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AMFV
2016-07-13, 09:24 PM
Howdy all!

I'm currently working on a setting where I have evil Gods based on the seven deadly sins (super original, I know). I have been assigning each sin to a characteristic monster as well, (Wrath for Orcs, Lust for Drow/Dark Elves etc.) It's come down to where the only sin I have left without a characteristic monster is Envy. So I was wondering if you folks could potentially assist me with brainstorming some options, it's kind of a D&Desque thing at the minute, so something along those lines could work, although I'm certainly not excluding monsters from other sorts of settings.

So far the equivalent monsters are:

Pride - Dragons
Wrath - Orcs
Gluttony - Trolls
Lust - Dark Elves
Greed - Goblins
Sloth - Undead (Makes sense since in certain definitions sloth is also related deeply to despair and an unwillingness to do good).

Anyways, any help with this would be much appreciated.

Vitruviansquid
2016-07-13, 10:12 PM
Changelings?

redwizard007
2016-07-13, 10:18 PM
Gnolls or Ogres could both fill that niche.

You could also use driders. The tie-in to Drow could make this interesting.

Even giants, probably reskinned, could do well.

Sloth is the one that would have stumped me. Undead was a nice choice.

awa
2016-07-13, 11:26 PM
gonna say doppelganger it wants what you have so it kills you and takes your place

Bohandas
2016-07-13, 11:31 PM
Possible envious monsters

Vampires - Hunger for blood can be construed as a metaphor for the desire for true life, which is the one thing they cannot possess. Has the problem that you've already assigned the undead to sloth.

Genies - According to Islam the devil started out as a Jinn who was jealous of the favor given to humanity by God

Mermaids - Hear me out here. In the original pre-bowlderization story of The Little Mermaid mermaids didn't have souls and the reason why the protagonist wanted to marry the prince was to gain a part of his soul

Bohandas
2016-07-13, 11:46 PM
Sloth - Undead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhmv40SBzS4#t=01m09s

Firest Kathon
2016-07-14, 03:20 AM
For inspiration: In the Pathfinder setting of Golarion there used to be rune magic (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Rune_magic), where each of the deadly sins virtues was assigned to a school of magic. The masters of each school were the runelords (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Runelords), and it is the background for the Rise of the Runelords adventure path.

Pugwampy
2016-07-14, 04:55 AM
Ormyrs <jabba the hut monsters> . They lust after magical weapons although they are technically not evil .

I think they are in monster manual II ?

hymer
2016-07-14, 05:36 AM
Some thoughts:
I think shapeshifters and lycanthropes as mentioned are good ideas.
Another thought could be mind-flayers. It wouldn't take much refluffing to have their desire for brains be of the envious kind.
Envy also isn't just wanting something others have, it's also not wanting others to have what they have; which gives a willingness to ruin something so others won't get it (very vampire-like behaviour, wanting the blood of the living, and subjecting them to control and destruction, etc.; although you already have undead as a category). You could easily fold a destructive humanoid people, say gnolls, into that. Gnolls are raiders, taking from others, destroying what they can't bring along.

Jay R
2016-07-14, 06:24 AM
Humans.

Specifically, D&D players who complain when somebody else in the party gets something cool.

Calinar
2016-07-14, 06:56 AM
Kobolds haven't been mentioned yet and I could see envy working out for them. Supposed "scions of dragons" that believe the world belongs to them by virtue of their blood but have been unable to unify their disparate clans enough to any real damage. Mostly because the smaller clans often work to bring down the larger, more powerful clans that are constantly bickering amongst themselves over who is the preeminent clan.

Stan
2016-07-14, 07:20 AM
Kobolds haven't been mentioned yet and I could see envy working out for them. Supposed "scions of dragons" that believe the world belongs to them by virtue of their blood but have been unable to unify their disparate clans enough to any real damage. Mostly because the smaller clans often work to bring down the larger, more powerful clans that are constantly bickering amongst themselves over who is the preeminent clan.

I was going to mention kobolds as well. If anyone feels jealous because they are on the bottom, it's kobolds. They get no respect. Yet, give them leaders with character levels, numbers, and situations that make use of their small size, and they could be a serious threat.

Daedroth
2016-07-14, 07:27 AM
Humans.

Specifically, D&D players who complain when somebody else in the party gets something cool.


Ohhh...thats brilliant! I like it!

CharonsHelper
2016-07-14, 08:43 AM
I'm not sure which system you're going with, but if you're playing Pathfinder you could go with the dark folk. The fact that they're all about stealth fits Envy, because they're always watching others go about their lives in the light.


Dark creepers lurk in the black places deep below the surface of the world, venturing forth at night or into neighboring societies when the urge to steal and cause mayhem grows too great to resist.

That certainly sounds like their envy keeps growing until they need to lash out.


Dark slayers are relatively rare sub-race of the dark folk imbued with malign energies that grant them a suite of deadly spell-like abilities beyond those normally accessible to their kin. They are usually encountered leading small bands of dark creepers, and seethe with barely concealed envy of the dark stalkers, ever scheming to displace them and claim a dark folk tribe of their own.

goto124
2016-07-14, 09:26 AM
Kender, if you allow any number of them into your campaign...

Quertus
2016-07-14, 10:07 AM
Humans.

Specifically, D&D players who complain when somebody else in the party gets something cool.

I once ran a campaign with an epic "Order vs Chaos" backdrop. The party enjoyed the role reversal when they hit the reveal, about 15 sessions in, that their goals placed them firmly on the side of chaos.

I admit, when I first saw the thread, I didn't think any deeper than "who wants what you have, and will kill you to take it?", and said, "Doppelganger". Of course, that pretty well describes adventurers, too.

2D8HP
2016-07-14, 11:43 AM
Pride - Dragons
Wrath - Orcs
Gluttony - Trolls
Lust - Dark Elves
Greed - Goblins
Sloth - Undead
Humans mirror image, the Hobgoblin's.
Their desire for conquest may be thought of as envy of those lands.
Also with their treasure hoards I would have Dragons represent greed (I think a "Cliff's Notes" on Beowulf said the same).
Orcs would be Lust (half-orcs doncha' know).
Pride goes to surface Elves who falsely claim that they not Drow are the originals! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475794-Drow-the-original-Elves)

RickAllison
2016-07-14, 12:46 PM
How about Oni? One of the things they are known for is endless hunger, but not in the same way as trolls. Trolls go out and just eat, whereas Oni go out into towns in disguise to decide which lives it wants to have, being especially fond of children. Basically, their hunger is not about the food, but about taking it away from someone else. The more precious that person is to others (like babies), the more delicious it is to the Oni.

MrStabby
2016-07-14, 12:52 PM
Pride could cross with vanity for medusa or banshee.

Though that might push Dragon towards greed.

Envy is Kraken, they hate and envy the gods? Also touching a little on the Aboleth as well.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-07-14, 02:41 PM
Is there a subcategory for height envy? Because that's halflings.

Sloth could also be something like trolls, or in a comedy campaign actual sloths.

Preferably giant ground sloths.

RickAllison
2016-07-14, 03:00 PM
My 7:

Envy: Oni or lower undead. Oni seem to be constantly hungry not for food, but for the magic and life of others. Undead because I like to imagine the unintelligent undead's instinctual hatred of living things as the desire to have back what was lost. Same thing for the draining and aging effect of other undead, it is about the envy the feel toward what the living possess.

Greed: Dragons!!!

Pride: the highest undead (liches, death Knights, vampires, mummy lords). Liches have such pride that they sacrifice others' lives to perpetuate their own. Death Knights have fallen so far due to their hubris that they are cursed to walk the earth. Vampires are vampires, doing vampiric things. Mummy lords were treated as gods in life and seek to continue such reverence in death. Super prideful.

Lust: foocubi are too obvious, so I will go doppelgänger. A creature that can prey off the desires of every creature, becoming the ideal mate, these guys really prey off this trait.

Gluttony: trolls!!! Also, bulettes because I like them.

Wrath: gnolls

Sloth: flumphs. Do they ever do anything? More seriously, myconids actually seem like a perfect fit for this.

nedz
2016-07-14, 04:19 PM
Kender, if you allow any number of them into your campaign...

Now that's an idea for a game - everyone gets to play a Kender. At least the griefing would be equally shared out.

Jay R
2016-07-14, 05:53 PM
Half-elves
Half-orcs
Half-dragons
Half-celestials
Half-fey
Half-ogres
Half-fiends

I think we can make a case for humans for Lust.

MrStabby
2016-07-14, 06:02 PM
Half-elves
Half-orcs
Half-dragons
Half-celestials
Half-fey
Half-ogres
Half-fiends

I think we can make a case for humans for Lust.

Plus centaurs have to come from somewhere, right?

2D8HP
2016-07-14, 06:08 PM
Plus centaurs have to come from somewhere, right?Hey buddy, they were the ones that propositioned me.

:wink:

Sith_Happens
2016-07-14, 06:48 PM
Personally I really think you should change Dark Elves from Lust to Envy. They really seem like a stretch as Lust, while at least in D&D Envy is the singular driving force behind almost every aspect of their society.

AMFV
2016-07-14, 07:38 PM
Personally I really think you should change Dark Elves from Lust to Envy. They really seem like a stretch as Lust, while at least in D&D Envy is the singular driving force behind almost every aspect of their society.

It's worth noting that lust isn't just about sexual gratification. It's inappropriate physical pleasures. This can take the form of sexual gratification, but there are many other aspects to it as well, that wouldn't be covered by sexual aspects.

Although Envy might be a better fit for them, you are correct, although then I'm stuck without Lust.

Edit:


Pride could cross with vanity for medusa or banshee.

I would say that vanity at least in the definition I'm using isn't very close to Pride. I'll go through here in a second and go through the definitions that I'm using. Pride is mostly a focus on putting your own personal values over Goodness itself. Essentially assuming that what you want and believe is more valid than Goodness.

Also, just because I'm using a race to represent a particular sin, doesn't mean that they only possess that sin, in the philosophy I'm tying things to, Pride for example, would be the root of most of the other sins, meaning that Dragons might manifest many sins.

Sith_Happens
2016-07-14, 09:17 PM
Although Envy might be a better fit for them, you are correct, although then I'm stuck without Lust.

Lust will probably be a lot easy to find other options for, and I really just can't see Drow as anything other than envy seeing as about 70% of their usual shtick is backstabbing each other to get ahead, 25% is enslaving everyone else to get ahead, and the last 5% is inflicting atrocities on surface Elves out of resentment for their getting to live on the surface.

Bohandas
2016-07-14, 09:31 PM
It's worth noting that lust isn't just about sexual gratification. It's inappropriate physical pleasures. This can take the form of sexual gratification, but there are many other aspects to it as well, that wouldn't be covered by sexual aspects.

I could see lust crossing into serial killing, arson, and bodily mutilation. But the drow aren't really known for any of those things (well kind of serial killing, but the fluff usually has it more about political assasinations (there's your envy) and anger/revenge/wrath rather than killing a person just to watch them die)

Bohandas
2016-07-14, 09:56 PM
You could move dark elves to envy and then the obvious choice for the new lust would be demons. They can mate with anything, they've got the succubus, and they've also got the ekolid which attacks by implanting eggs in people like some kind of gender-swapped tentacle monster.

Alternately lust could be undead. A big patt of their schtick is making more undead. Plus vampires are sensual or whatever.

You'd need a new sloth though. Possibly yugoloths if you want to stick with the never-doing-good angle. Otherwise possibly one of the more indolent types of fey (or fey in general) or of almost-fey humanoids. Or maybe a fiendish sloth.

The treants could also work. They're based on the Ents from LoTR, whose response to their land being invaded was to form a comittee to decide whether or not they should do anything about their land being invaded. Speaking of LotR derived creatures, the halflings were initially based on the hobbits, one of the more dull and indolent races of Middle Earth (the Took clan excluded). This influence has been increasingly depreciated though, albeit without adding much new of significance to take it's place, resulting in something that doesn't pull it's weignt as a cre race - meta-sloth

goto124
2016-07-15, 12:15 AM
Satyrs for Lust? Or is that too much, depending on the tone of the game?

What is Lust supposed to be anyway? Most stories don't go beyond 'sexy succubi luring men to their doom', and before we derail this thread, there have already been many other threads discussing why those succubi aren't really a good representation of 'lust'.

Bohandas
2016-07-15, 12:21 AM
How about sirens for lust

goto124
2016-07-15, 12:24 AM
The ones who sit on rocks in the sea and sing songs so beautiful, they lure ships into crashing on sharp rocks?

Freemason Than
2016-07-15, 03:10 AM
Envy
Dark Elves are an obvious shoe-in for envy. I'm happy to see other people thought the same. There's a reason they're considered the emos of D&D. They hate the surface elves for being better and more respected than them in every way. And they hate each other because they just can't stand the sight of someone having more power, wealth or influence than themselves.

Wrath
I'm not too keen on orcs. They're violent and impulsive, but I wouldn't really call them wrathful. They're more the type to punch someone in the nose today and share a beer with them tomorrow.

But you know who can hold a grudge for decades, if not centuries? Ghosts. Especially spectres and banshees.
These guys always blame someone for their death, and they're always out for revenge.


In general, I would keep the interpretations pretty simple. If you make too much use of 'from a certain point of view...', or 'actually, in the grander scope of the definition ...' you might confuse your players. You're representing the seven deadly sins. Go for the truly iconic ones.

goto124
2016-07-15, 05:48 AM
Is this one of the few times it's acceptable to have Drizzt clones? :smalltongue:

Jay R
2016-07-15, 12:09 PM
The ones who sit on rocks in the sea and sing songs so beautiful, they lure ships into crashing on sharp rocks?

They are not experiencing lust; they are inspiring lust in others. They might be just trying to cause shipwrecks, and using other people's lust as the tool to do so.

Blue Ghost
2016-07-15, 12:53 PM
They are not experiencing lust; they are inspiring lust in others. They might be just trying to cause shipwrecks, and using other people's lust as the tool to do so.

What is their motivation for causing shipwrecks though? If it's just because they enjoy watching sailors drown, I think that works well for lust.

goto124
2016-07-15, 08:34 PM
How aboht naiads? Oglaf (highly NSFW comic) had a group of them who 'do' humans in their lake, drowning them in the middle of the 'act'. Fulfils both forms of Lust :smallbiggrin:

Bonus points if naiads come in different sexes, sizes, and shapes. Gotta appeal to different demographics after all.

Kami2awa
2016-07-17, 04:43 PM
Envy
Dark Elves are an obvious shoe-in for envy. I'm happy to see other people thought the same. There's a reason they're considered the emos of D&D. They hate the surface elves for being better and more respected than them in every way. And they hate each other because they just can't stand the sight of someone having more power, wealth or influence than themselves.


The irony being that the dark elves are probably more popular with the D&D fanbase than the surface elves.

Sith_Happens
2016-07-17, 11:56 PM
I'd second satyrs for Lust, but I notice that all of the choices so far are iconic antagonist races (which satyrs aren't) and I'm assuming that's on purpose.

goto124
2016-07-18, 12:42 AM
If satyrs are Lustful (in a very... aggressive sense), they're probably antagonistic too.

Like many fictional creatures, satyrs come in different flavors. Some versions aren't really Lustful, more of the happy-go-lucky music-playing kind.

RickAllison
2016-07-18, 01:08 AM
If satyrs are Lustful (in a very... aggressive sense), they're probably antagonistic too.

Like many fictional creatures, satyrs come in different flavors. Some versions aren't really Lustful, more of the happy-go-lucky music-playing kind.

And some are brutal, agile killers!

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/godofwar/images/1/1f/Satyr.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080712190209

Incorrect
2016-07-18, 04:06 AM
Humans are a great fit for Lust. All of the half/sub-species; but also lust for power.
Revealing humans to be in the group of monsters could be a surprising twist in the campaign.

Acanous
2016-07-18, 04:14 AM
Mimics. Gotta be Mimics.

JenBurdoo
2016-07-20, 09:07 AM
Honestly, for envy I'd use dragons -- they want wealth and can't get enough of it.

Pride would be for elves.

awa
2016-07-20, 03:45 PM
feel like wanting wealth fits better with greed rather then envy

dragons are normally famed for being hyper possessive of what they already have far more then they are about taking other peoples stuff. greed is about wanting all the things because things are great, envy is about wanting other peoples things because their other peoples things

editing some horrible typos and poor word choice

RickAllison
2016-07-20, 05:48 PM
feel like wanting wealth fits better with greed rather then envy

dragons are normally famed for being hyper possessive of what they already have far more then they are about taking other peoples stuff. greed is about wanting all the things but things are great, envy is about wanting your things because their your things

The classic example of this is Scrooge McDuck (from the Carl Barks comics, and possibly the DuckTales universe. He may be different in a given cartoon, as any character can be). He is greedy. Very greedy. He is often defined in- and out-of-universe by his greed. He doesn't really care if other people are rich, so long as he is the richest. He may be a cutthroat businessman, but any ducks he tramples over are due to a desire to increase his own possessions rather than take another's. That's why so many comics focus on him seeking out unclaimed treasure rather than trying to take over competing businesses, he cares about the money and not where it came from.

We see this again in Smaug from The Hobbit. The big lug seems perfectly content to laze about with his treasure rather than seeking out new hoards to conquer. Why? Because he wants riches to bask in it, not because he is envious of the hoards of others.

Now let's consider D&D dragons. They collect hoards, no? Even younger ones do. Yet, how would any younger ones collect hoards if the older ones were envious enough to want the gold of others? Surely, an Adult Blue Dragon would be happy enough to take a pile of unguarded gold, but he is less likely to if another dragon is guarding it. For that matter, how would anyone conduct business with them? They have the power to take the possessions of most anyone, so why not take it all rather than some? Because they desire money, not necessarily the money of others.

2D8HP
2016-07-20, 06:00 PM
But Dragons are very stingy of their hoards, recall that the Dragon in Beowulf went on a rampage because a thief stole a single cup from its treasure hoard.

cobaltstarfire
2016-07-20, 06:11 PM
But Dragons are very stingy of their hoards, recall that the Dragon in Beowulf went on a rampage because a thief stole a single cup from its treasure hoard.

But that isn't "envy" that's angry because someone stole what was his. If I was the paragon of greed you better believe I'd be pissed if someone took what was truly and rightfully mine!


I also thought that Kobolds would be a good envious monster.


Sirens would be good but they aren't "representing" lust like the other creatures are their sins.


I'm kind of curious as to what monsters ended up representing the seven virtues.

JenBurdoo
2016-07-20, 11:34 PM
OK, that makes sense and I take it back - Dragons aren't envious (though they certainly could be in an appropriate setting - I am leaning towards having two dragons fight over my PCs' home city in my campaign). I still don't think pride works for them, though.

RickAllison
2016-07-21, 12:12 AM
OK, that makes sense and I take it back - Dragons aren't envious (though they certainly could be in an appropriate setting - I am leaning towards having two dragons fight over my PCs' home city in my campaign). I still don't think pride works for them, though.

In just about every depiction I've seen of dragons (noble, barbaric, eastern, western, etc.), pride is heavily represented in that they consider themselves above other species. Dragons tend to think of themselves as perfect creatures, the embodiment and synergy of magic and physical power. They are often greedy (I know of at least one depiction of dragons that cared not a whit for gold, but just wanted a nice, quiet, and warm place with company to raise their young), but I have always seen them treated as being prideful.

Just imagine a dragon (one that isn't antithetical to his kind) making a comment that dragons are equals to other races. Doesn't that seem to mismatch every dragon you've heard of in stories? Even dragons that eschew the total disregard of lower races tend to consider themselves superior.

2D8HP
2016-07-21, 12:19 AM
But that isn't "envy" that's angry because someone stole what was his. If I was the paragon of greed you better believe I'd be pissed if someone took what was truly and rightfully mine!


I also thought that Kobolds would be a good envious monster.


Sirens would be good but they aren't "representing" lust like the other creatures are their sins.


I'm kind of curious as to what monsters ended up representing the seven virtues.
Just agreeing with post a lot.
:smile: