Ember City

[HalfTangible]

This is a thread for Empire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494142-EMPIRE2!-CWBG-V-It-s-Mostly-Chicken-Based-Actually), a grand strategy game that is always recruiting. If you're not invited, please leave this thread. Or at least pretend you never saw it.

[Primus]
Ember City

When Primus has initially proposed this meeting, there had been some conflict over where precisely to host it. Ambrose would have been the logical choice, or perhaps the Kingdom of Berrium. However, Primus wanted the meeting to be as secret as possible from other powers.

After much discussion, Primus had offered up a particular city in the verdant Astrus valley, named for a long-dead house. It was technically in Primal lands, but was close enough to Ambrose for them to easily reach. The city was technically owned by House Bridus, but they were eager to please the royal family and had quickly granted Phelnia's request to host her guests in the city. Lady Navus had done her best to ensure ease of accommodations for all comers. She had called for small delegations partly to keep the meeting secret but also to ensure resources were kept to a minimum.

The guests would arrive to find a place so small it was barely a city. It was one of the Imperium's Castra towns, more of a fort than a civilized town. It was evidently planned with defense in mind, with sloping roofs and meticulously designed roads. However, their needs were seen to be handsome men and pretty girls, flitting, flirting and running to keep their wine glasses full and their beds soft and ready at all times. When all of the guests had arrived, they were brought into the city's town hall. The place was pouring down rain now, They found themselves in a meeting room with a long table, a woman with silver hair sitting and waiting for them.

Lady Navus had not been as public as was perhaps wise for a woman with her job. She maintained a youthful look despite her advancing age, even for the Primal. She wore a purple robe that she had kept conservative for once, and her wakizashi was set aside.

The head diplomat for the Imperium looked around the room as the chosen representatives filed in. This wouldn't be too hard of a sell. Ambrose was friendly with the Imperium and had been pushing for stronger times. The Kingdom of Berrium had grown quieter in recent years, but it maintained a friendly relationship with the crown. The Kroznat league would probably look forward to putting what she planned to propose here to use.

The big issue was Nand. They were bureaucratic as they came, and wanted as little to do with the Imperium as possible. They would be the hardest sell, probably.

When all had seated, Lady Navus stood. "Friends of the Imperium," She placed her hands together in front of her. "We're all tired and this rain is unbearable, so I will skip the pleasantries. I have asked you here today to form a coalition of the western powers."

"In the east, there is an alliance called the Greater East Arandi Co-Prosperity Sphere, consisting of the False Scholars of the Unicity, the underground warriors of the Exarchate, and the naval prowess of Nemeria. They trade their technology and, as we discovered recently, military aid in the event of conflict."

She looked up. "I believe that we should take a note from them. The realms here assembled should agree to mutual military support within reason, as well as technological aid where possible. Previous diplomatic agreements will be honored, naturally, but from now on we must provide aid to one another. Primus' cunning spies and brutal warriors, Berrium's knights in shining armor, the Kroznat's coin, the Ambrose's clever charm, and the grand army of the Nand would be unstoppable working together."

"Are there any objections to forming this coalition?"

The Crystal Union isn't included for OOC reasons relating to world wars, and [redacted] didn't want me to invite the Greys.

[Aedilred]

What a dump. There were likely pigsties* in Avali more suitable for hosting diplomatic gatherings. Not that he'd seen them in person, of course. But this trip had done little to shake the inherent prejudices against Primus generally present in all Nanda born since the turn of the century. There had been talk of sending Karapan Morvarid to this meeting as the kingdom's representative and foremost expert on Primal culture, but Prince Kusal had argued against it - firstly because he suspected Morvarid to have been largely responsible for much of the negative press Primus received, and secondly because her reputation had yet to recover from the, well, Primal-like behaviour of her daughter while a cadet. It was hard to retain the moral high ground in such matters when one's own family were undermining one so.

Kambuzir held his peace, though, toying moodily with the stem of his glass as he listened. As a matter which concerned the whole League, there were plenty of representatives from other members here, and for now at least he seemed happy to let them have their say.

As Lady Navus posed her question, it was Lord Magister Vytautas of Puldine who leaned forwards, glancing from side to side to see whether a more senior League representative wished to take precedence, before beginning his reply.

"It is an interesting notion," he said, with a degree of caution, "and an idea perhaps overdue. However, we in Puldine have some experience of coalitions and the failure of such coalitions-" he self-effacingly entertained a degree of laughter at this - "and it is in the details where such arrangements tend to stand or fall. Vague statements of principle such as Lady Navus has given us are all very well, and I am sure intended to serve only as introduction-" he gave her a nod to indicate he intended no offence- "but before such arrangements can be considered satisfactory all sides must know exactly what it is they are agreeing to.

"For instance," he continued, "she mentions the eastern alliance as a precedent and model for our discussion. But that arrangement is betwen three powers of roughly equal size and influence." He shook back his grey sleeve and reached out a bony hand to manoeuvre some crockery around the table, assembling two saucers and a sugar bowl. "The power of each is outweighed by that of the other two. It acts as a balancing mechanism and means that all parties benefit roughly equally. However, if one party is significantly greater than either of the other two, it unbalances the whole affair." He took a much larger plate and put it on top of the existing arrangement, covering the two saucers, and then removed the sugar bowl.

"This is to an extent the relationship we have within the League of Allied Provinces. There are some great powers, and many smaller ones. But the League is arranged in such a way that the interests of the smaller powers can be protected, while they do not benefit unduly from the relationship by comparison with the larger ones. I assume that today we are not here to talk about an expansion of the League to encompass Primus and Berrium, but rather that the League should enter as a single entity into collaboration with each of these two powers separately. Given that this is to be a rather looser arrangement than the League is, it is, I think, especially important that we put in place controls so that such an alliance may be of roughly equal benefit to all parties."




* Strictly speaking, there are no native pigs in Nand; rather, there is a similarly-sized omnivorous reptile which broadly fulfils the same niche. However I've assumed the relevant word in Nanda is translated effectively as "pigsty" for general consumption rather than confuse things with unnecessary fantasy jargon.

I think the only reason not to invite the Greys is that it would be inviting the CU by proxy, as they're tied up with each other. If the CU are to be excluded then the Diedruch has to be as well.

[HalfTangible]

"'Tis true." Lady Navus nodded. "Autonomy is an evident concern for all involved. A powerful member does not want her power taken advantage of for someone else's sole benefit, while a weak one does not wish to be exploited and unable to retaliate. I take it, however, you do not object to the idea in principle?"

She placed her hand on the table. "Determining the precise details of this compact is the main reason we are in this place. Do you have particular suggestions? At the moment my thoughts are running towards a mutual defense contract and technological trade as free as possible."

[Jerry]

"It's true, I admit, that Berrium with our nine realms under one rule is the smallest of the concerned holdings present today." King Valerius leaned back in his chair and twirled the end of his moustache.

"Even if the Provinces were to split into three equal holdings to represent the three major concerns would they each dwarf my Kingdom." A wry smile crossed his thin lips.

"And what if we asserted that we did wish to join the Provinces?" He raised his eyebrow at this query.

"Do not think that it has gone unoticed that the Provinces has not asked her western neighbors to swear allegiance to them. Even as the Rose Courts demand their allies to bend the knee, you have taken our friendship on faith. But even as you respect our autonomy, do you respect equally respect our influence? Berrium has reached those shores beyond our former western borders and we now neighbor the eastern coalition." He tapped his fingers on the table absently while speaking.

"Seerono are socially inept geniuses. The Nemerians are bullies. Perhaps you are correct that Berrium has more to gain from this allegiance as you, but I would hope that our loyalty and contributions to the western continent are not thought so little of as to be mistaken for trifles. I understand that the Provinces has made good use of our courier systems?" He raised his eyebrow in askance though he already knew the answer.

[PepperP.]

The Ambrosan delegation had entered as the Berrium King was speaking. They had arrived soaking wet and dripping from the rain. Baram quickly divested himself of his heavy cloak, and pulled off his wet shirt as his Nyle followed suit. Aides quickly handed them cloths with which to dry off with as best as they could while Baram listened intently to his neighbor's concerns. He tossed the damp cloth back to his aides and addressed the room,

"I apologize for our delayed arrival." The glance he threw at his Ploigos was at once subtle but withering. He pushed back the wet hair from his face as Nyle gathered his own shoulder length hair into a ponytail. Both men still shirtless, their bold clan tattoos stretched across their back and shoulders and detailed their ranks and accomplishments for anybody versed in reading them. They were joined by a third Lord, the Polemarchos Pedyr Collins, brother of the ambassador that Ambrose had sent to Berrium some years ago.

"Your Courier System has been instrumental in maintaining peace within the Provinces." He said with a grin by way of greeting the Berrium King.

"Lady Navus, a pleasure." He nodded politely to their host and greeted his peers amicably in turn before he took an empty seat at the large table.

Protos Archigos Baram Asker - my king
Polemarchos Nyle Darkthorne Drivas - Baram's second.
Polemarchos Pedyr Collins - brother to Bradford Collins and Master of Coin.
Polemarchoses are clan leaders. Nyle over the Drivas clan and Pedyr the Collins.

[BladeofObliviom]

"Indeed." mumbled the form of the Mirzahib of Krozna, still surprisingly animated even in his age. It had been a long time since he'd personally met with foreign leaders; this event simply reminded him of his youth. "I do hope," Shou admonished Lady Navus, "that you see more to an arrangement between us than our coin. What fine company, eh? The cunning of Ambrose, the might of Nand, and the pocket change of Krozna itself." He let out a soft chuckle at that, apparently more amused than offended.

The South Sea Secretary at his side whispered something in the man's ear, eliciting a single nod. "Oh yes, thank you. It is true indeed that our arrangement has little in common with that eastern bloc, and yet less in common with the lands wrapped in Roses' Thorns. To pretend us all of equal might would be folly, but so too would we be arrogant to presume ourselves master and all whom our petals fall upon vassal, their accomplishments subsumed unto ours. We are somewhere in between, and to say we must do this because others have also made such arrangements is foolish.

If we forge an alliance, consign our traditional bonds to writing, it should be on our own terms, not those of some faraway power."

[Aedilred]

A woman some places to the left of the Mirzahib smiled cruelly at his comment. Though now into her middle age, Tamara, meti of Llurikesh, still had a striking appearance, enhanced by her gloves, which appeared to be of snakeskin. She nodded as Shou concluded his point, and turned to the king of Berrium.

"The role of Berrium and Primus in the War of Liberation is not forgotten," she said, with a respectful nod at each of their representatives, "though the situation has changed since it was fought. In the years since, both have acquired faraway lands. Berrium has expanded its holdings far to the north and the northwest, coming into contact with the Nifhel and Nihoni and other peoples who begin with N and whose names I can't remember. Primus has its colonies in the distant islands of Pavos, which are surrounded by potential enemies. Meanwhile the League remains much as it was. We face no new challenges to the west, which is mostly desert. We are on good terms with the Crystal Union, and, while the Grey Diedruch is a source of much frustration, it is in no way a threat to us."

She raised a hand in apology. "I cannot deny that Llurikesh has benefited more than most from its alliances, but it seems to me that it is much more likely that our troops are to be called on to defend the recent acquisition of Primus and Berrium than that your armies are to be called on again to defend us. This would seem a clear problem in any full military alliance."

As she finished, a low chuckle came from Kambuzir, who finally looked up and appeared to join the meeting. "But there we have it, do we not. The elephant* in the room. The issue lies with the foe Lady Tamara did not name. The Crystal Union are friends, the Nihoni bugs to be swatted, the Diedruch a minor irritation, the northern barbarians eastward-looking. My principal interest is with military matters, and there is no threat which would require full military cooperation between us to defeat - save one."

He spoke quickly, too quickly, slightly, whether out of a desire to finish before he was interrupted, or because his brain was throwing the words too him almost more quickly than he could speak them. He glanced at Baram and shrugged slightly, apparently aware that the Ambrosan would likely have heard his argument a number of times before from his brothers. "It's no secret that we in Nand consider the Aeldir to be the greatest single threat to our kingdom and to our allies and have done for some time. Whatever their stated intentions, their record shows them to be rapacious for land and power-hungry. Even their allies are made to bend the knee, as King Valerius says. They will eventually turn their eyes to us, when they run out of others to subdue. Indeed perhaps they already have, if the rumours I've heard of Aeldir missionaries being turned away at Primal borders is true. The west is free - for now - and I would see it remain that way.

"In my opinion, therefore, the main objective of this alliance being proposed is to present a united front against the Aeldir. Where other foreign powers are concerned, it would be either redundant or unbalanced, or both. So let us talk about it openly as such. With that in mind, Lady Navus, bearing in mind that you spoke of honouring prior diplomatic agreements, are there any such agreements specifically with the Aeldir which would stymie such an alliance?"

*As with the pigs :smallwink:

[Jerry]

Valerius turned his eyes from the Ambrosian men to the Lady Tamara as she asserted her last point.

"So too were they turned from the gates of Centrata. They toy with us, knowing our lack of formal unification renders us weak. If they had been successful in establishing a religious influence within my borders, there was little to be done about it. I am willing to make concessions to the right party, but this attempt at coercion by forceful conversion galls a man's pride it does." His cheeks flushed with anger at the Aeldir slight to his autonomy, his companion seated next to him, the Ambrosian Bradford Collins, squeezed his arm for a moment. A more intimate gesture than might be expected from a mere state ambassador.

[HalfTangible]

A woman some places to the left of the Mirzahib smiled cruelly at his comment. Though now into her middle age, Tamara, meti of Llurikesh, still had a striking appearance, enhanced by her gloves, which appeared to be of snakeskin. She nodded as Shou concluded his point, and turned to the king of Berrium.

"The role of Berrium and Primus in the War of Liberation is not forgotten," she said, with a respectful nod at each of their representatives, "though the situation has changed since it was fought. In the years since, both have acquired faraway lands. Berrium has expanded its holdings far to the north and the northwest, coming into contact with the Nifhel and Nihoni and other peoples who begin with N and whose names I can't remember. Primus has its colonies in the distant islands of Pavos, which are surrounded by potential enemies. Meanwhile the League remains much as it was. We face no new challenges to the west, which is mostly desert. We are on good terms with the Crystal Union, and, while the Grey Diedruch is a source of much frustration, it is in no way a threat to us."

She raised a hand in apology. "I cannot deny that Llurikesh has benefited more than most from its alliances, but it seems to me that it is much more likely that our troops are to be called on to defend the recent acquisition of Primus and Berrium than that your armies are to be called on again to defend us. This would seem a clear problem in any full military alliance."

As she finished, a low chuckle came from Kambuzir, who finally looked up and appeared to join the meeting. "But there we have it, do we not. The elephant* in the room. The issue lies with the foe Lady Tamara did not name. The Crystal Union are friends, the Nihoni bugs to be swatted, the Diedruch a minor irritation, the northern barbarians eastward-looking. My principal interest is with military matters, and there is no threat which would require full military cooperation between us to defeat - save one."

He spoke quickly, too quickly, slightly, whether out of a desire to finish before he was interrupted, or because his brain was throwing the words too him almost more quickly than he could speak them. He glanced at Baram and shrugged slightly, apparently aware that the Ambrosan would likely have heard his argument a number of times before from his brothers. "It's no secret that we in Nand consider the Aeldir to be the greatest single threat to our kingdom and to our allies and have done for some time. Whatever their stated intentions, their record shows them to be rapacious for land and power-hungry. Even their allies are made to bend the knee, as King Valerius says. They will eventually turn their eyes to us, when they run out of others to subdue. Indeed perhaps they already have, if the rumours I've heard of Aeldir missionaries being turned away at Primal borders is true. The west is free - for now - and I would see it remain that way.

"In my opinion, therefore, the main objective of this alliance being proposed is to present a united front against the Aeldir. Where other foreign powers are concerned, it would be either redundant or unbalanced, or both. So let us talk about it openly as such. With that in mind, Lady Navus, bearing in mind that you spoke of honouring prior diplomatic agreements, are there any such agreements specifically with the Aeldir which would stymie such an alliance?"

*As with the pigs :smallwink:((There are elephant on Arandi - see Quintas :smallwink:)


Valerius turned his eyes from the Ambrosian men to the Lady Tamara as she asserted her last point.

"So too were they turned from the gates of Centrata. They toy with us, knowing our lack of formal unification renders us weak. If they had been successful in establishing a religious influence within my borders, there was little to be done about it. I am willing to make concessions to the right party, but this attempt at coercion by forceful conversion galls a man's pride it does." His cheeks flushed with anger at the Aeldir slight to his autonomy, his companion seated next to him, the Ambrosian Bradford Collins, squeezed his arm for a moment. A more intimate gesture than might be expected from a mere state ambassador.

"The sphere I use merely as an example in general terms, not necessarily as a model to follow." She nodded to the Mirzahib. "Krozna has more to offer this alliance than coin, just as Primus has more to offer than warriors. But to call that coin pocket change would be to sell it short." She smiled. "No pun intended."

"I would expect this coalition - or alliance, or whatever you wish to call it - to have terms of its own, yes. A diplomatic solution for one group or situation will not be a solution for another."

She rose up her own glass, watching the red wine swirl in her cup. "To put my motivations on the table, you are correct. Primus' main concern at the moment is the Sphere. I don't need to remind anyone here that the False Scholars of the Truserchen Unicity have the diplomatic skills of a rabid wombat. They have stolen from the Kingdom of Berrium and Avonlea, and others. They tried to do it in Ambrose. All my attempts at negotiation for a proper restitution have been handled by Nemeria, who insisted that Primus pay them for their forgiveness, an idea so ludicrous I actually thought it was a joke." She looked up, taking a sip. "And if anything, they're getting more confident in their ability to steal from us all and run away laughing.

She glanced at Kambuzir, her eyes narrowing. "Your naked aggression puts even Primus' greatest whores and warriors to shame, Kambuzir. I applaud you." Her tone held a playful mockery, though her eyes were as steel. "It is true that the Aeldir must be presented a united front, but they cannot be the only power we present that front to. Much as you might wish it."

And they are not our biggest concern, WHY DO YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

"Negotiations with Anceris have revealed to us that they have begun trading for the Sphere's Yondervoed for the sake of the cuirass that they use in naval warfare. Let me repeat that. The Pale Empyrium - one of the great powers on the eastern continent, and host to one of Arandi's largest religious faiths - now has trade ties to the Prosperity Sphere that ensure its access to a very potent technology."

"Tell me, does the prospect of the Pale Empyrium, the Truserchen theives, Nemerian bullies and Nihoni 'gnats' all working together to harm you sound like something you want while also pushing for war against the Aeldir?"

She glanced at Kambuzir as he brought up Aeldir Speakers, not bothering to hide her amusement now. "You need better informants. Those rumors are bull**** started by scared little Daenites in Quartus who're still angry we did not adopt the 'All-mother' as our official faith. Not a single Speaker even attempted to pass our borders.*" Her sneer died. If they had, the High Queen and Princess would likely have welcomed them with open arms like the fools they were.

She glanced at Valerius. "... Though it seems they did come to the Kingdom. All the more reason to stand united, then."

"Yes, Primus has deals with the Aeldir, including a mutual non-aggression pact. You too have deals with the Aeldir. Why does it matter? None of those deals concern Nand's military and as far as I know, you have both of the technologies that the Courts have granted us: Clinker ships and navigation by the stars."

"If anything I should be worried about your deals."

This is how I interpreted Dark's attempted-and-failed roll to get into my lands. See my rumors section, it's been up that way for a while.

[Aedilred]

She glanced at Kambuzir, her eyes narrowing. "Your naked aggression puts even Primus' greatest whores and warriors to shame, Kambuzir. I applaud you." Her tone held a playful mockery, though her eyes were as steel. "It is true that the Aeldir must be presented a united front, but they cannot be the only power we present that front to. Much as you might wish it."

And they are not our biggest concern, WHY DO YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

"Negotiations with Anceris have revealed to us that they have begun trading for the Sphere's Yondervoed for the sake of the cuirass that they use in naval warfare. Let me repeat that. The Pale Empyrium - one of the great powers on the eastern continent, and host to one of Arandi's largest religious faiths - now has trade ties to the Prosperity Sphere that ensure its access to a very potent technology."

"Tell me, does the prospect of the Pale Empyrium, the Truserchen theives, Nemerian bullies and Nihoni 'gnats' all working together to harm you sound like something you want while also pushing for war against the Aeldir?"

She glanced at Kambuzir as he brought up Aeldir Speakers, not bothering to hide her amusement now. "You need better informants. Those rumors are bull**** started by scared little Daenites in Quartus who're still angry we did not adopt the 'All-mother' as our official faith. Not a single Speaker even attempted to pass our borders.*" Her sneer died. If they had, the High Queen and Princess would likely have welcomed them with open arms like the fools they were.

She glanced at Valerius. "... Though it seems they did come to the Kingdom. All the more reason to stand united, then."

"Yes, Primus has deals with the Aeldir, including a mutual non-aggression pact. You too have deals with the Aeldir. Why does it matter? None of those deals concern Nand's military and as far as I know, you have both of the technologies that the Courts have granted us: Clinker ships and navigation by the stars."

"If anything I should be worried about your deals. For all your calls to arms with the Courts you seem to get cozy when they have something you want. Yes, we negotiate with the courts, but we are honest about it."

This is how I interpreted Dark's attempted-and-failed roll to get into my lands. See my rumors section, it's been up that way for a while.

"But this is Tamara's point," Kambuzir replied, levelly. "This collaboration of which you speak between the Nihoni, Nemerians, Truserchen and Pale Empyrium - that might indeed be of concern to you and Berrium, given your expansion into nearby lands. But I see no reason why it should concern me. These powers exist on the far side of the world. The Aeldir stare at me across the straits of Luska."

[HalfTangible]

"But this is Tamara's point," Kambuzir replied, levelly. "This collaboration of which you speak between the Nihoni, Nemerians, Truserchen and Pale Empyrium - that might indeed be of concern to you and Berrium, given your expansion into nearby lands. But I see no reason why it should concern me. These powers exist on the far side of the world. The Aeldir stare at me across the straits of Luska."

She raised an eyebrow. "And because you had them agree to leave the west alone, their expansion goes east, on the other side of the planet. Right next to the same powers mentioned that you so easily dismiss."

"The particular power we form this union to oppose isn't what matters. What does is that it be formed."

EDIT:

"And to be frank, if you will not help us deal with the Sphere, then why should we help you deal with the Aeldir? They are a concern of Primus', but a long-term one. The sphere is an immediate problem."

[BladeofObliviom]

"Perhaps." Shou frowns. "But you have made it clear, Lady Navus, that you fear whatever these brutes and fools in a faraway land can muster, and that you seek the swords of our people to shed blood on your behalf. That is not irrelevant. And if you wonder why you should be concerned about the Aeldir, consider why their eyes are upon the east; you lie under the shadow of our shield, consenting or not."

[HalfTangible]

"Perhaps." Shou frowns. "But you have made it clear, Lady Navus, that you fear whatever these brutes and fools in a faraway land can muster, and that you seek the swords of our people to shed blood on your behalf. That is not irrelevant."

Lady Navus glanced to Shou. "You are mistaken. I am not afraid of cowards, thieves and bullies, nor am I asking you to spill your blood in a faraway conflict you don't care for. I want to intimidate the Sphere into playing nice. They clearly do not care what Primus or Berrium think, so I want to test their feelings on the League."

"And you want me to fight the Aeldir when that time comes. Fine, I am willing to make that trade."


"And if you wonder why you should be concerned about the Aeldir, consider why their eyes are upon the east; you lie under the shadow of our shield, consenting or not."

"We only need your shield because Nand rattles its sword at Tir Amser every chance it gets."

[PepperP.]

Pedyr smiled quietly and stroked his chin as his eyes met his brother's as Bradford had reached out to calm the Berrium King. This glance was not lost on Baram and he thought, not for the first time, what an asset the man had been to his Court. A faint smile crossed his face as Kambuzir replayed the familiar anti-Aeldir tune, though he could not, and indeed had never wholly discounted the idea. While he was reasonably assured in Ambrose's good relations with the Rose Courts, his fate was ultimately tied to Nand, who's animosity towards the Aeldir seemed to grow exponentially by the hour. He had to agree that the PE seemed to pose little threat to them at the moment, them being one of the very few polities outside of LAP that Nand got on well with.

"I agree with Valerius's concern over the bold action of missionairies sent to his lands by the Aeldir. This is worrisome, and even more so if it shows to be a trend. While I would personally attempt to thwart any act of war against them, It displays rather well their arrogance and willingness to push the boundaries of our treaty." He turned from Valerius to Lady Navus,

"We do not perceive the Pale Empyrium to be a threat to our peace at this time, though the attempts at spycraft by the Truserchen was met with our ire, I see little reason to assume war, as the attempts have not been duplicated, as far as I know. Do you have knowledge or evidence that might convince of us their threat?" He turned to Valerius as an invitation to speak of his experiences with the eastern Co-prosperity sphere.

[Aedilred]

"We only need your shield because Nand rattles its sword at Tir Amser every chance it gets."

Kambuzir gave a hollow laugh. The young king was becoming visibly agitated, frustrated with the apparent combination of insousiance, impatience and vulgarity that he had been told characterised Primal diplomacy, but trying to restrain himself from saying something foolish.

"That makes no sense, Lady Navus. Why should Primus be threatened because of Nand's apparent hostility towards the Aeldir?"

"But still, if that is what you think, perhaps then we should remove our protection and see how Primus fared if left to its own defences. Where Luska, the Geshem, the Marauder Isles, Avonlea, the Stormlands, Fantastigoria and Pavos have all fallen before the Aeldir's banner, perhaps Primus would succeed in defying them. We can only speculate."

His face darkened. "Nand rattles its sword at any opportunity, you say? In our direct dealings with the Aeldir we have been nothing but conciliatory and polite, even when met with overt insult as by the Spring Court's attempts at espionage or in our meeting with Lady Spring at Melzini. My brothers and I did and do not trust the Aeldir and we say so to our allies at any opportunity, but we were and are not fools."

[HalfTangible]

Oh, so he is gay, not infertile. Illydae owes me 20 silver.

Lady Navus sat down and steepled her fingers, turning her gaze to King Valerius. He had told her in private correspondence* that Nemeria had blustered and threatened them with naval action. She doubted that would be enough to convince them of any threat, but it would be a start.

*The PM convos.

---


Kambuzir gave a hollow laugh. The young king was becoming visibly agitated, frustrated with the apparent combination of insousiance, impatience and vulgarity that he had been told characterised Primal diplomacy, but trying to restrain himself from saying something foolish.

"That makes no sense, Lady Navus. Why should Primus be threatened because of Nand's apparent hostility towards the Aeldir?"

"But still, if that is what you think, perhaps then we should remove our protection and see how Primus fared if left to its own defences. Where Luska, the Geshem, the Marauder Isles, Avonlea, the Stormlands, Fantastigoria and Pavos have all fallen before the Aeldir's banner, perhaps Primus would succeed in defying them. We can only speculate."

His face darkened. "Nand rattles its sword at any opportunity, you say? In our direct dealings with the Aeldir we have been nothing but conciliatory and polite, even when met with overt insult as by the Spring Court's attempts at espionage or in our meeting with Lady Spring at Melzini. My brothers and I did and do not trust the Aeldir and we say so to our allies at any opportunity, but we were and are not fools."

"I am worried about Nand's fear-mongering because Ambrose is tied to the League." Lady Navus said bluntly. "And they are our friends. In the event that Ambrose comes under threat - and past Aeldir action indicates that the entire League will be punished for Nand starting a war with them - honor will demand we help them survive."

"By all means, leave us to our devices. My greatest fear is what you will do to us if you start to believe we're Aeldir sympathizers." Lady Navus scowled. "If you plan to change your behavior so that we no longer require your shield, I'm all for it."

"Do not play innocent. You have made your hostility to the Aeldir so open it's practically your national slogan."

"Do you want to form a coalition against the Aeldir, the Sphere and anyone else that threatens us all in the future or not?"

[Jerry]

King Valerius steepled his fingers and turned his eyes to Baram.

"Even as our troops were readied for conquest, I received a missive from the Archduke of Nemeria. It stated that if we felt obliged to continue to impinge upon what they viewed as their ally's territory, that they would feel obligated to show us the might of their fleet." Valerius's smile turned cold.

"The invasions proceeded as planned. I have not heard from them further. However, I only recently received a letter from the Seerono stating that they had no interest in the isle that I took, and assured me that they wished to begin to mend damaged relations with the offer of constructing a library within my capital." He sat back and once again stroked his moustache.

"It would seem not all is in accord within the eastern sphere." He said with some amusement.

[HalfTangible]

King Valerius steepled his fingers and turned his eyes to Baram.

"Even as our troops were readied for conquest, I received a missive from the Archduke of Nemeria. It stated that if we felt obliged to continue to impinge upon what they viewed as their ally's territory, that they would feel obligated to show us the might of our fleet." Valerius's smile turned cold.

"The invasions proceeded as planned. I have not heard from them further. However, I only recently received a letter from the Seerono stating that they had no interest in the isle that I took, and assured me that they wished to begin to mend damaged relations with the offer of constructing a library within my capital." He sat back and once again stroked his moustache.

"It would seem not all is in accord within the eastern sphere." He said with some amusement.

Lady Navus blinked with surprise. "..... I would not trust such an endeavor, but... yes, the fact that they are not united in planning is encouraging." She rubbed her chin, thinking carefully. She seemed to have calmed down considerably.

[PepperP.]

Baram cast Lady Navus a conciliatory smile,

"It seems that it is the shadow of threats that looms over us, some larger than others. The question is whether we would all be willing to band together in the time of crises, regardless the enemy. To take a hostile action against one as against all. I am committed to the defense of the League no matter our foe, be they Aeldir, Easterners or some as yet undiscovered enemy. Are Primus and Berrium likewise willing to come to our defense? And is the League willing to defend Primus and Berrium against their perceived foes? I admit, there is little we could do to stay the hands of their enemies in the Queenslands." His eyes turned to Kambuzir, who was unaccountably sober and restrained, much to his partner's relief.

[HalfTangible]

Baram cast Lady Navus a conciliatory smile,

"It seems that it is the shadow of threats that looms over us, some larger than others. The question is whether we would all be willing to band together in the time of crises, regardless the enemy. To take a hostile action against one as against all. I am committed to the defense of the League no matter our foe, be they Aeldir, Easterners or some as yet undiscovered enemy. Are Primus and Berrium likewise willing to come to our defense? And is the League willing to defend Primus and Berrium against their perceived foes? I admit, there is little we could do to stay the hands of their enemies in the Queenslands." His eyes turned to Kambuzir, who was unaccountably sober and restrained, much to his partner's relief.

Lady Navus tapped the table before her. "... The Primal do not abandon their friends." She smiled. "Second best thing Roethye ever said."

She folded her hands. "The Queenlands would naturally be outside of a deal like this, at least for defense." Her voice had taken on the cool, controlled tone of a diplomat again. "And while Primus would gladly march to fight for our neighbors - and I imagine the Kingdom would too - we cannot honestly promise defense of the whole League; there is only so far our troops can march before they succumb to exhaustion and starvation."

"However, armies are not the only way to fight a war. We can promise to provide you troops within a reasonable distance, and come up with other ways to prosecute such a conflict."

[Aedilred]

Kambuzir had to fight the desire to laugh again, as in terms of hostility, the Aeldir - collectively at least - rated somewhere below the Prevaz and their ilk and indeed Primus itself in the minds of the Nanda. But despite his steadily rising anger at the way Primus blithely accepted the protection of the Nanda army while blaming them for needing such protection - a form of logical gymnastics he had difficulty in following - and his genuine wonder at what it was Nand had done that Primus perceived as so overtly hostile to the Aeldir as to be known outside the private meetings of the League, he felt the diplomatic thing to do was not to mention it.

Nevertheless he entertained for a moment the prospect of dealing with the Primus issue once and for all by just conquering the damn place, as they had with the Prevaz. And this is how they address those they seek alliance with!

Perhaps seeing the look on the face of the king, Lord Magister Vytautas again took up the thread, clearing his throat and adding his vinegary old voice back to proceedings.

"I think what we have seen here is a problem that cannot be ignored in the formation of any such organisation, and one which bedevils many coalitions. If it is to be successful, it must act as one. The members must trust each other's good faith and good judgment. It is apparent that such trust is not shared equally on all parts. Lady Navus, you are clearly sceptical that the actions of Nand-" he waved at Kambuzir pre-emptively -" whether or not such fears are justified or borne out by evidence - will drag Ambrose into a war not of its making. But that is not the way of the League. We take collective responsibility, and likewise we do not, as a rule, take action on any matter of importance without consulting our partners. If Ambrose finds itself at war with the Aeldir, it shall to all intents and purposes be a war to which Ambrose has consented. Unless, of course, it is an unprovoked war of aggression by the Aeldir, or one supposedly justified by some flimsy and idiosyncratic fig leaf, as is their usual modus operandi, and it is this which I believe concerns the king of Nand as much as anything.

"But there is also a danger in too much collective decision-making. If we do not trust one another, then each member must have a right of veto over any of the others' actions which might affect them. And in a coalition of the type you propose, with full military mutual defence and sharing of technologies, that would mean none of us could move without consensus. Given how difficult we have found it to reach agreement so far, I cannot see that working as things stand.

"Perhaps then we should debate a more limited treaty which provides for certain elements of what you suggest without rushing into something for which we are not temperementally prepared. A more limited form of mutual defence, perhaps, covering only certain enemies or certain territories. Provision that certain actions by signatories will void the responsibility on the part of others to defend them. One that stops short of full sharing of research and development, especially with regard to weapons, so that the alliance becomes neither overly insular nor a sieve through which our secrets may easily pass to our enemies. It may not be what all of us had hoped for, but better to lower our sights and achieve our goals than set them impossibly high and achieve nothing."

I genuinely am a little perplexed at what it is Nand has done IC that makes them so obviously hostile to the Aeldir. Other than the interrogation of Lady Spring and the sealing of the borders to stop their spies getting in after the Farbensa Court - an event to which some Aeldir were nevertheless invited! - I think almost every negative comment I've made about them has been in an OOC context, and/or in the private context of League internal discussions.

[HalfTangible]

*shrug* I didn't think it was a secret that Nand's hostile to the Aeldir, and Primus is crystal clear that Nand hates them.

Lady Navus sighed. The anger had drained away, and now she just seemed tired. "'Certain enemies' that so far consist of two powers: the Aeldir, who the High Queen does not consider a threat, and the Sphere, who you don't." She muttered. "Why did I love this job again..."

"You are right that we will have to start small, however."

She'd ****ed up. Nand was probably thinking of conquering Primus for its own good now, if they weren't already. How had Roethye dealt with these people... It was like talking to someone who wanted to find out you were a monster.

[Aedilred]

*shrug* I didn't think it was a secret that Nand's hostile to the Aeldir, and Primus is crystal clear that Nand hates them.

Lady Navus sighed. The anger had drained away, and now she just seemed tired. "'Certain enemies' that so far consist of two powers: the Aeldir, who the High Queen does not consider a threat, and the Sphere, who you don't." She muttered. "Why did I love this job again..."

"You are right that we will have to start small, however."

She'd ****ed up. Nand was probably thinking of conquering Primus for its own good now, if they weren't already. How had Roethye dealt with these people... It was like talking to someone who wanted to find out you were a monster.

Vytautas frowned slightly. "Potential enemies, certainly. At present the League has no known enemies, or at least enemies possessed of armies in the conventional fashion. I do not believe Primus or Berrium does either, unless I am misinformed. An alliance to combat only our known enemies would be of questionable worth. It is true we do not consider the Sphere a threat, but that is for largely logistical reasons. They are too distant to cause the League harm, and therefore of no concern to us. You in turn do not consider the Aeldir a threat because it seems you trust to their good nature, although they are close enough to challenge us all should they so desire it, and the experiences of many former powers to our east suggests that they do not seek an excuse to invade, merely an opportunity.

"But these are not the only potential enemies we have, merely those which concern each of us most. The Grey Diedruch is adventurous and interventionist, and only a few miles from our coasts. The land formerly held by the Ninth Struggle since the end of the War of Prevaz Aggression may be collapsing into anarchy. The Crystal Union has an army even larger than that of the Aeldir. The kingdom of Koya can expand no further inland and may be turning its sights to the west. The Nifhel, or Kalamahar, may decide to march south, into the northern League and Berrium territories. Some of these are our friends, some are sufficiently small as to present no significant threat. Nevertheless we should not let our preoccupations with our most dangerous foes blind us to other sources of danger and violence. I suggest all of these should be included as potential foes against whom we would agree mutual defence."

"Hatred" might be a bit strong for the Nanda view of the Primal. They think they're boorish, barbaric, immoral, borderline intolerable and almost completely culturally incompatible, but they don't hate them per se. :smallwink:

I've been trying to keep the bulk of any anti-Aeldir opinion covert and most of it OOC. While Ardashir at least was fairly hawkish on the issue, I would doubt it's widely considered that they're massively hostile to the Aeldir to the point they've developed an international reputation for it. Obviously you can play your guys how you want but there might be a bit of (albeit understandable) OOC bleed there. Certainly I wouldn't expect the Aeldir themselves to think of Nand in that way. After all, Aeldir live in Nand; indeed, the current head of the Autumn Court is also a duke in Nand, and relations with him have been pretty good.

[HalfTangible]

Vytautas frowned slightly. "Potential enemies, certainly.Oh come on, you said certain, not me! I was quoting you!


"At present the League has no known enemies, or at least enemies possessed of armies in the conventional fashion. I do not believe Primus or Berrium does either, unless I am misinformed. An alliance to combat only our known enemies would be of questionable worth. It is true we do not consider the Sphere a threat, but that is for largely logistical reasons. They are too distant to cause the League harm, and therefore of no concern to us. You in turn do not consider the Aeldir a threat because it seems you trust to their good nature, although they are close enough to challenge us all should they so desire it, and the experiences of many former powers to our east suggests that they do not seek an excuse to invade, merely an opportunity.

"But these are not the only potential enemies we have, merely those which concern each of us most. The Grey Diedruch is adventurous and interventionist, and only a few miles from our coasts. The land formerly held by the Ninth Struggle since the end of the War of Prevaz Aggression may be collapsing into anarchy. The Crystal Union has an army even larger than that of the Aeldir. The kingdom of Koya can expand no further inland and may be turning its sights to the west. The Nifhel, or Kalamahar, may decide to march south, into the northern League and Berrium territories. Some of these are our friends, some are sufficiently small as to present no significant threat. Nevertheless we should not let our preoccupations with our most dangerous foes blind us to other sources of danger and violence. I suggest all of these should be included as potential foes against whom we would agree mutual defence."

"Hatred" might be a bit strong for the Nanda view of the Primal. They think they're boorish, barbaric, immoral, borderline intolerable and almost completely culturally incompatible, but they don't hate them per se. :smallwink:

I've been trying to keep the bulk of any anti-Aeldir opinion covert and most of it OOC. While Ardashir at least was fairly hawkish on the issue, I would doubt it's widely considered that they're massively hostile to the Aeldir to the point they've developed an international reputation for it. Obviously you can play your guys how you want but there might be a bit of (albeit understandable) OOC bleed there. Certainly I wouldn't expect the Aeldir themselves to think of Nand in that way. After all, Aeldir live in Nand; indeed, the current head of the Autumn Court is also a duke in Nand, and relations with him have been pretty good.Distance wouldn't stop the Primal from invading. It's only stopping us here because we can't conquer your lands as we move.

... well I suppose we could, but... bad idea.

"I don't consider the Aeldir a threat in part because of your contract with them to stay out of western affairs (which I'm worried will break before long), in part because they think of my people as useless barbarians (much as you do) and in part because they consider our land not worth the resources to conquer." She said wearily. "We've offered moonsilver, but they weren't interested, and that's the best we've got. Whether any of that's true or not is a different discussion I don't care to have.

"Trusting to their good nature" had nothing to do with it, really; anyone who tried that in politics was a rookie or an idiot. Lady Navus considered the Aeldir somewhere between friendly and neutral, owing largely to their apparent lack of interest in Primus. They had expanded far, sure, but they had shown no interest in Primus' actual territory. Moreover, the Aeldir had taken a more... diplomatic approach since the days of the Geshem and Luska.

She wasn't worried about the Aeldir because the Aeldir were arrogant sons of bitches, and believed the Primal nothing more than barbarians.

"That all seems reasonable enough." She said, trying to put some strength into her voice again. "Should we discuss technological support?"

Nand's first major interaction with Primus was to essentially call them stupid smelly evil hobos squatting in their own filth and publish a news story about it. Forgive me if I assumed hatred was a reasonable word to use :smalltongue:

Side note: did you know Lady Navus was supposed to be really REALLY good at diplomacy when I first wrote her into the game?

Because I wouldn't blame you if you just burst out laughing.

[Jerry]

"I had recently reached out to the Rose Courts in order to establish or re-establish friendly relations, rather. They did not deign to reply other than to send their proselytizers to our shores. I owe them no allegiance and they have not earned my love." Valerius grew silent, thinking briefly and anxious to prove his Kingdom's worth.

"I answer to nobody but my people, and to them I owe security. To win them this and your alliance, I can pledge to back the League in any war that my soldiers can readily attend. Which is what I would expect in return. As Lady Navus said, the more powerful the alliance, the less likely it is that we will need to use it. Though have no fear that my word is bond and extends to the continental Primus territories, the Queenlands notwithstanding." He spoke deliberately to underlie the seriousness of the matter. This alliance could be the difference between his Kingdom's lingering prosperity or slow integration against their will unto other powers.

[PepperP.]

Baram listened to Valerius's concerns seriously before he addressed his fellow King,

"I understand your concerns and myself believe that allying the polities of our continent is paramount to the security and continued freedom of all of our peoples." He glanced at Kambuzir, aware that he and his father had been preaching this belief to the Nanda monarchy as long as they had been preaching their warnings of the Aeldir and a wry smile curved his lips. He stood and whispered something to Pedyr who procured a rolled skin from one of the aides and handed it to his Protos. He stood between Valerius and Bradford, leaning over the table and unrolled the skin which was a large map of the known world. He marked Berrium's holdings with his fingertips,

"We would be unable to help if this island came under attack." He pointed to an isle of the coast off Berrium's new eastern borders.

"This holding concerns me." He pointed to the far north which was known to be the territory of the great barbarians.

"I'm not sure it would be worth provoking the barbarians ire to maintain it if it came under attack, though that is entirely up to you, of course." Baram traced from Berrium's eastern most continental holding, their capital Centrata down to Sasanand,

"I don't think your ships could sail swiftly enough upon an attack to respond to anything south-west of here." He tapped the Nanda capital.

"Kam, what do you think?" He turned to the Nand King and motioned him over with his head, deferring to the man's martial and logistical knowledge.

[Aedilred]

Kambuzir looked at Baram's assessment of the situation and gave a nod.

"Broadly speaking, I agree. Primus's colonies in Pavos are clearly indefensible, and Berrium's island colony in the far west cannot be reached by the League's navy. Our troops could make the journey overland from Niebisk if they reprovisined in the former Jade Coalition lands, but they would still be reliant on Berrium naval transport once they arrived, and so defence of this territory might have to be determined once the precise facts of an invasion were known."

He drew a line with his finger around the effective extent of their combined continental territories. "This is, I think, the area with which we can principally operate. All of us should be able to mobilise troops anywhere within this area with only minimal logistical difficulties." He glanced up towards Lady Navus. "However in the spirit of the reasons we were apparently assembled here, we can perhaps do better than promising simply to defend our existing territories if attacked. I propose anything within the line I have just marked - roughly speaking - should be considered under our protection and we should agree to joint defence of it should it come under attack, even if they do not recognise our jurisdiction as yet. This would prevent ambitious foreign powers gaining a foothold on our doorsteps. In fact we could extend our sway yet further -" he drew another line, even more expansive - "once details of these regions are known. Agreeing on this now would also assist us in maintaining this arrangement without having to reconvene the next time any of us expands our holdings.

"There are some further exceptions I would add, before we proceed too much further. Firstly, Nanda troops cannot survive underground and so I would ask they are exempted from any obligation to defend them. Of course it is unlikely any such regions would come under attack but all the same it is a noteworthy exception. Non-Nanda regiments in the Grand Army and of the League would of course remain available. The Berrium navy has a limited range and so, as the Protos said, should probably be excused operation in this quarter -" he drew a separate area within the first, covering the sea to the south of the League - "unless of course they decide otherwise at the time. Having said that..." He paused for a moment.

"It is important to recognise that war is rarely a clear-cut business with one side obviously an aggressor and the other side undoubtedly a victim. Equally, often the best form of defence is a strong offence, to engage the enemy on their own turf and make them suffer the inevitable consequences of war, rather than allowing one's own lands to be ravaged. So while I would not expect the Berrium navy to operate in this area, I think if war did break out and there were regions available for the navy to counterattack which they could reach, it would not be unreasonable to ask them to do so. Similarly, there is an argument to be made that this pact should be one of unconditional mutual defence: that should any of our regions come under attack the others will respond, irrespective of who began the war which resulted in the attack."

"I think it is also paramount that whatever agreement we reach here today takes full precedence over and above any existing treaties or diplomatic agreements, save those that already exist between present parties, of course. There is no point creating such an alliance if there is any doubt over whether anyone will respond when called upon. Exemption from the conditions of mutual defence should only be permitted where one's own lands are directly under attack at the time and troops cannot be spared to defend the others. I believe I am correct in saying that such an arrangement would not conflict with any of the League's current treaties.

"That is not to say that parties in this room should not be held to account, and if one of us is found to have fraudulently led the others into a war in nobody's interest and cost their soldiers lives and their treasuries money then they may pay a price for that thereafter if the war is lost. But the presumption should be that all our conflicts within the described area are legitimate and should be acted upon immediately, without having to hold inquests and trials which could delay or impede an effective military response. Unless, of course, there are any exceptions to that policy which we can agree upon now and which could be quickly and certainly determined in the event of war."

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/athelassan/Empire/Coalition%20Borders.png

Red - Default area of protection
Purple - Area of potential expansion pending details of regions there.
Blue - Berrium's island holding (situation dependent)
Green - Area of Berrium naval exemption
Not marked - Underground areas (proposed Nanda troop exemption, since they can't function in the dark)

[BladeofObliviom]

"I don't like the idea of an exception made for the Sunisle and the White Isles." Shou grumbles, pointing out the two regions in question (29 and 30). "Those two are defensible, but unlike most are not protected by treaty from potential Aeldir aggression." He frowns. "But...I suppose Berrium's Navy is not nearly all the force we can muster. If the Dandric Captains cannot take their fleets so far...so be it. The Bearers of Marque from the South Sea Company will simply have to redouble their efforts."

[HalfTangible]

Lady Navus was quiet as the monarchs around her set up ideas and plans for an eventual attack. She would probably not get the technological support that Primus probably needed, but at least this meeting hadn't been a waste of time.

"Primus will defend the Kingdom of Berrium however it can." She said finally. "You have no need to worry about that, Valerius."

"Primus armies can reach most of your territories for defense purposes by routing through Colonia, if need be." She tapped her finger on the map to the southern tip of league territory*. "Here, however, is where our forces will run low on supplies, and I would like our warriors to avoid fighting there if we can, at least until we come up with better ways to manage our supply lines. If you require defense of your islands, we will also require naval transport; none of Primus' ships are on this side of the world or can be supported for a protracted campaign."

She turned to look at Shou. "'Tis true, the Dandric Captains cannot reasonably reach these islands in time. Fortunately, troops are not the only way to fight a war." She continued, smirking. "If an enemy chooses to engage the League, we can hamper them by fostering dissident elements in their kingdoms. It is difficult to prosecute a war abroad when a rebellion rises in your home. The Aeldir in particular have many peoples under their control, many of whom resent it."

"It's something Primus has been... interested in, since our war with the Pavos."

*164, and possibly 163. It depends on whether you can go from 44A to 41 or not.

EDIT: QB says we can, but we'd have to march through the temple.
EDIT2: Actually, if I go through the desert I can make it there easily. So... 164 is pretty much the only territory I can see that would cause me losses

[Jerry]

Bradford smirked across the Ambrosian King's back at Valerius. Valerius ignored his companion and the shirtless King and studied the map carefully. He had to admit that perhaps his far eastern isle holding had been a bit too ambitious a conquest, seeing as how it was so poorly defensible. Even so, the Primal ambassador's assertion, and even more, the Provinces seeming disposition towards an agreement heartened him and he could feel some tension relieved from his shoulders.

"I would readily agree to these terms of defense, and with faith." Valerius was well aware that any agreement they might make today would be in his benefit, and he took no issue with the one proposed.

"Though I do wonder if there is someway to discourage further unwanted missionary quests from the Aeldir without doing them an undue insult. Or indeed any unwanted potential conversions." Valerius looked from Baram's chest, which he hadn't realized he was looking until he stopped speaking to the man's face and over to Lady Navus.

[HalfTangible]

Lady Navus frowned and placed a hand on her chin.

"... When I said that the Speakers had not attempted to come into our lands," She said slowly, "I did not mean that the Aeldir did not want to send Speakers. Lord Winter recently expressed a desire to create converts in Primal lands."

"We do not care what the citizens worship, so long as they give their loyalty to the Imperium first." She looked to the King. "Correct me if I'm wrong, but your citizens are still hostile to the Aeldir, owing to your past... shall we say... issues with trade."

She held up a finger. "You could play that angle; your citizens will be openly hostile to the idea of even allowing the Winter Court into your lands. However, we've had a spring girl in Primus for 40 years now."

"It's unlikely that we can turn them away entirely without a perceived insult, but High Queen Phelnia is open to the idea of Old God influence in these lands. We can set something up for them in Tertius, maybe give the Alphas there something to rally with against us." She mused. "Or we could offer Quartus, play up our conflict with the Daenites and these new conversions by the Doctrine..."

She shook herself. "Point is, send them our way. We'll handle it."

[Jerry]

"I can not say whether the supposed hostilities go both ways, as since I said previously, they did not deign to reply to my diplomatic outreach attempt." Valerius was clearly still annoyed by this perceived slight by the Aeldir.

"If they can not be bothered to engage in conversation, I can not be bothered to engage in conversion." His tone was haughty as his countenance darkened.

"That Primus would welcome them does little to ease my agitation upon the matter, wouldn't it spur them to grow ever bolder upon our continent? As to the Daen which you disposed so readily, I would have rather you sent them to their fellows in the Mercivale. There has been recent talk that Dandria and Daen are likely the same Goddess, extolling the same virtues of nurturing femininity and having such similar names though we are far from the Temple of Daen in the South-East. I am certainly no great scholar nor theologian and take little personal investment in the matter." He seemed to only have an opinion on religion when it was called to keep it out of his lands, rather than welcome it in.

[HalfTangible]

Lady Navus raised an eyebrow. "The Grand Church's goal was to make their faith the official religion of the Imperium and thereby make us their puppet." She pointed out. "I have very good reason not to trust them and I don't see why you would. The concept of Daen as the All-Mother is a recent phenomenon, begun in Avonlea and made canon relatively recently; before that, when Dandria was still around, Daen was male. Don't even get me started on the Prophetess Council, or how badly Avonlea suffered while they had no Conduit."

"You wanted a way to keep the Speakers out of your lands without them taking it as an insult. If you don't care how they feel, then don't. They have no right to enter your lands, tell them so, and if they do not respond that is their problem."

"Aleuta and Rhona were clear that the former wanted to reopen trade with Berrium. Whether Gwyndeth wants the same is... questionable. Primus may have to act as an intermediary again."

[Aedilred]

"If the Aeldir wish trade with Berrium, it is surely for them to make the approach, and for them to accept concessions in exchange for what they want," Kambuzir said, with an eyebrow raised. "I do not understand why Primus is so eager to act as spokesman for the Aeldir cause."

He glanced over at Baram as if inviting him to contradict him. "Our treaty with the Aeldir provides that there will be no claim of ownership of any land, or military or diplomatic intervention by the Aeldir, on the western continent, without discussion with and approval of the League. Incidentally, this includes matters relating to trade. Until now we have indulged an element of flexibility within this approach, such as the stationing of Spring Girls within western courts despite our certainty that they are engaged in espionage in addition to their apparent diplomatic function, one which is in itself belied by their status as agents of the Spring Court and not the Autumn. From where I stand however it is becoming apparent that either the Demesne is seeking collectively to violate the spirit of the treaty or that the Courts are at odds with one another. Either way it is more important than ever that we do not allow them a foothold in the western continent. Although matters of religion are not included in our treaty with them, it seems clear to me that the Speakers are the first wave - or the second, if the Spring Girls are counted - of an attempt to increase Aeldir influence on this continent and undermine the native rulers. There are no Aeldir on the mainland, and we have no need of their gods, so why have they marked out western lands for conversion if not as a prelude to subjugation? Any trade negotiations with them should take place in the full knowledge and expectation that trade will serve as a vector for that religious conversion.

"This, Lady Navus, is why I asked for full disclosure over the extent of Primus's relationship with the Aeldir. By all appearances they have made attempts to create inroads into a position where they have a position of influence over both your people and those of Berrium, yet you insist they are not a threat. You maintain an agent of the Aeldir intelligence services at your court. My questions are not hypothetical. If Primus has concluded a bilateral alliance with the Aeldir with respect to any of its continental territories, if the government of Primus has in any way been subverted by Aeldir influence - we are already at war."

He leaned forward, his eyes bright and wide. "That aside, we must recognise here and now that we do not need to kowtow to the Aeldir. We do not have to accept their condescension or their arrogance or their unreasonable, one-sided demands. If the Aeldir wish for something from any of us here, our first concern should be what benefit there is in it for us, not how it would benefit them, or what would give them least offence. For too long too much of the world has lived in fear of them and acceded to their every whim, held themselves to Aeldir standards of morality and diplomacy at the expense of their own interests and traditions. They would be a formidable foe, but with our forces combined it is we who hold the balance of power against them. Let us behave in a manner fitting to our actual station, and put any existential fear of them behind us, for we cannot afford to be mighty with the helpless and helpless with the great, just as we should not be lions on the battlefield and mice at the negotiating table."

He sat back and gave a slight smile. "Of course, the same could be said of any foreign power, but somehow it seems most relevant to our dealings with them."

[Jerry]

"I apologize, I was unaware the Church had an express interest in ventriloquism or that a handful of eccentrics leagues to the east warranted the extermination of hundreds of our own otherwise law-abiding citizens." He shrugged,

"You say the worship of the All-Mother is a recent development in Daenish theology, though it is clearly not within the lands of Avonlea or my own, regardless of what the Temple itself had preached previously. You do not know who is the misappropriator here, but the world has seen the power of the Goddess Daen, this is not in dispute." Even in the far west had the tales of Avonlea's curse had spread, and the later amelioration of said curse.

"But again, I reiterate, this bears no personal import to myself, other than to confirm in my mind that the Aeldir's religion, being wholly alien to my people and indeed to humankind itself, and shall not gain a foothold upon my shores." He was adamant in his obstinacy on the matter which was at the forefront of his mind.

"I do not require intermediacy, thank you. Indeed, though it saved my realm some measure of difficulty in the past, I shall contact the Rose Demesne directly should the need arise in the future, and in fact will draft a letter of abstention to the Winter Court immediately upon my arrival back in Berrium. I neither require their trade goods nor your involvement of the Spring girls on the matter, again, thank you for the offer." It was clear from his tone he did not hold the keeping of Spring girls entirely in favor, though neither was it his business to scold them on it. He only wished for the ratification of this agreement to all of their benefit, but it was clear that there were certain points which they were sorely divided on and to their detriment.

[HalfTangible]

"I apologize, I was unaware the Church had an express interest in ventriloquism or that a handful of eccentrics leagues to the east warranted the extermination of hundreds of our own otherwise law-abiding citizens." He shrugged,

"You say the worship of the All-Mother is a recent development in Daenish theology, though it is clearly not within the lands of Avonlea or my own, regardless of what the Temple itself had preached previously. You do not know who is the misappropriator here, but the world has seen the power of the Goddess Daen, this is not in dispute." Even in the far west had the tales of Avonlea's curse had spread, and the later amelioration of said curse.

"But again, I reiterate, this bears no personal import to myself, other than to confirm in my mind that the Aeldir's religion, being wholly alien to my people and indeed to humankind itself, and shall not gain a foothold upon my shores." He was adamant in his obstinacy on the matter which was at the forefront of his mind.

"I do not require intermediacy, thank you. Indeed, though it saved my realm some measure of difficulty in the past, I shall contact the Rose Demesne directly should the need arise in the future, and in fact will draft a letter of abstention to the Winter Court immediately upon my arrival back in Berrium. I neither require their trade goods nor your involvement of the Spring girls on the matter, again, thank you for the offer." It was clear from his tone he did not hold the keeping of Spring girls entirely in favor, though neither was it his business to scold them on it. He only wished for the ratification of this agreement to all of their benefit, but it was clear that there were certain points which they were sorely divided on and to their detriment.Lady Navus rolled her eyes. "Yes. Her power over a realm that had worshiped her for decades, if not centuries. And that power didn't seem to be of benefit to Avonlea, did it? A council that subverted the Queen's will, lack of a conduit (not even worship, just a religious office) met with starvation, disease, panic and infertility."

"Dandria is not necessarily Daen." She pointed out. "Be very careful which ideas you accept so readily, Valerius. The Grand Church has shown it cannot be trusted."

Rikadime nodded. "Very well. The offer remains open, for what it's worth."


"If the Aeldir wish trade with Berrium, it is surely for them to make the approach, and for them to accept concessions in exchange for what they want," Kambuzir said, with an eyebrow raised. "I do not understand why Primus is so eager to act as spokesman for the Aeldir cause."

He glanced over at Baram as if inviting him to contradict him. "Our treaty with the Aeldir provides that there will be no claim of ownership of any land, or military or diplomatic intervention by the Aeldir, on the western continent, without discussion with and approval of the League. Incidentally, this includes matters relating to trade. Until now we have indulged an element of flexibility within this approach, such as the stationing of Spring Girls within western courts despite our certainty that they are engaged in espionage in addition to their apparent diplomatic function, one which is in itself belied by their status as agents of the Spring Court and not the Autumn. From where I stand however it is becoming apparent that either the Demesne is seeking collectively to violate the spirit of the treaty or that the Courts are at odds with one another. Either way it is more important than ever that we do not allow them a foothold in the western continent. Although matters of religion are not included in our treaty with them, it seems clear to me that the Speakers are the first wave - or the second, if the Spring Girls are counted - of an attempt to increase Aeldir influence on this continent and undermine the native rulers. There are no Aeldir on the mainland, and we have no need of their gods, so why have they marked out western lands for conversion if not as a prelude to subjugation? Any trade negotiations with them should take place in the full knowledge and expectation that trade will serve as a vector for that religious conversion.

"This, Lady Navus, is why I asked for full disclosure over the extent of Primus's relationship with the Aeldir. By all appearances they have made attempts to create inroads into a position where they have a position of influence over both your people and those of Berrium, yet you insist they are not a threat. You maintain an agent of the Aeldir intelligence services at your court. My questions are not hypothetical. If Primus has concluded a bilateral alliance with the Aeldir with respect to any of its continental territories, if the government of Primus has in any way been subverted by Aeldir influence - we are already at war."

He leaned forward, his eyes bright and wide. "That aside, we must recognise here and now that we do not need to kowtow to the Aeldir. We do not have to accept their condescension or their arrogance or their unreasonable, one-sided demands. If the Aeldir wish for something from any of us here, our first concern should be what benefit there is in it for us, not how it would benefit them, or what would give them least offence. For too long too much of the world has lived in fear of them and acceded to their every whim, held themselves to Aeldir standards of morality and diplomacy at the expense of their own interests and traditions. They would be a formidable foe, but with our forces combined it is we who hold the balance of power against them. Let us behave in a manner fitting to our actual station, and put any existential fear of them behind us, for we cannot afford to be mighty with the helpless and helpless with the great, just as we should not be lions on the battlefield and mice at the negotiating table."

He sat back and gave a slight smile. "Of course, the same could be said of any foreign power, but somehow it seems most relevant to our dealings with them."

"No, of course not. Primus need not kowtow to the Aeldir, just to you." Lady Navus glared at Kambuzir. There was Nandir hypocrisy again. "If trade is only an in-road to you then why do you trade with the Aeldir on the Crystal Rose route? You're not going to reap the benefits of a relationship while whining about how others want it too. We understand the risks involved but we will trade with the Aeldir if we damn well please."

"We host a Spring Girl, yes, because despite your insistence that our court has been infiltrated and subverted, a friendly relationship with the Aeldir has benefited us."

"I only suggested that the Kingdom send Speakers our way because the good king said he wished to avoid his actions coming across as an insult. We don't care if he turns them away."

"To answer your paranoia, no, the Aeldir do not have an alliance with Primus. The idea of a mutual defense pact - let alone an actual alliance - disgusts them." Her eyes narrowed. "And if you think Primus wanted such an alliance, you are doing a very poor job of convincing me that such would be any worse than an alliance with Nand. Given that I put together this meeting specifically to get an alliance with the League, that is quite impressive."

"I suggest we return to the subject of this coalition. It's evident we're not going to agree on who it's being formed to combat, but we agree that it should be formed to combat someone, yes?"

[Aedilred]

"If this is how you speak to those you court as allies, I cannot imagine what a declaration of war from Primus would look like," Kambuzir said. "The Grand Church of Daen comprises a goat-shed completely surrounded by and under the thrall of the Rose Demesne. There are tens of thousands of Daenists in the west including in the kingdom of Berrium who have lived here peacefully for generations. Yet it seems Primus views Daen as a deadly threat while acting as apologists for the Aeldir themselves. Given that the Aeldir are the only threat the League faces against which it seems Primus is willing to contribute troops, one could be forgiven for thinking we were here to be talked out of an alliance, not into one."

He stood. "This is a waste of my time. It is clear Primus has no interest in anything I have to contribute to this discussion, and I will not continue to sit here and be insulted."

He turned and walked out of the room, followed by his Braal bodyguards and the somewhat surprised Jojone representative.

[PepperP.]

Baram placed his hand upon the Berrium King's shoulder. Tempers were rising, though Valerius was right, to their detriment. He watched Kam storm out of the room with a sigh. As close as their realms had been for multiple generations now, how couldn't help to think that his position as Diplomat was made harder by it, though he was not wholly in disagreement with the salient points that he had managed to make before he left.

"You can not accuse my fellow of paranoia without admitting that thousands around the world worship the Mother Daen without their governments falling thrall to some imagined evil, my own included. And to suggest otherwise is either folly, or evidence of a weak mind prone to either suggestion or fear. I do not believe Crudice weak or afraid, though as a whole perhaps you are a people prone to rashness, as my departed compatriot is." Baram motioned to the door through which the Nand King had just exited.

"I of all people would not tell you to not love the Aeldir that you are close to. I stand in good faith with the Lord of Winter and raise his child as my own. But to love an individual is not to love the whole, and to be wary of a people as a whole who have razed kingdoms to the ground is only prudent. This is what we require of you Lady Navus, not "kowtowing" as you say, only prudence, as when we sign this agreement, and I assure you it is in my every intention to sign an agreement today, it is the fate of all collected here that will depend upon that prudence and no longer only Primus." He looked about the room earnestly and back to Navus.

"Let us stop the reactionary diatribes and resume negotiations." His tone was reasonable, though he worried of the continued and growing venom between Primus and Berrium and felt that continuing it would mean disaster for the associates involved.

[HalfTangible]

"If this is how you speak to those you court as allies, I cannot imagine what a declaration of war from Primus would look like," Kambuzir said. "The Grand Church of Daen comprises a goat-shed completely surrounded by and under the thrall of the Rose Demesne. There are tens of thousands of Daenists in the west including in the kingdom of Berrium who have lived here peacefully for generations. Yet it seems Primus views Daen as a deadly threat while acting as apologists for the Aeldir themselves. Given that the Aeldir are the only threat the League faces against which it seems Primus is willing to contribute troops, one could be forgiven for thinking we were here to be talked out of an alliance, not into one.""You're right." She said calmly. "This isn't how I treat potential allies." Her eyes narrowed. "But then, you're not acting like a potential ally."

"As far as I can tell you came here with the sole intent to take offense, as you have in every interaction with Primus." Lady Navus growled, ice in her voice. "I have offered to aid you in a war Primus has no need to wage that I have no doubt whatsoever you will start. And in exchange, you have dismissed my concerns about our western enemies as the ramblings of a child, stated outright that I am an apologist to the Aeldir (despite my lack of apology) and accused me of conspiracy against you."

"I don't know what you think Primus is, but it definitely isn't your ally if you think any of that is reasonable."


He stood. "This is a waste of my time. It is clear Primus has no interest in anything I have to contribute to this discussion, and I will not continue to sit here and be insulted."

He turned and walked out of the room, followed by his Braal bodyguards and the somewhat surprised Jojone representative.

"Very well." Lady Navus waved one hand to the guards, rolling her eyes. "Escort the King out of the Imperium, boys. And inform Nand's diplomat* that their king no longer desires an ear in the Imperial court."

*From the grand tournament


Baram placed his hand upon the Berrium King's shoulder. Tempers were rising, though Valerius was right, to their detriment. He watched Kam storm out of the room with a sigh. As close as their realms had been for multiple generations now, how couldn't help to think that his position as Diplomat was made harder by it, though he was not wholly in disagreement with the salient points that he had managed to make before he left.

"You can not accuse my fellow of paranoia without admitting that thousands around the world worship the Mother Daen without their governments falling thrall to some imagined evil, my own included. And to suggest otherwise is either folly, or evidence of a weak mind prone to either suggestion or fear. I do not believe Crudice weak or afraid, though as a whole perhaps you are a people prone to rashness, as my departed compatriot is." Baram motioned to the door through which the Nand King had just exited.

"I of all people would not tell you to not love the Aeldir that you are close to. I stand in good faith with the Lord of Winter and raise his child as my own. But to love an individual is not to love the whole, and to be wary of a people as a whole who have razed kingdoms to the ground is only prudent. This is what we require of you Lady Navus, not "kowtowing" as you say, only prudence, as when we sign this agreement, and I assure you it is in my every intention to sign an agreement today, it is the fate of all collected here that will depend upon that prudence and no longer only Primus." He looked about the room earnestly and back to Navus.

"Let us stop the reactionary diatribes and resume negotiations." His tone was reasonable, though he worried of the continued and growing venom between Primus and Berrium and felt that continuing it would mean disaster for the associates involved.Lady Navus looked away. "Rash would be a fair judgement, I think, though in this case I question its validity. The Prophetess Council was not imagined, nor were the missionaries' intent to make Daen the state religion of the Imperium."

"I said 'the Grand Church' is untrustworthy." She said coolly. "I didn't say Daen. If Dandria and Daen are one and the same, that's all fine and good, but I hope Valerius is getting that information himself and not from the Church."

Lady Navus blinked. "'Prudence'? I have already said Primus will defend the League and Ambrose if they come under assault from the Aeldir, and Berrium has always had our blades. Nand pushed for more. So yes, Kambuzir wanted me to kowtow."

"But as you said, back to negotiation." She put a finger on the map. "Nand's proposed map for military defense, as already stated, sits well with Primus. Technology seems off the table at this point. It seems topical to turn our thoughts to matters of faith."

"I don't think banning a religion from the entire coalition will do any of us any good, even the Old Gods. We simply have too many branching opinions on what religions are acceptable and which are not. However, should unwanted conversions come to a member," She glanced at Valerius, "I would propose a united front against those conversions. The leaders of their faith may very well take it as an insult. But the sovereignty of Berrium, Primus and the League are more important than their feelings."

[PepperP.]

Baram stared blankly as Lady Navus insisted upon continuing to speak against his comrade who was no longer even present. He fought against shaking his head in consternation at such obstinate hypocrisy. Whether willful or accidental he could not say, though just as he could not say which might be worse. He withheld a sigh, though the furrow of his brow belied his concentration.

"I assure you Lady Navus, if it was the League's intent to subjugate her allies, I would not be present, nor would my fellows." He spoke slowly and deliberately in what he hoped was a reassuring voice. Privately he thought to himself that even if they wished it, taking on Primus as a vassal would be likely be more trouble than it was worth, if this was their best foray into diplomatic endeavors. The fact that the Nanda ambassador was being expelled for their own diplomat offending the Nand King was clearly indicative of their faulty logic and the reason they had entered into difficulties in the first place. He collected his thoughts and with some effort maintained his calm.

"Our interests are aligned in maintaining the west as a free continent. I think as far as unwanted conversions go, we are willing to stand by Berrium if they wish to ban the Old Gods, regardless of reaction from Lord Morrig and I agree a united front is the best was to deter future conversions." Baram realized that his hand had remained clasped upon the King's shoulder and had been squeezing it in his irritation with the proceedings. He released his grip and patted his shoulder in apology.

[HalfTangible]

Baram stared blankly as Lady Navus insisted upon continuing to speak against his comrade who was no longer even present. He fought against shaking his head in consternation at such obstinate hypocrisy. Whether willful or accidental he could not say, though just as he could not say which might be worse. He withheld a sigh, though the furrow of his brow belied his concentration.

"I assure you Lady Navus, if it was the League's intent to subjugate her allies, I would not be present, nor would my fellows." He spoke slowly and deliberately in what he hoped was a reassuring voice. Privately he thought to himself that even if they wished it, taking on Primus as a vassal would be likely be more trouble than it was worth, if this was their best foray into diplomatic endeavors. The fact that the Nanda ambassador was being expelled for their own diplomat offending the Nand King was clearly indicative of their faulty logic and the reason they had entered into difficulties in the first place. He collected his thoughts and with some effort maintained his calm.

"Our interests are aligned in maintaining the west as a free continent. I think as far as unwanted conversions go, we are willing to stand by Berrium if they wish to ban the Old Gods, regardless of reaction from Lord Morrig and I agree a united front is the best was to deter future conversions." Baram realized that his hand had remained clasped upon the King's shoulder and had been squeezing it in his irritation with the proceedings. He released his grip and patted his shoulder in apology.Lady Navus held her tongue. It didn't matter if Ambrose wasn't interested in subjugation, it was clear that Nand was. They didn't want diplomacy with Primus, fine, they wouldn't get any and good riddance to them. Their ambassador was hardly any better than the King and their entire society was built on hypocrisy in any case.

"Agreed." Rikadime steepled her fingers. Ambrose had come in good faith, at least, and she would respect that as much as possible. "We will resist any conversions on the western continent as a group, should it be against the wishes of our lands' respective rulers. Any other issues?"

[BladeofObliviom]

Shou's eyes narrow as the argument between King Kambuzir and Lady Navus explodes and the former storms out, and a disapproving frown stretches across his face as Navus orders that the Nanda Ambassador leave as well. He says nothing, but the glare he shows Lady Navus would send the more superstitious amongst the Kroznat people scurrying for cover against the wrath of the Evil Eye.

"I have no objections to the terms laid out by Ambrose so far.", the man almost spits. "But I will not sign a treaty regarding our own levies that has not been signed by the League's Marshal. I have no such power, and if the diplomat sent by Primus and the Marshal of the League cannot pretend to tolerate one another for but an hour, I have little faith that a sheet of parchment will turn those rattled swords to held hands."

[HalfTangible]

Shou's eyes narrow as the argument between King Kambuzir and Lady Navus explodes and the former storms out, and a disapproving frown stretches across his face as Navus orders that the Nanda Ambassador leave as well. He says nothing, but the glare he shows Lady Navus would send the more superstitious amongst the Kroznat people scurrying for cover against the wrath of the Evil Eye.

"I have no objections to the terms laid out by Ambrose so far.", the man almost spits. "But I will not sign a treaty regarding our own levies that has not been signed by the League's Marshal. I have no such power, and if the diplomat sent by Primus and the Marshal of the League cannot pretend to tolerate one another for but an hour, I have little faith that a sheet of parchment will turn those rattled swords to held hands."The Nanda ambassador from the grand tournament is still in Valkyrie.

Rikadime didn't even flinch. If this man had any idea what she'd seen...

"Nand and Primus do not have to like each other to work together, only share a common interest. You are correct that if this deal is not signed by your marshal it is useless," She turned back to Baram. "But Kambuzir does not have to sign it immediately. He'll cool down. And if not... well, then we've lost nothing but a few minutes' time to hammer out any final details."

"Also, in all likelihood, I will be fired for this, so..." She shrugged. "There'll be no one rattling and no one to rattle Nand's blades at."

[Jerry]

Valerius was struggling to temper the insult of this supposed diplomat openly rolling her eyes at him in mockery. He was surprised when Baram sought to silently ease him temper with his hand on his shoulder and flicked a grateful glance to the man. However inept her demeanor, Lady Navus was right that Primus had long pledged their support of Berrium. He tried to keep that in mind as the other powers sniped at each other. Ultimately the agreement would be between their realms, even if he must suffer the figurehead at present. At the topic of technological advancements, Valerius's interest was peaked. Could they not work out something to all of their interest?

"On the topic of technological advancements, might we not come to an agreement? I would not seek to gain more than I could offer in that vein, but an equal sharing cooperative might benefit us all." Perhaps he was stretching things a bit considering the current climate of the room, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

[PepperP.]

"Owing to the current state of my Marshal, I could not guarantee the exchange of the secrets of war, no. Though I may be prepared to negotiate the exchange of other advancements, if that suits you. And I would certainly entertain any one on one offers, in lieu of any blanket deals." Baram spoke to the room, though his eyes were on the Berrium King, as it had been him who had asked.

[BladeofObliviom]

"Also, in all likelihood, I will be fired for this, so..." She shrugged. "There'll be no one rattling and no one to rattle Nand's blades at."

"There are always more blades to rattle.", Shou mumbles morosely. "If we are to be fighting side by side, we will need to tolerate each other regardless, lest we inspire discord in the ranks. But I suppose that's in the hands of our Marshal and your Queen now. I will speak no more of this."


Meanwhile, as the discussion turns to technology on the other side of the table, a South Sea Grand Secretary speaks up from the seat previously occupied by Kambuzir. When did he get there? "If I may? If our armies are to be collaborating directly upon the battlefield, we should be able to make use of one another's specialized teams and resources where necessary. If Primus or Berrium requires Kontos Cavalry support, for example, it should not be a great challenge to call upon the ones already trained and equipped by the Kingdom of Nand, and it should not be too difficult to requisition a few Thunderbolts when needed.

As far as civic developments, the League has in the past traded such things generously, and as a representative of the Kroznat League Merchant's Collective I do not believe this policy is likely to change in the future, especially toward trustworthy allies."

[HalfTangible]

"There are always more blades to rattle.", Shou mumbles morosely. "If we are to be fighting side by side, we will need to tolerate each other regardless, lest we inspire discord in the ranks. But I suppose that's in the hands of our Marshal and your Queen now. I will speak no more of this."


Meanwhile, as the discussion turns to technology on the other side of the table, a South Sea Grand Secretary speaks up from the seat previously occupied by Kambuzir. When did he get there? "If I may? If our armies are to be collaborating directly upon the battlefield, we should be able to make use of one another's specialized teams and resources where necessary. If Primus or Berrium requires Kontos Cavalry support, for example, it should not be a great challenge to call upon the ones already trained and equipped by the Kingdom of Nand, and it should not be too difficult to requisition a few Thunderbolts when needed.

As far as civic developments, the League has in the past traded such things generously, and as a representative of the Kroznat League Merchant's Collective I do not believe this policy is likely to change in the future, especially toward trustworthy allies."Lady Navus rubbed her chin. "It would likely be more effective in the long run if we do make such trades, but given... recent outbursts, perhaps it's best we leave such matters off the table. You're correct. It would be effective enough to simply send such assets to each other as needed." She looked up. "It would also encourage clear communication between all powers present, which is vital if we're going to work together.

"Speaking of which, in regards to civil technology that we have not yet shared, Primus can offer the structure we created for a spy network. It's so far proven effective, and the League can get as much use out of it as we can, possibly even more." She glanced at Valerius. "The Kingdom's technological development has been slow, as I recall, though you said earlier that negotiations with the Truserchen were going well. You could, perhaps, gain greatly from them?"

[Jerry]

King Valerius relaxed, grateful for these reassurances though his face remained neutral lest he appear desperate.

"If that settles matters, all that is left is to have the documents drawn up it seems." Considering the great difficulty they had endured in reaching the conclusion, he was pleased with the outcome. He turned again to Baram,

"Will King Kambuzir be available for the ratification of the document?" He spoke apologetically, as though discussing an embarrassing relative.

[PepperP.]

Treaty of Ember City

The <titles of the rulers of Primus and Berrium> and the League of Allied Provinces, to wit, the Protos Archigos of the Ambrose Ascendancy, the Sun King of Nand, the Mirzahibs of Krozna and Graynik, the Meti of Llurikesh, the Lord President of the High Council of Puldine, the Interlugal of Teyra, the Council of Entar, the Swine King of Braal, the Undertaker of the White Isles, the Warden of the Crack'd Tower, the Matrons of Durvahavi and Rajendrahavi, the cities of Risse and Siht, the Governors of Zol and Bial, and the Kroznat South Sea Company in respect of all its territorial dominions, having this Day concluded a Treaty of amity and Commerce, for the reciprocal advantage of their Subjects and Citizens, and establishment of a Western Continental Coalition, have thought it necessary to take into consideration the means of strengthening those engagements and of rendering them useful to the safety and tranquility of all parties, the parties having resolved in the Case of War to join their Counsels and efforts against the Enterprises of their common Enemies, the respective Plenipotentiaries, impower'd to concert the Clauses & conditions proper to fulfil the said Intentions, have, after the most mature Deliberation, concluded and determined on the following Articles.

Article 1


The Contracting Parties mutually promise peace and friendship, and will enter into no Alliance or engagement directed against any one of the Contracting Parties, their territories, Subjects, possessions or dominions.
They engage to proceed to an exchange of ideas on political and economic Questions of a general nature which may arise, and they further promise one another mutual support within the limits of their own interests.


Article 2

If one, or two, of the Contracting Parties, with or without direct provocation on their part, should chance to be attacked and to be engaged in a War with one or more Foreign Powers non-signatory to the present Treaty, or to declare war of their own volition upon one or more Foreign Powers non-signatory to the present Treaty, the casus foederis will arise simultaneously for all the Contracting Parties.
The Contracting Parties shall each on its own Part, and in the manner it may judge most proper, make all the efforts in its Power, against their common Enemy, in order to attain the end proposed.


Article 3

None of the Contracting Parties shall be bound by this Treaty in respect of an attack on the Queenslands of Primus.
In the event of an Attack on the Island Colonies of Berrium in the north-western sea the contribution of the Contracting Parties shall be limited to that which can be reasonably supplied and transported through the efforts of the local navy of Berrium.
In the event of Attack on Sunisle or the White Isles, no imminent obligation shall fall upon the Navy of Berrium to provide immediate assistance and the Contracting Parties shall regulate by a particular Convention the quantity and kind of Succour to be furnished, and the Time and manner of its being brought into action.
In respect of the inferior logistical arrangements and provisions in place within the territories and military establishment of one of the Contracting Parties, the Army of the Primus Imperium shall be obliged by the terms of this Treaty to walk only so far as they may be arsed in order to defend the territories of their Sworn Allies and no farther.


Article 4

If the peace of any of the Contracting Parties should chance to be threatened under the circumstances foreseen by the preceding Articles, the Contracting Parties shall take counsel together in ample time as to the military measures to be taken with a view to eventual cooperation.
They engage henceforward, in all cases of common participation in a war, to conclude neither armistice, nor Truce nor Peace, nor treaty, except by common agreement among themselves and with the formal consent of the other Contracting Parties first obtain'd.


Article 5

The Contracting Parties agree to invite or admit other Powers who may have received injuries from Enemies of the Coalition to make common cause with them, and to accede to the present alliance, under such conditions as shall be freely agreed to and settled between all the Parties.


Article 6

The present Treaty shall remain in force during the space of ten years, dating from the day of the exchange of ratifications.


Article 7

The present Treaty shall be ratified on both sides and the Ratifications shall be exchanged in the space of six months, sooner if possible.



Done at Ember City, this ___ day of ___, in the year 140 of the Aenic Calendar

(Signatures)

If there's any changes you'd like made before we sign, please speak up now.

[HalfTangible]

to walk only so far as they may be arsed((Looks good for the most part))

((I dunno if it's just me but this phrase sticks out like a sore thumb buried in the rest of this thing's legalese. Can it be reworded?))

((I'd also suggest it give permission to move through each others' territories for the purposes of defense. Just so we don't need to list it as a non-action every round))

[PepperP.]

Treaty of Ember City

The High Queen of Primus, The King of Berrium and the League of Allied Provinces, to wit, the Protos Archigos of the Ambrose Ascendancy, the Sun King of Nand, the Mirzahibs of Krozna and Graynik, the Meti of Llurikesh, the Lord President of the High Council of Puldine, the Interlugal of Teyra, the Council of Entar, the Swine King of Braal, the Undertaker of the White Isles, the Warden of the Crack'd Tower, the Matrons of Durvahavi and Rajendrahavi, the cities of Risse and Siht, the Governors of Zol and Bial, and the Kroznat South Sea Company in respect of all its territorial dominions, having this Day concluded a Treaty of amity and Commerce, for the reciprocal advantage of their Subjects and Citizens, and establishment of a Western Continental Coalition, have thought it necessary to take into consideration the means of strengthening those engagements and of rendering them useful to the safety and tranquility of all parties, the parties having resolved in the Case of War to join their Counsels and efforts against the Enterprises of their common Enemies, the respective Plenipotentiaries, impower'd to concert the Clauses & conditions proper to fulfil the said Intentions, have, after the most mature Deliberation, concluded and determined on the following Articles.

Article 1


The Contracting Parties mutually promise peace and friendship, and will enter into no Alliance or engagement directed against any one of the Contracting Parties, their territories, Subjects, possessions or dominions.
They engage to proceed to an exchange of ideas on political and economic Questions of a general nature which may arise, and they further promise one another mutual support within the limits of their own interests.


Article 2

If one, or two, of the Contracting Parties, with or without direct provocation on their part, should chance to be attacked and to be engaged in a War with one or more Foreign Powers non-signatory to the present Treaty, or to declare war of their own volition upon one or more Foreign Powers non-signatory to the present Treaty, the casus foederis will arise simultaneously for all the Contracting Parties.
The Contracting Parties shall each on its own Part, and in the manner it may judge most proper, make all the efforts in its Power, against their common Enemy, in order to attain the end proposed.


Article 3

None of the Contracting Parties shall be bound by this Treaty in respect of an attack on the Queenslands of Primus.
In the event of an Attack on the Island Colonies of Berrium in the north-western sea the contribution of the Contracting Parties shall be limited to that which can be reasonably supplied and transported through the efforts of the local navy of Berrium.
In the event of Attack on Sunisle or the White Isles, no imminent obligation shall fall upon the Navy of Berrium to provide immediate assistance and the Contracting Parties shall regulate by a particular Convention the quantity and kind of Succour to be furnished, and the Time and manner of its being brought into action.
In respect of the inferior logistical arrangements and provisions in place within the territories and military establishment of one of the Contracting Parties, the Army of the Primus Imperium shall be obliged by the terms of this Treaty to walk only so far as they may not incur undue losses in order to defend the territories of their Sworn Allies and no farther.


Article 4

If the peace of any of the Contracting Parties should chance to be threatened under the circumstances foreseen by the preceding Articles, the Contracting Parties shall take counsel together in ample time as to the military measures to be taken with a view to eventual cooperation.
They engage henceforward, in all cases of common participation in a war, to conclude neither armistice, nor Truce nor Peace, nor treaty, except by common agreement among themselves and with the formal consent of the other Contracting Parties first obtain'd.


Article 5

The Contracting Parties agree to invite or admit other Powers who may have received injuries from Enemies of the Coalition to make common cause with them, and to accede to the present alliance, under such conditions as shall be freely agreed to and settled between all the Parties.


Article 6

The present Treaty shall remain in force during the space of ten years, dating from the day of the exchange of ratifications.


Article 7

The present Treaty shall be ratified on both sides and the Ratifications shall be exchanged in the space of six months, sooner if possible.

Article 8

The Contracting Parties hereby grant one another full access for men materiel supplies and other necessary instruments of warfare throughout their territories for the purposes of any and all military activities undertaken with reference to this Treaty, such access to persist until the termination of the Treaty



Done at Ember City, this ___ day of ___, in the year 140 of the Aenic Calendar

(Signatures)

If there's any changes you'd like made before we sign, please speak up now.

Amended Treaty. How's this?

[Jerry]

That's agreeable to me.

[HalfTangible]

((Good 'nuff for me.))

[Jerry]

Are we done with the role play then? Do we just add the treaty to our ic post?

[BladeofObliviom]

I mean, our characters can passive-aggressively snipe at each other some more if you want. :smalltongue:

Seems like it though.

[HalfTangible]

Are we done with the role play then? Do we just add the treaty to our ic post?


I mean, our characters can passive-aggressively snipe at each other some more if you want. :smalltongue:

Seems like it though.

I'm gonna link this treaty to my actions as well