Need advice for Feats for a Swashbuckler 1 / Rogue X [3.5]

[KillianHawkeye]

Hey there, I'm working on a character for a new campaign and need some advice for Feats. We're starting at level 1, and I'm going to start with Swashbuckler for the free Weapon Finesse and better BAB and HD, but I'll be focusing mostly on Rogue after that. The character will have high Dex and Int, average elsewhere, and my goal is to focus more on the damage dealing properties of the Rogue (although I will have the skill points to cover whatever is needed of me). I should also note that I might end up being the main melee fighter in the party, which puts a damper on my dreams for a flanking buddy and could mean I'll be getting in over my head quite frequently, although that's not 100% decided yet.

Things I am considering thus far:

Taking the Two-Weapon Fighting feats and possibly going into the Invisible Blade prestige class
Taking ambush feats that let you trade Sneak Attack dice to inflict debilitating effects
Focusing on a single-blade fencing style with a rapier and taking feats such as Combat Expertise, Einhander, etc.
Taking another two levels of Swashbuckler at some point in order to qualify for the Daring Outlaw feat (and getting that juicy Int to damage)
Taking feats that will improve my overall survivability
Anything that helps enable or increase the frequency of my Sneak Attack


What I would like is to hear the opinions of the great minds of the Playground: Which of these paths should I pursue, and what is the best way to pursue them? Or are there some other feats for this kind of character that I have overlooked? Is there another good prestige class I should aim for?

What I don't need are suggestions for how my character would be better off with magic or psionics or incarnum or what have you. Tome of Battle is off the table in my group as well, although most other first-party sources should be available to me. Whatever else I choose, I am aiming on having a completely non-magical skill set.

I believe that covers all the pertinent information, but if you have any questions you need only ask. And thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

Eugh, swashbuckler. So inefficient. Wouldn't it be better just to use fighter? At least then you get the hit-and-run variant for +2 initiative and the occasional Dex to damage. Plus the exoticist variant for exotic weapon proficiency, if you have access to Dragon Magazine.

Personally, I prefer putting the rogue level first to get more skill points, but I wouldn't fault you for putting a sturdier class first if you're starting at level 1, I guess.

Einhander is a trap so definitely don't do that.

[Telonius]

Is it at all possible for you to take a level of Rogue first? I know level 1 Rogue is a real drag, but those extra skill points will be gone forever if you don't take them at 1st.

Daring Outlaw is usually used on a mostly-Swashbuckler that has a couple of levels in Rogue, not the other way around. Rogue's reflex save is usually really high anyway, so there's a pretty small number of situations that Grace will actually help you. So if you're mostly a Rogue, you're spending a feat for +4 AC vs one opponent per combat. Considering how feat-starved most Rogue builds are, that's not a terrific deal.

[KillianHawkeye]

Is it at all possible for you to take a level of Rogue first? I know level 1 Rogue is a real drag, but those extra skill points will be gone forever if you don't take them at 1st.

Not really. I know I'm losing the extra skill points, but with a high Int I should still have enough for my needs. The main issue is that a Rogue cannot get Weapon Finesse at level 1, and I absolutely need it for a high Dex/low Str melee character. And as I mentioned, I'm planning to use Rogue less as a skill-monkey and more as a striker, so losing those skill points doesn't bother me too much.


putting a sturdier class first if you're starting at level 1
Also, this.


Wouldn't it be better just to use fighter? At least then you get the hit-and-run variant for +2 initiative and the occasional Dex to damage. Plus the exoticist variant for exotic weapon proficiency, if you have access to Dragon Magazine.

To be honest, I don't see much of a difference at level 1. Same HD, same BAB, same Saves. The Swashbuckler has better skills and skill points, and both classes will give me the feat I need for Weapon Finesse.

I'm not familiar with any of those ACFs you listed, and we don't use Dragon Magazine because we don't have it. I'm not particularly interested in exotic weapons regardless. And if anything, if I do end up taking more levels eventually, I'd rather get the Swashbuckler's Int to damage than just some other bonus feat.



Daring Outlaw is usually used on a mostly-Swashbuckler that has a couple of levels in Rogue, not the other way around. Rogue's reflex save is usually really high anyway, so there's a pretty small number of situations that Grace will actually help you. So if you're mostly a Rogue, you're spending a feat for +4 AC vs one opponent per combat. Considering how feat-starved most Rogue builds are, that's not a terrific deal.

That's actually a really good point! :smallsmile:


Einhander is a trap so definitely don't do that.

I understand it isn't very strong, it's more about style and panache. But you're probably right. So we've narrowed down the list a little, but I would definitely welcome more advice if anyone has any to give.

[Troacctid]

To be honest, I don't see much of a difference at level 1. Same HD, same BAB, same Saves. The Swashbuckler has better skills and skill points, and both classes will give me the feat I need for Weapon Finesse.

I'm not familiar with any of those ACFs you listed, and we don't use Dragon Magazine because we don't have it. I'm not particularly interested in exotic weapons regardless. And if anything, if I do end up taking more levels eventually, I'd rather get the Swashbuckler's Int to damage than just some other bonus feat.
I would definitely recommend against taking more swashbuckler levels. The class is more of a trap than Einhander.

The hit-and-run variant of the fighter loses heavy armor proficiency, but gains a +2 bonus to initiative checks and adds Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies. And of course, you still get your bonus feat. So it's a fine dip for a character with high Dex. As for exotic weapons, there's always an upgrade—for example, if you would normally use a rapier, an elven thinblade or quickblade rapier is a strict upgrade.

If it's just a matter of getting Weapon Finesse early, though, I'd actually recommend barbarian. I know, barbarian isn't typically though of as a dexterous and intelligent class, but hear me out. There are actually barbarian variants that do work great with a rogue: both the ferocity (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) variants are actually actively awesome on a Dex-based warrior. You get your 4 + Int skill points, +1 BAB for Weapon Finesse, and the biggest possible hit die. And you get fast movement, or one of the plethora of replacements for it, including such rogue-friendly options as:

+4 to Search and Spot checks (great for scouting and trapfinding)
+4 to Hide and Move Silently checks (great for stealth)
An additional +2 to attack rolls against flanked creatures (you're probably already flanking for sneak attacks, right?)
A climb speed equal to half your land speed (thieves, swashbucklers, and dungeon-delvers tend to do a lot of climbing)
Pounce (absolutely fantastic with two-weapon fighting)

[KillianHawkeye]

Does anyone else have any ideas for me? I'd certainly appreciate some additional viewpoints. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[daremetoidareyo]

einhander is better replaced by improved unarmed strike. At least then you can punch things and you threaten when you use ranged weaponry. IUS is better replaced with a gauntlet.

I think you should reconsider the 1st level being rogue and just use a crossbow, thus negating your strength for level 1.

Arcane Stunt from complete mage p. 32 allows you to use one of the following spells as a swift action a number of times per day equal to your int bonus:
blur, expeditious retreat, feather fall, jump, or spider climb.

Blur is easily the best option, but spider climb can be refluffed as parkore.

[KillianHawkeye]

einhander is better replaced by improved unarmed strike. At least then you can punch things and you threaten when you use ranged weaponry. IUS is better replaced with a gauntlet.

Yes, well, I had already crossed Einhander off of my list, so........


I think you should reconsider the 1st level being rogue and just use a crossbow, thus negating your strength for level 1.

Upon what do you base this recommendation? :smallconfused:


Arcane Stunt from complete mage p. 32 allows you to use one of the following spells as a swift action a number of times per day equal to your int bonus:
blur, expeditious retreat, feather fall, jump, or spider climb.

Blur is easily the best option, but spider climb can be refluffed as parkore.

Interesting. I will take a look at it.

[DEMON]

Does anyone else have any ideas for me? I'd certainly appreciate some additional viewpoints. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

IMO quite cheesy, but there's the best of all worlds build going with SA (Hit-n-Run) Figther 3 / Swashbuckler 3 and Feat Rogue 14 that will continue to advance your SA thanks to Daring Outlaw on a Feat Rogue.

[Aetis]

What is rest of your party's composition?

[KillianHawkeye]

What is rest of your party's composition?

Let's see, we're going to have one Cleric who will likely be focused on self-buffing for combat. We're going to have a Druid that will be mixing some arcane casting to eventually get into that Druid-centric theurge class. We're probably going to have some kind of Ranger or other ranged attacker. I think there will be some other kind of arcane caster, perhaps a Bard or a Beguiler (but I'm not certain). And there is a chance of having another player who might be something a bit more tanky like a Knight or Fighter, but that one is still iffy as far as I know.

As you can see, the party is pretty squishy and we're starting at level 1 (although the DM says we'll probably level up quickly). From what the player has said, I expect the Cleric to be more of a skirmisher, darting into the fray to deal damage and then retreating again, so there's a good chance that I'll be the only real front-line fighter. Unfortunately, I've been playing a lot of tanky, defensive characters recently, so I've chosen to go with Rogue for a more offense-oriented melee warrior. My goal will be to survive through sheer damage dealing potential. In other words, kill the other guys before they can kill me.

Right now, my build is looking something like Swashbuckler or Hit-and-Run Fighter at level 1, then four or five levels of Rogue, and then possibly into Invisible Blade. I'll have to weigh that last decision based on how things go up to that point. I'm still considering Two-Weapon Fighting with daggers if I can convince another party member to flank for me or find some other way to reliably get the sneak attack damage. So far most people have been saying what NOT to take or offering me alternative build advice rather than giving me suggestions for Feats to take.

[PaucaTerrorem]

The problem I'm seeing is that you want a tank build but want to use Invisible Blade. Invisible Blade is a trap. As much as I love the flavor of this class I have come to the realization that it's crap, unless you have a party that will optimize around it. Swashbuckler is only good for Daring Outlaw otherwise. And that build is a damage support build. And doesn't work against anything immune to Sneak Attack without ACF

[KillianHawkeye]

The problem I'm seeing is that you want a tank build but want to use Invisible Blade. Invisible Blade is a trap. As much as I love the flavor of this class I have come to the realization that it's crap, unless you have a party that will optimize around it. Swashbuckler is only good for Daring Outlaw otherwise. And that build is a damage support build. And doesn't work against anything immune to Sneak Attack without ACF

Okay, but what Feats do you suggest I take? :smallannoyed:

I appreciate whatever advice people give me, but my character concept isn't really up for debate. I realize that it may not be the most optimal character, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't play it. That also doesn't mean that I'm against doing some optimization within that character concept -- specifically, through Feat selection -- which is why this thread exists.


EDIT: And no, I don't want a tank build. I may get stuck tanking, but that isn't my goal. That's actually the opposite of my stated goal. :smallsigh:

Once again, people are telling me what NOT to do without suggesting an alternative. That isn't helpful.