Newbie question: The observant feat and "passive investigation".

[Kol Korran]

Hey all. While I've been a long time roleplayer, I just recently started trying out 5E. So far looks very promising! :smallamused:

An issue came in our game, concerning the Observant feat, which states "... You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores." Now, my question is- when does "Passive investigation" comes into play? I can see perception being passively used at times. But Investigation? It looked like a very "active" skill to me...

Can someone explain? Please? :smallbiggrin:

[Lombra]

Passive investigation is commonly treated as passive perception: so it's 10+INT mod.

I guess it could come up if you need to investigate a big area such as a castle, a dungeon or a village.

[the secret fire]

I think they put that wording in just to cover all their bases. 5th ed doesn't waste a lot of ink delimiting the use of skills, and pretty much leaves those decisions to the DM. I think with that feat, the writers just wanted to make sure that a character who takes it gets a "noticing stuff bonus" no matter which skill check the DM decides to call upon. As a DM, I actually give the +5 bonus for all perception and investigation rolls, in addition to the passive bonus. I feel that makes the feat both more useful (without being overpowered) and simpler to adjudicate from my perspective.

[Giant2005]

To me, Passive Investigation would be basically common sense. It is your ability to deduce things without giving it much thought.

[The-Magic-Sword]

What you discover when you do a general research or search- for example, when you don't know what you're looking for in a book you're reading.

Do research on how to destroy the macguffin in this ancient library, is an active investigation check.

Find out what I understand from having read a mysterious book I found, is a passive investigation check.

It also implies that you can sort of passively say search a crime scene- while holding a conversation with the detective currently investigating it.

[Once a Fool]

Hey all. While I've been a long time roleplayer, I just recently started trying out 5E. So far looks very promising! :smallamused:

An issue came in our game, concerning the Observant feat, which states "... You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores." Now, my question is- when does "Passive investigation" comes into play? I can see perception being passively used at times. But Investigation? It looked like a very "active" skill to me...

Can someone explain? Please? :smallbiggrin:

A "passive" ability check in 5e refers only to how the check is handled, not to the role of the skill itself. The DM has leeway to call for passive checks on any ability checks if desired.

Usually, this would be for the sake expedience. Sometimes, other reasons might apply, as well. For instance, I use passive checks for all "knowledge checks" (including investigation and perception) not only because it's quicker, but also because the game runs smoother when you give information to the players.

[Dalebert]

The most obvious way, it seems to me, is that they can find things with that score that they would have found if they rolled that while trying to investigate something. I don't just tell them details about the trap, for instance, but I will give them a sort of spidey-sense tingle about a chest or a certain wall or shelf. They have to then do a proper investigation to try and find a trap or a secret door or the book that's actually oddly vertical and to one side while the others are tilted because it's connected to a switch.

[Ninja_Prawn]

For me, passive investigation is what happens when there's no time limit so that the PC is certain to find everything they're likely* to find, e.g. searching a room that you just cleared, spending a week in the library, while active investigation is when they have to act fast and might miss something regardless of how observant they are, e.g. using an action to check for traps while moving around in a combat situation.

*Passive scores represent your average skill, so in the 'week in a library' example, that average factors in the fact that you might get bored at times and miss a few things that you could have potentially spotted with a lucky roll. The feat, of course, counteracts this effect specifically by raising your passive but not your active modifier.

[bid]

Now, my question is- when does "Passive investigation" comes into play? I can see perception being passively used at times. But Investigation? It looked like a very "active" skill to me...

Can someone explain? Please? :smallbiggrin:
When you shuffle through a desk without thinking, that's passive investigation. When you stop and think "now where would I hide it?", that a rolled skill check.

[gfishfunk]

It depends on what the investigation skill does in your campaign.

Observant is basically the Sherlock Holmes (or Shawn Spencer) feat.

- BIGGEST Searching for hidden doors/compartments: if you have a 18 passive investigation, you will likely catch something out of the corner of your eye while crossing the room and immediately deduce that there is a hidden mechanism for opening a slot in the door.

- Determining how a creature died.

- Figuring out how a mechanism works.

The trick with a PASSIVE check is that the DM needs to know (and normally confer) with your passive investigation score. Suppose the check is a normal difficulty (15 DC) and you have an 18 passive (nice!). The DM should not make you call for it, but should point it out immediately. If you only get the passive check when you point it out, it is not at all passive.

[Corran]

I have thought of it this way:
Say a detective-type of character with this feat is called into a crimescene to investigate it. He rolls actively the relevant checks (perception, investigation) that translate to him searching around the scene for some time, and assume he rolls low. Then, after some time has passed without having found anything important, he has a seat to catch his breath and collect his thoughts. Then, as he is about to give up, that is when his eye catches something, or when the idea of what happened hits him, ie that is when his passive investigation/perception comes online. Ofc that seems a cheap trick, since there is always the safety of falling back to a great passive score if you decide to roll and you roll poorly. I think it kind of balances out because there is a time and possibly rp element involved.

Alternatively, if I come to the conclusion after playtesting this, that it is too much to be able to both roll and fall back to a good passive score if you dont roll well, then it could be applied in a slightly different way. In this case the player decides if he wants to try his luck rolling, or if he wants to rely on his passive score instead. Relying on the passive score is certainly safer, but every now and then it might just not cut it, so it might be better to try your luck with the dice and hope for a roll above 15. And you can easily roleplay both approaches. If you roll actively you are just going around examining for clues. If you rely on the passive score, you just roleplay it like you need to stay alone in the room for a while, concentrate, perhaps even straighten out a wry painting (detective Monk style), and then everything becomes clear.

Anyway, that is just an example. Reading from the posts above, I would be ok if a DM let that apply to both active and passive skills, at least maybe in the case of investigation, but it all depends on how often the DM involves such skills. Havent seen this feat in game yet, so I am not sure how confident I will be in what I said above once I have some game experience with this feat in play.

[RickAllison]

In my eyes, active checks are an action while passive checks are a process. An active Investigation is trying to spot something while a trap is closing, or in the middle of combat. Passive Investigation is everything else.

Starting a ball rolling in combat would be an active Strength check (not Athletics, note), while pushing a minecart would be a passive Strength check (and so someone trying to stop it at any given time would contest it, which would probably be followed by active contests).

Sneaking around an art gallery would be a series of active checks because every moment has the potential to expose you to the guards as you flit in and out of total cover. Sneaking around a dense forest, by contrast, might be a passive check because there is a relatively average amount of cover throughout. Forest patrols would either be rolling or use the passive Perception as a contest. Now when the PC comes upon a clearing, he would have to roll in order to stay hidden while he is more exposed than normal.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Sneaking around a dense forest, by contrast, might be a passive check because there is a relatively average amount of cover throughout.

A good example of passive stealth is when you have a lot of time -say, several hours - to settle into an ambush. Once you've been in place for that length of time, you'll have gotten comfortable and figured out the best places to hide, but if you're not very stealthy (i.e. you have a low passive stealth score), you won't be able to conceal some of the evidence of your presence.

This is why it feels natural to use the goblins' passive stealth as the DC when your players "scan the bushes for monsters".

[Specter]

The way I see it, Perception is to see/hear things, while Investigation is to make sense of what you see. Seeing a statue in a dark corridor is Perception, figuring out that statue is a Gargoyle is Investigation.

[Rusvul]

See, I don't know. I've never much liked the passive skills mechanic. It works for Perception with regards to Stealth, but other than that, as a DM, I'd rather call for an active check in almost all circumstances. I don't like the idea of "you must be naturally this good at Investigating in order to figure out what happened here". Perhaps that's my 3.5 mindset.

If your table doesn't ever use passive skills for anything other than Perception, you might rework the feat to provide some other bonus instead of the +5 to passive Investigation ("You always get a Wisdom (Perception) check to find traps and secret doors, even if you weren't searching.") or even just a smaller or more situational bonus to active Investigation checks (+3 all the time or perhaps +5 when investigating some specific kind of circumstances).

[Plaguescarred]

Passive Investigation could come up to deduce the presence of a secret passage for exemple, where the DM doesn't want any die roll made.

[R.Shackleford]

To me, Passive Investigation would be basically common sense. It is your ability to deduce things without giving it much thought.


The best way I think to describe it would be that Sherlock is figuring out where something is hidden based on logic.

[Tanarii]

Per the PHB, passive checks are used:
1) when the player is doing something over and over again.
2) when the DM wants to keep the fact a check is being made secret from the player.

This applies to any check. So if the player is actively searching over a period of time (as they explore down a hallway or around a room for example), use passive investigation. And probably passive perception at the same time. If they're trying tracking, passive survival. Trying to figure out what the wizard towers various rune markings mean, passive arcana. Temple, passive religion. Weird plants throughout a forest passive nature. Undercurrents at a ball, passive insight. Swimming a long distance, passive athletics. Keeping balance while traversing an ice field, passive acrobatics.

Or any time those things need to be checked without the player knowing.

But the key here is passive doesn't mean 'passive', it means done repeatedly without having to check every round, or a secret single check.

(Passive perception has special call outs for its use, so DMs tend to use it more. )

[georgie_leech]

In other words, it's for those situations where DM's might be tempted to make check after check after check, which rather quickly makes success mathematically dubious.

[Kol Korran]

I don't have the DMG, but with all of these varied responses... it seems there is no clear understanding of what passive checks, and passive investigation in particular, even means... :smallfrown:

Most posts started by "I think/ in my opinion/ the ways I see it..." and similar phrases that seem to indicate opinion, not certain understanding.

Frustrating... to say the least... The DM isn't quite sure about it either... :smallsigh:

[Ninja_Prawn]

Most posts started by "I think/ in my opinion/ the ways I see it..." and similar phrases that seem to indicate opinion, not certain understanding.

That's part and parcel of 5e, I'm afraid. Each DM is expected to make their own rulings, treating the books as a general guide.

That said, I believe a lot of people in this thread are misinterpreting what the books say about passive checks. The key thing to remember is the 'doing something over and over again' part that Tanarii mentioned. If a player rolls, fails and then says "ok, I try again" and the action doesn't have a cost that could allow you to say "no, you can't do that again, you've failed", then it should be a passive check.

That's why I was talking about time pressure. If there's no time pressure, it almost always makes more sense to use passive checks. Because otherwise the players will just keep trying again.

[Squeeq]

I know that passive perception is used often for noticing people sneaking by via stealth - it's also useful when you want to get a sense of the party's checks without asking them to roll a check and thereby alerting them on a meta level to something going on. Passive investigation isn't given an example, but the active skill is used for determining what kinds of weapons caused wounds, where the weak points in a tunnel are, etc. Having a high passive perception would essentially have things like that be described outright, since you are (as the feat implies) an observant person.

Investigation checks are also used to see through illusions - however, because 10+skills is already higher than the 8+ that is used for spell saves, and that it is possible to add Expertise on top of your skills, having a passive investigation skill work as an automatic check against an illusion would essentially grant your character complete immunity to illusions from that point forwards, which seems a tad unbalanced.

[Reynaert]

I have thought of it this way:
Say a detective-type of character with this feat is called into a crimescene to investigate it. He rolls actively the relevant checks (perception, investigation) that translate to him searching around the scene for some time, and assume he rolls low.

If there's no time pressure, why wouldn't the investigator get to roll again and again and again? It just takes longer for him to finally find the evidence.

Passive perception is for when the investigator walks through a room with a clue, for example with the intention of going to another room where he wants to interrogate someone, but suddenly something catches his eye.

Giving the investigator only a single chance (or a few chances) is for when there is time pressure, or if it's a timed event that he might or might not notice. For example, he's interrogating someone and suddenly a dark shadow passes behind one of the windows. That's when you get the single perception roll to notice it or not.

[Aelyn]

I was thinking about this earlier, and I'd like to suggest another possible use of passive Investigation - House moments.

For those who haven't seen the show House, it's a modern-day medical drama whose main character is heavily based on Sherlock Holmes. One of the hallmarks of the show is the House moment, where he's stuck trying to figure out the disease of the week, but a passing comment in a conversation otherwise unrelated to that gives him the inspiration he needs. I think of that as passive investigation - it's that little bit of your mind always working to make the connections, even if you're not thinking about it.

In D&D terms, maybe the PCs have been hired to investigate the kidnapping of the lord's son, but haven't found any evidence of a struggle, so have been looking into things like teleportation, sleeping potions and so forth.

At some point over the next day or two, they're talking with a town guard about the watch patterns, and during the conversation the guard idly mentions that he's always had a spiritual side and had at one point considered going into the priesthood.

Suddenly the PC remembers that during the ball three weeks ago, the "kidnapped" noble was seen animatedly talking with a travelling paladin, who of course was dismissed as a suspect because he would never kidnap anyone. What if the son was just tired of the life he was living, and wanted to see the paladin's lifestyle first-hand? Sure enough, it transpires that the son ran away to travel with the paladin for few months, and is returned safe and sound.

That would be a House moment, and I would use a passive Investigation check for them to make that connection.

[Tanarii]

IMost posts started by "I think/ in my opinion/ the ways I see it..." and similar phrases that seem to indicate opinion, not certain understanding.
Mine wasn't. It was an explanation of the rules as written.

PHB p175, Passive Checks, in Chapter 7: Using Ablity Scores

[Tanarii]

That said, I believe a lot of people in this thread are misinterpreting what the books say about passive checks. The key thing to remember is the 'doing something over and over again' part that Tanarii mentioned. If a player rolls, fails and then says "ok, I try again" and the action doesn't have a cost that could allow you to say "no, you can't do that again, you've failed", then it should be a passive check.Not to be combative, but that's not really what I meant. The rules say it's the average result of a task performed repeatedly. It's not a task done repeatedly without time pressure until you succeed. It's a task thats been done repeatedly, with the need for a check occurring at a random point during that time period.

Passive isn't picking a lock over and over again without time pressure until you succeed, which is what you're implying. That'd be an automatic success if you can eventually make a check by rolling a 20 (ie the old term of 'Take 20).

Passive is being a guard on duty watching over and over again, actively looking for danger ever round (perception). A thief looking down the hall as he proceeds, trying to figure out where the traps are every round (investigation). A wizard / cleric checking the runes on the tower/temple walls, trying to tease out what they mean (arcana/religion). A sage searching the library looking for the name of the lich leading the undead army (history). Etc

And on the one given round when there is something to pass a check with, then the assumed average result of the check is 10+bonus. The moment the enemy appears, the trap is really there, the next runes that give the clue are in front of them, the name is listed ... that's when you assume they rolled a ten, instead of rolling each round and saying 'nothing to see here' each round regardless of the result.

OTOH if you meant it removes the 'I try again' in terms of the player not having to guess if there really was something there when there's nothing to see here ... yeah, it does have that effect too.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Not to be combative, but that's not really what I meant. The rules say it's the average result of a task performed repeatedly. It's not a task done repeatedly without time pressure until you succeed. It's a task thats been done repeatedly, with the need for a check occurring at a random point during that time period.

Passive isn't picking a lock over and over again without time pressure until you succeed, which is what you're implying. That'd be an automatic success if you can eventually make a check by rolling a 20 (ie the old term of 'Take 20).

Passive is being a guard on duty watching over and over again, actively looking for danger ever round (perception). A thief looking down the hall as he proceeds, trying to figure out where the traps are every round (investigation). A wizard / cleric checking the runes on the tower/temple walls, trying to tease out what they mean (arcana/religion). A sage searching the library looking for the name of the lich leading the undead army (history). Etc

And on the one given round when there is something to pass a check with, then the assumed average result of the check is 10+bonus. The moment the enemy appears, the trap is really there, the next runes that give the clue are in front of them, the name is listed ... that's when you assume they rolled a ten, instead of rolling each round and saying 'nothing to see here' each round regardless of the result.

OTOH if you meant it removes the 'I try again' in terms of the player not having to guess if there really was something there when there's nothing to see here ... yeah, it does have that effect too.

Well I apologise for misquoting you, though I would argue that the distinction you're making is too fine to really matter.

Like, take the lockpicking example. I wasn't meaning 'keep trying until you succeed' as being a thing - part of the reasoning for why it should be passive is to prevent it being an automatic success - rather, it's 'keep trying until either you succeed or you realise it's too difficult for you'. I think your logic supports that being a passive check, just as much as it does lookout duty.

[Vogonjeltz]

Can someone explain? Please?

It's putting two and two together when you're not trying to.

Passive Wisdom (Perception) is for noticing things without actively looking for them.
Passive Intelligence (Investigation) is for combining known information into a conclusion without actively stopping to think about it.

So, if an Intelligence (Investigation) check might reveal something, and the Intelligence (Investigation) score exceeds that, then you should inform that player of the thing pretty much automatically.

This comes into play with some traps, or maybe hidden details.

i.e. You come across a horse in the road lying on its side with arrows sticking from it. Perception would be to notice the arrows from some distance (or identify the horse as such) and Investigation might reveal that the arrows are all from the left side, indicating the ambush was sprung from that side of the road.

A character with sufficient investigation would automatically figure that out without taking the time to investigate (potentially averting a surprise ambush from the left by some goblins or whatever).

[Tanarii]

Well I apologise for misquoting you, though I would argue that the distinction you're making is too fine to really matter.

Like, take the lockpicking example. I wasn't meaning 'keep trying until you succeed' as being a thing - part of the reasoning for why it should be passive is to prevent it being an automatic success - rather, it's 'keep trying until either you succeed or you realise it's too difficult for you'. I think your logic supports that being a passive check, just as much as it does lookout duty.

I disagree it calls for a passive check. And it's not a fine distinction at all.

What you are describing is making the a check for the same task over and over again, with un-changing circumstances and no chance of failure. That's something that can done again and again until you get a 20 and succeed, or realize it's impossible.

Passive represents the average result of a task done over and over again, but with different circumstances applying, and determination of the check applying at the moment of a chance of failure applying. That's something where the attempts are being made over and over again, but the moment of the chance to fail or succeed only occurs once. At and that point in time, you assume that the average of result is a 10.

Very different conceptually and mathematically.

[Tanarii]

It's putting two and two together when you're not trying to.

Passive Wisdom (Perception) is for noticing things without actively looking for them.
Passive Intelligence (Investigation) is for combining known information into a conclusion without actively stopping to think about it.If you aren't actively looking you don't get to use you passive perception at all. PHB adventuring & traveling rules, chapter 8. Similarly PHB chapter 7 rules on passive checks say they are for tasks being done repeatedly. Not for tasks not being actively done at all.

[RickAllison]

I'm really not sure how one could passively lock pick. Well, maybe something like a changing lock, or changing a lock so another couldn't pick it. It would be odd, to say the least.

[jas61292]

The problem with passive checks is a problem with the terminology. While I love passive checks as a concept, the word choice was not the best. Are passive checks passive? Yes, for you the player, but not for your character. Passive checks are passive for the players, as in they are checks made without the players having to do anything (by which we mean roll dice). They are not passive for the character though.

Passive perception is not how good you are at perceiving things when you are not actively looking. It is a representation of how good you are at perception, on average, which the DM can use to check if you are aware of something when you are actively looking, without giving away the fact that there is something to perceive.

The uses of these checks were already pointed out by Tanarii, and it is very clear cut. However, terminology itself makes people assume things and not actually pay attention to what the rules say.

Really though, what is important to remember is that passive has nothing to do with how the character approaches a situation. Its all about how the DM and players approach it, in a metagame sense. A person not actively making a check is not making a check period. They are not doing it passively.

[Tanarii]

I'm really not sure how one could passively lock pick. Well, maybe something like a changing lock, or changing a lock so another couldn't pick it. It would be odd, to say the least.

Since passive checks don't have anything to do with being passive, instead requiring doing a task, I can see how you might be confused.

Similarly, I can also see how someone might be confused between the difference of doing a task again and again vs a single chance of success (ie an enemy actually being there to spot, or a trap to figure out) instead of the same task being multiple chances of success (ie picking the same lock repeatedly).

Edit: I'll add that its not clear by the rules that you CAN try to keep picking a lock after you fail once. At least, if there's a clear rule that you can keep trying checks after failing once, I've missed it or forgotten it.


Are passive checks passive? Yes, for you the player, but not for your character. Passive checks are passive for the players, as in they are checks made without the players having to do anything (by which we mean roll dice). They are not passive for the character though. Oh man, you just made me slap my head and go Doh!

Despite knowing that passive checks are not passive for the character I've never cottoned on to why they are called passive checks.

Of course it's because they're passive for the player!

Like I said: Doh! :smallsmile:

[RickAllison]

Since passive checks don't have anything to do with being passive, instead requiring doing a task, I can see how you might be confused.

Similarly, I can also see how someone might be confused between the difference of doing a task again and again vs a single chance of success (ie an enemy actually being there to spot, or a trap to figure out) instead of the same task being multiple chances of success (ie picking the same lock repeatedly).

Oh man, you just made me slap my head and go Doh!

Despite knowing that passive checks are not passive for the character I've never cottoned on to why they are called passive checks.

Of course it's because they're passive for the player!

Like I said: Doh! :smallsmile:

I understand they are not passive for the character (my DM found this the hard way when I pulled Observant with Expertise in both skills. At some point, he just stopped trying to hide traps from me), and that's why I provided the examples of how I could see the passive lockpicking checks being applied. Most of the time, those locks are either solved, or they are not, I don't see much of any reason why someone would be picking the lock again and again (unless he needed to unlock numerous locks, like in a prison) to use the average rather than taking 20.

Heck, I've shown this understanding earlier in the thread by suggesting pushing a cart through mines to be a passive Strength check :smalltongue:. I can tell you that pushing anything that heavy is not passive for the person doing it...

[Vogonjeltz]

If you aren't actively looking you don't get to use you passive perception at all. PHB adventuring & traveling rules, chapter 8. Similarly PHB chapter 7 rules on passive checks say they are for tasks being done repeatedly. Not for tasks not being actively done at all.

No, the adventure and traveling rules indicate that one must be distracted by another specific task to lose their passive score. If the characters aren't doing anything distracting, they would do the passive score regardless. And some classes (Ranger) continue to get their passive even when otherwise engaged in tasks.

But it is passive, not active searching. Active search has the possibility of a better outcome.

Chapter 7 says it can be used for the result of repeated checks (as it represents the average outcome that would be rolled), however the rules on hiding explicitly state that perception score is used in comparison to stealth check the when the subject is not actively looking for the danger. If they are actively looking, they get to roll their check (although the score would still be applicable).

Scores are used for both passive and repeated attempts where the average would need to be taken into account, checks are used for specific (and deliberate) attempts.


Passive perception is not how good you are at perceiving things when you are not actively looking. It is a representation of how good you are at perception, on average, which the DM can use to check if you are aware of something when you are actively looking, without giving away the fact that there is something to perceive.

The uses of these checks were already pointed out by Tanarii, and it is very clear cut. However, terminology itself makes people assume things and not actually pay attention to what the rules say.

This if factually incomplete, and thus in error.

Wisdom (Perception) scores are used in comparison to Dexterity (Stealth) checks to determine if the hidden creature/object is noticed by a character who is not actively looking for them. (Hide sidebar, ability check chapter). Wisdom (Perception) checks are used when the player declares that their character wishes to search.

[Tanarii]

No, the adventure and traveling rules indicate that one must be distracted by another specific task to lose their passive score. If the characters aren't doing anything distracting, they would do the passive score regardless.Right. Because they're paying attention to what is going on around them, as opposed to doing something else. That's a stretch to call that 'passive' use of Perception as opposed to actively using it over and over again. But if you want to call it that more power to you. It's still only applicable to Perception.


But it is passive, not active searching. Active search has the possibility of a better outcome.Not doing something else, and paying attention for danger, sounds pretty active to me, but I'll grant it's possible to squint at it and call it not completely active. I assume the latter is referring to, in combat, using your action to make a check on top of already paying attention to danger.


Chapter 7 says it can be used for the result of repeated checks (as it represents the average outcome that would be rolled), however the rules on hiding explicitly state that perception score is used in comparison to stealth check the when the subject is not actively looking for the danger. If they are actively looking, they get to roll their check (although the score would still be applicable).I agree that use of the Perception skill has some additional rules call outs on top of the general rules for passive skill use, in relation to the rules for hiding.


Scores are used for both passive and repeated attempts where the average would need to be taken into account, checks are used for specific (and deliberate) attempts.Not backed up by the rules. Only Passive a perception has any special rules for something that you can squint at and call a 'passive' use of passive perception. The other skills are only covered by two uses for passive: 1) doing something over and over again and it being the average result; 2) a secret check.

In both cases (and as was finally made clear to me unthread), 'passive' is on the part of the player.

[RickAllison]

Right. Because they're paying attention to what is going on around them, as opposed to doing something else. That's a stretch to call that 'passive' use of Perception as opposed to actively using it over and over again. But if you want to call it that more power to you. It's still only applicable to Perception.

Not doing something else, and paying attention for danger, sounds pretty active to me, but I'll grant it's possible to squint at it and call it not completely active. I assume the latter is referring to, in combat, using your action to make a check on top of already paying attention to danger.

I agree that use of the Perception skill has some additional rules call outs on top of the general rules for passive skill use, in relation to the rules for hiding.

Not backed up by the rules. Only Passive a perception has any special rules for something that you can squint at and call a 'passive' use of passive perception. The other skills are only covered by two uses for passive: 1) doing something over and over again and it being the average result; 2) a secret check.

In both cases (and as was finally made clear to me unthread), 'passive' is on the part of the player.

Perception could be seen as the specific ruling overriding the more general rule. Most skills cannot be so passively used, but the nature of Perception as detecting things by senses that are constantly going makes it work a little differently than other skills.

[jas61292]

Perception could be seen as the specific ruling overriding the more general rule. Most skills cannot be so passively used, but the nature of Perception as detecting things by senses that are constantly going makes it work a little differently than other skills.

I'd could agree with this. Unless you are unconscious, you are always perceiving. You could be distracted, and thus be at disadvantage (or -5 for passive), but you will never not be perceiving. Technically, I'd still call that actively perceiving, with the only passive thing being the player not rolling, but comparatively it is more passive than other skills.

[Tanarii]

Perception could be seen as the specific ruling overriding the more general rule. Most skills cannot be so passively used, but the nature of Perception as detecting things by senses that are constantly going makes it work a little differently than other skills.
I agree Passive Perception appears to be, at least in some ways, the exception that proves the rule.

But I'm not sure you can claim it's an exception. It meets the criteria of doing something repeatedly (actively perceiving the world around you for danger) and needing a secret check. The exception, if you want to call it that, is not requiring an action when used passively. A mechanical thing. That doesn't make it something the character is not actively trying to do, that just makes it not an action.

I don't think there is anything about perception that is inherently different from anything else. If a creature is truly passive, it's either dead or asleep. And it can't use Passive perception. Ditto for thinking (most Int checks). Your character is either paying attention to the world around her and thinking about it, which is actively perceiving and intuiting and investigating etc. Or she is actively doing something else instead, and either can't use perception (or takes a penalty). That's why I can't understand the idea that Passive Perception is 'passive' in any way. It's either actively being used, or something else is actively being used instead. Seems clear to me.

Now like I said, I can see some people trying to squint at "well I don't use an action" and call that passive use.

Edit: looks I said the same thing as jas61292 in about three times the words :)

[DanyBallon]

As a DM I like to use passive perception and investigation, to see if character would notice stuff as they pass by.

i.e.: noticing a small wind comming from an hidden hallway when the pass right next to it, without searching actively or stating that they pay attention. Or noticing that the walls in this room have the exact same brick pattern that the last room where they barely evade a deadly trap.

Though I still have hard time explaining how a character with the observant feat can have better chance noticing such details or hidden door when not actively looking, than when the focus on searching...

[Tanarii]

i.e.: noticing a small wind comming from an hidden hallway when the pass right next to it, without searching actively or stating that they pay attention. Or noticing that the walls in this room have the exact same brick pattern that the last room where they barely evade a deadly trap.I do something similar, but it's explicitly stated to the players. I tell them something like: as long as you don't tell me your character is doing something else, I'm going to assume he is actively paying attention to what's going around him / searching, allowing you to use Passive Perception and Investigation without a distracted penalty.

Since that's what the rules say anyway, sounds like we're on the same page. Except you call it "not paying attention" and I call it "automatically paying attention because you're not distracted by something or doing something else."


Though I still have hard time explaining how a character with the observant feat can have better chance noticing such details or hidden door when not actively looking, than when the focus on searching...It might help if you start by not looking at it as "not actively looking or focused on searching". But regardless, they don't. Either a rolled check is on top of an already failed passive check, in which case it's an increased chance of success over no additional check. Or it's the only check because a passive check didn't apply, in which case it's an increased chance of success over no additional check.

[Vogonjeltz]

Right. Because they're paying attention to what is going on around them, as opposed to doing something else. That's a stretch to call that 'passive' use of Perception as opposed to actively using it over and over again. But if you want to call it that more power to you. It's still only applicable to Perception.

There's a qualitative difference to having good situational awareness and being good at scanning a location on purpose.

The former is the ability to notice things in an environment without intentionally looking for them. You walk into a room, you notice there's a creak when you walk on the rug, hinting at the existence of a hidden trap door.

The latter is the ability to pick up on things when you're specifically looking. You walk into a room and decide to search it for hidden entrances, when searching you discover a trap door hidden under a rug.

Former is passive: You notice without choosing to notice, the latter is active you chose to try and notice something.

There is a fundamental difference there. The section on travel and adventure suggests that, while traveling, you can't engage in an activity that is all engrossing (i.e. specifically foraging or drawing maps) and still keep up the base level of awareness of events going on around you.


As a DM I like to use passive perception and investigation, to see if character would notice stuff as they pass by.

i.e.: noticing a small wind comming from an hidden hallway when the pass right next to it, without searching actively or stating that they pay attention. Or noticing that the walls in this room have the exact same brick pattern that the last room where they barely evade a deadly trap.

Though I still have hard time explaining how a character with the observant feat can have better chance noticing such details or hidden door when not actively looking, than when the focus on searching...

Think of it as your auto-pilot awareness where you pick up on details as you move, which is exactly how the Starter Set module treats it (perception scores are constantly being compared to the DCs for various traps or clues that help player characters to avoid ambushes, find hidden doors, or short cuts).

The DMG also mentions this on 103-104, and 121 (for traps)

[Tanarii]

There's a qualitative difference to having good situational awareness and being good at scanning a location on purpose.

The former is the ability to notice things in an environment without intentionally looking for them. You walk into a room, you notice there's a creak when you walk on the rug, hinting at the existence of a hidden trap door.

The latter is the ability to pick up on things when you're specifically looking. You walk into a room and decide to search it for hidden entrances, when searching you discover a trap door hidden under a rug.

Former is passive: You notice without choosing to notice, the latter is active you chose to try and notice something.No it isn't passive. The former is Perception. The latter is Investigation. And either can be passive skill use (ie the player doesn't have to roll anything) or active skill use (ie the player rolls something.

But in either case, your character is actively paying attention to the world around him, as opposed to actively doing something else (like tracking or mapping or reading a book), or being passive (sitting around dozing, or maybe just spacing out).


There is a fundamental difference there. The section on travel and adventure suggests that, while traveling, you can't engage in an activity that is all engrossing (i.e. specifically foraging or drawing maps) and still keep up the base level of awareness of events going on around you.Right. Because in that case, you're actively doing something else instead of actively being aware of the world around you.