

And lucky which you have

[WereRabbitz]

I fully expected to have another melee working with me and that person to be the Sword & Board fighter of the group.

The Tanking job got dropped in my lap so I'm carrying Ranged, Reach, and SNB weapons around so I can roll with the punches best I can.

I was tempted to Multiclass into Bard or Warlock (My character loves playing music and has had a run in with a couple fey's creatures that ended peacefully) so both are good story line arcs to work in or Fighter because i've been 80% melee these last few sessions.

I like the idea of going Polearm's (although I might switch to greatsword until I hit level 12 and pick up Polearm Mastery), and Bard/Lock would give me some Ranged and better spell power so they are both very tempting.


I toyed around with doing the following:
Paladin 12 Ancients
Fighter 8 EB Knight


So battle would be like this:
> 10ft away? - EBlast them as needed 4d10dmg

As they move within 10ft of me - OA on them as they enter my range of combat with a Halberd + Improved Divine Smite 1d10+Str + 1d8 dmg

10ft or Closer? - Start each round with EBlast (4d10) followed by Halberd attack (1d10+4/5) + Imp Divine Smite (1d8) with option of throwing a regular Smite on top.



Pros:
Fighter Abilities > Second Wind, Action Surge, Bonus ASI, Fighting Style

Cons:
Fighter dmg spells won't land very well have to get creative or use spell slots for smites.

[Biggstick]

I toyed around with doing the following:
Paladin 12 Ancients
Fighter 8 EB Knight


So battle would be like this:
> 10ft away? - EBlast them as needed 4d10dmg

As they move within 10ft of me - OA on them as they enter my range of combat with a Halberd + Improved Divine Smite 1d10+Str + 1d8 dmg

10ft or Closer? - Start each round with EBlast (4d10) followed by Halberd attack (1d10+4/5) + Imp Divine Smite (1d8) with option of throwing a regular Smite on top.



Pros:
Fighter Abilities > Second Wind, Action Surge, Bonus ASI, Fighting Style

Cons:
Fighter dmg spells won't land very well have to get creative or use spell slots for smites.

The rest of your post was clear, but this is pretty difficult to decipher. Since I'm not sure if you're talking about 8 levels of Fighter or 8 levels of Warlock, I'll give an opinion on both.

Eight levels of Fighter won't be doing much for you. Sure you'll have access to some pretty nice martial capabilities (as well as the Shield spell), an extra ASI, and a tiny bit of spell progression, but you're going to get more out of Multiclassing with either Bard, Warlock, or Sorcerer.

If for some reason you did decide to go the Paladin/EK Fighter route though and go that deep, you'd be better rewarded by utilizing GFB or BB with your cantrip compared to Eldritch Blast (Speaking of which, to get Eldritch Blast you'd have to pick it up through the use of a feat as it's not on the Wizard spell list).

[WereRabbitz]

Sorry to be unclear. I was wondering if you did something like.
Paladin 11 for improved Smite
Eldritch Fighter 7 for the War magic ability
Warlock 2 for the eldritch Blast and agonizing blast

So every turn you could cast EBlast 4d10+CHA and follow it up with a bonus melee attack that does a bonus 1d8 imp smite DMG as well as having the option to cast smite.

What do the bb and gbd abbreviations stand for?

[Biggstick]

Sorry to be unclear. I was wondering if you did something like.
Paladin 11 for improved Smite
Eldritch Fighter 7 for the War magic ability
Warlock 2 for the eldritch Blast and agonizing blast

So every turn you could cast EBlast 4d10+CHA and follow it up with a bonus melee attack that does a bonus 1d8 imp smite DMG as well as having the option to cast smite.

What do the bb and gbd abbreviations stand for?

BB = Booming Blade
GFB = Greenflame Blade

Both are cantrips that involve a melee attack. They are cantrips that come from the Sword Coast Adventure Guide (SCAG). Going that deep into Fighter when you're already that deep into Paladin seems like a waste to me. For that Cantrip/Attack combo, you're giving up Paladin 12-18. That includes access to level 4 and 5 spells (Death Ward, Banishment, Destructive Wave, plus whatever else your Oath base spells are). To me, it doesn't seem like it's worth it.

[Arkhios]

Sorry to be unclear. I was wondering if you did something like.
Paladin 11 for improved Smite
Eldritch Fighter 7 for the War magic ability
Warlock 2 for the eldritch Blast and agonizing blast

So every turn you could cast EBlast 4d10+CHA and follow it up with a bonus melee attack that does a bonus 1d8 imp smite DMG as well as having the option to cast smite.

What do the bb and gbd abbreviations stand for?

Edit: I got shadowmonk'd D:

New cantrips from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide for all arcane classes (except bard)
BB = Booming Blade
GFB = Green-Flame Blade

Basically you use your action to cast a cantrip and they allow you to make an attack with a melee weapon to deliver the spell effects in addition to your weapon damage (if you hit).

I would consider twice taking Eldritch Knight levels up to an amount that doesn't divide by three. You see, any less or more limits your effective spellcasting level even further.
Good dip would include 3 levels (to get at least +1 to effective caster level)
Better dip would be 6 levels (to get +2 to effective caster level, and 2 x ASI). If you really want EK, I would suggest paladin12/EK6/Warlock2. That way you would at least get a total of 5 ASI's and your effective caster level would be 8 (6 from paladin, 2 from EK). This does mean, however, that you would be worse caster than a full paladin would. And as Biggstick pointed out you'll lose a plenty of great paladin end game features.

With your build you would get a total of 4 ASI. If you think War Magic is worth one ASI and the loss of 4th and even 5th paladin spells, then go ahead.

(I'd advise reading through a few spells, such as Aura of Vitality, Aura of Purity, and Circle of Power)

PS. How is this build a Pure Paladin Build anymore? ;)

[djreynolds]

The only thing a paladin lacks is normally a ranged attack, easily fixed by selecting magic initiate and taking some sorcerer spells.

You lack the shield spell, oh well, magic initiate could give you the shield spell once a long rest.

That's it. Otherwise paladins are awesome. Good saves, good damage output, good AC with full plate, great spells that are prepared and there is a good selection of them.

PAM is really good to take advantage of improved divine smite. Lay on hands is so good its silly.

The problem is 5E is let your other teammates shine, set them up for success. The game will be more fun if others in the party shine as well.

[WereRabbitz]

So i deserve a serious kick in the head for not paying better attention to Paladin 5e Spells.

The EBKnight/Paladin/warlock combos is terrible... really putting all my eggs behind 1 combo and limiting myself terribly.

Looks like it's Pure Paladin build and I might Pick up Magic Init to get a couple cantrips and extra spell.

Right now at level 5 I'm swinging a Greatsword for 2d6+4 X 2 and with Bless/Divine Favor/Shield of Faith i'm very flexible. (Aid is covered by cleric thxs goodness! )

Thanks everyone for the sage advice and patience with my questions!

I do have one follow up question.. The only thing Paladin's seem to be lacking is a Reaction is there any you would suggest?

I'm picking up polearms again at level 12 once i get Polearm mastery and improved smite so between spells and the polearm i will always have something to do on my bonus action each turn.

As far as reactions is there a low level spell or feat I could pick up? I will have the Polearm mastery for when someone moves into my range so that does help.


Thanks!

[Arkhios]

So i deserve a serious kick in the head for not paying better attention to Paladin 5e Spells.

The EBKnight/Paladin/warlock combos is terrible... really putting all my eggs behind 1 combo and limiting myself terribly.

Looks like it's Pure Paladin build and I might Pick up Magic Init to get a couple cantrips and extra spell.

Right now at level 5 I'm swinging a Greatsword for 2d6+4 X 2 and with Bless/Divine Favor/Shield of Faith i'm very flexible. (Aid is covered by cleric thxs goodness! )

Thanks everyone for the sage advice and patience with my questions!

I do have one follow up question.. The only thing Paladin's seem to be lacking is a Reaction is there any you would suggest?

I'm picking up polearms again at level 12 once i get Polearm mastery and improved smite so between spells and the polearm i will always have something to do on my bonus action each turn.

As far as reactions is there a low level spell or feat I could pick up? I will have the Polearm mastery for when someone moves into my range so that does help.


Thanks!

As a precaution since so many new players misunderstand the feat:
Before you jump into further conclusions, the spell you gain from Magic Initiate is always at 1st level, meaning you can't use your spell slots to cast the spell from a higher slot. However, the one casting of that spell doesn't count against your normal amount of spell slots for that day so you don't lose anything from taking it either.

As a reaction, well, since you're using two-handed weapons and plan to take Polearm Master feat, take the Sentinel feat too. It lets you use your reaction to attack when someone enters your reach.

[WereRabbitz]

As a precaution since so many new players misunderstand the feat:
Before you jump into further conclusions, the spell you gain from Magic Initiate is always at 1st level, meaning you can't use your spell slots to cast the spell from a higher slot. However, the one casting of that spell doesn't count against your normal amount of spell slots for that day so you don't lose anything from taking it either.

As a reaction, well, since you're using two-handed weapons and plan to take Polearm Master feat, take the Sentinel feat too. It lets you use your reaction to attack when someone enters your reach.

Yeah i was thinking of grabbing something that doesn't scale and doesn't require concentration.

So far Shield & Feather Fall leap to mind as examples. No concentration required and no benefit to using a higher level slot.


Thanks!